Where? Lol. Many of them take less money for the perceived job security. ROFL @ you attacking teacher salaries. Public teachers generally do get paid more than ones who teach in private schools. Sure. But thats because private school teachers generally make pennies. Public school teachers start out at shockingly low wages as well considering what you pay for in education. We are talking like 25-30k a year starting out here in Michigan.
Yes, seeing as how my mother's a teacher in New Jersey, I just got my master's degree in mathematics education at Rutgers, am going for my PhD in education, and am pursuing a career in high school and college teaching.
I know plenty about the topic of teaching, including the politics and salaries.
Your irrelevant details notwithstanding, the facts don't support what you're saying. So you probably don't know "plenty" about the politics and salaries of public employees.
1. While throwing money at a problem doesn't automatically fix it, removing money from education is not the answer to fixing education either.
Governor Walker's horrendous education-destroying plan in Wisconsin has been an unexpected success in giving school districts first of all money saved that can be spent elsewhere and flexibility in hiring. Imagine that. The world did not end when the government gravy train had a few cars cut off the back.
2. Umm... public servants getting extravagant amounts of money? What planet are you from? The vaaaaast majority do not.
Public servants today generally get superior benefits and pension plans than do people in the private sector.
Sorry but it seems you don't know much about the subject.
Lol since when did educators start making tons of money?
There was a lot of news coverage about teacher salaries and benefits and those of other public workers last year, weren't you paying attention?
Haven't you heard? Teachers are the billionaires that stole from the poor and destroyed our economy.
I don't think you know what stealing means =/
Pensions to make up for lower salaries? Part of your salary going into your pension plan? ::shrugs:: Not the end of the world, in my opinion.
Seeing as how my mother's a teacher in New Jersey, I just got my master's degree in mathematics education at Rutgers (in New Jersey), am going for my PhD in education at Rutgers, and am pursuing a career in high school and college teaching, and that I live in New Jersey, I can safely say that I know plenty about the topic of education, including the politics and salaries in New Jersey.
Yeah i would like to see Deep actually show numbers where teachers are getting insane salaries. Anyone going into teacher education knows you are not in it for the money.
1. While throwing money at a problem doesn't automatically fix it, removing money from education is not the answer to fixing education either.
Governor Walker's horrendous education-destroying plan in Wisconsin has been an unexpected success in giving school districts first of all money saved that can be spent elsewhere and flexibility in hiring. Imagine that. The world did not end when the government gravy train had a few cars cut off the back.
A good deal of the criticism Walker was getting was for targeting union rights.
2. Umm... public servants getting extravagant amounts of money? What planet are you from? The vaaaaast majority do not.
Public servants today generally get superior benefits and pension plans than do people in the private sector.
Sorry but it seems you don't know much about the subject.
As recently shown in a NY Times or WaPo article, such studies are to be taken very cautiously because they often compare apples and oranges. Regardless, even if public servants did get superior benefits and pension plans than people in the private sector, it's still certainly not "extravagant amounts of money".
Where? Lol. Many of them take less money for the perceived job security. ROFL @ you attacking teacher salaries. Public teachers generally do get paid more than ones who teach in private schools. Sure. But thats because private school teachers generally make pennies. Public school teachers start out at shockingly low wages as well considering what you pay for in education. We are talking like 25-30k a year starting out here in Michigan.
Yes, seeing as how my mother's a teacher in New Jersey, I just got my master's degree in mathematics education at Rutgers, am going for my PhD in education, and am pursuing a career in high school and college teaching.
I know plenty about the topic of teaching, including the politics and salaries.
Your irrelevant details notwithstanding, the facts don't support what you're saying. So you probably don't know "plenty" about the politics and salaries of public employees.
Again your links disprove nothing about the points that have been made. Teachers are not making out like bandits. Do you have any proof where teacher salaries are out of control?
1. While throwing money at a problem doesn't automatically fix it, removing money from education is not the answer to fixing education either.
Governor Walker's horrendous education-destroying plan in Wisconsin has been an unexpected success in giving school districts first of all money saved that can be spent elsewhere and flexibility in hiring. Imagine that. The world did not end when the government gravy train had a few cars cut off the back.
2. Umm... public servants getting extravagant amounts of money? What planet are you from? The vaaaaast majority do not.
Public servants today generally get superior benefits and pension plans than do people in the private sector.
Sorry but it seems you don't know much about the subject.
Lol since when did educators start making tons of money?
There was a lot of news coverage about teacher salaries and benefits and those of other public workers last year, weren't you paying attention?
Haven't you heard? Teachers are the billionaires that stole from the poor and destroyed our economy.
I don't think you know what stealing means =/
Pensions to make up for lower salaries? Part of your salary going into your pension plan? ::shrugs:: Not the end of the world, in my opinion.
Seeing as how my mother's a teacher in New Jersey, I just got my master's degree in mathematics education at Rutgers (in New Jersey), am going for my PhD in education at Rutgers, and am pursuing a career in high school and college teaching, and that I live in New Jersey, I can safely say that I know plenty about the topic of education, including the politics and salaries in New Jersey.
Yeah i would like to see Deep actually show numbers where teachers are getting insane salaries. Anyone going into teacher education knows you are not in it for the money.
There are a very small number of teachers who get paid relatively high (like 100K per year), but these teachers almost always have PhDs and/ or have been teaching for an incredibly long period of time. In other words, they're well-worth their salaries.
I wish he'd also back up his statements. The burden of proof is certainly on him.
And I certainly agree with you that teachers don't go into the profession for the money!
Lol, people are seriously trying to argue teacher's salaries? Anyone who knows anything about that job knows that teachers are severely underpaid in most cases...
Where? Lol. Many of them take less money for the perceived job security. ROFL @ you attacking teacher salaries. Public teachers generally do get paid more than ones who teach in private schools. Sure. But thats because private school teachers generally make pennies. Public school teachers start out at shockingly low wages as well considering what you pay for in education. We are talking like 25-30k a year starting out here in Michigan.
Yes, seeing as how my mother's a teacher in New Jersey, I just got my master's degree in mathematics education at Rutgers, am going for my PhD in education, and am pursuing a career in high school and college teaching.
I know plenty about the topic of teaching, including the politics and salaries.
Your irrelevant details notwithstanding, the facts don't support what you're saying. So you probably don't know "plenty" about the politics and salaries of public employees.
You mean the facts that you have yet to show?
I'd love to see them.
On September 24 2011 10:34 Josealtron wrote: Lol, people are seriously trying to argue teacher's salaries? Anyone who knows anything about that job knows that teachers are severely underpaid in most cases...
Well DeepElemBlues insists that the facts prove that they make extravagant amounts of money.
Where? Lol. Many of them take less money for the perceived job security. ROFL @ you attacking teacher salaries. Public teachers generally do get paid more than ones who teach in private schools. Sure. But thats because private school teachers generally make pennies. Public school teachers start out at shockingly low wages as well considering what you pay for in education. We are talking like 25-30k a year starting out here in Michigan.
Yes, seeing as how my mother's a teacher in New Jersey, I just got my master's degree in mathematics education at Rutgers, am going for my PhD in education, and am pursuing a career in high school and college teaching.
I know plenty about the topic of teaching, including the politics and salaries.
Your irrelevant details notwithstanding, the facts don't support what you're saying. So you probably don't know "plenty" about the politics and salaries of public employees.
The second link has nothing to do with michigan it just has one sentence about it. The first link says the cost of insuring state workers has gone up since 2002 even with less workers. Well no fucking shit it has with the rising cost of healthcare and insurance premiums. The state workers do get good insurance plans, I didn't deny that (although theres been talk of years of concessions and worse plans on the horrizons, much like what has happened to teachers and everyone else). They make up for that with taking lower wages. Not to mention all those people are older and grandfathered in to shit. There arent any pension plans for anyone who hasnt been there for like 10+ years now. Again, instead of trying to fix the fucking problem we are just attacking people who have it "good" while we all get a little less. Its the typical crabs in a bucket mentality. People are literally fighting over scraps while these insurance companies and the health industry is raking in the money.
You are way out of touch with teacher salaries. I don't know where the hell you are getting your info but teachers make shit until they have graduate degrees and have been teaching for like 10+ years.
I feel like the way the union/government protects teachers can very well justify the statement that some teachers are extravagantly paid.
In the high school I went too more teachers have been fired or pushed out of their jobs for disagreeing with the management, than for lousy educational practices, and actual lack of merit. and this is a specialized high school in New York City which is supposed to have high standards (top 20 school in US when I was a senior there.) God knows what's happening in other public schools.
On September 24 2011 11:13 Kiarip wrote: I feel like the way the union/government protects teachers can very well justify the statement that some teachers are extravagantly paid.
In the high school I went too more teachers have been fired or pushed out of their jobs for disagreeing with the management, than for lousy educational practices, and actual lack of merit. and this is a specialized high school in New York City which is supposed to have high standards (top 20 school in US when I was a senior there.) God knows what's happening in other public schools.
I definitely agree that this is an issue (although not one that is particularly easy to solve)... but teacher accountability is not the same as teacher salary.
On September 24 2011 11:13 Kiarip wrote: I feel like the way the union/government protects teachers can very well justify the statement that some teachers are extravagantly paid.
In the high school I went too more teachers have been fired or pushed out of their jobs for disagreeing with the management, than for lousy educational practices, and actual lack of merit. and this is a specialized high school in New York City which is supposed to have high standards (top 20 school in US when I was a senior there.) God knows what's happening in other public schools.
I definitely agree that this is an issue (although not one that is particularly easy to solve)... but teacher accountability is not the same as teacher salary.
but there's also the issue of seniority. If you teach for a long time your salary keeps rising, and if it's hard to lose your job, the efficiency of money spent on teacher wages will have an incentive to decline.
On September 24 2011 11:13 Kiarip wrote: I feel like the way the union/government protects teachers can very well justify the statement that some teachers are extravagantly paid.
In the high school I went too more teachers have been fired or pushed out of their jobs for disagreeing with the management, than for lousy educational practices, and actual lack of merit. and this is a specialized high school in New York City which is supposed to have high standards (top 20 school in US when I was a senior there.) God knows what's happening in other public schools.
I definitely agree that this is an issue (although not one that is particularly easy to solve)... but teacher accountability is not the same as teacher salary.
but there's also the issue of seniority. If you teach for a long time your salary keeps rising, and if it's hard to lose your job, the efficiency of money spent on teacher wages will have an incentive to decline.
I think that's a good point. That's most likely because- while there's certainly not a perfect correlation between how long you've been teaching and how well you can teach (in fact, many new teachers have many great ideas, and there are certainly some old teachers who are way past their prime)- the amount of experience and insight you gain throughout your years as a teacher is assumed to make you a better educator.
Unfortunately, there isn't a better standard at the moment for how teachers should be getting paid. Level of education and level of experience is about as good as can be done at the moment. I don't want to completely derail the thread and go off on an education tangent, but let me just say that there are countless things that could make a teacher "good" (or "great"), not too many of them are quantifiable or objective (which means it's hard to fairly grade teachers), and assessments that certainly don't work include looking at students or test scores to base teacher salary.
There are indeed plenty of problems in American education. Some are easily recognizable; some have somewhat clear solutions, too. Others... not so much. That's my opinion, any way. (And for what it's worth... we are doing a lot right. That gets overlooked quite frequently!)
On September 24 2011 11:13 Kiarip wrote: I feel like the way the union/government protects teachers can very well justify the statement that some teachers are extravagantly paid.
In the high school I went too more teachers have been fired or pushed out of their jobs for disagreeing with the management, than for lousy educational practices, and actual lack of merit. and this is a specialized high school in New York City which is supposed to have high standards (top 20 school in US when I was a senior there.) God knows what's happening in other public schools.
I definitely agree that this is an issue (although not one that is particularly easy to solve)... but teacher accountability is not the same as teacher salary.
but there's also the issue of seniority. If you teach for a long time your salary keeps rising, and if it's hard to lose your job, the efficiency of money spent on teacher wages will have an incentive to decline.
TBH you have a point as in experienced teachers may not be better teachers. However, the average salary of experienced teachers still isn't extraordinarily high. Also, in most jobs you do get paid more for experience. However, the biggest problem maybe generalizing most teachers as bad or inefficient or overpaid etc.
Also, if you read the article i have linked. It suggests that we may be losing good teachers because the pay isn't high enough. Teachers are being asked to do more now then ever before and the pay hasn't kept up.
On September 24 2011 11:13 Kiarip wrote: I feel like the way the union/government protects teachers can very well justify the statement that some teachers are extravagantly paid.
In the high school I went too more teachers have been fired or pushed out of their jobs for disagreeing with the management, than for lousy educational practices, and actual lack of merit. and this is a specialized high school in New York City which is supposed to have high standards (top 20 school in US when I was a senior there.) God knows what's happening in other public schools.
I definitely agree that this is an issue (although not one that is particularly easy to solve)... but teacher accountability is not the same as teacher salary.
but there's also the issue of seniority. If you teach for a long time your salary keeps rising, and if it's hard to lose your job, the efficiency of money spent on teacher wages will have an incentive to decline.
I think that's a good point. That's most likely because- while there's certainly not a perfect correlation between how long you've been teaching and how well you can teach (in fact, many new teachers have many great ideas, and there are certainly some old teachers who are way past their prime)- the amount of experience and insight you gain throughout your years as a teacher is assumed to make you a better educator.
Unfortunately, there isn't a better standard at the moment for how teachers should be getting paid. Level of education and level of experience is about as good as can be done at the moment. I don't want to completely derail the thread and go off on an education tangent, but let me just say that there are countless things that could make a teacher "good" (or "great"), not too many of them are quantifiable or objective (which means it's hard to fairly grade teachers), and assessments that certainly don't work include looking at students or test scores to base teacher salary.
There are indeed plenty of problems in American education. Some are easily recognizable; some have somewhat clear solutions, too. Others... not so much. That's my opinion, any way. (And for what it's worth... we are doing a lot right. That gets overlooked quite frequently!)
give the parents more power to decide who's right for their kids? seems reasonable
TBH you have a point as in experienced teachers may not be better teachers. However, the average salary of experienced teachers still isn't extraordinarily high. Also, in most jobs you do get paid more for experience. However, the biggest problem maybe generalizing most teachers as bad or inefficient or overpaid etc.
Also, if you read the article i have linked. It suggests that we may be losing good teachers because the pay isn't high enough. Teachers are being asked to do more now then ever before and the pay hasn't kept up.
Yes, but the teacher's salary appreciates consistently regardless of results, and if you combine it with how hard it is to get a bad teacher replaced... it's not the best situation
On September 24 2011 11:13 Kiarip wrote: I feel like the way the union/government protects teachers can very well justify the statement that some teachers are extravagantly paid.
In the high school I went too more teachers have been fired or pushed out of their jobs for disagreeing with the management, than for lousy educational practices, and actual lack of merit. and this is a specialized high school in New York City which is supposed to have high standards (top 20 school in US when I was a senior there.) God knows what's happening in other public schools.
I definitely agree that this is an issue (although not one that is particularly easy to solve)... but teacher accountability is not the same as teacher salary.
but there's also the issue of seniority. If you teach for a long time your salary keeps rising, and if it's hard to lose your job, the efficiency of money spent on teacher wages will have an incentive to decline.
I think that's a good point. That's most likely because- while there's certainly not a perfect correlation between how long you've been teaching and how well you can teach (in fact, many new teachers have many great ideas, and there are certainly some old teachers who are way past their prime)- the amount of experience and insight you gain throughout your years as a teacher is assumed to make you a better educator.
Unfortunately, there isn't a better standard at the moment for how teachers should be getting paid. Level of education and level of experience is about as good as can be done at the moment. I don't want to completely derail the thread and go off on an education tangent, but let me just say that there are countless things that could make a teacher "good" (or "great"), not too many of them are quantifiable or objective (which means it's hard to fairly grade teachers), and assessments that certainly don't work include looking at students or test scores to base teacher salary.
There are indeed plenty of problems in American education. Some are easily recognizable; some have somewhat clear solutions, too. Others... not so much. That's my opinion, any way. (And for what it's worth... we are doing a lot right. That gets overlooked quite frequently!)
give the parents more power to decide who's right for their kids? seems reasonable
The problem isn't always that easy. Parents have been known to make some terrible decisions in the past. Ideally you have parents who make well informed decisions but it is not always the case. Part of the reason the education system still has glaring issues is because it isn't an easy fix.
Edit: To the part about replacing teachers. Yes in certain cases where unions have a strong hold it is extremely hard to get rid of bad teachers. Even most teachers would agree with that. However, that isn't the case everywhere. Trust me in many places it is quite easy to replace teachers whether good or bad.
The important part to note is comparing apples to apples, particularly education level.
I am wondering though, about the arguments about executive pay several pages back. If they deserved all that money, because they are worth it, are teachers really worth that much less? I mean, these are the people shaping future generations. How valuable are teachers to society? I suspect we will have very different answers.
The important part to note is comparing apples to apples, particularly education level.
I am wondering though, about the arguments about executive pay several pages back. If they deserved all that money, because they are worth it, are teachers really worth that much less? I mean, these are the people shaping future generations. How valuable are teachers to society? I suspect we will have very different answers.
To society? Hell, I figure doctors and teachers should be the top two most important jobs, right? Keep you alive and keep you educated... and those are jobs that will always be needed, regardless of the economic situation!
Well the thing to keep in mind is that a school isn't actually a business. Teachers don't sell products. They can't say, "Look, I turned out X successful things in a year, so I'm worth Y amount of dollars, and therefore I'm also objectively better than the teacher next door, because she didn't turn out as many things as I did." They don't generate their own profit. Their evaluations aren't even quantifiable, and as such it's incredibly hard to rate teachers.
After all, what makes a *good* teacher?
A. Is it experience? B. Is it energy and enthusiasm? C. Is it the ability to engage students in their subject, to make kids want to learn? D. Is it the teacher who teaches the highest classes? The lowest classes? The worst-behaved classes? E. Is it the teacher who teaches to the curriculum? Who teaches to the test? F. Is it the teacher who builds relationships with students? G. Is it the teacher who can adapt his pedagogy to fit in new information? H. Is it the teacher who spends extra hours a week perfecting his lessons? I. Is it the teacher who teaches his students respect and responsibility? J. Is it the teacher who has the most students learn the most curriculum material? The most standardized test material? K. Is it the teacher who teaches kids to be creative thinkers and problem solvers?
Where is choice L: All of the above? Possibly any combination of the above?
And do note that hardly any of those can be properly assessed. The best we can do is have administrators sit in on classrooms and write if things are running smoothly... but believe it or not, they really do have better things to do. That's why teachers generally get observed a couple of times a year. And as long as they don't suck, they pass. Woo hoo.
But who can you blame? It's really hard to blame anyone in particular, it seems. There just doesn't exist quantifiable, objective measures to assess teachers, so you can't really come up with a salary scale.
The important part to note is comparing apples to apples, particularly education level.
I am wondering though, about the arguments about executive pay several pages back. If they deserved all that money, because they are worth it, are teachers really worth that much less? I mean, these are the people shaping future generations. How valuable are teachers to society? I suspect we will have very different answers.
To society? Hell, I figure doctors and teachers should be the top two most important jobs, right? Keep you alive and keep you educated... and those are jobs that will always be needed, regardless of the economic situation!
Well the thing to keep in mind is that a school isn't actually a business. Teachers don't sell products. They can't say, "Look, I turned out X successful things in a year, so I'm worth Y amount of dollars, and therefore I'm also objectively better than the teacher next door, because she didn't turn out as many things as I did." They don't generate their own profit. Their evaluations aren't even quantifiable, and as such it's incredibly hard to rate teachers.
After all, what makes a *good* teacher?
A. Is it experience? B. Is it energy and enthusiasm? C. Is it the ability to engage students in their subject, to make kids want to learn? D. Is it the teacher who teaches the highest classes? The lowest classes? The worst-behaved classes? E. Is it the teacher who teaches to the curriculum? Who teaches to the test? F. Is it the teacher who builds relationships with students? G. Is it the teacher who can adapt his pedagogy to fit in new information? H. Is it the teacher who spends extra hours a week perfecting his lessons? I. Is it the teacher who teaches his students respect and responsibility? J. Is it the teacher who has the most students learn the most curriculum material? The most standardized test material? K. Is it the teacher who teaches kids to be creative thinkers and problem solvers?
Where is choice L: All of the above? Possibly any combination of the above?
And do note that hardly any of those can be properly assessed. The best we can do is have administrators sit in on classrooms and write if things are running smoothly... but believe it or not, they really do have better things to do. That's why teachers generally get observed a couple of times a year. And as long as they don't suck, they pass. Woo hoo.
But who can you blame? It's really hard to blame anyone in particular, it seems. There just doesn't exist quantifiable, objective measures to assess teachers, so you can't really come up with a salary scale.
But they're still undeniably invaluable.
I very much agree with this. What constitutes a master teacher is rather unquantifiable, but when you see it, you can recognize it. Standardized testing has it's uses (maybe), but it cannot possibly 'hold teacher's accountable.' One of the biggest issues is simply class composition as well as what sort of school are you in. Suburb school with affluent parents? You're pushing your students into enriched content and straight A's. Your school developed a reputation for having very good support for special needs students? You'll have a class composition of a wide spectrum of designated learning disabilities and writing up individual learning plans- standardized testing is NOT going to capture what you're accomplishing. Working at an inner city? You're successful providing a safe place for the students, providing breakfast and lunch programs, hopefully you teach something, but your true success is helping them not get swept up into gangs and drugs.
And even with a principal in the class, the old battle-axes will be on best behaviour and will go back to same old when they leave. Teacher's value autonomy, but what makes a good teacher is hard to quantify and therefore it is hard to get rid of the incompetent ones. It does happen though. Gross incompetence can get a person to lose their license, but there's a lot that will fly under the radar.
As for whether teacher's get paid too much... What teacher's make:
EPT
