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On May 20 2013 23:03 Gorsameth wrote:
If the report mentions nothing about the workings tho its pretty useless. We already knows what it does as a black box. What is needed for people to believe this is the miracle power they say it is would be the inner workings.
Proof isnt that big of a word. Say how it works so that independent sources can test it. Looking at it and saying from the outside what it does has been done before.
It's something using Nickel and I don't know what else. They run electricity through it and it gets hot. There should be nothing interesting happening. If it is real, no one has an explanation at the moment. No one knows how it works. There is no theory to explain it. It's said to cause more heat than makes sense through chemistry. Nuclear reactions could do this, but there's no radioactive radiation.
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On May 20 2013 23:22 Ropid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 23:03 Gorsameth wrote:
If the report mentions nothing about the workings tho its pretty useless. We already knows what it does as a black box. What is needed for people to believe this is the miracle power they say it is would be the inner workings.
Proof isnt that big of a word. Say how it works so that independent sources can test it. Looking at it and saying from the outside what it does has been done before. It's something using Nickel and I don't know what else. They run electricity through it and it gets hot. There should be nothing interesting happening. If it is real, no one has an explanation at the moment. No one knows how it works. There is no theory to explain it. It's said to cause more heat than makes sense through chemistry. Nuclear reactions could do this, but there's no radioactive radiation.
And thats why black box testing doesnt do anything. We know there is more energy coming out then gos in. Something doesnt add up.
Either its a big scientific deal, which can be proven being showing how the internals work, or its a hoax.
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It doesnt really appear to be an actual report, as they are not allowed knowledge of what's inside they have only made a 'brief' test to see if it actually produces energy or not.
As for the reason of not having a patent for the device, if it works it's not unlikely that its actually quite a "simple" design where the materials involved are what actually matters.
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Oh, well there you go  .
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They have a bit weird and maybe not that reliable way of measuring the energy output of the device (mostly heat)
Isnt there a much easier and more reliable way to measure this? for example placing the device in an isolated bucket of water and then measure how much the water heats up, you can then easily calculate the heat output of the device, knowing the heat characteristics of water.
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It would provide a rather solid result but you'd need to know how the device reacts to being submerged in water, along with at least a decent estimation regarding how much heat you would generate over a long period of time (to use the suitable amount of water). When testing something entirely unknown such a solution would (probably) add too many variables.
Edit: The heating and cooling curves would also be a lot harder to calculate.
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On May 20 2013 23:26 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 23:22 Ropid wrote:On May 20 2013 23:03 Gorsameth wrote:
If the report mentions nothing about the workings tho its pretty useless. We already knows what it does as a black box. What is needed for people to believe this is the miracle power they say it is would be the inner workings.
Proof isnt that big of a word. Say how it works so that independent sources can test it. Looking at it and saying from the outside what it does has been done before. It's something using Nickel and I don't know what else. They run electricity through it and it gets hot. There should be nothing interesting happening. If it is real, no one has an explanation at the moment. No one knows how it works. There is no theory to explain it. It's said to cause more heat than makes sense through chemistry. Nuclear reactions could do this, but there's no radioactive radiation. And thats why black box testing doesnt do anything. We know there is more energy coming out then gos in. Something doesnt add up. Either its a big scientific deal, which can be proven being showing how the internals work, or its a hoax.
While this is generally true, in this case its still significant. This can be found at the end of the reports in their conclusions:
"Even from the standpoint of a “blind” evaluation of volumetric energy density, if we consider the whole volume of the reactor core and the most conservative figures on energy production, we still get a value of (7.93 ± 0.8) 10^2 MJ/Liter that is one order of magnitude higher than any conventional source.
Lastly, it must be remarked that both tests were terminated by a deliberate shut down of the reactor, not by fuel exhaustion; thus, the energy densities that were measured should be considered as lower limits of real values.
The March test is to be considered an improvement over the one performed in December, in that various problems encountered in the first experiment were addressed and solved in the second one. In the next test experiment which is expected to start in the summer of 2013, and will last about six months, a long term performance of the E-Cat HT2 will be tested. This test will be crucial for further attempts to unveil the origin of the heat phenomenon observed so far."
A hoax generating more energy per volume than what is currently known in chemistry is rather complicated  . All in all though, I guess we'll know more after the longterm testing is completed.
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oh great, its this thread again.
User was warned for this post
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On May 20 2013 23:19 Deleuze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 22:42 Neneu wrote:On May 20 2013 22:31 Deleuze wrote:On May 20 2013 22:27 Neneu wrote:I love their references :D Using wikipedia? Tsk tsk.. Yeah that is quite funny - but it's cos the image copyright is wiki commons though. That is okey when you are writing a bachelor thesis, when you're writing an article intended for publishing however, it is not. Besides, the figure they are linking to contains and are used for informative data. Bad, bad, bad. And only 9 references? Really? Edit: And it's a shame to ruin an interesting article like that, because it is so simple to fix. This isn't the case. I work in a university and am currently having my own work published in a journal, the images I am using I have requested to reproduce in my work in perpetuity from the copyright holder this is a big fuss and can involve fees - why go to the bother when there is a free public domain image that serves your purpose. I make no judgements about the content of the report. Can anyone tell me whether this report has been subject to peer-review? And indeed under what circumstances this was published? This will tell us most about the reliability of it's findings.
LOL no it's not peer-review. This guy has no accredited credentials and a history as a convicted scam artist as Popular Science called it. Peer-review Journals have looked in to this, it has all the makings of a scam. But Rossi has been smart and hasn't let anyone see what's inside his box, so you can't 100% prove it's a scam. But you would be silly to believe it.
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-10/andrea-rossis-black-box
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Edit: just kidding
Until the mechanism has been revealed, I will continue to doubt this device. Yikes.
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This crap again?
The results are consistent with heat from radioactive decay.
The only test for radioactive decay was done by a 'David Bianchini' who is both not tenured, and has been working with Rossi since the beginning.
The test for decay only measured the levels of gamma radiation (and only high energy gamma >200kev ) OUTSIDE of the device. Isotopic signatures of the device itself were not measured. Neutron emissions were NOT measured. I can't emphasize this enough, but I'll try: NEUTRON EMISSIONS WERE NOT MEASURED. Low energy gamma radiation <200kev was not measured. I'll emphasize this: LOW ENERGY GAMMA RADIATION WAS NOT MEASURED.
Anyone who knows anything about radioactive decay will tell you that this is an incredible glaring omission, as the most plausible explanation for excess heat is from radioactive decay, from a shielded isotope within the device itself.
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On May 21 2013 00:57 caradoc wrote:
This crap again?
The results are consistent with heat from radioactive decay.
The only test for radioactive decay was done by a 'David Bianchini' who is both not tenured, and has been working with Rossi since the beginning.
The test for decay only measured the levels of gamma radiation OUTSIDE of the device. Isotopic signatures of the device itself were not measured. Neutron emissions were NOT measured. I can't emphasize this enough, but I'll try: NEUTRON EMISSIONS WERE NOT MEASURED.
Anyone who knows anything about radioactive decay will tell you that this is an incredible glaring omission, as the most plausible explanation for excess heat is from radioactive decay via neutron emissions, from a shielded isotope within the device itself.
So Rossi has a big brick of some radioactive substance in the core of his box?
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On May 20 2013 23:03 Gorsameth wrote:
If the report mentions nothing about the workings tho its pretty useless. We already knows what it does as a black box. What is needed for people to believe this is the miracle power they say it is would be the inner workings.
Nonsense. How it works is (for the purposes of making money) completely irrelevant. The question is whether it actually does work.
And by "work", I mean:
1: Produces more energy than it consumes directly. This should be easy to detect.
2: Produces more energy that it takes to fuel. What exactly do you have to put into it to sustain the reaction? How pure do the fuels have to be? You should be able to detect if the "fuel" claimed is actually necessary without breaking the black box, simply by swapping another kind of "fuel" that has similar enough properties.
3: Produces more energy than it takes to run (maintenance costs and such). When do these things End of Life? What do you have to do to replace elements? How often does it break down? Etc.
I don't care if it's magic going on in there. So long as the magic works and has favorable answers to the above questions, it could run on a contract with Satan for all I care.
The problem isn't the "black box". It's that they won't let people study the black box. Science knows how to work with an unknown process. But he won't let science actually work with it. We don't need to break it open, but it does need to be studied under arbitrary conditions.
Personally, I want to see peer review on this stuff. Self-published info means nothing to me. And the fact that everything's still secret after so long (the patent process is not that slow) continues to make the entire endeavor suspect.
Along with the fact that Rossi's a known charlatan.
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On May 21 2013 00:59 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 00:57 caradoc wrote:
This crap again?
The results are consistent with heat from radioactive decay.
The only test for radioactive decay was done by a 'David Bianchini' who is both not tenured, and has been working with Rossi since the beginning.
The test for decay only measured the levels of gamma radiation OUTSIDE of the device. Isotopic signatures of the device itself were not measured. Neutron emissions were NOT measured. I can't emphasize this enough, but I'll try: NEUTRON EMISSIONS WERE NOT MEASURED.
Anyone who knows anything about radioactive decay will tell you that this is an incredible glaring omission, as the most plausible explanation for excess heat is from radioactive decay via neutron emissions, from a shielded isotope within the device itself. So Rossi has a big brick of some radioactive substance in the core of his box?
Probably a small brick, shielded with lead or something.
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On May 21 2013 01:01 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 23:03 Gorsameth wrote:
If the report mentions nothing about the workings tho its pretty useless. We already knows what it does as a black box. What is needed for people to believe this is the miracle power they say it is would be the inner workings. Nonsense. How it works is (for the purposes of making money) completely irrelevant. The question is whether it actually does work. And by "work", I mean: 1: Produces more energy than it consumes directly. This should be easy to detect. 2: Produces more energy that it takes to fuel. What exactly do you have to put into it to sustain the reaction? How pure do the fuels have to be? You should be able to detect if the "fuel" claimed is actually necessary without breaking the black box, simply by swapping another kind of "fuel" that has similar enough properties. 3: Produces more energy than it takes to run (maintenance costs and such). When do these things End of Life? What do you have to do to replace elements? How often does it break down? Etc.
I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to say here. I'm no physicist, far from it, but it is my understanding that one of the governing laws of this universe is that energy cannot be created out of nothing. In other words, there is no device which produces more energy than it consumes. All that these devices do is take energy from one form and convert it into another, more useful form (which, as far as I know, is done with less than 100% efficiency in all cases).
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I'm guessing this was rejected by the patent offices?
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On May 20 2013 21:59 ElMeanYo wrote:I've been holding off this past year on posting in this thread until some legitimately big news surfaced on whether Rossi's eCat was real. Today is that day. The real litmus test for the eCat technology was for the device to be independently reviewed by a reliable 3rd party. A lot has happened in the past 6 months regarding this very subject but I wanted to hold off until the actual 3rd party report was released. A collection of noted Italian and Swedish scientists were given a working eCat by Rossi last December. This group was given full access to a device of their own for testing in any way they saw fit. Some of the participants in the testing were Giuseppe Levi and Evelyn Foschi of Bologna University, Bologna Italy, and Swedish scientists Torbjörn Hartman, Bo Höistad, Roland Pettersson and Lars Tegnér Uppsala University, Uppsala, Sweden, and Hanno Essén Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden. Without further ado, here is a link to the report: http://ecat.com/files/Indication-of-anomalous-heat-energy-production-in-a-reactor-device.pdfTo summarize, the eCat was tested over a period from December to March of this year. The results obtained indicate that energy was produced in decidedly higher quantities than what may be gained from any conventional source, with energy densities somewhere between chemical and nuclear. If you want to catch up on the latest news on the eCat saga, check out the facebook group here: https://www.facebook.com/EnergyCatalyzer?hc_location=stream
Its the same bullshit as always, No one know what it actually does, AKA the black box. Nothing about this can be viewed as scientific in any shape or form. The E-cat is still a machine that appears to operate on magic.
EDIT: A legit scientific peer-review from journals and organizations, such as scientific publications, conferences and universities only peer-review that which they can understand and examine, and as long as Rossi gives them a "Black Box", as in they won't be allowed to see what is happening, then there won't be a peer-review and any claim of this from it's author or it's associates is therefor bullshit.
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Every time this thread pops up I scan it to see if anything interesting has happened.....Nope just more smoke and mirrors from the "inventor". How can it possibly take this long to reveal something that would be this momentous to the world? The longer it takes for him to reveal the more skeptical I get.
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EPT
