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On July 24 2011 04:20 horste wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 04:12 No_Roo wrote:On July 24 2011 03:59 horste wrote:After seeing the "do you love glorious USA debt" thread, and seeing that it's complete troll bait, I decided to go ahead and post a proper thread on the issue. This question has been bugging me for a long time. How exactly do Americans look at their own debt, and compare it to the current crisis in Europe? From what I've read and seen in interviews, the news,etc. I always get the feeling that the general US spokesperson shrugs at the US debt, and then redirects attention to the EU (eg Greece). An example that comes to my mind is Timothy Geitner that urged the EU to take firm actions in order to dam the financial crisis, because otherwise it would have a detrimental effect on the world economy. I don't mean to talk crap, but this to me looked very arrogant for a person that's the financial supervisor for a country that has an insane amount of debt and will basicly stop functioning by august 2nd. p.s. I would really like it if this didn't turn into a republican vs democratic government debate  If I need to do things in order to make this a proper thread, please say so, it's the first time I posted anything (I'd link newspapers, but I doubt lots of people here can read dutch ^^ ) Most of the americans on TL are actually the people in the process of inheriting the debt, as such we're a little cranky about being stuck with the bill. I understand that the general person on TL has nothing to do with the debt, but it's still easier for people like you to give an opinion on how "average joe" as they like to say it, feels about it. On the news here we only get Obama, Geitner, and reports from the actual situation, not how the public feels about it. I understand that people will prolly feel annoyed, and kinda let down that it's an inheritance of previous generations, but does the majority now support higher taxes for richer people and a budget cut on things like military? (most obvious example), or do you think that the government should stay away from raising taxes and needs to try and find other ways to solve it? Looking at the debate now, both parties understand that something needs to change, but don't quite agree on how. From a belgian point of view, where taxes are well over 50%, I don't understand how the liberal party can be opposed to raising taxes when things are this dire, as well as why there aren't more people on the streets protesting. I don't know if street protesting is an EU thing, but I really think that it would happen here if the situation was the same as it is over there
Average Joe in america has been trained to not understand much about economics. Be highly suggestible, and have a very low resistance to basic obfuscation. I imagine he feels very frustrated about the situation, and his perceived lack of power over it.
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On July 24 2011 04:25 farvacola wrote:
Having people recognize the burgeoning debt as a problem is not the issue, not here in the US anyway. From what I gather, a huge number of people consider debt in general to be a horrible, terrible thing, when in fact the role that it plays in a healthy economy is vastly misunderstood. Unfortunately, partisan politics here in the United States revolves around buzzwords and "hot topic" issues, and for conservatives, the national debt is an easy jumping off point, as it allows them to attack taxes and government infrastructure all at once. Furthermore, instead of actually attempting to educate the masses in regards to the nature and function of debt in a healthy economy, they boil these issues down to mere "yes/no" or "good/bad" questions, further hurting any actual understanding,
The worst part of all this, far and away, is how a huge number of Americans blame the lower and middle classes for the debt problem. Republican fear-mongering in regards to government programs has created a horrible socio-political environment, one in which those who are on desperate times are somehow most responsible for the nation's debt. Take this scenario for instance:
A lot of republicans like to cite the recent data that suggests that 47% of Americans avoided federal income tax entirely, be it through entitlements or deductions that are part of the social safety-net. (additionally, a great many people think that all recipients of welfare or medicare are drug addicted pariahs, when in fact are usually simply disadvantaged minorities.) Anyways, back to the point. That 47% that avoided federal income tax? They make up a combined 2.99% of the economy in monetary terms, meaning that even if that entire 47% were properly taxed it would be a mere drop in the bucket. So, one may ask, where is the debt coming from, who isn't paying up?
The answer is obvious and simple, big business. Corporations are singlehandedly killing this country through their tax evasion and savvy tactics, and if you doubt me, here is a small sampling of companies and their avoided government dues.
1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.
2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.
3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.
4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.
The list goes on and on, some analysts suggest that if businesses in the US were held accountable for moving taxable infrastructure overseas and avoiding proper taxation, literally EVERY SINGLE monetary problem would be solved, and the national debt could be totally annihilated in a few years.
In the end, the problem is political in nature. The people of the United States have the means necessary to solve these financial problems, only the maneuvering of political parties (mostly Republicans but Democrats are just as guilty for not bringing these issues to the forefront) occludes the visibility of those in power taking advantage of those who are not, and instead we are endlessly embroiled in class and racial conflict, all in the name of partisan politics. inb4 TL;DR lol
Our national debt has been created by the government, not the corporations. Furthermore, i'm sure you are taking those tax cases completely out of context, as it is a matter of fact that some of those (the only one's I'm knowledgeable on) are completely logical. For example, when a company posts a net loss, the government reimburses them the taxable portion of that loss. This MAKES SENSE because that's the only way to truly tax the total cumulative net income to date - if you tax them in profitable years, but don't do anything in the years with a loss, you're effectively hiking the tax rate. It works with same way with individuals.
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Saw this list on CNN the other day and it put things in perspective a bit:
* Hong Kong: $121.9 billion (0.9 percent)
* Caribbean banking centers: $148.3 (1 percent)
* Taiwan: $153.4 billion (1.1 percent)
* Brazil: $211.4 billion (1.5 percent)
* Oil exporting countries: $229.8 billion (1.6 percent)
* Mutual funds: $300.5 billion (2 percent)
* Commercial banks: $301.8 billion (2.1 percent)
* State, local and federal retirement funds: $320.9 billion (2.2 percent)
* Money market mutual funds: $337.7 billion (2.4 percent)
* United Kingdom: $346.5 billion (2.4 percent)
* Private pension funds: $504.7 billion (3.5 percent)
* State and local governments: $506.1 billion (3.5 percent)
* Japan: $912.4 billion (6.4 percent)
* U.S. households: $959.4 billion (6.6 percent)
* China: $1.16 trillion (8 percent)
* The U.S. Treasury: $1.63 trillion (11.3 percent)
* Social Security trust fund: $2.67 trillion (19 percent)
America has managed to owe itself the largest sum, towards a service that never should have been touched in the first place.
If only there was a REAL fiscally-responsible, conservative political party I could vote for that wasn't absolutely batshit fucking insane.
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On July 24 2011 04:25 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 04:15 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Don't really know how other guys are keeping track of it, but in my opinion, the EU debt crisis is a lot worse than our debt crisis here.
A lot of people get the false assumption (it's sorta the fault of Republicans who exaggerated) that a default on US debt on August 2nd would cause some type of death bringing financial fall out that we've never experienced before.
It's not necessarily like that. If America fails to bring about some type of balanced budget or whatever by August 2nd, it only means that certain payments, like SS checks and payments to soldiers would start to dry up and stop. Now, of course, that's bad, but it's nowhere near as bad as countries in the Eurozone who can't pay back bond investors and have already had their credit ratings (like Italy) downgraded to junk status.
Is the debt a serious issue? To me, not really. What's more of an issue is what's causing the debt. Actual debt really doesn't do much since China will continue to buy it for the forseeable future. What is dangerous then is the possibility that America can't garner enough capital to pay back on interest payments or bond holders when the time comes.
The only reason US credit ratings were not downgraded so far is that the major rating agencies are in the US. The chinese rating agency Dagong puts Italy at A- and US at A+, far from AAA.
That's true. But so long as the major credit agencies maintain America's current holdings, investors really won't have anything to fear (yet). And to be honest, I actually don't really care much for rating agencies outside their influence to investors. The fact that they lied during the financial crisis in '08 (or at least it looked like they did) really hampered my trust in them.
On July 24 2011 04:26 horste wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 04:15 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Don't really know how other guys are keeping track of it, but in my opinion, the EU debt crisis is a lot worse than our debt crisis here.
A lot of people get the false assumption (it's sorta the fault of Republicans who exaggerated) that a default on US debt on August 2nd would cause some type of death bringing financial fall out that we've never experienced before.
It's not necessarily like that. If America fails to bring about some type of balanced budget or whatever by August 2nd, it only means that certain payments, like SS checks and payments to soldiers would start to dry up and stop. Now, of course, that's bad, but it's nowhere near as bad as countries in the Eurozone who can't pay back bond investors and have already had their credit ratings (like Italy) downgraded to junk status.
Is the debt a serious issue? To me, not really. What's more of an issue is what's causing the debt. Actual debt really doesn't do much since China will continue to buy it for the forseeable future. What is dangerous then is the possibility that America can't garner enough capital to pay back on interest payments or bond holders when the time comes.
I don't mean to trash you or anything, before I go further with this. With both of my parents working in the financial sector, and in an area which keeps close track of government debts, I feel obliged to answer here. The biggest problem with the EU crisis is that rating agencies keep downgrading EU nations credit ratings. With the amount of money that is being pumped into the member states, greece, italy, spain, whatever CAN pay back their debts, I can't stress this enough. America however, cannot. While I agree that it won't mean a financial fall out, it does mean that there will be things like parks, monuments, etc, that won't be open anymore, and will stop giving money. Same for soldier payments, you can't tax people that you can't afford to pay. Also, even with China buying your debt, you're only delaying the problem in my opinion, which is a really, really bad way to actually handle it.
Sorry, but I'm not sure what you really meant by this post.
If you're talking about EU nations being able to pay back their debts, then I'm afraid you're quite wrong here. The recent bailout package of $120 billion guarantees a Greek default, because no matter how you look at it, there's no way for Greece to pay off its current debts. The only thing that's being done is to mitigate the issue with more stimulus and calls for austerity, with austerity being the unwise of the two choices.
And if you're talking about other countries paying off their debt, might I remind you that Italy (which is the 4th largest economy in the Eurozone IIRC) has a current $2.6 trillion in outstanding sovereign debt, which is 120% of its GDP, three times of Greece, Ireland, and Portugal combined. (higher percentage-wise than the US)
Delaying the issue with China is also not the point of the post. The point is that China currently maintains our debt for the foreseeable future, which gives us time to target the real problem, the entitlements and low tax rates that are causing our yearly deficits.
Edit: Just to clarify on the Greek default point. After the new bailout package approved, rating agencies have stated that it would lead to default, which has led people to believe that agencies will declare "temporary default" for Greece.
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On July 24 2011 04:35 ploy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 04:25 farvacola wrote:
Having people recognize the burgeoning debt as a problem is not the issue, not here in the US anyway. From what I gather, a huge number of people consider debt in general to be a horrible, terrible thing, when in fact the role that it plays in a healthy economy is vastly misunderstood. Unfortunately, partisan politics here in the United States revolves around buzzwords and "hot topic" issues, and for conservatives, the national debt is an easy jumping off point, as it allows them to attack taxes and government infrastructure all at once. Furthermore, instead of actually attempting to educate the masses in regards to the nature and function of debt in a healthy economy, they boil these issues down to mere "yes/no" or "good/bad" questions, further hurting any actual understanding,
The worst part of all this, far and away, is how a huge number of Americans blame the lower and middle classes for the debt problem. Republican fear-mongering in regards to government programs has created a horrible socio-political environment, one in which those who are on desperate times are somehow most responsible for the nation's debt. Take this scenario for instance:
A lot of republicans like to cite the recent data that suggests that 47% of Americans avoided federal income tax entirely, be it through entitlements or deductions that are part of the social safety-net. (additionally, a great many people think that all recipients of welfare or medicare are drug addicted pariahs, when in fact are usually simply disadvantaged minorities.) Anyways, back to the point. That 47% that avoided federal income tax? They make up a combined 2.99% of the economy in monetary terms, meaning that even if that entire 47% were properly taxed it would be a mere drop in the bucket. So, one may ask, where is the debt coming from, who isn't paying up?
The answer is obvious and simple, big business. Corporations are singlehandedly killing this country through their tax evasion and savvy tactics, and if you doubt me, here is a small sampling of companies and their avoided government dues.
1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.
2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.
3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.
4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.
The list goes on and on, some analysts suggest that if businesses in the US were held accountable for moving taxable infrastructure overseas and avoiding proper taxation, literally EVERY SINGLE monetary problem would be solved, and the national debt could be totally annihilated in a few years.
In the end, the problem is political in nature. The people of the United States have the means necessary to solve these financial problems, only the maneuvering of political parties (mostly Republicans but Democrats are just as guilty for not bringing these issues to the forefront) occludes the visibility of those in power taking advantage of those who are not, and instead we are endlessly embroiled in class and racial conflict, all in the name of partisan politics. inb4 TL;DR lol Our national debt has been created by the government, not the corporations. Furthermore, i'm sure you are taking those tax cases completely out of context, as it is a matter of fact that some of those (the only one's I'm knowledgeable on) are completely logical. For example, when a company posts a net loss, the government reimburses them the taxable portion of that loss. This MAKES SENSE because that's the only way to truly tax the total cumulative net income to date - if you tax them in profitable years, but don't do anything in the years with a loss, you're effectively hiking the tax rate. It works with same way with individuals.
None of the companies I listed posted any net losses, in fact, many of the companies who received government bailouts that were supposedly issued to companies in dire economic straits still managed to give their managements millions upon millions of dollars in bonuses. I fail to see how your defense of businesses makes any sense. So the government created the national debt, like I said, it is a healthy component of a productive government/economy interaction, but somewhere, money is leaking, and it is most certainly not taking the form of government handouts considering how small such things measure up in the end.
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Although US dept is a hell of a lot higher than any other country, the figure that you have to look at is the debt as a percentage of GDP,
This is the way that you can measure different countries debt relative to each other
For Greece it is forcast to be a 161%
For the US it is about 36%
For the UK it is about 60%
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On July 24 2011 04:44 Gracksaurusrex wrote:
Although US dept is a hell of a lot higher than any other country, the figure that you have to look at is the debt as a percentage of GDP,
This is the way that you can measure different countries debt relative to each other
For Greece it is forcast to be a 161%
For the US it is about 36%
For the UK it is about 60%
lolnumbers ... look again plx.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt
and what you should also see is that % of gdp debt doenst mean ur auto fucked.
Japan chilling at 200%+ and nobody is talking about them.
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On July 24 2011 04:44 Gracksaurusrex wrote:
Although US dept is a hell of a lot higher than any other country, the figure that you have to look at is the debt as a percentage of GDP,
This is the way that you can measure different countries debt relative to each other
For Greece it is forcast to be a 161%
For the US it is about 36%
For the UK it is about 60%
US debt is projected to be 101% this year and 107% of GDP in 2012.
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On July 24 2011 04:25 farvacola wrote:
Having people recognize the burgeoning debt as a problem is not the issue, not here in the US anyway. From what I gather, a huge number of people consider debt in general to be a horrible, terrible thing, when in fact the role that it plays in a healthy economy is vastly misunderstood. Unfortunately, partisan politics here in the United States revolves around buzzwords and "hot topic" issues, and for conservatives, the national debt is an easy jumping off point, as it allows them to attack taxes and government infrastructure all at once. Furthermore, instead of actually attempting to educate the masses in regards to the nature and function of debt in a healthy economy, they boil these issues down to mere "yes/no" or "good/bad" questions, further hurting any actual understanding,
The worst part of all this, far and away, is how a huge number of Americans blame the lower and middle classes for the debt problem. Republican fear-mongering in regards to government programs has created a horrible socio-political environment, one in which those who are on desperate times are somehow most responsible for the nation's debt. Take this scenario for instance:
A lot of republicans like to cite the recent data that suggests that 47% of Americans avoided federal income tax entirely, be it through entitlements or deductions that are part of the social safety-net. (additionally, a great many people think that all recipients of welfare or medicare are drug addicted pariahs, when in fact are usually simply disadvantaged minorities.) Anyways, back to the point. That 47% that avoided federal income tax? They make up a combined 2.99% of the economy in monetary terms, meaning that even if that entire 47% were properly taxed it would be a mere drop in the bucket. So, one may ask, where is the debt coming from, who isn't paying up?
The answer is obvious and simple, big business. Corporations are singlehandedly killing this country through their tax evasion and savvy tactics, and if you doubt me, here is a small sampling of companies and their avoided government dues.
1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.
2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.
3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.
4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.
The list goes on and on, some analysts suggest that if businesses in the US were held accountable for moving taxable infrastructure overseas and avoiding proper taxation, literally EVERY SINGLE monetary problem would be solved, and the national debt could be totally annihilated in a few years.
In the end, the problem is political in nature. The people of the United States have the means necessary to solve these financial problems, only the maneuvering of political parties (mostly Republicans but Democrats are just as guilty for not bringing these issues to the forefront) occludes the visibility of those in power taking advantage of those who are not, and instead we are endlessly embroiled in class and racial conflict, all in the name of partisan politics. inb4 TL;DR lol
Dude you are missing the point. THAT MONEY GOES TOWARDS CREATING JOBS!!!... Right?
LOL you just gotta love the USA....
btw. Europe is probably just as bad but politics over here isn't as funny (apart from Italy maybe  )
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On July 24 2011 04:50 Gaga wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 04:44 Gracksaurusrex wrote:
Although US dept is a hell of a lot higher than any other country, the figure that you have to look at is the debt as a percentage of GDP,
This is the way that you can measure different countries debt relative to each other
For Greece it is forcast to be a 161%
For the US it is about 36%
For the UK it is about 60% lolnumbers ... look again plx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debtand what you should also see is that % of gdp debt doenst mean ur auto fucked. Japan chilling at 200%+ and nobody is talking about them.
9% inflation? How do you explain that? Either you play the financial game or get left in the dust..
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On July 24 2011 04:57 Marsupian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 04:25 farvacola wrote:
Having people recognize the burgeoning debt as a problem is not the issue, not here in the US anyway. From what I gather, a huge number of people consider debt in general to be a horrible, terrible thing, when in fact the role that it plays in a healthy economy is vastly misunderstood. Unfortunately, partisan politics here in the United States revolves around buzzwords and "hot topic" issues, and for conservatives, the national debt is an easy jumping off point, as it allows them to attack taxes and government infrastructure all at once. Furthermore, instead of actually attempting to educate the masses in regards to the nature and function of debt in a healthy economy, they boil these issues down to mere "yes/no" or "good/bad" questions, further hurting any actual understanding,
The worst part of all this, far and away, is how a huge number of Americans blame the lower and middle classes for the debt problem. Republican fear-mongering in regards to government programs has created a horrible socio-political environment, one in which those who are on desperate times are somehow most responsible for the nation's debt. Take this scenario for instance:
A lot of republicans like to cite the recent data that suggests that 47% of Americans avoided federal income tax entirely, be it through entitlements or deductions that are part of the social safety-net. (additionally, a great many people think that all recipients of welfare or medicare are drug addicted pariahs, when in fact are usually simply disadvantaged minorities.) Anyways, back to the point. That 47% that avoided federal income tax? They make up a combined 2.99% of the economy in monetary terms, meaning that even if that entire 47% were properly taxed it would be a mere drop in the bucket. So, one may ask, where is the debt coming from, who isn't paying up?
The answer is obvious and simple, big business. Corporations are singlehandedly killing this country through their tax evasion and savvy tactics, and if you doubt me, here is a small sampling of companies and their avoided government dues.
1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.
2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.
3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.
4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.
The list goes on and on, some analysts suggest that if businesses in the US were held accountable for moving taxable infrastructure overseas and avoiding proper taxation, literally EVERY SINGLE monetary problem would be solved, and the national debt could be totally annihilated in a few years.
In the end, the problem is political in nature. The people of the United States have the means necessary to solve these financial problems, only the maneuvering of political parties (mostly Republicans but Democrats are just as guilty for not bringing these issues to the forefront) occludes the visibility of those in power taking advantage of those who are not, and instead we are endlessly embroiled in class and racial conflict, all in the name of partisan politics. inb4 TL;DR lol Dude you are missing the point. THAT MONEY GOES TOWARDS CREATING JOBS!!!... Right? LOL you just gotta love the USA.... btw. Europe is probably just as bad but politics over here isn't as funny (apart from Italy maybe )
lol Burlesconi's sexual proclivities are one thing Americans can get behind! no pun intended 
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On July 24 2011 04:36 Bibdy wrote:Saw this list on CNN the other day and it put things in perspective a bit: Show nested quote + * Hong Kong: $121.9 billion (0.9 percent)
* Caribbean banking centers: $148.3 (1 percent)
* Taiwan: $153.4 billion (1.1 percent)
* Brazil: $211.4 billion (1.5 percent)
* Oil exporting countries: $229.8 billion (1.6 percent)
* Mutual funds: $300.5 billion (2 percent)
* Commercial banks: $301.8 billion (2.1 percent)
* State, local and federal retirement funds: $320.9 billion (2.2 percent)
* Money market mutual funds: $337.7 billion (2.4 percent)
* United Kingdom: $346.5 billion (2.4 percent)
* Private pension funds: $504.7 billion (3.5 percent)
* State and local governments: $506.1 billion (3.5 percent)
* Japan: $912.4 billion (6.4 percent)
* U.S. households: $959.4 billion (6.6 percent)
* China: $1.16 trillion (8 percent)
* The U.S. Treasury: $1.63 trillion (11.3 percent)
* Social Security trust fund: $2.67 trillion (19 percent)
America has managed to owe itself the largest sum, towards a service that never should have been touched in the first place. If only there was a REAL fiscally-responsible, conservative political party I could vote for that wasn't absolutely batshit fucking insane.
Hah, I was going to post the same thing. Half of the debt is owed to ourselves? I mean really...... WHAT THE HELL
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You want to know how the average American feels? We feel mad as hell and where not gonna take it anymore. All of them are out. Every senator and Representative. Start over with a clean slate. Elect people with common sense who know how to compromise.
Fix the tax code. Everyone I have talked to knows that the tax code is a mess. Its based on the idea that if you do not tax the wealthy, they will take that money and reinvest it into the economy. Now I do believe that they could do this a hell of a lot better than the government, but their is no guarantees that they wont hoard the money or invest it over seas. If we at least adapted measures that guaranteed low tax rates for insurances that the money is going to America, and cut out all the BS loop holes we would all be better off. Then we need to institute some term limits and a balanced budget amendment that is flexible not to lead us into ruin during a crisis, but will keep us in line during normalcy. Then we need to fix SS, Medicaid and Medicare and use a scalpel to make adjustments to it. Finally cut all the government waste. The amount of redundancy,waste and inefficiency in the government is staggering. So many of the repetitive programs can be cut.That is what is gonna happen. And all those fools in Washington, are gonna get the boot.
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On July 24 2011 04:50 Gaga wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 04:44 Gracksaurusrex wrote:
Although US dept is a hell of a lot higher than any other country, the figure that you have to look at is the debt as a percentage of GDP,
This is the way that you can measure different countries debt relative to each other
For Greece it is forcast to be a 161%
For the US it is about 36%
For the UK it is about 60% lolnumbers ... look again plx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debtand what you should also see is that % of gdp debt doenst mean ur auto fucked. Japan chilling at 200%+ and nobody is talking about them.
Japan's been in a 20 year recession because of it's debt.
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Isn't money made up anyways? What exactly is it that keeps the government from perpetually saying "there isn't a financial crisis, and the debt doesn't matter" ? What if it was just never paid back?
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you could lower the debt by a good amount by having every american pay 25% of the debt they owe. But the fact is you can't just do that because people are poor. The rich are not willing to give any extra money to try and help the cause. Any tax increase on other things will be bad results even though we in USA already pay low taxes. In times like these, taxes have to go up. Prices for everything have gone up, so spending has gone up even if they buy the same amount they did the same year.
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On July 24 2011 04:25 farvacola wrote:
The worst part of all this, far and away, is how a huge number of Americans blame the lower and middle classes for the debt problem. Republican fear-mongering in regards to government programs has created a horrible socio-political environment, one in which those who are on desperate times are somehow most responsible for the nation's debt.
And then you realize that it's not only the republicans demonizing people. Democrats have been constantly demonizing "corporate jet owners" as if we're some sort of people that only run around in tophats and monocles laughing at the plight of our employees. The debt situation isn't nearly as simplified as you make it. It's not an issue of CEOs wanting more money, it's not an issue of us needing to buy another Lamborghini because our last one wasn't in the color we liked. It's fear of falling behind. Those who play by the rules get left in the dust, especially in competitive industries like gas and banking.
If a lot of these major companies start obeying by strict rules from the government and high taxes, America's business will quickly be overrun by lots of less-regulated foreign companies. We've already seen this with car companies. I don't think the situation is as easy to defuse as you make it, but it's definitely a start.
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On July 24 2011 05:09 travis wrote:
Isn't money made up anyways? What exactly is it that keeps the government from perpetually saying "there isn't a financial crisis, and the debt doesn't matter" ? What if it was just never paid back?
For the longest time, the debt really didn't matter, and to me, it still doesn't.
But the government can't keep saying that it doesn't matter forever, because it's got payments. A debt is fine so long as the government can keep generating the revenue to perpetually keep up with the interest it needs to dish out on its loans.
But now, the US is hard pressed to do that because we literally are out of money.
As for actual consequences....
It means we can't pay back checks to Social Security beneficiaries...or soldiers...etc.
At one point, we can't pay back our investors, credit agencies downgrade our rating to shit....
After that, even countries like China (who is actually trying to diversity its portfolio so it doesn't have too much US debt on its balance sheets) gives up on covering for America, and might even repossess if it feels like....
The ramifications there are pretty much up to your imagination...but it's pretty bad if it gets out of control.
On July 24 2011 05:11 Farkinator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 04:25 farvacola wrote:
The worst part of all this, far and away, is how a huge number of Americans blame the lower and middle classes for the debt problem. Republican fear-mongering in regards to government programs has created a horrible socio-political environment, one in which those who are on desperate times are somehow most responsible for the nation's debt.
And then you realize that it's not only the republicans demonizing people. Democrats have been constantly demonizing "corporate jet owners" as if we're some sort of people that only run around in tophats and monocles laughing at the plight of our employees. The debt situation isn't nearly as simplified as you make it. It's not an issue of CEOs wanting more money, it's not an issue of us needing to buy another Lamborghini because our last one wasn't in the color we liked. It's fear of falling behind. Those who play by the rules get left in the dust, especially in competitive industries like gas and banking. If a lot of these major companies start obeying by strict rules from the government and high taxes, America's business will quickly be overrun by lots of less-regulated foreign companies. We've already seen this with car companies. I don't think the situation is as easy to defuse as you make it, but it's definitely a start.
That's actually something I find quite ironic. Democrats talk about all these people who spend thousands of dollars on all these expensive things during a recession and how they're "bad".
But in reality.....isn't that good for the economy? At least theoretically in Keynesian terms. If all these people who are rich decide to fly around in expensive jets and pay huge sums of money, aren't they technically stimulating the economy in similar ways to government stimulus?
I guess it's just kind of interesting how that works.
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how large actually is the US international debt?
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On July 24 2011 04:50 Gaga wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 04:44 Gracksaurusrex wrote:
Although US dept is a hell of a lot higher than any other country, the figure that you have to look at is the debt as a percentage of GDP,
This is the way that you can measure different countries debt relative to each other
For Greece it is forcast to be a 161%
For the US it is about 36%
For the UK it is about 60% lolnumbers ... look again plx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debtand what you should also see is that % of gdp debt doenst mean ur auto fucked. Japan chilling at 200%+ and nobody is talking about them.
Japan's situation is different.
Japan has a lot of money invested elsewhere (e.g. it holds a share of the US debt for example). Its net international investment position is actually one of the strongest in the world, a net surplus of 56% of its GDP, which means the world owes Japan a lot of money.
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EPT
