EPT[Old] The massacre in Norway - Page 136
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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
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Miyoshino
314 Posts
To me debating the death penalty is like debating with the Taliban. Not going to do it. When I see a person from a country like the US, or eastern Europe or some asian country attack Norway for not having the death penalty I just feel sick. It's disgusting. | ||
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Teoman
Norway382 Posts
On April 17 2012 22:40 Miyoshino wrote: It is not aggressive considering how offensive it is for someone to promote inferior morality. Some societies are superior to others. Most societies on this planet are fucked up. They have violence, tons of corruption and injustice, etc.Then there is one society that is better than almost any other, and we see people just go and attack that. The amount of corruption in a country and the support for the death penalty in a country are connected. To me debating the death penalty is like debating with the Taliban. Not going to do it. When I see a person from a country like the US, or eastern Europe or some asian country attack Norway for not having the death penalty I just fee sick. It's disgusting. Well, my point wasn't death penalty in itself, or if some societys was "superior" than others, but rather that instead of looking at the country they are from, when arguing about death sentence. Instead look at the arguments they make themselves about it. Although someone from Romania will have different opinions about some things, than an norwegian, I just find it wrong to say that "it is kind of silly for people from backwater areas like Romania and Hungary to try to lecture the Norwegians, who have one of the best models for society on the planet, on how to run their stuff". Just because he is from Romania, it doesn't mean that he can't argue against people, and saying that Norway have one of the best model for society on the planet, although i agree, is a quite subjective thing to say without any backing for it. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On April 17 2012 22:40 Miyoshino wrote: It is not aggressive considering how offensive it is for someone to promote inferior morality. Some societies are superior to others. Most societies on this planet are fucked up. They have violence, tons of corruption and injustice, etc.Then there is one society that is better than almost any other, and we see people just go and attack that. The amount of corruption in a country and the support for the death penalty in a country are connected. To me debating the death penalty is like debating with the Taliban. Not going to do it. When I see a person from a country like the US, or eastern Europe or some asian country attack Norway for not having the death penalty I just feel sick. It's disgusting. Your post reminds me of libertarian economist Bryan Caplan's remark that Scandinavia is not the peak of civilization, and reminds me that the superiority complex of some people when it comes to Scandinavia is responsible far more for criticism of those countries than any actual shortcomings in their society. The idea that the amount of corruption in a country and support for the death penalty are connected seems more like a baseless moralistic emotion-driven attack than anything else. | ||
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Miyoshino
314 Posts
People from countries that are less civilized have to realize the fact that their countries are less civiized and don't act like it is the other way and Norway needs to be taught what is 'proper justice'. If the want to know why the death penalty is bad they are free to ask without having to be attacked. If they want to defend why they think having the death penalty in their country is good, well then I will just have to swallow. But this even happened in the wake of these murders, when it was still fresh. People where they have as many murders a day as Norway have in a year came here to explain why Norway was such a fucked up place because they don't have 'proper' punishment and their prisons are like 'hotels'. No fucking no. It's the other way around. If we don't stand up to this shit how can we prevent civilization from collapsing? Countries that have the death penalty are more corrupt and the most corrupt countries all have the death penalty. It may be hard to figure out why this is but it is still a statistical fact. To me it is clear that these places are just less civilized. If you have some other theory, fine. Open a new thread if you want to discuss that. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
Maybe that's because you are from Norway you find it hard to understand how special your country is. A high level of civilization is a fragile thing and easily destroyed. People from countries that are less civilized have to realize the fact that their countries are less civiized and don't act like it is the other way and Norway needs to be taught what is 'proper justice'. If the want to know why the death penalty is bad they are free to ask without having to be attacked. If they want to defend why they think having the death penalty in their country is good, well then I will just have to swallow. But this even happened in the wake of these murders, when it was still fresh. People where they have as many murders a day as Norway have in a year came here to explain why Norway was such a fucked up place because they don't have 'proper' punishment and their prisons are like 'hotels'. No fucking no. It's the other way around. If we don't stand up to this shit how can we prevent civilization from collapsing? Countries that have the death penalty are more corrupt and the most corrupt countries all have the death penalty. It may be hard to figure out why this is but it is still a statistical fact. Perhaps we can save civilization from collapsing by resisting the urge to indulge in simplistic and offensive shaming like you are. All it accomplishes is to raise hackles, make people defensive. So you think Norway is superior, good for you. It's not necessary or productive to insult entire societies with strong remarks like "less civilized" in a general way based on one difference. It's pretty sad that you have to take your argument to such an extreme as to suggest that other people or societies are a threat to civilization itself based on their noncompliance with a single, relatively unimportant position (to society as a whole) you hold superior. Again, to paraphrase Caplan and to also steal from Fukuyama, Scandinavia is not the end of history. To me it is clear that these places are just less civilized. If you have some other theory, fine. Open a new thread if you want to discuss that. Don't make offensive statements and then demand that they be left unchallenged because this isn't the proper place to criticize them. If that is so, then this isn't the proper place to have made the statements in the first place. | ||
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Teoman
Norway382 Posts
On April 17 2012 22:59 Miyoshino wrote: Maybe that's because you are from Norway you find it hard to understand how special your country is. A high level of civilization is a fragile thing and easily destroyed. People from countries that are less civilized have to realize the fact that their countries are less civiized and don't act like it is the other way and Norway needs to be taught what is 'proper justice'. If the want to know why the death penalty is bad they are free to ask without having to be attacked. If they want to defend why they think having the death penalty in their country is good, well then I will just have to swallow. But this even happened in the wake of these murders, when it was still fresh. People where they have as many murders a day as Norway have in a year came here to explain why Norway was such a fucked up place because they don't have 'proper' punishment and their prisons are like 'hotels'. No fucking no. It's the other way around. If we don't stand up to this shit how can we prevent civilization from collapsing? Countries that have the death penalty are more corrupt and the most corrupt countries all have the death penalty. It may be hard to figure out why this is but it is still a statistical fact. To me it is clear that these places are just less civilized. If you have some other theory, fine. Open a new thread if you want to discuss that. I don't recall saying that Norway is not a great place. although i must admit i have not traveled the world to any great degree, i agree that countries like Norway are as it is a good place to live. But as DeepElemBlues said, there is no way to call it the "peak of civilization", no matter how high it is. Not im accusing you of saying that, but i still think that even if Norway should be the greatest country in the world, it should not be without critics, and i think that is the only way to make it better. And i think your tone is not really that good for arguing in a global context like this And i must say that i agree with you regarding people who claim that other countries are bad without even looking at the state of their own country to see if their point of view may be different is not really okay. But as long as the argument is not "my country have death penalty, and therefore, you should have it too" i think it should be considered in a fair way (that may be what you meant alltogether though :D). So that if you can give a non cultural dependent reason for or against death penalty, it is an argument to consider. Did you know that also plenty of people in Norwaywhere supporting death penalty and still is after the murderers. So those opinions go way beyond country borders. But i agree that this may be a little bit of topic, so i will leave it with that, unless you are interested in taking it back to the original case | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
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Miyoshino
314 Posts
I don't even know what DeepElmBlues is talking about. I can never tell what he is talking about when I see one of his posts. I suspect you can only undersatnd his post when you are well-versed in American newspeak. Even people that support the death penalty must be forced to admit their position is less civilized. You are just giving this guy more ammunition to support his radical views with and defend a guy that killed 77 people. | ||
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Undrass
Norway381 Posts
On April 17 2012 23:17 Bleak wrote: Death penalty or not, 21 years for murdering 80 people is outrageous. He deserves a life-term imprisonment with heaviest conditions. Jeez. This again. He wont get 21 years of prison. he will get 21 years in prison, with a provision to keep him behind bars longer if he is still considered dangerous. So, while there is a small theoretical chance of there being only 21 years, its not going to happen. | ||
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Carapas
Canada242 Posts
World of Warcraft – a virtual world where 10.3 million players attempt to achieve the position of "Justicar" – has been criticised for its addictiveness. Prosecutor Svein Holden described the game as "violent". The goal of WoW is certainly not to get the title of Justicar -.- And I would certainly not describe WoW as violent, since it's cartoonish, there is not blood, and the world reprensented by WoW is so fantastic you can't relate that in the real world, wtf. Breivik broke into a broad smile when Mr Holden projected an image of "Justicar Andersnordic", Breivik's avatar in the game, onto a screen in the courtroom. I would fucking smile too if I was accused of near a 100 murders and all the lawyers would bring is my fucking WoW toon. I mean what did they expect? Another case of strong disinformation towards gaming in the traditionnal media yay! | ||
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Teoman
Norway382 Posts
On April 17 2012 23:19 Miyoshino wrote: Defending the death penalty is offensive. Defending civilization is not. If you are Norwegian and you don't like it, feel free to move to Romania or to India or to Russia or whatever place you think is better. I don't even know what DeepElmBlues is talking about. I can never tell what he is talking about when I see one of his posts. I suspect you can only undersatnd his post when you are well-versed in American newspeak. Even people that support the death penalty must be forced to admit their position is less civilized. You are just giving this guy more ammunition to support his radical views with and defend a guy that killed 77 people. I am sorry, but i don't understand what you are trying to say anymore. First of all: I havent even used the word offensive. I don't condone of the word as i don't think arguing can cause any harm in itself. Second: How is defending the death penalty "offensive" in itself? Is it not the arguments that people use in their defence that should be critizised? And i disagree for death sentence, but i just don't think that anything should be disregarded because i disagree with it. Third: I have never claimed that civilization is bad. And i don't understand your point there. Please elaborate. And when saying that supporting death penalty is less civilized and that you are giving ammunition to and defending ABB, you don't give any backing for it, but are rather just stating it as fact. Please explain why it is less civilized to think that death sentence is right, and why someone are supporting ABB with it. | ||
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Miyoshino
314 Posts
You just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing. If you really want me to explain all this to you, paypal me first. Also, if education wasn't free in Norway, I would advice you to ask your money back. | ||
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Ai.Kitsune
37 Posts
Not sure if you can watch it outside of the UK but HERE is the link. Really interesting yet equally as disturbing, worth a watch if you can! | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On April 17 2012 23:19 Miyoshino wrote: Defending the death penalty is offensive. Defending civilization is not. If you are Norwegian and you don't like it, feel free to move to Romania or to India or to Russia or whatever place you think is better. I don't even know what DeepElmBlues is talking about. I can never tell what he is talking about when I see one of his posts. I suspect you can only undersatnd his post when you are well-versed in American newspeak. Even people that support the death penalty must be forced to admit their position is less civilized. You are just giving this guy more ammunition to support his radical views with and defend a guy that killed 77 people. You don't convince people of the superiority of something by asserting its superiority and asserting the inferiority of everything else in an insulting way. All you're doing is insulting societies and people that aren't the way you like or don't agree with you. How supporting the death penalty means supporting Breivik's radical views and his murder spree is a mystery, you're flying off the handle really. Clearly Brevik was in favour of the death penalty. You just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing. If you really want me to explain all this to you, paypal me first. Also, if education wasn't free in Norway, I would advice you to ask your money back. You shouldn't be insulting people as uneducated when you're indulging in a big fallacy by saying that A supports the death penalty, B supports the death penalty, so A must also support other opinions or actions of B. | ||
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Miyoshino
314 Posts
Brevik wanted to influence Norwegian society and European society. He wanted to turn back the clock. Maybe even to the middle ages considering his Knights Templar and crusader stuff. He wanted all this cruel old fashioned stuff. I rather like my modern Europe. So when people come that live just outside this modern Europe, with most of their countrymen working hard to progress their country to that stage, I am offended. If you don't care, fine. If you aren't convinced fine. But don't tell me you didn't know you were wrong later on. Because you did know and you have almost no excuse. You shouldn't even need anyone to make an in detail argument to convince you anyway. You have your own mental facualties. You have the internet to find all the fact you need to know. And you all have a moral compass, though they will not all function in the same way. That should be enough on a simple issue like capital punishment. I am not making a fallacy. Go read more clearly. It's insulting for you to suggest so. But then again, considering your track record here, I shouldn't be surprised by anything you say. And if you are really going to try to attack my reasoning, which I am not really engaging in anyway, you can make a lot less worse looking case if you go for my line saying Romanians can't tell Norwegians why to have capital punishment because they are Romanian. Really, I never said anything that suggests I think people that support the death penalty support anything Brevik did. It makes you look stupid to suggest this. All I said is that you are doing what Brevik hopes you would do and that can't really be disupted. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
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Miyoshino
314 Posts
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On April 17 2012 23:17 Bleak wrote: Death penalty or not, 21 years for murdering 80 people is outrageous. He deserves a life-term imprisonment with heaviest conditions. After the 21 years have been server, he will be re-evaluated, and if necessary, will have to serve another 21 years. This can happen more than once, too, if i'm not mistaken. The re-evaluation process is also, presumably, very strict, so if it's clear that he isn't a threat to society anymore, it shouldn't be a problem. I don't see any glaring faults with this system, I think it's just somewhat odd for a lot of people (Norwegians and otherwise) to grasp that being in prison shouldn't be about being put in horrendous living conditions, but rather about rehabilitation and treating the prisoners like human beings, no matter their crime. Also, obviously 21 years is the maximum sentence in Norway, and with the system stated above being in place, it really shouldn't be a problem. I doubt that criminals who are obviously still dangerous would be set free and be able to live as other humans. As this is already off-topic enough, I won't go into the death penalty thing. As many others, I assume, I was somewhat disappointed (albeit understandably) that we could not see the actual questioning of ABB, and had to stick to reading online transcripts. It nevertheless gave me an interesting look into the twisted mind of ABB. He really does live in a whole different world... On April 17 2012 23:25 Carapas wrote: The goal of WoW is certainly not to get the title of Justicar -.- And I would certainly not describe WoW as violent, since it's cartoonish, there is not blood, and the world reprensented by WoW is so fantastic you can't relate that in the real world, wtf. I would fucking smile too if I was accused of near a 100 murders and all the lawyers would bring is my fucking WoW toon. I mean what did they expect? Another case of strong disinformation towards gaming in the traditionnal media yay! Oh god yes. I think it's embarrassing that they would even bring up WoW in such a serious case. Do these people not yet understand that people do in fact have a distinction between killing things "IRL" and in a video game? Let's see, allow me to log on to my most recent WoW character... Aha! Since starting this character yesterday, I have already viciously murdered/assisted in the murder of 1777 creatures! Surely this game influences me and desensitizes murder, allowing me to commit such acts without a feather of guilt on my conscience. Fucking media, urgh. | ||
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Teoman
Norway382 Posts
But PLEASE stop attacking people's "track records" or nationality, or whon they may support, and instead argue based on what they are actually saying in the spesific posts. On April 17 2012 23:33 Miyoshino wrote: Clearly Brevik was in favour of the death penalty. You just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing. If you really want me to explain all this to you, paypal me first. Also, if education wasn't free in Norway, I would advice you to ask your money back. What Brevik thinks of death penalty doesn't make it right or wrong. Its only his opinion. I will not pay you for explaining your post, because no one should pay for that in the first place, and if you think that,,then why aren't you paying me? And what does norwegian, or my education have to do with anything. It's again just attacking the person rather than the arguments. Well, I don't really care. But after reading my posts and me asserting what is superior and what is inferior, you really don't have any excuse left to hold the inferior position on this issue, do you? What gives you any right to say what is an superior or inferior position on a matter i don't even know what you are reffering to? Brevik wanted to influence Norwegian society and European society. He wanted to turn back the clock. Maybe even to the middle ages considering his Knights Templar and crusader stuff. He wanted all this cruel old fashioned stuff. I am no expert on Breivik, but i know he did not want to revert society back in time. He was mainly agains multicultularism, liberalism, and marxism. So when people come that live just outside this modern Europe, with most of their countrymen working hard to progress their country to that stage, I am offended. If you don't care, fine. If you aren't convinced fine. But don't tell me you didn't know you were wrong later on. Because you did know and you have almost no excuse. I don't understand what you are trying to say. I am sorry, but you must explain this closer. You shouldn't even need anyone to make an in detail argument to convince you anyway. You have your own mental facualties. You have the internet to find all the fact you need to know. And you all have a moral compass, though they will not all function in the same way. That should be enough on a simple issue like capital punishment. With all the things that people disagree so radically about in the world, how can you say that you don't need to make a detailed argument (for what by the way. Please use quote marks :D). hardly anyone agree with anyone, and reading the response you get i think you should understand that too. And if you are really going to try to attack my reasoning, which I am not really engaging in anyway, you can make a lot less worse looking case if you go for my line saying Romanians can't tell Norwegians why to have capital punishment because they are Romanian. Really, I never said anything that suggests I think people that support the death penalty support anything Brevik did. It makes you look stupid to suggest this. All I said is that you are doing what Brevik hopes you would do and that can't really be disupted I didn't mean that you said that romanians cant tell people anything because they are romanians. I said that you should not look at all at where the people are from and rather argue against their arguments in themselves. You claimed that because romania is a "backwater" country, they cant try to lecture norwegians on why they should have death penalty. That is what i was disagreeing about. Even people that support the death penalty must be forced to admit their position is less civilized. You are just giving this guy more ammunition to support his radical views with and defend a guy that killed 77 people. You are not saying that they support Breivik, you said they defended him. Please correct me if i am mistaken (and i will not pay you for it) EDIT: Hope this is not getting to off topic  | ||
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