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Eleaven
772 Posts
On July 16 2011 06:21 Nothingtosay wrote: Vetinari you're the worst kind of oppressor, the one who believes that you're doing a favor for those you're oppressing. He's not oppressing anyone, he has an opinion. He can't do anything with that opinion other than express and discuss it. | ||
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
On July 16 2011 04:54 Puzzled wrote: It's neither slander nor verbal abuse for men or women. It's nothing more than an uncovering of the speaker's ignorance or immaturity. And that's leaving aside the entirely fun (for me) conversations that ensue when my opponents tell me to 'go suck c---'... you speak in such puzzles i wish i had the same patience as yours to find THAT fun | ||
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Ropid
Germany3557 Posts
On July 16 2011 06:03 Eleaven wrote: According to pretty much any study done (please correct me if new evidence counters this point) but since being given all this choice, happiness levels have dropped overwhelmingly amongst women. (and men) Even feminists agree that what has been done long term is overall bad for women in general (usually the older 'original' feminists, i'll find citations etc when i have time, unless ofc this post just gets "lol derrr sexist" replies) Can this really be true? I remember news reports about a "Happiness" index and the top ten in the list was full of progressive (regarding the gender equality business of this thread) societies, for example all Scandinavian countries, and no countries with more traditional societies like Saudi Arabia or something in that top ten. Because the age pyramid nowadays looks totally different than what it looked like in 1911, all those European countries do not function without having women working, which makes women automatically independent compared to the past, and it all worked out alright, better than anywhere else and so perhaps better than it would have without feminism? | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On July 16 2011 06:40 Ropid wrote: Can this really be true? I remember news reports about a "Happiness" index and the top ten in the list was full of progressive (regarding the gender equality business of this thread) societies, for example all Scandinavian countries, and no countries with more traditional societies like Saudi Arabia or something in that top ten. Because the age pyramid nowadays looks totally different than what it looked like in 1911, all those European countries do not function without having women working, which makes women automatically independent compared to the past, and it all worked out alright, better than anywhere else and so perhaps better than it would have without feminism? I don't think you can rule out the possibility that women only said they were happy back then because their husband was standing in the room at the time. At any rate, they wanted it. Kind of like that funny quip people keep making about the gay marriage thing. "Gays? Marrying? Go ahead. Now they can be just as miserable as the rest of us!". | ||
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sailorferret
United States66 Posts
I agree with thegiz. Once we fix the problem of allowing women to do what they want with their bodies we can move on to bigger problems like the troubling issue that black people are allowed to vote. This now takes the cake for my favorite post on TL forums for being the most racist and sexist statement yet. I'll take it as an act of political satire, attempting to invert the power dynamics at play here with some humor... that way I can still have an optimistic view of the gaming community. | ||
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HoldenR
Netherlands256 Posts
Nothing makes it more clear the blatant sexism toward both women and men as the Lindsey Sporrer fanclub, as much as you guys might like to pretend it's not there. Lindsey was, by all accounts, an absolute disaster at the NASL. Knowing absolutely nothing about the game, she brought fake-excitement(You can't be excited about something you know nothing about), and everyone loved it because she was a pretty girl. In fact, a good amount of posts in the fanclub is "oh my god she's so pretty i want to join da fanclub more pretty girls to play SC2 plz XD". When confronted with their own sexism, these men will perpetuate sexism toward males by going "what, do you hate cute chicks? Must be a misogynist/gay/something else that's dumb" without even taking a look at the content of why people are honestly upset about the attention Lindsey is getting. The point you all need to realize is that she didn't do ANYTHING Sc2 related. She smiled, looked pretty, and blundered on every front related to SC2. That's _IT_. And yet everybody loves her, and those who don't are talked down to. And everybody loves her for it. That is blatantly giving her a pass that she wouldn't get if she was a guy, pretty or not. Nada wouldn't have a "nada's body thread" if he wasn't a progamer, which is the entire point of this being sexist: discriminating based on gender. You can say it's positive discrimination and that it's good that we have "pretty girls" interested in SC2, but it's still a huge amount of discrimination which is discrediting women with a genuine interest in SC2, because they can't actually measure their accomplishments to the men who compete at the top level. They'll either be told they're peachy perfect because they're pretty, or left in the dust because they're not. And that's the damn problem. | ||
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Jonas :)
United States511 Posts
On July 16 2011 04:54 Puzzled wrote: It's neither slander nor verbal abuse for men or women. It's nothing more than an uncovering of the speaker's ignorance or immaturity. And that's leaving aside the entirely fun (for me) conversations that ensue when my opponents tell me to 'go suck c---'... I feel like this calls for a "douchebag woman gamer" meme, although I am too lazy to make one. If I would, it would go something like this COMPLAIN ABOUT NOT BEING TREATED THE SAME AS MEN <picture of a woman wearing the douchebag hat> GO ONTO THE LADDER WHERE EVERYONE IS TREATED THE SAME AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT, TOO | ||
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
On July 16 2011 06:48 sailorferret wrote: This now takes the cake for my favorite post on TL forums for being the most racist and sexist statement yet. I'll take it as an act of political satire, attempting to invert the power dynamics at play here with some humor... that way I can still have an optimistic view of the gaming community. thegiz is right though on the part of "children not being pets"... sure it's the woman's body and hers to do whatever she wants, but does that mean her offspring should be condemned to a shitty life? maybe his method of licensure is too extreme... but you haven't seen how kids get treated though by uneducated parents, it's pretty close to late abortion if you ask me or the Delta upbringing if one refers to The Brave New World. This is a prevalent problem of kids being born equal but then everything after is unequal....even walking down some streets, it may be possible to behold some parent slapping her kid to the street how is a black kid in a ghetto going to get the fair treatment of a white kid in an affluent neighborhood with better family/friend support and everything? | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
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Aeruru
United States22 Posts
It's the same idea for women in gaming. The infrastructure and community for males is so far ahead that something must be done to make competitive SC2 more welcoming to women gamers. These women-only leagues provide comradeship and a more welcoming community. They encourage girls to try competitive gaming as a bigger part of their lives. I'm a girl and I'm not insulted by women-only leagues. I don't delude myself into thinking that the winner of an Ironlady event is as good as a major SC2 event champion. I see these women-only events as a generous effort on the part of sponsors to increase the talent pool. It's just a stepping stone for brave and awesome women gamers who will one day, with enough encouragement and support, be competitive against any person regardless of race or gender. | ||
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craz3d
Bulgaria856 Posts
On July 16 2011 06:48 sailorferret wrote: This now takes the cake for my favorite post on TL forums for being the most racist and sexist statement yet. I'll take it as an act of political satire, attempting to invert the power dynamics at play here with some humor... that way I can still have an optimistic view of the gaming community. That was sarcasm. On the topic of women in e-sports: all they need to do is start training 12 hours a day and start dedicating themselves to the game. There are some obstacles in the way, that's true. I remember when Tossgirl was part of the STX A-team, it was revealed she never trained in the actual gamer house with the rest of the guys. So really, it all goes back to my first point about training. If you want a real inspiration for women in a male dominated "sport," just look at chess. Judit Polgar is a woman who has won matches against top players including Garry Kasparov, arguably the greatest chess player ever. | ||
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HoldenR
Netherlands256 Posts
On July 16 2011 07:01 Aeruru wrote: I don't think it's too hard to understand why there should be women-only leagues. Take the BW scene. Why are there very few foreign pros in BW? It's not that Koreans are genetically superior to other races; it's that the Korean infrastructure for BW gamers is so ahead it’s hard for foreigners to catch up. The bar is too high for foreigners who are not sure they can make it and so talented foreigners become discouraged and leave the scene. It's the same idea for women in gaming. The infrastructure and community for males is so far ahead that something must be done to make competitive SC2 more welcoming to women gamers. These women-only leagues provide comradeship and a more welcoming community. They encourage girls to try competitive gaming as a bigger part of their lives. I'm a girl and I'm not insulted by women-only leagues. I don't delude myself into thinking that the winner of an Ironlady event is as good as a major SC2 event champion. I see these women-only events as a generous effort on the part of sponsors to increase the talent pool. It's just a stepping stone for brave and awesome women gamers who will one day, with enough encouragement and support, be competitive against any person regardless of race or gender. I'm not sure how you draw the comparison between geographical and cultural differences to sexual differences. Try to elaborate, please, why it's different from your point of view as a girl to enter the scene. It's online, technically anonymous(Although your realID might give you away, which is a stupid forced addition in the first place, but you don't need to add people if you don't want them to find out), so no one need even know you're a girl. As opposed to speaking a different language, growing up in a different culture, and living in a different timezone and country entirely. I'm certain I'm not entirely right, but I'd like a bit more explanation from you, if you could. | ||
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Xevious
United States2086 Posts
On July 15 2011 11:02 Trajan98 wrote: Women can compete equally in things such as politics but in gaming and sports they are at a disadvantage. Anything that involves reaction times, physical speed and strength men will excel at over women because men have evolved over millions of years as hunters. lol? | ||
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Aeruru
United States22 Posts
On July 16 2011 07:14 HoldenR wrote: I'm not sure how you draw the comparison between geographical and cultural differences to sexual differences. Try to elaborate, please, why it's different from your point of view as a girl to enter the scene. It's online, technically anonymous(Although your realID might give you away, which is a stupid forced addition in the first place, but you don't need to add people if you don't want them to find out), so no one need even know you're a girl. As opposed to speaking a different language, growing up in a different culture, and living in a different timezone and country entirely. I'm certain I'm not entirely right, but I'd like a bit more explanation from you, if you could. I wasn't trying to be so literal in my comparison  Going to Korea is a much much bigger commitment than a girl entering a regular tournament. I'm just trying to say that women-only tournaments help women create a support network that allow them to overcome the challenges that prevent more women from getting into competitive gaming.Imagine if there was a generous sponsor who was willing to fund decent sized BW tournaments in the US. The winners from these would be further sponsored to go to Korea as a team to compete there. This would generate excitement among US gamers and make them more willing to take the step to overcome the challenging language and cultural barriers. Sure people would ask "why should we watch a tournament of amateurs" but you can't deny that such a tournament would help build a US BW scene. So anyone who wants there to a US BW scene should support such a move even if the Korean pros are excluded. You ask why women gamers would feel odd going into online tournaments since they are anonymous. I think that women are fine entering online tournaments. Women-only tournaments aren't about giving women gamers an alternative to male tournaments. It's an addition to help build the community and increase the talent pool. We all want a day to come when we don't need women-only tournaments, a day when there are so many girls interested in gaming that a girl joining the Slayers team won't prompt a mocking fanclub thread filled with derogatory comments. In that future, the only difference between a girl gamer and a boy gamer will be gender, which hopefully will prove to be an insignificant difference. | ||
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Ripps
Canada97 Posts
I don't think its possible to have gender bias in e-sports. Nobody really cares how big your fan club is or any of that. All that matters is results and evidence of skill. Like Day9 said in Daily #100: "If you lose, because its a game, it's not because 'Oh the Russian judge was just feeling angry' today." It's not because 'Oh there's this subjective rating system.' It's not 'agree to disagree'. You lost, straight-up, purely, truly and only because you did something wrong and he had superior mental strength and defeated you that way. But that also only means that when you win it's not because you got some cheap oppurtunity, it's not because your mommy and daddy had a lot of money and payed for you to do it, it's not because you had the right connections or because you were cheap or cheating. It is YOUR fault that you got that good at something that hard. And I think that has been the most instrumental thing that has made me appreciate ALL starcraft players as just incredible, incredible people" In Starcraft it doesn't matter who you are. Man, women, rich, poor. Doesn't matter. "Starcraft: The Great Equalizer". lol. | ||
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
On July 16 2011 07:14 craz3d wrote: If you want a real inspiration for women in a male dominated "sport," just look at chess. Judit Polgar is a woman who has won matches against top players including Garry Kasparov, arguably the greatest chess player ever. She was also the youngest grandmaster in history when she reached the rank. Reading this thread just makes me sad. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
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Eleaven
772 Posts
On July 16 2011 08:41 Aeruru wrote: I wasn't trying to be so literal in my comparison Going to Korea is a much much bigger commitment than a girl entering a regular tournament. I'm just trying to say that women-only tournaments help women create a support network that allow them to overcome the challenges that prevent more women from getting into competitive gaming.Imagine if there was a generous sponsor who was willing to fund decent sized BW tournaments in the US. The winners from these would be further sponsored to go to Korea as a team to compete there. This would generate excitement among US gamers and make them more willing to take the step to overcome the challenging language and cultural barriers. Sure people would ask "why should we watch a tournament of amateurs" but you can't deny that such a tournament would help build a US BW scene. So anyone who wants there to a US BW scene should support such a move even if the Korean pros are excluded. You ask why women gamers would feel odd going into online tournaments since they are anonymous. I think that women are fine entering online tournaments. Women-only tournaments aren't about giving women gamers an alternative to male tournaments. It's an addition to help build the community and increase the talent pool. We all want a day to come when we don't need women-only tournaments, a day when there are so many girls interested in gaming that a girl joining the Slayers team won't prompt a mocking fanclub thread filled with derogatory comments. In that future, the only difference between a girl gamer and a boy gamer will be gender, which hopefully will prove to be an insignificant difference. You shouldn't need incentives to want to do something for fun, you should want to do it for fun. We don't exclude Koreans because it's the antithesis of the spirit of competition. Again you draw the false comparison of the financial backing required to move to korea, and the language/culture barrier, and compare it to female only tournaments, in an anonymous online arena. I know you don't intend it literally, but i just can't grasp this illusory hurdle that seems entirely self imposed. If female wants to play sc2, she plays sc2? Same for a guy, there's absolutely nothing to do with "support groups" or "networks" when your new to something, nobody expects other people to make it easier for them when they are starting out. And if somebody does want to make it easier for new people to start out, why does it have to be gender biased? Does there have to be some 50-50 gender participation? Should we be handing out easy financial incentives to bring in more girls? Doesn't seem requisite to a healthy scene at all. If people want to play they will play? | ||
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Aeruru
United States22 Posts
I work in software so I have some experience being in a male-dominated environment. I've found that women-only events are a nice way for me to meet people who are more likely to share some of my more womanly interests. It helps make up for the times when I feel left out from a discussion about sports or beer >_< Maybe girls are just more socially oriented but my honest feeling is that these tournaments will help get more girls interested in competing. I think the people at Intel agree with me. | ||
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Eleaven
772 Posts
On July 16 2011 11:41 Aeruru wrote: I agree with you Eleaven in that Sc2 is a great game, and there's no need to provide incentives or to dumb the game down to encourage people to play. I disagree that nobody expects other people to make it easier for them when they're starting out. Isn't that what Day[9] is all about? I work in software so I have some experience being in a male-dominated environment. I've found that women-only events are a nice way for me to meet people who are more likely to share some of my more womanly interests. It helps make up for the times when I feel left out from a discussion about sports or beer >_< Maybe girls are just more socially oriented but my honest feeling is that these tournaments will help get more girls interested in competing. I think the people at Intel agree with me. edit: I left a long-winded reply as to why day9 isn't an expected service for a new player, it's a nice extra, but i didn't know who day9 was before i bought starcraft, i wasn't expecting gender exclusive services. I also addressed a bunch of other points on why excluding men in a equal playing field can lead to friction. At the end of the day, i realised i'll never convince anyone of anything on the internet(so i backspaced everything), and if you want to go ahead thinking that segregation is acceptable, let alone good in a scenario where everyone is completely equal. Well that's your opinion! gl with it! I'd love it if female sc2 communities didn't actively shun males though, You'll never see a competitive sc2 event that says "sorry ladies, men only" | ||
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