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unquestionable and unequivocally the more useful is the dude who does stuff.+ Show Spoiler +if working with the presented scenario/questions; else it's obviously the one who can do both
the only reason we humans(as a species) managed to get to this point in our evolution, is because throughout our history we had a bunch of people just doing things, while having no clue about their mechanics.
now, the only argument here is if one believes that there had to be examples presented to people(e.g. - monkey sees, monkey does) or they had to be taught what to do or/and how to do it case in which, the one who understands the mechanics/the example, enters the stage. you need one to make the other, of some sorts.
+ Show Spoiler +it's somewhat of a chicken and the egg argument. do you need an egg to make the chicken or a chicken to make an egg?. here, if you believe in a God you vote with the chicken and if you believe in evolution you vote with the egg. there are no right and wrongs at this stage of our meta.
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On June 16 2015 01:52 Buckyman wrote:
I think the easiest way to provide the energy is to exchange the water for an equal amount of mass from the moon. Whatever we use to deliver water from the space elevator to the moon delivers an equal amount of moon junk to the space elevator, which the elevator uses as a counterweight to help lift the next batch of water. Furthermore, if the water carrier can somehow elastically transfer momentum from the junk to the current batch of water, it also doesn't need to supply much energy.
Guys, you missed to solution to the energy problem. ^^
We just put a giant satellite at the stationary orbit in the middle bwteen the moon and the earth (there is such a thing, right?), give it huuuuuge rotating arms that reach to both the surface of earth and moon, and when the arms pass the surface, they drop of moon-material on earth while picking up water, and on the moon they drop of the water while picking up moon-material. ezpz. 5-10 years total tops.
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On June 16 2015 17:39 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2015 01:52 Buckyman wrote:
I think the easiest way to provide the energy is to exchange the water for an equal amount of mass from the moon. Whatever we use to deliver water from the space elevator to the moon delivers an equal amount of moon junk to the space elevator, which the elevator uses as a counterweight to help lift the next batch of water. Furthermore, if the water carrier can somehow elastically transfer momentum from the junk to the current batch of water, it also doesn't need to supply much energy.
Guys, you missed to solution to the energy problem. ^^ We just put a giant satellite at the stationary orbit in the middle bwteen the moon and the earth (there is such a thing, right?), give it huuuuuge rotating arms that reach to both the surface of earth and moon, and when the arms pass the surface, they drop of moon-material on earth while picking up water, and on the moon they drop of the water while picking up moon-material. ezpz. 5-10 years total tops.
- you'd still need balloons/something to shield the water else it'll evaporate/turn into ice(and crack your arms).
- you'd need to actively balance the weight + earth's g of one arm with the weight + moon's g on the other arm.
with the g differences, it could prove impossible to counterweight (you'd need some extreme speeds/accelerations or weight/mass on one arm and not the other then they'd have to switch the loads)
+ Show Spoiler +i'll make you all dream balloons
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That is indeed the best solution so far. The position you are talking about is the Earth-Moon L1 Lagrangian point. Since that one is unstable, you would require some stationkeeping to keep your station in place, but that should not be a big problem. It is also not geostationary (obviously), since it is always between the moon and the earth.
The biggest problem will still be dealing with a) atmospheric drag on the earth ocean scoop, and b) the fact that earth and moon are not at a constant distance from each other.
But at least it solves the problem with the gravitational potential energy, and is thus the most promising lead we have so far.
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The moonballoon in 3 easy steps:
1. Hollow out moon
2. Fill moon with hydrogen
3. Put on smile (The moon is now your bitch)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Esq22fg.jpg)
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On June 16 2015 19:17 Simberto wrote:
That is indeed the best solution so far. The position you are talking about is the Earth-Moon L1 Lagrangian point. Since that one is unstable, you would require some stationkeeping to keep your station in place, but that should not be a big problem. It is also not geostationary (obviously), since it is always between the moon and the earth.
The biggest problem will still be dealing with a) atmospheric drag on the earth ocean scoop, and b) the fact that earth and moon are not at a constant distance from each other.
But at least it solves the problem with the gravitational potential energy, and is thus the most promising lead we have so far.
based on Cascade's premise, 90% of his satellite with hugeee arms would not be in L1 but on the earth and on the moon.
this is a fairytale at best.
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On June 16 2015 23:06 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2015 19:17 Simberto wrote:
That is indeed the best solution so far. The position you are talking about is the Earth-Moon L1 Lagrangian point. Since that one is unstable, you would require some stationkeeping to keep your station in place, but that should not be a big problem. It is also not geostationary (obviously), since it is always between the moon and the earth.
The biggest problem will still be dealing with a) atmospheric drag on the earth ocean scoop, and b) the fact that earth and moon are not at a constant distance from each other.
But at least it solves the problem with the gravitational potential energy, and is thus the most promising lead we have so far. based on Cascade's premise, 90% of his satellite with hugeee arms would not be in L1 but on the earth and on the moon. this is a fairytale at best.
There are one or two technical difficulties with our current knowledge, but the only blocking one is to identify what the arms are made of so that they can both resist the strain and change their length at will. I'd prefer that we use a railway following the path the ends of the arms would take, with a chain of little wagons. Probably a moebius strip to account for the change of gravity midway, which looks cool.
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what would move along the moebius strip? ...
where would L1 be? ...
it can't work.
if you'll be able to vary the arm lengths you'll also have to be able to vary their weights(mid elevation) else you'll have the arms at the same lengths but one will be heavier. even if you get passed that and somehow fold an arm into the other one then vice-versa, you'll be screwed by the loads at the end of the arms.
the water was loaded at higher gravity(low mass), the lunar dust was loaded at lower gravity(higher mass). both loads were in equilibrium at initial load time(it's needed to keep the balance point at L1).
assuming you end up correcting and compensating for the arm length and weight, air drag, water drag and what not, you can not do it for the loads because when you flip the loads to dump them, you'll have the lunar dust at a higher gravity and the water at a lower gravity which will unbalance your whole machinery, killing its L1 eq point (basically. everything will fall to earth since the load with the lunar dust will be way heavier).
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The idea is to have one continuous strip of rail carts or whatever, which are moving all around the thingy. Which means that at the same time water is moving up from earth, moon dust of the same mass from an earlier pickup is moving down towards earth. And at the same time moon dust is moving up on the moon, water of the same mass is moving down on the moon, too.
Basically, to solve your problem, you only need to not compare the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on the moon, but the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on earth simultaneously. You might need to use some thrust while setting the whole thing up, but once it is set up (with all the magic requirements we discussed earlier), the difference in gravity between moon and earth is not a problem.
Also, L2 is behind the moon, you probably mean L1, which is between earth and moon.
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On June 17 2015 01:24 Simberto wrote:
The idea is to have one continuous strip of rail carts or whatever, which are moving all around the thingy. Which means that at the same time water is moving up from earth, moon dust of the same mass from an earlier pickup is moving down towards earth. And at the same time moon dust is moving up on the moon, water of the same mass is moving down on the moon, too.
Basically, to solve your problem, you only need to not compare the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on the moon, but the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on earth simultaneously. You might need to use some thrust while setting the whole thing up, but once it is set up (with all the magic requirements we discussed earlier), the difference in gravity between moon and earth is not a problem.
Also, L2 is behind the moon, you probably mean L1, which is between earth and moon.
(i meant L1, yes. my bad)
that part can not happen since you have to dump the water and the dust after the first go(or at least the water).
basically, you can not have 2 water loads at both ends or the rail because it defeats the whole exchange/water dumping on the moon thinggie we have goin' on here 
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3NE6JlR.jpg)
I drew a picture.
I forgot to link all of the train cars up, though. They should all be attached to each other with a long line with wheels at each end.
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On June 17 2015 01:32 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 01:24 Simberto wrote:
The idea is to have one continuous strip of rail carts or whatever, which are moving all around the thingy. Which means that at the same time water is moving up from earth, moon dust of the same mass from an earlier pickup is moving down towards earth. And at the same time moon dust is moving up on the moon, water of the same mass is moving down on the moon, too.
Basically, to solve your problem, you only need to not compare the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on the moon, but the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on earth simultaneously. You might need to use some thrust while setting the whole thing up, but once it is set up (with all the magic requirements we discussed earlier), the difference in gravity between moon and earth is not a problem.
Also, L2 is behind the moon, you probably mean L1, which is between earth and moon. (i meant L1, yes. my bad) that part can not happen since you have to dump the water and the dust after the first go(or at least the water). basically, you can not have 2 water loads at both ends or the rail because it defeats the whole exchange/water dumping on the moon thinggie we have goin' on here
No no no. You have people digging up moon dust, and shoveling it into mining carts. These same mining carts get filled with seawater on earth. Because moon dust is denser than water, the carts come back half full, but that is not a problem.
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On June 17 2015 01:32 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 01:24 Simberto wrote:
The idea is to have one continuous strip of rail carts or whatever, which are moving all around the thingy. Which means that at the same time water is moving up from earth, moon dust of the same mass from an earlier pickup is moving down towards earth. And at the same time moon dust is moving up on the moon, water of the same mass is moving down on the moon, too.
Basically, to solve your problem, you only need to not compare the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on the moon, but the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on earth simultaneously. You might need to use some thrust while setting the whole thing up, but once it is set up (with all the magic requirements we discussed earlier), the difference in gravity between moon and earth is not a problem.
Also, L2 is behind the moon, you probably mean L1, which is between earth and moon. (i meant L1, yes. my bad) that part can not happen since you have to dump the water and the dust after the first go(or at least the water). basically, you can not have 2 water loads at both ends or the rail because it defeats the whole exchange/water dumping on the moon thinggie we have goin' on here
Don't you need more mass of moon rocks than mass of water otherwise there will be no downward force to go against the upward force? (Assuming two clumps of the same mass stabilize each other balance wise)
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On June 17 2015 01:35 Simberto wrote:I drew a picture. I forgot to link all of the train cars up, though. They should all be attached to each other with a long line with wheels at each end.
meh, but then you have to use energy to move them ... (instead of using energy to move the water you also use energy to move the dust).
hmm, i don't really get that idea.
On June 17 2015 01:50 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 01:32 xM(Z wrote:On June 17 2015 01:24 Simberto wrote:
The idea is to have one continuous strip of rail carts or whatever, which are moving all around the thingy. Which means that at the same time water is moving up from earth, moon dust of the same mass from an earlier pickup is moving down towards earth. And at the same time moon dust is moving up on the moon, water of the same mass is moving down on the moon, too.
Basically, to solve your problem, you only need to not compare the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on the moon, but the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on earth simultaneously. You might need to use some thrust while setting the whole thing up, but once it is set up (with all the magic requirements we discussed earlier), the difference in gravity between moon and earth is not a problem.
Also, L2 is behind the moon, you probably mean L1, which is between earth and moon. (i meant L1, yes. my bad) that part can not happen since you have to dump the water and the dust after the first go(or at least the water). basically, you can not have 2 water loads at both ends or the rail because it defeats the whole exchange/water dumping on the moon thinggie we have goin' on here No no no. You have people digging up moon dust, and shoveling it into mining carts. These same mining carts get filled with seawater on earth. Because moon dust is denser than water, the carts come back half full, but that is not a problem.
well then, someone should tell those leprechaun-people that water can't even set on the moon. it will freeze, evaporate or just float around and around until it disappears into space along with our dreams.
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On June 17 2015 02:04 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 01:35 Simberto wrote:I drew a picture. I forgot to link all of the train cars up, though. They should all be attached to each other with a long line with wheels at each end. meh, but then you have to use energy to move them ... (instead of using energy to move the water you also use energy to move the dust). hmm, i don't really get that idea. Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 01:50 Acrofales wrote:On June 17 2015 01:32 xM(Z wrote:On June 17 2015 01:24 Simberto wrote:
The idea is to have one continuous strip of rail carts or whatever, which are moving all around the thingy. Which means that at the same time water is moving up from earth, moon dust of the same mass from an earlier pickup is moving down towards earth. And at the same time moon dust is moving up on the moon, water of the same mass is moving down on the moon, too.
Basically, to solve your problem, you only need to not compare the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on the moon, but the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on earth simultaneously. You might need to use some thrust while setting the whole thing up, but once it is set up (with all the magic requirements we discussed earlier), the difference in gravity between moon and earth is not a problem.
Also, L2 is behind the moon, you probably mean L1, which is between earth and moon. (i meant L1, yes. my bad) that part can not happen since you have to dump the water and the dust after the first go(or at least the water). basically, you can not have 2 water loads at both ends or the rail because it defeats the whole exchange/water dumping on the moon thinggie we have goin' on here No no no. You have people digging up moon dust, and shoveling it into mining carts. These same mining carts get filled with seawater on earth. Because moon dust is denser than water, the carts come back half full, but that is not a problem. well then, someone should tell those leprechaun-people that water can't even set on the moon. it will freeze, evaporate or just float around and around until it disappears into space along with our dreams.
What if we sent up chunks of the arctic/frozen blocks of ice instead?
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On June 17 2015 02:09 TMagpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 02:04 xM(Z wrote:On June 17 2015 01:35 Simberto wrote:I drew a picture. I forgot to link all of the train cars up, though. They should all be attached to each other with a long line with wheels at each end. meh, but then you have to use energy to move them ... (instead of using energy to move the water you also use energy to move the dust). hmm, i don't really get that idea. On June 17 2015 01:50 Acrofales wrote:On June 17 2015 01:32 xM(Z wrote:On June 17 2015 01:24 Simberto wrote:
The idea is to have one continuous strip of rail carts or whatever, which are moving all around the thingy. Which means that at the same time water is moving up from earth, moon dust of the same mass from an earlier pickup is moving down towards earth. And at the same time moon dust is moving up on the moon, water of the same mass is moving down on the moon, too.
Basically, to solve your problem, you only need to not compare the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on the moon, but the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on earth simultaneously. You might need to use some thrust while setting the whole thing up, but once it is set up (with all the magic requirements we discussed earlier), the difference in gravity between moon and earth is not a problem.
Also, L2 is behind the moon, you probably mean L1, which is between earth and moon. (i meant L1, yes. my bad) that part can not happen since you have to dump the water and the dust after the first go(or at least the water). basically, you can not have 2 water loads at both ends or the rail because it defeats the whole exchange/water dumping on the moon thinggie we have goin' on here No no no. You have people digging up moon dust, and shoveling it into mining carts. These same mining carts get filled with seawater on earth. Because moon dust is denser than water, the carts come back half full, but that is not a problem. well then, someone should tell those leprechaun-people that water can't even set on the moon. it will freeze, evaporate or just float around and around until it disappears into space along with our dreams. What if we sent up chunks of the arctic/frozen blocks of ice instead?
it won't matter what you sent out from here. the moon temperature varies between 120C and -150C so all you have to do is make sure the load lands on the side(s) with -150C (in the deep craters always in the shadows).
Edit: and since there is no crater big enough to fit a mass of 1.37 x 10^21 kg ...
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On June 17 2015 02:04 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 01:35 Simberto wrote:I drew a picture. I forgot to link all of the train cars up, though. They should all be attached to each other with a long line with wheels at each end. meh, but then you have to use energy to move them ... (instead of using energy to move the water you also use energy to move the dust). hmm, i don't really get that idea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator
Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 01:50 Acrofales wrote:On June 17 2015 01:32 xM(Z wrote:On June 17 2015 01:24 Simberto wrote:
The idea is to have one continuous strip of rail carts or whatever, which are moving all around the thingy. Which means that at the same time water is moving up from earth, moon dust of the same mass from an earlier pickup is moving down towards earth. And at the same time moon dust is moving up on the moon, water of the same mass is moving down on the moon, too.
Basically, to solve your problem, you only need to not compare the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on the moon, but the mass that is moving up on earth with the mass that is moving down on earth simultaneously. You might need to use some thrust while setting the whole thing up, but once it is set up (with all the magic requirements we discussed earlier), the difference in gravity between moon and earth is not a problem.
Also, L2 is behind the moon, you probably mean L1, which is between earth and moon. (i meant L1, yes. my bad) that part can not happen since you have to dump the water and the dust after the first go(or at least the water). basically, you can not have 2 water loads at both ends or the rail because it defeats the whole exchange/water dumping on the moon thinggie we have goin' on here No no no. You have people digging up moon dust, and shoveling it into mining carts. These same mining carts get filled with seawater on earth. Because moon dust is denser than water, the carts come back half full, but that is not a problem. well then, someone should tell those leprechaun-people that water can't even set on the moon. it will freeze, evaporate or just float around and around until it disappears into space along with our dreams.
Shouldn't float. Moon has gravity. Should just slosh a whole lot more than it does on earth if you can somehow keep it liquid. As for it evaporating into the atmosphere, I agree. This does not solve the water evaporating away problem. Will probably have to invest in special tanks to keep the water on the moon. Luckily our excavation crew of moon leprechauns can take care of that. Only have to fill the mine carts halfway, so that means it's a part-time job. The rest is building water tanks from moon rock.
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nah, the water will evaporate(then H2 will go bye bye) or turn into ice. it can't stay liquid.
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Man this is gonna be awesome. Once all the water is gone, you can just walk from Europe to America. Im gonna settle down at the Bengal Cone. No more overpopulation. No more war. And moon will be one big water park.
Once the technical details are fixed, it will be important that we find investors for this before someone else has the same idea..
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Agreed. We need to pool some money and buy a sufficiently large plot of land for our operations, before real estate gets too expensive.
https://www.moonestates.com
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EPT
