On May 28 2015 11:32 fruity. wrote: It seems a very biased system. What happens for example with cooks? I used to run in a grill (burgers etc generic fatty poor food, so It's not like I was a chef by any stretch of the imagination) It's sweaty hard work. And a semi interesting anecdote is that chefs actually have a lower sperm count due to the heat.
How about those washing dishes? Shitty low paid work to stand there and file plates through a machine or by hand. Aren't these guys and girls working hard too just like the front of house staff?
Those positions are paid at least the minimum wage though, combine that with no customer facing business=no tips.
On May 28 2015 11:32 fruity. wrote: It seems a very biased system. What happens for example with cooks? I used to run in a grill (burgers etc generic fatty poor food, so It's not like I was a chef by any stretch of the imagination) It's sweaty hard work. And a semi interesting anecdote is that chefs actually have a lower sperm count due to the heat.
How about those washing dishes? Shitty low paid work to stand there and file plates through a machine or by hand. Aren't these guys and girls working hard too just like the front of house staff?
Those positions are paid at least the minimum wage though...
Except that in many places they're illegals who aren't actually paid minimum wage, because they have basically no legal protection.
On May 28 2015 09:03 fruity. wrote: As a Limey I find this whole tipping thing weird. It seems totally unfair for anyone to have to rely on the generosity of others to make ends meat - especially in a job where you're working so hard in the first place.
What's the root of it? More money to management?
The cafe scene in Reservoir Dogs spring to mind - worlds smallest violin - and how some servers are deemed tip worthy yet others aren't.
I love that clip
Much of the rest of the world doesn't have this nonsensical idea of paying waiters below minimum wage and then making much of their salary dependent upon subjectivity x.x
On May 28 2015 11:32 fruity. wrote: It seems a very biased system. What happens for example with cooks? I used to run in a grill (burgers etc generic fatty poor food, so It's not like I was a chef by any stretch of the imagination) It's sweaty hard work. And a semi interesting anecdote is that chefs actually have a lower sperm count due to the heat.
How about those washing dishes? Shitty low paid work to stand there and file plates through a machine or by hand. Aren't these guys and girls working hard too just like the front of house staff?
Those positions are paid at least the minimum wage though...
Except that in many places they're illegals who aren't actually paid minimum wage, because they have basically no legal protection.
They can also use kids under 20 for up to 90 days for below minimum wage too.
On May 28 2015 11:32 fruity. wrote: It seems a very biased system. What happens for example with cooks? I used to run in a grill (burgers etc generic fatty poor food, so It's not like I was a chef by any stretch of the imagination) It's sweaty hard work. And a semi interesting anecdote is that chefs actually have a lower sperm count due to the heat.
How about those washing dishes? Shitty low paid work to stand there and file plates through a machine or by hand. Aren't these guys and girls working hard too just like the front of house staff?
Those positions are paid at least the minimum wage though...
Except that in many places they're illegals who aren't actually paid minimum wage, because they have basically no legal protection.
They can also use kids under 20 for up to 90 days for below minimum wage too.
those are high quality starter jobs for high school children getting a bit of work experience and saving money for their higher education.... it is such a good idea, i can't even express how much i like it
On May 28 2015 11:32 fruity. wrote: It seems a very biased system. What happens for example with cooks? I used to run in a grill (burgers etc generic fatty poor food, so It's not like I was a chef by any stretch of the imagination) It's sweaty hard work. And a semi interesting anecdote is that chefs actually have a lower sperm count due to the heat.
How about those washing dishes? Shitty low paid work to stand there and file plates through a machine or by hand. Aren't these guys and girls working hard too just like the front of house staff?
Those positions are paid at least the minimum wage though...
Except that in many places they're illegals who aren't actually paid minimum wage, because they have basically no legal protection.
They can also use kids under 20 for up to 90 days for below minimum wage too.
those are high quality starter jobs for high school children getting a bit of work experience and saving money for their higher education.... it is such a good idea, i can't even express how much i like it
On May 28 2015 11:32 fruity. wrote: It seems a very biased system. What happens for example with cooks? I used to run in a grill (burgers etc generic fatty poor food, so It's not like I was a chef by any stretch of the imagination) It's sweaty hard work. And a semi interesting anecdote is that chefs actually have a lower sperm count due to the heat.
How about those washing dishes? Shitty low paid work to stand there and file plates through a machine or by hand. Aren't these guys and girls working hard too just like the front of house staff?
Those positions are paid at least the minimum wage though...
Except that in many places they're illegals who aren't actually paid minimum wage, because they have basically no legal protection.
They can also use kids under 20 for up to 90 days for below minimum wage too.
those are high quality starter jobs for high school children getting a bit of work experience and saving money for their higher education.... it is such a good idea, i can't even express how much i like it
Is this sarcasm?
I don't think it is... I agree with the idea that getting some (even remotely basic) work experience can absolutely help high school kids mature and build responsibility, even if the pay isn't great.
On May 28 2015 11:32 fruity. wrote: It seems a very biased system. What happens for example with cooks? I used to run in a grill (burgers etc generic fatty poor food, so It's not like I was a chef by any stretch of the imagination) It's sweaty hard work. And a semi interesting anecdote is that chefs actually have a lower sperm count due to the heat.
How about those washing dishes? Shitty low paid work to stand there and file plates through a machine or by hand. Aren't these guys and girls working hard too just like the front of house staff?
Those positions are paid at least the minimum wage though...
Except that in many places they're illegals who aren't actually paid minimum wage, because they have basically no legal protection.
They can also use kids under 20 for up to 90 days for below minimum wage too.
those are high quality starter jobs for high school children getting a bit of work experience and saving money for their higher education.... it is such a good idea, i can't even express how much i like it
Is this sarcasm?
I don't think it is... I agree with the idea that getting some (even remotely basic) work experience can absolutely help high school kids mature and build responsibility, even if the pay isn't great.
Ofc it is sarcasm. While i agree with you that experience is a good thing to get, and will help getting ahead, the price of this kind of a race to the bottom is to big to pay, in my opinion
On May 28 2015 12:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I love that clip
Great film, gonna find the time to watch it again I think! Been on a comedy tip recently. Rewatching (for the 100th time) Airplane I & II and the Naked Gun series. So silly, but so great. Still bust a gut watching them.
On May 28 2015 11:32 fruity. wrote: It seems a very biased system. What happens for example with cooks? I used to run in a grill (burgers etc generic fatty poor food, so It's not like I was a chef by any stretch of the imagination) It's sweaty hard work. And a semi interesting anecdote is that chefs actually have a lower sperm count due to the heat.
How about those washing dishes? Shitty low paid work to stand there and file plates through a machine or by hand. Aren't these guys and girls working hard too just like the front of house staff?
Those positions are paid at least the minimum wage though...
Except that in many places they're illegals who aren't actually paid minimum wage, because they have basically no legal protection.
They can also use kids under 20 for up to 90 days for below minimum wage too.
those are high quality starter jobs for high school children getting a bit of work experience and saving money for their higher education.... it is such a good idea, i can't even express how much i like it
Is this sarcasm?
I don't think it is... I agree with the idea that getting some (even remotely basic) work experience can absolutely help high school kids mature and build responsibility, even if the pay isn't great.
Ofc it is sarcasm. While i agree with you that experience is a good thing to get, and will help getting ahead, the price of this kind of a race to the bottom is to big to pay, in my opinion
Well I certainly think that the minimum wage should be higher- and that jobs should obviously need to pay at least minimum wage (for it to mean anything to begin with)... what exactly do you mean by a race to the bottom?
On May 28 2015 12:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I love that clip
Great film, gonna find the time to watch it again I think! Been on a comedy tip recently. Rewatching (for the 100th time) Airplane I & II and the Naked Gun series. So silly, but so great. Still bust a gut watching them.
The person you are tipping. Isn't the place forced to pay minimum wage for their time? So if they get $2 tips per hour the place pays them $2 less in wage, ending up at the same total.
On May 28 2015 11:32 fruity. wrote: It seems a very biased system. What happens for example with cooks? I used to run in a grill (burgers etc generic fatty poor food, so It's not like I was a chef by any stretch of the imagination) It's sweaty hard work. And a semi interesting anecdote is that chefs actually have a lower sperm count due to the heat.
How about those washing dishes? Shitty low paid work to stand there and file plates through a machine or by hand. Aren't these guys and girls working hard too just like the front of house staff?
Those positions are paid at least the minimum wage though...
Except that in many places they're illegals who aren't actually paid minimum wage, because they have basically no legal protection.
They can also use kids under 20 for up to 90 days for below minimum wage too.
those are high quality starter jobs for high school children getting a bit of work experience and saving money for their higher education.... it is such a good idea, i can't even express how much i like it
Is this sarcasm?
I don't think it is... I agree with the idea that getting some (even remotely basic) work experience can absolutely help high school kids mature and build responsibility, even if the pay isn't great.
Ofc it is sarcasm. While i agree with you that experience is a good thing to get, and will help getting ahead, the price of this kind of a race to the bottom is to big to pay, in my opinion
Well I certainly think that the minimum wage should be higher- and that jobs should obviously need to pay at least minimum wage (for it to mean anything to begin with)... what exactly do you mean by a race to the bottom?
When you allow rules circumventing the minimum wage you encourage more and more exceptions because every person in charge of a business will want some of that sweet sweet super cheap labor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_bottom
Most countries other than USA don't really give a shit if customers tip or not. Do you guys think this tipping culture is good or bullshit?
I personally think it's bullshit. They are being paid to serve me. They applied to work there to serve me. Who gives a fuck if they make less than minimum wage. That's their problem for working there. Most of them are fake as shit and I can see it in their smile that they don't wanna be there on a Friday night at 8pm. I personally think that waiters and waitresses should never be tipped unless they do something really special for you.
The minimum wage and tipping is a tricky one. On one hand it shouldn't be encouraged to employ below minimum wage, but on the other hand it is hard to motivate why a minimum wage + tips waiter should earn more than the minimum wage kitchen helper.
Maybe a more fair system would be to split the tips over all the staff? A kind of bonus system on top of the minimum wage or something. That way everyone, including the kitchen staff, would have an incentive to make every customer happy, rather than only the waiters being interested in only their customers.
Back in my youth, I got a part time (then briefly full time) Job in McDonalds. Ironically I think it was my work there which later helped me get work on a grill.. Anyway. The one I worked at was in a train station, and closed around 10pm each night. As the shift was winding down the junior trainee manager asked me to sort out the stock room which held all the paper goods, milk shake concentrates etc etc. This took ages, the place was a bomb site. Must of taken me 2 or 3 hours beyond the end of the shift to do. Junior fuck face knew I was still there - and asked me to do it in the first place.
Later when I got the check I asked why I hadn't been credited with the overtime. And frankly got a bullshit answer about balancing the books. I surmise they have a fixed amount per week which can be allocated for wages. As a stupid ignorant kid, I just took it, and moved on. These days I'd throw a fit and head straight for a Union. Overtime should be paid, fuck you needing to balance the books, asking me to sort it out, knowing I was still working after the shift ended etc.
So I have to point out that even being on minimum wage, there has to be a lot of cases around the globe where people work, yet don't get paid, with the management taking advantage of employing the young. A lot of employees seemed to be from the mainland EU - working there legally - and again these guys and girls might not know the law, or even wish to fight for their rights (like myself back then).
On May 28 2015 15:07 Cascade wrote: The minimum wage and tipping is a tricky one. On one hand it shouldn't be encouraged to employ below minimum wage, but on the other hand it is hard to motivate why a minimum wage + tips waiter should earn more than the minimum wage kitchen helper.
Maybe a more fair system would be to split the tips over all the staff? A kind of bonus system on top of the minimum wage or something. That way everyone, including the kitchen staff, would have an incentive to make every customer happy, rather than only the waiters being interested in only their customers.
I worked at a bar in the kitchen, most servers and bartenders think it's unfair, and in a bar, the management works in the bar, as well as servers and bartenders heavily outnumber the kitchen staff. I think I received like $60 dollars in tips for 6 shifts or something stupid like that.
Anyway, it's a difficult situation. I tip lower than most people, and think tipping culture is really stupid. But at the same time, if you stop tipping, then you will just look like an asshole, and piss off another person, as well as potentially have an argument at your table... And pretty much make it that the person who served you made $9/hour where I live.
So like... In an ideal world, EVERYONE would stop tipping, and then either salaries would have to be raised, or nobody would work in bars. The matter of fact is, I have had friends, and they'd make $500-$1000 working as bartenders in one night, even though they are getting paid $1 below minimum wage... So sure, might be minimum wage, but still a very lucrative job.
I honestly can't think of a higher paying job to do throughout university part time, than being a server at a bar. I worked at a kitchen, making $16/hour, I did cellphone repair, I was eventually a chef during a summer... The money is garbage compared to working in clubs and bars. I worked with a 22 year old bartender who drove a GTR to work, guy didn't even finish high school.... Construction? Pfft, even if you could find a construction job, the best you could do is a roofer and make $20-$23/hour. Bank jobs were $12-15 per hour, and yeah.
A server at the right restaurant or bar can take home between 80-200k a year, which is just absurd to me. And, people like to call serving/bartending hard, it's really not. Sure, people will bitch about, just like teachers will bitch about what they do. But do you really think it's easier than nailing shingles to a roof for 10 hours, working 12-14 hour shifts in the oil sands in -30- -50C weather? Or working in an engineering job where you have to do 5 hours of reading and studying once you get home just to keep up with what's going on every day? Or having stress by having to make huge decisions which could mean the bankruptcy of your company or success?.... Serving is easier than most jobs, little thinking involved, you simply need to not be too emotional, and be able to deal with people, that's what most people will tell you.
Maybe a more fair system would be to split the tips over all the staff? A kind of bonus system on top of the minimum wage or something. That way everyone, including the kitchen staff, would have an incentive to make every customer happy, rather than only the waiters being interested in only their customers.
As far as I know, at least some restaurants do this. I imagine that it's not a consistent thing, though.
Maybe a more fair system would be to split the tips over all the staff? A kind of bonus system on top of the minimum wage or something. That way everyone, including the kitchen staff, would have an incentive to make every customer happy, rather than only the waiters being interested in only their customers.
As far as I know, at least some restaurants do this. I imagine that it's not a consistent thing, though.
I know asian restaurants where management keep all tips.
Anyway, tip sharing is a little bit like communism I guess, because you have little incentive to work hard, as if you are lazy, you will still get a significant amount of tips... I think kitchen staff are fine not getting tips, just a larger salary (like in my case).
Again, tipping should just not exist. And I don't know about you guys, but tipping here is becoming silly.
There is a tip option when I go to subway... WTF? There is a tip option when I take a cab... Am I supposed to give you more because you didn't crash? There is a tip option when I get a haircut... Because you asked me how my day was? No thanks
It really is silly, the only time I'd give a tip is if the person truly goes out of their way to do something to keep me pleased, a special treatment if you will.
On May 28 2015 15:07 Cascade wrote: The minimum wage and tipping is a tricky one. On one hand it shouldn't be encouraged to employ below minimum wage, but on the other hand it is hard to motivate why a minimum wage + tips waiter should earn more than the minimum wage kitchen helper.
Maybe a more fair system would be to split the tips over all the staff? A kind of bonus system on top of the minimum wage or something. That way everyone, including the kitchen staff, would have an incentive to make every customer happy, rather than only the waiters being interested in only their customers.
And how can managers check if the waiter/waitress pockets the money or not? I guess the customer should only be allowed to tip in a tip jar at the register or something? I don't know. There is no way to micromanage every single little action like pocketing tip money. Your idea sounds kinda okay in theory but would be extremely difficult to execute and maintain.
And don't say honor system bullshit. In this day and age, nobody is honest. I say just remove the whole tipping bullshit and give waiters/waitresses minimum wage and let promotions to like 'Waiter II' happen and shit like that. Tipping is fucking retarded and I never do it because I firmly believe that waiters don't even deserve it.
EPT
