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On June 22 2011 05:11 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:10 Nightfly wrote:On June 22 2011 04:51 Bibdy wrote:On June 22 2011 04:45 Nero. wrote:
i dont get why americans are trying so hard to not get a statutory health insurance system.
In most of Europe we have it for such a long time and nobody here is walking around in chains or lost their freedom because of it
it just feels like the states act very "medieval" about this topic
Because America, being the beacon of capitalism, has this propensity to believe that EVERYTHING should be run by private organizations, rather than the government. They don't take the time to realize that when you take an industry like healthcare and put it in the hands of financiers, accountants, corporations and general bean-counters who's only concern is profitability, you've completely eliminated humanity and compassion from the equation. Capitalism works great when you've got products/services to sell. Not so great when someone's livelihood is on the line. rofl. dont you need food as well to survive? can you buy food from CORPORATIONS or do you need it provided by your friendly government? The corporations are the middle-man, they're not doing very nice things to the bovine industry, dairy or agriculture industry. Good try.
You missed his point entirely. The test for market failure isn't whether or not the product is required to live. The food market is in fact quite competitive, with a range of quality and prices. There isn't really any market failure there except the general one of pollution, which exists in all markets.
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United States42979 Posts
On June 22 2011 05:08 On_Slaught wrote:
Didn't take long for this to turn into a US bashing thread. Is this a sad reality? Yes. Is EU style healthcare workable in a country the size of the US? Lol. Are there worse things that could happen? Yes.
Sadly we are a long ways from having a workable health care system that doesn't cause prices to rise.
The EU is bigger than the US. Of course we're broken up into dozens of smaller countries which do things their own way but equally you guys are a federal state. The current system is broken, I think everyone can agree on that. It is neither free market nor public and the deep divisions and prejudices within American society keep it broken.
End of the day, the problem is with the American people and their ability to cripple politician's attempts to fix it. That's not US bashing.
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On June 22 2011 04:51 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 04:45 Nero. wrote:
i dont get why americans are trying so hard to not get a statutory health insurance system.
In most of Europe we have it for such a long time and nobody here is walking around in chains or lost their freedom because of it
it just feels like the states act very "medieval" about this topic
Because America, being the beacon of capitalism, has this propensity to believe that EVERYTHING should be run by private organizations, rather than the government. They don't take the time to realize that when you take an industry like healthcare and put it in the hands of financiers, accountants, corporations and general bean-counters who's only concern is profitability, you've completely eliminated humanity and compassion from the equation. Capitalism works great when you've got products/services to sell. Not so great when someone's livelihood is on the line.
It also doesn't help when the products they used to sell are no longer made in that country. Also the reason why there is so much hate on the idea of health care within the government is because a lot of people in power are backed/sponsored by healthcare companies. Just goes to show you how bad America screwed up, what happened to all those who wanted things for the betterment of their country, not the fattening of their wallets?
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On June 22 2011 05:14 wzzit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:09 domovoi wrote:On June 22 2011 04:56 wzzit wrote:On June 22 2011 04:50 trainRiderJ wrote:
Where I live the people without insurance just use the emergency room or a free clinic. Do they not have those in New York? In what part of the country are emergency rooms free of cost? All of them? Well, they'll send you a bill but they can't force you to pay them. It will ruin your credit, but so does going to jail. Dude... what? Emergency rooms are free because you can ruin your credit/go to jail instead of paying for them? Is that what you're trying to tell me? I guess in your mind everything in society is free because you can always ruin your credit instead of paying!
Err, you cannot go to jail for not paying your debt. And, no, most services are not rendered if you cannot prove you have enough money and/or credit to pay for it. Emergency room services are one of the exceptions. They'll treat you without any proof of insurance or ability to pay.
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Well Germany isn't really small you know.
you could drop what about 30 germanys into the US?
I could state the obvious that if the majority of the budget wouldn't go to the military than I'm sure that you could work something out.Hey,maybe even throw in a free college education in there
umm the us had a 3.5 trillion dollar budget or something about 1/5 of it went to the military 1/5 to running the domestic government and 3/5 into entitlement programs and various subsidies and welfare programs and education spending and all kinds of stuff
this kind of ignorance about the usa is just really widespread
and hey guess what we spend all that money so that when 'the world' demands something or done or we actually fight for our own interest we can do it, libya has shown that they sure as hell can't do it themselves.
dont whine about our military spending when europe drags us into libya and shows exactly why we have to spend that much, because europe wont spend enough.
canada is a nice change from this though they have a realistic defense budget for what they think their interests are
Capitalism works great when you've got products/services to sell. Not so great when someone's livelihood is on the line.
extending human life and combating disease and injury is something that people have shown they will spend great amounts of money on
so to you sir i must say herp derp
cus that sounds like just the kind of thing capitalism loves
or more accurately the market, nationalized health care systems have the same struggles with containing costs. the market cares not for your schemes and bureaucrats.
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On June 22 2011 05:10 Nightfly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 04:51 Bibdy wrote:On June 22 2011 04:45 Nero. wrote:
i dont get why americans are trying so hard to not get a statutory health insurance system.
In most of Europe we have it for such a long time and nobody here is walking around in chains or lost their freedom because of it
it just feels like the states act very "medieval" about this topic
Because America, being the beacon of capitalism, has this propensity to believe that EVERYTHING should be run by private organizations, rather than the government. They don't take the time to realize that when you take an industry like healthcare and put it in the hands of financiers, accountants, corporations and general bean-counters who's only concern is profitability, you've completely eliminated humanity and compassion from the equation. Capitalism works great when you've got products/services to sell. Not so great when someone's livelihood is on the line. rofl. dont you need food as well to survive? can you buy food from CORPORATIONS or do you need it provided by your friendly government?
True, but its not likely that I will suddenly run out of food out of events that are entirely beyond my control (or if I did, we just got hit by a big fuckoff natural disaster and everyone else did as well, so we're in the same boat together). If some douchebag runs a red light and puts me in hospital, the situation suddenly boils down to how much money I should pay to fix a problem caused by some other asshole.
What's wrong with society pooling together to help its least fortunate? I don't see why people should be penalized just for being unlucky enough to get caught in an accident. We're really that terrified of that 1% of douchebags in society that will try to scam the system, to lift a finger to help the rest? Call me crazy, but when a small handful of assholes at high school abused the school gym equipment, causing them to disallow anyone else to use it unsupervised, I thought that was completely bullshit.
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On June 22 2011 04:37 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 04:34 Razith wrote:
So what happened to all his money? Why couldn't he afford health care in the first place? Why does it matter? Better this way than him actually going out and robbing people. His situation was only going to deteriorate until death or crime, his solution is, as he said, logical.
It matters because thats what put him in this situation; no money for his medical bills. Are the majority of Americans without some sort of medical insurance? Are the Americans here on TL.net without medical insurance?
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On June 22 2011 04:51 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 04:45 Nero. wrote:
i dont get why americans are trying so hard to not get a statutory health insurance system.
In most of Europe we have it for such a long time and nobody here is walking around in chains or lost their freedom because of it
it just feels like the states act very "medieval" about this topic
Because America, being the beacon of capitalism, has this propensity to believe that EVERYTHING should be run by private organizations, rather than the government. They don't take the time to realize that when you take an industry like healthcare and put it in the hands of financiers, accountants, corporations and general bean-counters who's only concern is profitability, you've completely eliminated humanity and compassion from the equation. Capitalism works great when you've got products/services to sell. Not so great when someone's livelihood is on the line.
This, this and this!
The main purpose and goal of a nations healthcare must ALWAYS be to make people healthier, not to make money.
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On June 22 2011 05:15 Noped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:08 On_Slaught wrote:
Didn't take long for this to turn into a US bashing thread. Is this a sad reality? Yes. Is EU style healthcare workable in a country the size of the US? Lol. Are there worse things that could happen? Yes.
Sadly we are a long ways from having a workable health care system that doesn't cause prices to rise. It's really only because of people in a state of mind like this that a "workable" health care system doesn't already exist in the US. "Doesn't cause prices to rise" is as generic and short sighted as you can possibly get on the subject. Prices of what? Are you talking about taxes? Government spending? Are you talking about the price of insurance itself? You'll never have a progressive community as long as it's citizens continually think that "we are a long ways" from something that is realistically feasible in every way. How closed minded can we get?
Do you know what the national debt of the US currently is^^?
He is right when he says it can't be done yet.The problem is no one wants to even touch the root problem of the monetary system that is in America right now.
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On June 22 2011 05:11 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:10 Nightfly wrote:On June 22 2011 04:51 Bibdy wrote:On June 22 2011 04:45 Nero. wrote:
i dont get why americans are trying so hard to not get a statutory health insurance system.
In most of Europe we have it for such a long time and nobody here is walking around in chains or lost their freedom because of it
it just feels like the states act very "medieval" about this topic
Because America, being the beacon of capitalism, has this propensity to believe that EVERYTHING should be run by private organizations, rather than the government. They don't take the time to realize that when you take an industry like healthcare and put it in the hands of financiers, accountants, corporations and general bean-counters who's only concern is profitability, you've completely eliminated humanity and compassion from the equation. Capitalism works great when you've got products/services to sell. Not so great when someone's livelihood is on the line. rofl. dont you need food as well to survive? can you buy food from CORPORATIONS or do you need it provided by your friendly government? The corporations are the middle-man, they're not doing very nice things to the bovine industry, dairy or agriculture industry. Good try.
are you saying you have trouble buying food? do you want the government to provide food to all people? if not, why not, when it's clear that our very lives depend on food?
corporations are not the middle-men... do you think it's the government that actually sells the food?
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On June 22 2011 05:13 Dagobert wrote:
Whoever needs medical care here gets it. Not only if they can pay for it, but simply because we have chosen to create a society where we, if we somehow ended up like that guy, would receive the same support he does now.
Just because it works there doesn't mean it will work here. We just spend way too much on military and our welfare programs are a complete joke. Spend two years shoplifting and getting evicted from apartments to support your meth habit and then have a baby and be rewarded welfare money for it. That is life in the US. Pretty much everything here is fucked up there is no simple way to fix it and it has been the government doing it us for a long time, they are not going to help without a drastic change in leadership, both parties just fight over who gets to fuck us.
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On June 22 2011 05:18 Razith wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 04:37 KwarK wrote:On June 22 2011 04:34 Razith wrote:
So what happened to all his money? Why couldn't he afford health care in the first place? Why does it matter? Better this way than him actually going out and robbing people. His situation was only going to deteriorate until death or crime, his solution is, as he said, logical. It matters because thats what put him in this situation; no money for his medical bills. Are the majority of Americans without some sort of medical insurance? Are the Americans here on TL.net without medical insurance?
The vast majority of Americans are covered by insurance and/or government programs. The real problem in America is the huge rises in healthcare costs.
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On June 22 2011 05:20 Nightfly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:11 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 22 2011 05:10 Nightfly wrote:On June 22 2011 04:51 Bibdy wrote:On June 22 2011 04:45 Nero. wrote:
i dont get why americans are trying so hard to not get a statutory health insurance system.
In most of Europe we have it for such a long time and nobody here is walking around in chains or lost their freedom because of it
it just feels like the states act very "medieval" about this topic
Because America, being the beacon of capitalism, has this propensity to believe that EVERYTHING should be run by private organizations, rather than the government. They don't take the time to realize that when you take an industry like healthcare and put it in the hands of financiers, accountants, corporations and general bean-counters who's only concern is profitability, you've completely eliminated humanity and compassion from the equation. Capitalism works great when you've got products/services to sell. Not so great when someone's livelihood is on the line. rofl. dont you need food as well to survive? can you buy food from CORPORATIONS or do you need it provided by your friendly government? The corporations are the middle-man, they're not doing very nice things to the bovine industry, dairy or agriculture industry. Good try. are you saying you have trouble buying food? do you want the government to provide food to all people? if not, why not, when it's clear that our very lives depend on food? corporations are not the middle-men... do you think it's the government that actually sells the food?
The government doesn't actually provide anything, they only take and redistribute, oh and they get fucking rich beyond imagination in the process.
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On June 22 2011 05:18 domovoi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:14 wzzit wrote:On June 22 2011 05:09 domovoi wrote:On June 22 2011 04:56 wzzit wrote:On June 22 2011 04:50 trainRiderJ wrote:
Where I live the people without insurance just use the emergency room or a free clinic. Do they not have those in New York? In what part of the country are emergency rooms free of cost? All of them? Well, they'll send you a bill but they can't force you to pay them. It will ruin your credit, but so does going to jail. Dude... what? Emergency rooms are free because you can ruin your credit/go to jail instead of paying for them? Is that what you're trying to tell me? I guess in your mind everything in society is free because you can always ruin your credit instead of paying! Err, you cannot go to jail for not paying your debt. And, no, most services are not rendered if you cannot prove you have enough money and/or credit to pay for it. Emergency room services are one of the exceptions. They'll treat you without any proof of insurance or ability to pay.
Yes, but that doesn't change my original point. Going to an emergency room is not free of cost. If you can't pay, your credit will be ruined.
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On June 22 2011 05:18 NotSupporting wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 04:51 Bibdy wrote:On June 22 2011 04:45 Nero. wrote:
i dont get why americans are trying so hard to not get a statutory health insurance system.
In most of Europe we have it for such a long time and nobody here is walking around in chains or lost their freedom because of it
it just feels like the states act very "medieval" about this topic
Because America, being the beacon of capitalism, has this propensity to believe that EVERYTHING should be run by private organizations, rather than the government. They don't take the time to realize that when you take an industry like healthcare and put it in the hands of financiers, accountants, corporations and general bean-counters who's only concern is profitability, you've completely eliminated humanity and compassion from the equation. Capitalism works great when you've got products/services to sell. Not so great when someone's livelihood is on the line. This, this and this! The main purpose and goal of a nations healthcare must ALWAYS be to make people healthier, not to make money.
Unfortunately, healthcare and healthcare innovation cannot exist without money. You're not gonna find many doctors willing to work for free.
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On June 22 2011 05:22 wzzit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:18 domovoi wrote:On June 22 2011 05:14 wzzit wrote:On June 22 2011 05:09 domovoi wrote:On June 22 2011 04:56 wzzit wrote:On June 22 2011 04:50 trainRiderJ wrote:
Where I live the people without insurance just use the emergency room or a free clinic. Do they not have those in New York? In what part of the country are emergency rooms free of cost? All of them? Well, they'll send you a bill but they can't force you to pay them. It will ruin your credit, but so does going to jail. Dude... what? Emergency rooms are free because you can ruin your credit/go to jail instead of paying for them? Is that what you're trying to tell me? I guess in your mind everything in society is free because you can always ruin your credit instead of paying! Err, you cannot go to jail for not paying your debt. And, no, most services are not rendered if you cannot prove you have enough money and/or credit to pay for it. Emergency room services are one of the exceptions. They'll treat you without any proof of insurance or ability to pay. Yes, but that doesn't change my original point. Going to an emergency room is not free of cost. If you can't pay, your credit will be ruined.
It's a better option than going to jail, which was the main point. Honestly, bad credit is probably not much of a worry given that people in such dire straights will most likely have outstanding credit card debt, which is far worse than hospital debt.
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It matters because thats what put him in this situation; no money for his medical bills. Are the majority of Americans without some sort of medical insurance? Are the Americans here on TL.net without medical insurance?
about 20% of americans are without some form of health insurance
these are easy statistics to find try to find out on your own before asking misconceived questions
i have no money for a place to sleep but i cant or wont meet the conditions necessary to get government housing
i go rob a convenience store to get into jail to have a place to live
is this an indictment of me or the system?
this guy sounds like he's not very smart, from what the msnbc story says he would have qualified for some kind of state or federal public health insurance
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On June 22 2011 05:18 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:10 Nightfly wrote:On June 22 2011 04:51 Bibdy wrote:On June 22 2011 04:45 Nero. wrote:
i dont get why americans are trying so hard to not get a statutory health insurance system.
In most of Europe we have it for such a long time and nobody here is walking around in chains or lost their freedom because of it
it just feels like the states act very "medieval" about this topic
Because America, being the beacon of capitalism, has this propensity to believe that EVERYTHING should be run by private organizations, rather than the government. They don't take the time to realize that when you take an industry like healthcare and put it in the hands of financiers, accountants, corporations and general bean-counters who's only concern is profitability, you've completely eliminated humanity and compassion from the equation. Capitalism works great when you've got products/services to sell. Not so great when someone's livelihood is on the line. rofl. dont you need food as well to survive? can you buy food from CORPORATIONS or do you need it provided by your friendly government? True, but its not likely that I will suddenly run out of food out of events that are entirely beyond my control (or if I did, we just got hit by a big fuckoff natural disaster and everyone else did as well, so we're in the same boat together). If some douchebag runs a red light and puts me in hospital, the situation suddenly boils down to how much money I should pay to fix a problem caused by some other asshole. What's wrong with society pooling together to help its least fortunate? I don't see why people should be penalized just for being unlucky enough to get caught in an accident. We're really that terrified of that 1% of douchebags in society that will try to scam the system, to lift a finger to help the rest? Call me crazy, but when a small handful of assholes at high school abused the school gym equipment, causing them to disallow anyone else to use it unsupervised, I thought that was completely bullshit.
nothing wrong with that.
what's wrong with me coming up to you with a gun and forcing you to pay my hospital bill?
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On June 22 2011 05:21 domovoi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:18 Razith wrote:On June 22 2011 04:37 KwarK wrote:On June 22 2011 04:34 Razith wrote:
So what happened to all his money? Why couldn't he afford health care in the first place? Why does it matter? Better this way than him actually going out and robbing people. His situation was only going to deteriorate until death or crime, his solution is, as he said, logical. It matters because thats what put him in this situation; no money for his medical bills. Are the majority of Americans without some sort of medical insurance? Are the Americans here on TL.net without medical insurance? The vast majority of Americans are covered by insurance and/or government programs. The real problem in America is the huge rises in healthcare costs.
So I fail to see any sympothay for this guy. He's 59 without any money and without any sort of medical insurance and its America's problem? Since when did life and financial planning fall into the resposibility of the government?
What are the major causes of these rises in healthcare costs?
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Anyone who still thinks private corporations run healthcare in the USA doesn't have a damn clue and has never tried to run a private practice. The government controls everything, that is why prices are so high, well...one of the many reasons.
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