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On June 23 2011 03:16 teekesselchen wrote:
It is degrading for a rich country like the U.S. to care of their weakest that poorly. I am glad that man did such a thing, and hope he will be followed by many others, to use this exploit to such an amount that there will finally health care for everyone.
Maybe Germans shouldn't be so condescending about PHC.
We're in a fine situation right now, but this could change within months, once the Euro fails (which seems to be an actual possibility as of now).
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On June 23 2011 03:37 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +
Edit: Wow, now I get it. You're being partisan about all this with that Democrat comment. This is exactly the stonewall in America we're dealing with, as soon as you become convinced it's a liberal you're talking to you shut down and get angry. 3 word sentences don't constitute a valid answer by the way, and you REALLY need to do some proper research.
I'm simply stating facts. Look at which companies are getting Obamacare waivers. Look at how the UAW got an illegal stock deal when Chrysler and GM were bailed out. If the GOP was practicing crony capitalism I'd say it too, but they haven't yet, so I won't. You go do some research. Show nested quote +
Notice how I managed to refute your poor understanding of the situation without calling it totally fucking ridiculous? Take notes child.
Now watch this! Show nested quote +Hmm, someone sounds angry. Classic American response to being challenged by ideas you don't like or understand. Classic response to repeated ignorance you mean. Nice to see how you think using stereotypes constitutes a good argument, your "child" remark is looking really good now. Show nested quote +I'm sorry you don't believe fiction has any relevance to real life; that's your loss. *yawn* I didn't say that, I said Slaughterhouse-5's assertions are wrong. Show nested quote +The poor are in the majority as a statistic, and no I'm not going to waste time digging it up for your ignorant ass. I actually looked the statistics up. If we accept your definition of poor then how many people in Europe are poor? Can't afford private education means you're poor? Okay, you're ridiculous. By any reasonable definition the poor are in the minority, the rich are in an even smaller minority, and the majority reside in the middle class of income. Show nested quote +You can find it yourself if you're so sure you're right. I can tell how the poor think because I can see them voting against their own financial interests in every election. *yawn* You're just so smart, you've figured out people's interests better than they can! "Mystification." Show nested quote +Vonnegut helped me understand what I was seeing in the real world, which by the way is the point of political commentary that happens to be in the form of fiction. I disagree with that understanding, and you are a silly person for imagining yourself to be intellectual when you use strawmen and such silly definitions of words and the argument you are using with fiction is so broad and general that it is almost ludicrous. Fiction is good commentary when it is accurate; Slaughterhouse-5 isn't accurate. Now who's being defensive? Just because I've read Vonnegut and don't have the belief in its message you do, you're getting really defensive about how smart you are and dumb I am. Interesting!
Watch this: Halliburton defense contracts Iraq George Bush Cheney blah blah blah fucking blah. Oh yeah you don't care about that since it's only democrats who are corrupt. Moving on.
No, you're just angry. Sorry, but anger in a political conversation has no place, period. Keep practicing.
I explained my poverty stance pretty well since then, and ironically you never defined poverty either so don't be a hypocrite. When wealth is transferring every year to the highest tier, how can you say that the middle will always be in the middle? Wake up and pay attention to the deterioration going on in the country's middle class please.
Yes, I do think that I know peoples' interests better than they do when I see Tea Partiers going out holding up signs that say they want less government but that it can't touch their medicare. People don't know what the hell their interests are much of the time, they are just doing what they are told by their local culture and the personality cult of American politicians. If they weren't then why are some politicians being elected who openly say that they are going to cut taxes for the wealthiest in exchange for losing social programs those same voters depend on? I don't understand the source of your faith.
I never imagined myself to be an intellectual, but thanks for the compliment. I'm sorry you didn't get from Vonnegut what I did, but at least I can quote sections from the story and explain why I think the way I do. I'd love to hear why Vonnegut has the emotional maturity of a 14 year old who has survived a firebombing in Dresden. How much combat have you seen lately? Maybe you are just insulting someone because they have beliefs you don't share. At least reality supports my conclusions. What fantasy America are you living in where these things aren't happening? Maybe you need to come to terms with the fact that your utopia is slipping through your fingers. Oh, and I'm done with you. This has wasted enough of my day already, and I'm tired of being personally attacked as a consequence of your zealotry. Have a good one, keep up the not caring about anyone but yourself!
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slaughterhouse-5 has pretty good oldie ideas such as free will with non-linear 4-dimensional time visitings... how is it related to this discussion on healthcare again? lol i can't find it....
it's a funny and deeply moving book vonnegut was a great writer but he was wrong about who americans are
personally i like mother night the best, the most human of his novels i think
anyway ive been reading up on the german healthcare system and the whole "sick fund" idea is something i find intriguing, it sounds kind of catastrophic care insurance which is an idea i support. basically you pay low insurance premiums and on routine things like doctor visits and prescriptions the co-pay is a little higher, but if the shit hits the fan you are totally covered. i think it would be one thing to try to try to broaden the base of people paying insurance premiums, lessening the strain on the system.
Watch this: Halliburton defense contracts Iraq George Bush Cheney blah blah blah fucking blah. Oh yeah you don't care about that since it's only democrats who are corrupt. Moving on.
No actually a better example would be private military companies hired by the State Department, Halliburton was chosen because it is literally the only company in the world with the capacity to do the work that was needed to be done, go Google it you will find links of Democrats admitting as much. Donald Rumsfeld was very much behind privatizing as many military functions as possible and it was a big mistake.
No, you're just angry. Sorry, but anger in a political conversation has no place, period. Keep practicing.
If anger is so bad why do you keep trying to produce it with your arrogant pronouncements and expressions of contempt.
I explained my poverty stance pretty well since then, and ironically you never defined poverty either so don't be a hypocrite. When wealth is transferring every year to the highest tier, how can you say that the middle will always be in the middle? Wake up and pay attention to the deterioration going on in the country's middle class please.
You never asked what my definition of poverty is.
Are you now?
Explain to me how wealth is transferring except through government action. I am not someone who supported bailouts or who supports subsidies or other ways government distorts the market.
I never said the middle will always be there, I said they are in the majority, which they are.
I'm well aware of what is going on in this country, I just disagree as to the reasons and solutions. I see the rich who are getting help from the government getting richer, the rich who do not stagnating, and everyone else getting worse. So whose fault is that? Only one group of people has an unfair advantage, and it isn't that they are rich. It is that the government is helping them.
Yes, I do think that I know peoples' interests better than they do when I see Tea Partiers going out holding up signs that say they want less government but that it can't touch their medicare. People don't know what the hell their interests are much of the time, they are just doing what they are told by their local culture and the personality cult of American politicians. If they weren't then why are some politicians being elected who openly say that they are going to cut taxes for the wealthiest in exchange for losing social programs those same voters depend on? I don't understand the source of your faith.
You deal in stereotypes and caricatures of people's beliefs, and you say "people say this" in terms crafted to best suit a way for you to make them look silly. Why not produce what politicians actually say, like, direct quotes?
I never imagined myself to be an intellectual, but thanks for the compliment. I'm sorry you didn't get from Vonnegut what I did, but at least I can quote sections from the story and explain why I think the way I do. I'd love to hear why Vonnegut has the emotional maturity of a 14 year old who has survived a firebombing in Dresden. How much combat have you seen lately? Maybe you are just insulting someone because they have beliefs you don't share. At least reality supports my conclusions. What fantasy America are you living in where these things aren't happening? Maybe you need to come to terms with the fact that your utopia is slipping through your fingers. Oh, and I'm done with you. This has wasted enough of my day already, and I'm tired of being personally attacked as a consequence of your zealotry. Have a good one, keep up the not caring about anyone but yourself!
You live in a fantasy world where you speak for others and then proceed to insult them based on the stuff you say they said that they didn't say.
I didn't say Vonnegut had the emotional maturity of a 14 year old who survived Dresden, I said he never moved past 14. And in his works he never did. It was all intentional of course, he was gonzo before Hunter exploded the whole scene. Go read Breakfast of Champions and tell me Vonnegut wasn't being absurd for the sake of absurdity and got a little lost in it, too whipped up, sometimes.
I can quote parts of Breakfast of Champions, Mother Night, Slaughterhouse-5, whatever you want. I think it's kind of silly though.
You're the one insulting someone repeatedly for the beliefs they share, and you do it based not on what they said but what you say they said.
Zealotry, who is being so zealous?
Utopia slipping through fingers? Come to terms? What is this half-baked e-psychoanalysis going on here? Paging Dr. E-Freud, right?
I'm glad you're some internet psychic and you can tell I don't care about anyone but myself.
Using your own words against you is the best way for me to argue.
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It's an interesting story, and a very intelligent move by this fellow. But really, it's a wonder no one's done this before.
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On June 23 2011 03:53 IzieBoy wrote:
slaughterhouse-5 has pretty good oldie ideas such as free will with non-linear 4-dimensional time visitings... how is it related to this discussion on healthcare again? lol i can't find it....
It's the part where they are all huddled together with European prisoners after the firebombing, and the British are commenting how all the Europeans help each other and talk to each other and care for each other but the Americans just fought and stayed away from each other and became angry at each other. He went on to say that the underlying reason was that Americans just don't care about each other because they believe deep down that people always deserve what they get. They don't know how to care. I'm not saying he's 100% right, but the man was definitely onto something.
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It's the part where they are all huddled together with European prisoners after the firebombing, and the British are commenting how all the Europeans help each other and talk to each other and care for each other but the Americans just fought and stayed away from each other and became angry at each other. He went on to say that the underlying reason was that Americans just don't care about each other because they believe deep down that people always deserve what they get. They don't know how to care. I'm not saying he's 100% right, but the man was definitely onto something.
So, some fictional account of how POWs act is "on to something" (based on Vonnegut's personal experiences as they were, it was still a dramatization) should I point to other accounts of American POWs acting with great solidarity and humanity for each other?
I don't think you understand that the way you talk makes you sound like you're basing your characterization of Americans off the dramatization of one anecdotal account of a bunch of POWs in the middle of one of the most intensely hellish experiences humans have ever endured.
How about in Mother Night at the very end when Frank Wirtanen on his own initiative reveals that he existed and that he was Howard Campbell's handler during the war, that Campbell really was an American agent the whole time and not a Nazi war criminal? How does that fit in with your beliefs about what Vonnegut according to you has to say about Americans?
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i wonder why old people (over age 40) are so against obamacare. one reason i can think of is that they just earn a lot more than younger folks and are taxed a bit more, but then they also are getting a discount somewhere for something right?
+ Show Spoiler +Income from self-employment and wages of single individuals in excess $200,000 annually will be subject to an additional tax of 0.9%. The threshold amount is $250,000 for a married couple filing jointly (threshold applies to joint compensation of the two spouses), or $125,000 for a married person filing separately.[41] In addition, an additional tax of 3.8% will apply to the lesser of net investment income or the amount by which adjusted gross income exceeds $200,000 ($250,000 for a married couple filing jointly; $125,000 for a married person filing separately.[42]
+ Show Spoiler +Companies which provide early retiree benefits for individuals aged 55–64 are eligible to participate in a temporary program which reduces premium costs.
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On June 23 2011 03:48 SolidusR wrote:
Yeah I was thinking that might have been a problem, I'm not talking about the homeless I'm talking about a middle class that is rapidly disappearing. Of course you can push the bar lower and lower using percentages, but what I'm trying to say is that more and more people are having trouble making house payments, securing healthcare, and generally living well every year. I'm talking about the working class, and we are dirt poor compared to the very wealthy, that's where I got that from. Sorry for the confusion. Think the average population in a working class town just making ends meet. More and more people are falling into that situation all the time when they used to be able to save for retirement, vacations, etc. It's all on the news if you aren't seeing it happening around you like I am.
Middle class inflation-adjusted incomes are rising, though not as fast as the rich (though if you count health care insurance as part of one's income, then middle-class incomes are in fact rising pretty fast). That doesn't mean the middle class is "disappearing." Everyone is still getting richer, or at least not getting poorer. By the way, this phenomenon is happening across the Western world and has more to do with globalization than anything else. Don't fall for the fallacy that rising income inequality = people getting poorer.
I think your opinion is colored by the recent recession we had. You shouldn't use 2-3 years of data to make comments about a general trend.
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On June 23 2011 01:12 snailz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 00:46 Kevan wrote:
This is another reason why I wouldn't ever want to live in the US. What could be more important than healthcare for those who need it? i think this is the fundamental concept that many americans fail to grasp. it's a society where the capitalistic "you want it you earn it" mantra goes so deep into mentality of the people, that they cant accept anything being "given out" for "free", even if its human life they are talking about. and we are talking about human life. how the fuck do you put a price tag on that?
Its not even just "you want it you earn it", that is actually good motto if not taken to extremes. It more seems like "mine, mine, and you cannot have it, my precious".
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On June 23 2011 04:30 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 01:12 snailz wrote:On June 23 2011 00:46 Kevan wrote:
This is another reason why I wouldn't ever want to live in the US. What could be more important than healthcare for those who need it? i think this is the fundamental concept that many americans fail to grasp. it's a society where the capitalistic "you want it you earn it" mantra goes so deep into mentality of the people, that they cant accept anything being "given out" for "free", even if its human life they are talking about. and we are talking about human life. how the fuck do you put a price tag on that? Its not even just "you want it you earn it", that is actually good motto if not taken to extremes. It more seems like "mine, mine, and you cannot have it, my precious".
lol my precious....precious ahaha good one
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what an idiot, he could of robbed the bank for $$$$$$$$$$$ then bought healthcare and be free
idiot poor people ruin the world
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On June 23 2011 03:03 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 01:05 snailz wrote:On June 23 2011 00:11 dogabutila wrote:
Actually, yes. The principal of the issue is the same. There is no "moral" problem for society to deal with. Besides, why are we legislating morality? Should we also require everybody take bible classes and outlaw abortion and teach creationism in school? If you think it fair to force others to pay for the problems of others, where do you draw the line?How do you decide? Or is it only okay to make people pay for others when you are making people richer then you pay for yourself? where do you draw the line? are you for real? "how is it fair to force paying for problems of other?" it's fair in a sense that YOU can be that "other". you don't pay for other, you pay for yourself, your family, friends, loved ones. and when worse comes to worse, because all paid some amount, YOU or someone YOURS gets the help without financial breakdown later on. is this really such a hard concept for people in the states (the ones living the famous dream at least) to understand? helping someone other than yourself is not the worst thing in the world, if that someone can be you. Should do? Yes Have to do? No Being generous, charitable, and having that moral compulsion to help is to be admired. Teaching people that they are entitled to such generosity is not. Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 01:05 snailz wrote:On June 23 2011 00:11 dogabutila wrote:
Paying for insurance is paying for healthcare for others. Sometimes people don't want or need it. Yes, did you read what I wrote? In real life, people can decide they do not need or want insurance. It's pathetic how people want the government to hand everything to them so they don't have to be responsible for themselves. Everybody would give up all the freedom they had if it only meant they did not have to work. There are really no advantages to a mandatory health insurance plan. None. no. its not paying for others, if everyone did it. its also not true that u dont need it if u work. some people work and still can get into situations where they are helpless. are u even human? how on earth can u deny a person right to get medical care no matter how much he possibly fucked up in life. its not your problem? jesus fucking christ, how do you people sleep at night? edit: i just saw that it was you who wrote this (i even referenced it in my post on previous page) Public health care system deny people all the time. It's called economic reality. Some treatments are un-affordable. In the private system, affordability is everybody's problem. In the public system, it's truly not your fucking problem. You always pay your taxes and your mandatory fees. Then some bureaucrat decides for everyone and you either get it or you don't from the public system. Then, there is something called charity. People give to worthy causes all the time. It's a better bet on supporting people who really ended up in trouble through little fault of their own.
You know that a lot of public healthcare systems allow and actually has private component that you can buy if basic coverage is not enough for you ?
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On June 23 2011 03:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +Man I hope your trolling right now, because that's a fucking dumb thing to say. Straight up.
Obviously your education can't have been worth the money if you don't understand why not everyone, in fact most people, can't afford it. No I think what you said was dumber. If you don't understand that *most* people already can afford it because they uh kind of already have it, don't tell people what is dumb to say. So much ignorance. 80% = most by any kind of definition. Show nested quote +Sometimes I think the wealthiest in America forget that they would have nothing if not for the rest of us who have worked so hard to provide them with the country that has given them the opportunity to become so wealthy. It ain't possible without the taxpayers. The least we deserve as thanks is not to die in the streets or put ourselves in prison. Funniest thing I've heard, the rich are dependent on people paying taxes. Sorry, the rich are dependent on people being consumers. Consumers are dependent on the rich to put out cheap products. Both sides need each other, and it isn't a rich vs. poor issue. Not everything is about class, the greatest thing about America is that despite best efforts of people to convince us otherwise, we are not a society of class division and envy the way Europe is and the way Canada has deluded itself into thinking. Class. What a foreign notion.
Funny how of all western first world nations the class divisions are most noticable in US 
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On June 23 2011 03:30 The KY wrote:
Assuming public schools = bad schools? Mine was ok. Oh sorry, anecdotal evidence again.
Regardless, the obvious problem with people paying for their own kids is that the poor are forced to send their kids to the lower quality schools. Goodbye social mobility.
Well you are in UK, it seems only US public services are really awful, does not mean other countries could not do it better. My public school was excellent, same with gymnasium(like high school?), same with university. Yes there are shitty public schools, but they are shitty not because they are public, but because of other reasons.
And yes US has quite poor social mobility.
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A bit of data for the dicussion.
http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=HEALTH
Every country on that list spends less on healthcare pr. capita than the US and as far as i know most of them have universal healthcare systems that work (with varying degress of success).
EDIT: typo
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On June 23 2011 04:56 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 03:30 The KY wrote:
Assuming public schools = bad schools? Mine was ok. Oh sorry, anecdotal evidence again.
Regardless, the obvious problem with people paying for their own kids is that the poor are forced to send their kids to the lower quality schools. Goodbye social mobility. Well you are in UK, it seems only US public services are really awful, does not mean other countries could not do it better. My public school was excellent, same with gymnasium(like high school?), same with university. Yes there are shitty public schools, but they are shitty not because they are public, but because of other reasons. And yes US has quite poor social mobility.
It's kind of hard to accurately measure the quality of US public schools. The schools in the suburbs and/or rich areas and/or areas with lots of Asians are fantastic (e.g. Stuyvesant). Where you see shitty schools are in the inner-cities. And it's not just the lack of income, but also a culture that derides education. Schools that attract poor people who care about education (e.g. charter schools or parochial schools) seem to do fairly well.
I'm a supporter of what's called "school reform" in the US, and some of the abuses of the teacher's unions are on the surface quite outrageous (e.g. rubber rooms), but I'm not very confident reform is going to change much given that it appears culture is a driving factor.
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On June 23 2011 05:06 domovoi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 04:56 mcc wrote:On June 23 2011 03:30 The KY wrote:
Assuming public schools = bad schools? Mine was ok. Oh sorry, anecdotal evidence again.
Regardless, the obvious problem with people paying for their own kids is that the poor are forced to send their kids to the lower quality schools. Goodbye social mobility. Well you are in UK, it seems only US public services are really awful, does not mean other countries could not do it better. My public school was excellent, same with gymnasium(like high school?), same with university. Yes there are shitty public schools, but they are shitty not because they are public, but because of other reasons. And yes US has quite poor social mobility. It's kind of hard to accurately measure the quality of US public schools. The schools in the suburbs and/or rich areas and/or areas with lots of Asians are fantastic (e.g. Stuyvesant). Where you see shitty schools are in the inner-cities. And it's not just the lack of income, but also a culture that derides education. Schools that attract poor people who care about education (e.g. charter schools or parochial schools) seem to do fairly well. I'm a supporter of what's called "school reform" in the US, and some of the abuses of the teacher's unions are on the surface quite outrageous (e.g. rubber rooms), but I'm not very confident reform is going to change much given that it appears culture is a driving factor.
I was being kind of sarcastic/condescending in my first sentence as I was kind of annoyed by bad logic employed in the implication : public services are badly run in one place -> public services always awful and private ones are better. At least as far as schools go I know that there are drastic differences in quality of public schools, much bigger differences than in EU (or at least here). And from my friends that have been to US schools I know that there are public schools on the highest level of quality.
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If we had a free market this wouldn't be a problem.
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usa dosnt need healthcare cus they have god derp.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 23 2011 05:31 Liight wrote:
usa dosnt need healthcare cus they have god derp.
Because all Americans believe in god right? Ignorant.
I hope volcano ash will disables you some how.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
