On May 27 2011 13:39 aguy38 wrote: He didn't have to pray. He could have just sat there. If you read the second line of the article it makes it sound like he said the majority should be stopped on account of him. Did they overreact to him? Hell yea they did, but at some point he should have had the common sense to just not say anything.
Wrong. First our constitution is designed to protect the minority in cases just like this. This was a public school (meaning funded by public money) endorsing a religion. That is against the law already, he (behind closed doors and wishing to be anonymous) asked for the law to be upheld and his personal rights to not be infringed upon. At least you acknowledge they overreacted to him, but to say that he lacked common sense for standing up for what is right, and standing up for the constitution is ignorant. Saying that it would have been better to not say anything, and let his personal freedoms be infringed upon at a public school, is a cowardly comment.
What sickens me is to see the comments section in the newspaper site that originally published this story. All condemning this child's actions. I'm at least happy that the U.S. has a constitution that protects against taxpayer-funded incantations.
On May 27 2011 15:19 Popss wrote: What about atheism have to be proved.
I actually really don't get that :S
Let me help you out. God exists. Its my word against the atheists. God can show the atheist that he exists, but the atheist can never show me that God does not exist.
I dare you to read the works of Richard Dawkins.
On May 27 2011 15:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Prayer is distressing? Just dont pray and let the people who want to pray, pray?
The reaction from the rest of the town is typically retarded as well. People really just suck sometimes, everyone involved in this sound like complete idiots.
I think this applies here: "Religion: treat it like your penis. Dont show it off in public and don't shove it down childrens' throats."
The argument that a country without religion is like North Korea is wrong. Just look at my country , Sweden where the majority doesnt follow a big religion, i can say from personal experience that we are not like North Korea
I dont think that anyone said that a country without religion is like North Korea. A country where state/ and religion is seperate can work out well. Although there are often many problems within this concept. Like gay marriage/ abortion/ prayers in school etc. The seperation of church and state is tough to uphold.
A guy posted such a statement a couple pages ago. The DPRK is a popular target, along with Nazi Germany and Stalinism as the result of unchecked atheism fulfilling its destiny. It might not be true that the personality cults in the DPRK ruined it (they might instead be just a symptom), but yes, that state has religion, and regularly employs one of its most powerful motivators, fear.
Rather, as said before, the result of should be more like Sweden. The US is proof enough that secularism doesn't necessarily lead to or perpetuate nonbelief. Religious-inspired intolerance runs deep in our history, but secularism seems to fight against it. But it also seems to disappear anyway, as in the UK.
Well, some people don't understand that there is no difference between personality cults and religion other than the fact that icons (gods, spirits etc.) of religious groups are fictitious.
From what i have read from this article it seems like he was well within his rights of the law to get it stopped as he tried to do but his communities response is just ..bad , i guess it hard to understand some Americans zealotry due to coming from a society that really doesn't care about religion as a whole, but as some people have pointed out the law in America that separates church and state is there for a reason yet people just ignore it because they want too.
If you ignore the whole christian v. atheist sub-context, the prayer was against the law (constitution?) he tried to get it stopped and they basically said no, shunned him and had it any way, "just because its tradition" is not a excuse. Granted he didn't have to say said prayer, he should of never been forced into a position where he has to endure other peoples beliefs in a public setting.
Basically to sumarise I never realized religion in America was this out of control, as other people have pointed out it rivals the middle east's in regards to extremism and its crazy to hear about.
Well, some people don't understand that there is no difference between personality cults and religion other than the fact that icons (gods, spirits etc.) of religious groups are fictitious.
and that is exactly why i think you are wrong. But than the discussion comes down to wheter you believe in a God or not. And that discussion is endless and way smarter men than us have tried to have that discussion. All religion based topics and discussions comes down to wheter you believe in a God or not.
On May 27 2011 13:42 419 wrote: Among other parts of this article, that's misrepresenting Christian views. The way I see it (as TL's resident fundamentalist!) is that atheists can act morally, but that an absolute moral code can't be rationalized within the bounds of atheism.
Ofc, this doesn't mean his community isn't behaving like jackasses (they are) if this is true ~ just pointing out something before the anti-religion squad shows up. Also, its not like jackassery is an uncommon trait among high school students.
Might want to give it a read, and come back with the objections to it's morality you have. This is a book of morality devoid of religious influence. It's based in philosophy and research.
On May 27 2011 13:43 sgtcodfish wrote: His parents would do this to their kid over THIS?
What horrible people they are.
Christopher Hitchens has said it best in many debates. Religion can make otherwise morally normal people do completely wicked things. Look at genital mutilation as a good example, which is what he brought up in the debate I'm talking about.
I have been following this story before posted here and as a Humanist (therefor do not believe in god) it really upsets me. I went to a Episcopalian school for nine years and a Catholic High School for 4 years and especially in the 4 years of high school I made my beliefs quite clear in religion class every day. I never encountered ANYTHING close to that when I challenged the beliefs of the church or was outspoken and most of them accepted that those were my beliefs and that to each their own (which is a Christian teaching). The South really takes Christianity seriously to the points of that they lose sight of what to be Christian means and this is a prime example of this.
On another note, I read that Damon is actually receiving money from organizations for college since his family kicked him out for his beliefs. I think that the Atheist community will really back Damon and use him as a poster child of sorts for the persecution of beliefs that goes on in southern public schools in the United States.
In conclusion I hope that school district gets sued to hell...
Well he did nothing wrong, but from pragmatic point of view he did something not so smart. He should have known that this will happen and just suffered through it, went to college, finish it and get out of the hellhole that is American South. On the other hand that approach would further make South even worse place to live as educated, intelligent people would be leaving it, leaving behind population more and more skewed towards uneducated mob.
On May 27 2011 21:23 mcc wrote: Well he did nothing wrong, but from pragmatic point of view he did something not so smart. He should have known that this will happen and just suffered through it, went to college, finish it and get out of the hellhole that is American South. On the other hand that approach would further make South even worse place to live as educated, intelligent people would be leaving it, leaving behind population more and more skewed towards uneducated mob.
Now, don't go lumping all the South together. The reason you have that view of the South is that you only hear about the abuses that happen there, not anything good. I will agree that the South has some problems, but to simply state that all the South is bad is very, very misleading.
If he actually got the prayer cancelled then he shouldve seen this coming imo. He should have just stayed out of the prayer instead of threatening the guy to make them cancel the prayer.
cuz maybe if you had a brain, you would know that North Korea IS fucked up BECAUSE of RELIGION.
wait what? can you please explain? i think that Nkorea is fucked up because of commusism and dictatorship.
oh and this is irrelevant to your question, but do not be so naive as to think that North Korea is a communist state. I mean yeah they tried to create a communist state, but if anyone thinks that what they have now is worthy of the title of communism, is simply ignorant. It only carries tiny remnants of it's commie past. calling the north korean government communist is a euphemism.
Yep, they parted ways with anything similar to marxism-leninism a long time ago, they just keep some token words and some ideas, but the only reason why it is called communist state is because of their past. Frankly similar to China who is communist only in name and because of ruling party.
The college kid is probably in the right but you americans love suing stuff dont you
At my graduation night i was forced to listen to hours of boring speeches and songs , which NOBODY cared about.
And if alot of people in this school want to have a 1 minute prayer why not let them be if you are forced to listen to hours of nonesense anywayz what is 1 minute more? do you want to sue them for taking 1 minute of your life?
On May 27 2011 21:29 Lanfire wrote: The college kid is probably in the right but you americans love suing stuff dont you
At my graduation night i was forced to listen to hours of boring speeches and songs , which NOBODY cared about.
And if alot of people in this school want to have a 1 minute prayer why not let them be if you are forced to listen to hours of nonesense anywayz what is 1 minute more? do you want to sue them for taking 1 minute of your life?
Because it's illegal and unconstitutional for the school to lead a prayer during an event like a graduation. It's not about wasting time it's about the school encouraging and leading an establishment of religion.
so he got bullied because he stood against something unconstitutional and in the end, the unconstitutional action still got performed??? and some ppl on TL fault the kid for doing what he did? wtf. also, with the way the legal system works, cant he just sue the schools ass to hell and get a nice bit of compensation for personal suffering? or is the judicial system already so infiltrated by christian believes that his chances would be less than great?
On May 27 2011 13:42 419 wrote: ... Among other parts of this article, that's misrepresenting Christian views. The way I see it (as TL's resident fundamentalist!) is that atheists can act morally, but that an absolute moral code can't be rationalized within the bounds of atheism. ...
Can't believe you actually said that..
The absolute morality that a religious person might profess would include what? Stoning people for adultery? Death for apostasy? These are all things that are religiously based absolute moralities. I don't think I want an absolute morality; I think I want a morality that is thought out, reasoned, argued, discussed and based upon - you could almost say - intelligent design. Can we not design our society? The sort of society we want to live in?
Why did I read this after I ate, now I feel like vomiting.
While what the kid did wasn't smart at all, he had a point. Prayers have no place in public schools. There could be many more students like him that thought the same, just didn't have the courage to step up. And the reaction just goes around to show how much some people are intolerant about their religion (or atheism, in the case of Damon).
However, something good came around. This situation has brought the best out of them atheist groups, which, like it's said in the OP, are thought to be amoral.
On May 27 2011 15:19 Popss wrote: What about atheism have to be proved.
I actually really don't get that :S
Let me help you out. God exists. Its my word against the atheists. God can show the atheist that he exists, but the atheist can never show me that God does not exist.
Logical fallacy there. Don't know if you were sarcastic, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxdgCxK4VUA The absolute morality that a religious person might profess would include what? Stoning people for adultery? Death for apostasy? These are all things that are religiously based absolute moralities. I don't think I want an absolute morality; I think I want a morality that is thought out, reasoned, argued, discussed and based upon - you could almost say - intelligent design. Can we not design our society? The sort of society we want to live in?
Wait, that actually addressed the question? All I saw was a guy asked a question how it is impossible to have right and wrong without absolute moral code, and the guy just went on to discuss how religion is bad. Please, explain how he answered the question, because I don't see it.
On May 27 2011 21:23 mcc wrote: Well he did nothing wrong, but from pragmatic point of view he did something not so smart. He should have known that this will happen and just suffered through it, went to college, finish it and get out of the hellhole that is American South. On the other hand that approach would further make South even worse place to live as educated, intelligent people would be leaving it, leaving behind population more and more skewed towards uneducated mob.
Now, don't go lumping all the South together. The reason you have that view of the South is that you only hear about the abuses that happen there, not anything good. I will agree that the South has some problems, but to simply state that all the South is bad is very, very misleading.
Ok, not all south is that bad. I would guess Florida is better But otherwise it is not because there are no good things in the South, but that the bad things there, particularly those connected with religion are so bad, compared to other parts of US (not even talking compared to the rest of the first world countries) that the good things are irrelevant as there are similar good things elsewhere.
The point is, for a part of first world country, South is bad in the sense that similar incidents happen there too often, actually problem is that they happen at all. Of course it is not all bad and the usage of hellhole was bad hyperbole really.
EPT
But otherwise it is not because there are no good things in the South, but that the bad things there, particularly those connected with religion are so bad, compared to other parts of US (not even talking compared to the rest of the first world countries) that the good things are irrelevant as there are similar good things elsewhere.
