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Student gets ostracized for refusing to pray - Page 36

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diehilde
Profile Joined September 2008
Germany1596 Posts
May 27 2011 12:41 GMT
#701
On May 27 2011 21:37 AXygnus wrote:
Why did I read this after I ate, now I feel like vomiting.


While what the kid did wasn't smart at all, he had a point. Prayers have no place in public schools. There could be many more students like him that thought the same, just didn't have the courage to step up. And the reaction just goes around to show how much some people are intolerant about their religion (or atheism, in the case of Damon).

However, something good came around. This situation has brought the best out of them atheist groups, which, like it's said in the OP, are thought to be amoral.

Why the hell would atheist groups be considered amoral?? Since when has religion rented the sole right to having moral values?? I can't believe many people actually think atheism has anything to do with amorality. What the heck they think ethics stands for? Religion??
Savior: "I will cheat everyone again in SC2!" - SCII Beta Tester
Lanfire
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands151 Posts
May 27 2011 12:43 GMT
#702
Because it's illegal and unconstitutional for the school to lead a prayer during an event like a graduation.


Yes you are right ( dont know your constitution) but still i dont get what the big deal is here.

There are worse things in life to endore and alot of probably unconstitutional situations in anyones life ( privacy/ Patriot act ). I just dont get the whole OMG im going to sue you for this mentality.
¯(°_o)/¯
Marcus420
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada1923 Posts
May 27 2011 12:43 GMT
#703
Sad that people so religious are also so violent.

Imo it even sounds like alot of people jumped on the bandwagon to hate him.

oh well, time for him to move to a country where nobody cares what you believe in. aka canada
AXygnus
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Portugal1008 Posts
May 27 2011 12:43 GMT
#704
On May 27 2011 21:41 diehilde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2011 21:37 AXygnus wrote:
Why did I read this after I ate, now I feel like vomiting.


While what the kid did wasn't smart at all, he had a point. Prayers have no place in public schools. There could be many more students like him that thought the same, just didn't have the courage to step up. And the reaction just goes around to show how much some people are intolerant about their religion (or atheism, in the case of Damon).

However, something good came around. This situation has brought the best out of them atheist groups, which, like it's said in the OP, are thought to be amoral.

Why the hell would atheist groups be considered amoral?? Since when has religion rented the sole right to having moral values?? I can't believe many people actually think atheism has anything to do with amorality. What the heck they think ethics stands for? Religion??


That was referenced in the OP, actually, let me quote it.


One of the chunks of mud that's most commonly slung at atheists is that we're selfish. Amoral. That without a belief in God and the afterlife, people would have no moral compass, and would just act to please themselves, without any consideration for others. That without a belief in eternal punishment in the afterlife for bad behavior, eternal reward in the afterlife for good behavior, and a supernatural authority figure refereeing it all, people would have no reason to be good people, and no reason to avoid doing terrible things. That without religion, people would have no compassion, no sense of justice, no empathy, no desire to see society running smoothly... and would just do whatever we wanted to do.


Don't get me wrong, I'm an atheist too.
"To create, to recreate. To create, to recreate. Down to the last seed, I stand with a dark stare. Still silent. Still frighteningly silent."
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
May 27 2011 12:45 GMT
#705
On May 27 2011 21:39 Omegalisk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2011 21:32 Mulletarian wrote:

Can't believe you actually said that..



The absolute morality that a religious person might profess would include what? Stoning people for adultery? Death for apostasy? These are all things that are religiously based absolute moralities. I don't think I want an absolute morality; I think I want a morality that is thought out, reasoned, argued, discussed and based upon - you could almost say - intelligent design.
Can we not design our society? The sort of society we want to live in?


Wait, that actually addressed the question? All I saw was a guy asked a question how it is impossible to have right and wrong without absolute moral code, and the guy just went on to discuss how religion is bad. Please, explain how he answered the question, because I don't see it.


He said, how does religion define absolute morality - by having absurd punishments for crimes, some of which are not crimes or are outdated ideas of crimes. He then said, you cannot just rely religious text for morality; morality should be something that is logically built upon and designed to be good. He then also said, religious people do that, because they look to their religious text and cherry pick the bits that they agree with and regard the rest as "archaic fanatical stuff".

Essentially he says that religion doesn't define morality. People define morality.
Yargh
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
May 27 2011 12:49 GMT
#706
On May 27 2011 21:32 Mulletarian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2011 13:42 419 wrote: ...
Among other parts of this article, that's misrepresenting Christian views. The way I see it (as TL's resident fundamentalist!) is that atheists can act morally, but that an absolute moral code can't be rationalized within the bounds of atheism. ...


Can't believe you actually said that..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxdgCxK4VUA

The absolute morality that a religious person might profess would include what? Stoning people for adultery? Death for apostasy? These are all things that are religiously based absolute moralities. I don't think I want an absolute morality; I think I want a morality that is thought out, reasoned, argued, discussed and based upon - you could almost say - intelligent design.
Can we not design our society? The sort of society we want to live in?

Actually he is kind of right that you cannot base your moral code on atheism. Because atheism does not give you anything to base it on. But that is actually error on his part that he thinks atheists base their moral code on their atheism. Unlike many religious people atheists are not solely defined by them being atheists. Atheists can be humanists, communists, ..... and derive their moral codes from elsewhere, not from their atheism. And they can have absolute moral codes just as easily.
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 12:53:47
May 27 2011 12:53 GMT
#707
On May 27 2011 21:49 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2011 21:32 Mulletarian wrote:
On May 27 2011 13:42 419 wrote: ...
Among other parts of this article, that's misrepresenting Christian views. The way I see it (as TL's resident fundamentalist!) is that atheists can act morally, but that an absolute moral code can't be rationalized within the bounds of atheism. ...


Can't believe you actually said that..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxdgCxK4VUA

The absolute morality that a religious person might profess would include what? Stoning people for adultery? Death for apostasy? These are all things that are religiously based absolute moralities. I don't think I want an absolute morality; I think I want a morality that is thought out, reasoned, argued, discussed and based upon - you could almost say - intelligent design.
Can we not design our society? The sort of society we want to live in?

Actually he is kind of right that you cannot base your moral code on atheism. Because atheism does not give you anything to base it on. But that is actually error on his part that he thinks atheists base their moral code on their atheism. Unlike many religious people atheists are not solely defined by them being atheists. Atheists can be humanists, communists, ..... and derive their moral codes from elsewhere, not from their atheism. And they can have absolute moral codes just as easily.


But what Richard Dawkins is saying is that humans pick and choose their moral code - even if their religion gives them set specific text to be taken as moral code, those people will select the ones that are in line with their views and ignore the ones that are not.

So is it RELIGION that makes for the moral code? Or human determination?
Yargh
Lanfire
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands151 Posts
May 27 2011 12:55 GMT
#708
atheism does not give you anything to base it on


i dont think you are right. Every human being has a general idea of good and bad. that seperatus us from the animals
¯(°_o)/¯
Mulletarian
Profile Joined February 2011
Norway101 Posts
May 27 2011 12:57 GMT
#709
Only the Sith fundamentalists deal in absolutes.
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
May 27 2011 12:58 GMT
#710
On May 27 2011 21:57 Mulletarian wrote:
Only the Sith fundamentalists deal in absolutes.


If only they believed in having only 2.
Yargh
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 13:00:19
May 27 2011 12:58 GMT
#711
On May 27 2011 20:21 ZessiM wrote:
Wanting to protest something unconstitutional = insolent jackass. Wow, who knew. Thanks TL.

I hope you're listening Rosa Parks.


Can we please not compare having to listen to a prayer with racism? -.- There are degrees of wrong.

On May 27 2011 21:55 Lanfire wrote:
Show nested quote +
atheism does not give you anything to base it on


i dont think you are right. Every human being has a general idea of good and bad. that seperatus us from the animals

Lol what? We are not born with morals, and (other) animals are not so without their own morals, they just arent the same as ours.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Omegalisk
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States337 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 13:01:05
May 27 2011 12:59 GMT
#712
On May 27 2011 21:45 JinDesu wrote:

He said, how does religion define absolute morality - by having absurd punishments for crimes, some of which are not crimes or are outdated ideas of crimes. He then said, you cannot just rely religious text for morality; morality should be something that is logically built upon and designed to be good. He then also said, religious people do that, because they look to their religious text and cherry pick the bits that they agree with and regard the rest as "archaic fanatical stuff".

Essentially he says that religion doesn't define morality. People define morality.


I don't care how religion defines it: it does not answer the question. Atheism, as a belief system (the system of not believing there is a God) does not depend on religion, so the answer should not pertain to it. An absolute moral code does not in any way depend on archaic religious texts. It depends on the development of the system, in much the same way that he describes the abolition of slavery and such. The only difference is that religion's absolute moral code was developed a long time ago. Even then, religion does not matter in this case.

In short, morality does not depend on it being in religious texts, and so one cannot use the religious texts as an excuse to answer the question. The question was that atheism does not have an absolute moral code, so as a whole it cannot proclaim things as right or wrong.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
May 27 2011 13:00 GMT
#713
On May 27 2011 21:53 JinDesu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2011 21:49 mcc wrote:
On May 27 2011 21:32 Mulletarian wrote:
On May 27 2011 13:42 419 wrote: ...
Among other parts of this article, that's misrepresenting Christian views. The way I see it (as TL's resident fundamentalist!) is that atheists can act morally, but that an absolute moral code can't be rationalized within the bounds of atheism. ...


Can't believe you actually said that..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxdgCxK4VUA

The absolute morality that a religious person might profess would include what? Stoning people for adultery? Death for apostasy? These are all things that are religiously based absolute moralities. I don't think I want an absolute morality; I think I want a morality that is thought out, reasoned, argued, discussed and based upon - you could almost say - intelligent design.
Can we not design our society? The sort of society we want to live in?

Actually he is kind of right that you cannot base your moral code on atheism. Because atheism does not give you anything to base it on. But that is actually error on his part that he thinks atheists base their moral code on their atheism. Unlike many religious people atheists are not solely defined by them being atheists. Atheists can be humanists, communists, ..... and derive their moral codes from elsewhere, not from their atheism. And they can have absolute moral codes just as easily.


But what Richard Dawkins is saying is that humans pick and choose their moral code - even if their religion gives them set specific text to be taken as moral code, those people will select the ones that are in line with their views and ignore the ones that are not.

So is it RELIGION that makes for the moral code? Or human determination?

I was not reacting to that part of your post as I mostly agree with it. I think sometimes religion can override your inner moral compass, for better or for worse, but in reasonably secular societies moral code of even religious people is mostly unaffected by the religion.
ComaDose
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada10357 Posts
May 27 2011 13:01 GMT
#714
Hmm, In Canada the government sponsors catholic schools where prayer is lead every morning. Is the catholic school board in the US not government funded?

Of course we are not required to participate in the prayer so I have no problem with it.

In a public school, where students have chosen to attend a non-religious affiliated facility, is it appropriate to lead a prayer during graduation where all graduating students will be attending? No i don't think that it is appropriate. Should it be illegal? I do not think so. In the case they have many speakers if one of them wishes to speak to the religious community in the school through prayer of course it would be a breach of rights to deny them the opportunity. It would be a breach of rights to also force all students to participate. So we must investigate what is considered participating if we can call something ILLEGAL.

My personal belief is that being present where prayer is being performed is not enough to be considered participating and thus it should be fine for a public school to lead a prayer during graduation. The idea that we are being SUBJECTED to government sponsored prayer is a little harsh. Being in the presence of prayer is mild imo. However i wouldn't dream of dishonoring Fowler and given the opportunity I would venomously defend him from the ignorant prosecutors.

Should the student in question be ridiculed? ABSOLUTELY NOT! how horrible that someone be viewed any less for their beliefs in general. If he lives in a house where he would be kicked out for his beliefs I have great sympathy for him and offer him my support.
BW pros training sc2 is like kiss making a dub step album.
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 13:02:21
May 27 2011 13:01 GMT
#715
On May 27 2011 21:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2011 20:21 ZessiM wrote:
Wanting to protest something unconstitutional = insolent jackass. Wow, who knew. Thanks TL.

I hope you're listening Rosa Parks.


Can we please not compare having to listen to a prayer with racism? -.- There are degrees of wrong.

Show nested quote +
On May 27 2011 21:55 Lanfire wrote:
atheism does not give you anything to base it on


i dont think you are right. Every human being has a general idea of good and bad. that seperatus us from the animals

Lol what? We are not born with morals, and (other) animals are not so without their own morals, they just arent the same as ours.



i dont see how racism is any worse than religious bigotry.

and we are born with some morals : ) see my post in the morality thread
Albrithe
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada187 Posts
May 27 2011 13:03 GMT
#716
I feel bad for this kid. As an Agnostic that was raised as a Christian, I believe that the people ridiculing and threatening this guy are in the wrong. Jesus teaches Christians to do unto others as they would be done unto. So all of these people would want to be ridiculed for standing up for their personal beliefs and the law?
"You don't need a condom... to get up on 'dem..." -Zach Weiner
StiX
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands220 Posts
May 27 2011 13:03 GMT
#717
He's my hero <3
"Think for yourself, question authority" Timothy Leary
Ingenol
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States1328 Posts
May 27 2011 13:04 GMT
#718
This is why we shouldn't have public schools.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
May 27 2011 13:05 GMT
#719
On May 27 2011 21:55 Lanfire wrote:
Show nested quote +
atheism does not give you anything to base it on


i dont think you are right. Every human being has a general idea of good and bad. that seperatus us from the animals

Then you misunderstand my post, I said that atheists do not base their moral code on atheism (how can you base your moral code on not believing in something), but I said that they base it on different things. And I was of course talking about conscious moral code, as of course the core moral values are biological and nearly(there are people without them or close to that) all people have them. And I doubt the separation from animals on that front is so clear.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
May 27 2011 13:05 GMT
#720
On May 27 2011 22:01 turdburgler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2011 21:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On May 27 2011 20:21 ZessiM wrote:
Wanting to protest something unconstitutional = insolent jackass. Wow, who knew. Thanks TL.

I hope you're listening Rosa Parks.


Can we please not compare having to listen to a prayer with racism? -.- There are degrees of wrong.

On May 27 2011 21:55 Lanfire wrote:
atheism does not give you anything to base it on


i dont think you are right. Every human being has a general idea of good and bad. that seperatus us from the animals

Lol what? We are not born with morals, and (other) animals are not so without their own morals, they just arent the same as ours.



i dont see how racism is any worse than religious bigotry.

and we are born with some morals : ) see my post in the morality thread

Its not religious bigotry to lead a prayer in school. What they did AFTERWARDS might be bigotry however and is a bigger problem.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
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