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Is this what Christianity preaches? I mean if you have a son that doesn't follow your faith is it ok to kick them out of your house?
I know it's not, because my family is also Christian but I'm not! I've had thousands of discussions about religion with my parents and in the end i always "win" because deep in their hearts they know the truth.. There is no "gods" because if they existed they wouldn't allow people to hurt or kill others in their name!
think about it! we all know the truth even if we can't or don't want to get rid of religion!
It's sad for the kid but I'm even sadder for the ones that did this because:
a) Jesus forgives.. why can't you?
b) kicking a son out of the house = going to hell
c) Louisiana is full of religious bigots against a kid
PS: all other religious are the same to me - a bunch of crap!
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When the atheist kid tries to cancel the prayer, he is in a way forcing his religious point of view on the majority. That kind of thing is obviously explosive. He succeeded in that the prayer was officially canceled, but the community being what it was, someone said a prayer anyway...and what was the school supposed to do then? Try to shut the girl up? imo, the school was pulled into a snare trap just like the student. I'm sorry for him, I hope he can forgive people who did evil to him and recognize why things why things happened the way they did. The fault was in part on everyone involved, but the greater evil is obviously the way the community handled it.
I do not understand your point of view. The constitution doesn't allow prayer in schools, how is he "forcing his belief"? Also, the school could have just held a moment of silence. Not calling it prayer would have been totally fine, and equal for everyone.
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On May 27 2011 22:22 shell wrote:
Is this what Christianity preaches? I mean if you have a son that doesn't follow your faith is it ok to kick them out of your house?
I know it's not, because my family is also Christian but I'm not! I've had thousands of discussions about religion with my parents and in the end i always "win" because deep in their hearts they know the truth.. There is no "gods" because if they existed they wouldn't allow people to hurt or kill others in their name!
think about it! we all know the truth even if we can't or don't want to get rid of religion!
It's sad for the kid but I'm even sadder for the ones that did this because:
a) Jesus forgives.. why can't you?
b) kicking a son out of the house = going to hell
c) Louisiana is full of religious bigots against a kid
PS: all other religious are the same to me - a bunch of crap!
Some Christians cherry-pick the good morals from the Bible, and some Christians cherry-pick the bad ones. It's pretty sad, but religion is often used as a divisive tool. Either way, American public schools are supposed to remain secularist, so religious differences among students and faculty, while recognized, shouldn't even be an issue.
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On May 27 2011 22:22 shell wrote:
Is this what Christianity preaches? I mean if you have a son that doesn't follow your faith is it ok to kick them out of your house?
I know it's not, because my family is also Christian but I'm not! I've had thousands of discussions about religion with my parents and in the end i always "win" because deep in their hearts they know the truth.. There is no "gods" because if they existed they wouldn't allow people to hurt or kill others in their name!
think about it! we all know the truth even if we can't or don't want to get rid of religion!
It's sad for the kid but I'm even sadder for the ones that did this because:
a) Jesus forgives.. why can't you?
b) kicking a son out of the house = going to hell
c) Louisiana is full of religious bigots against a kid
PS: all other religious are the same to me - a bunch of crap!
Sorry but Jesus had very little time for those who did not share His faith:
Jesus’ Mother and Brothers
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
The Cost of Following Jesus
18 When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. 19 Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.”
20 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”
21 Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
22 But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
61 Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.”
62 Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”
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Not surprised at what the community has done to him but I AM surprised at those scumbag parents. I hope they go to hell.
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On May 27 2011 22:16 SolidZeal wrote:
The application of separation of church and state here is a bit complicated, especially when the school actually complied and canceled the prayer. The prayer happened anyway, but because a senior brought it up of her own volition kind puts her under free speech in that situation. The point when things started going very wrong is when the community found out that he was trying to get the prayer canceled. It's not necessarily the school that is at fault there, depending on how the information traveled. It's possible it spread from Damon/Damon's friends into the school environment and became a hot topic. The school was in a bad position as they could not avoid what the student asked for as it is a law. They could not avoid telling the community the prayer was getting canceled and if the rumor started from the students peers they couldn't really protect him from the community being able to point at him.
There was a shitstorm button in that school's office and the kid walked up and pressed it. You can't undo something like that once you start it. The whole community was suddenly turned on him. I doubt really that his parents ostracizing him had to do with his religious choice. More that he managed press such a really sore issue and turn his whole community against him. They had a choice to support him and be alienated in the community or join in on the shitstorm. Sadly I feel they made the wrong choice. Thank god that he has a brother worth a damn.
I can't help but ponder if he was to sue, who would he target? The obvious answer is the school, but what if it can be proved that it wasn't the schools fault the rumor spread? Really it was the community that wrong him.
It's a very cynical thing to say (funny because i think most atheist are fond of cynicism) but i can't help but feel that the atheist community jumped to help him to make the illusion that this is a Atheists are good, Christian's are oppressors type of situation. This whole clusterfuck just showcases a fundamental issue in America arising specifically with atheism. When the atheist kid tries to cancel the prayer, he is in a way forcing his religious point of view on the majority. That kind of thing is obviously explosive. He succeeded in that the prayer was officially canceled, but the community being what it was, someone said a prayer anyway...and what was the school supposed to do then? Try to shut the girl up? imo, the school was pulled into a snare trap just like the student. I'm sorry for him, I hope he can forgive people who did evil to him and recognize why things why things happened the way they did. The fault was in part on everyone involved, but the greater evil is obviously the way the community handled it.
Actually, there is no complication or confusion, according to the article. It clearly states that "His public school was planning to have a prayer as part of the graduation ceremony". This is unconstitutional, regardless of how much of a *tradition* it is (how long have they been breaking the law?). The law is supposed to protect the rights of the few from the power of the majority. There cannot be planned prayer in school, such as part of a graduation ceremony. Schools must remain secularist. If you want to sit in your seat and pray on your own during the ceremony, no one will stop you. But it can't be orchestrated by school officials.
It's also completely irrelevant to the atheist's religious beliefs. Heck, he doesn't have any. He's an atheist. Not wanting prayer in school isn't his "religious point of view". It's him wanting the Constitution to be enforced.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On May 27 2011 13:42 419 wrote:You're very optimistic if you think you can get a productive discussion over this... Show nested quote +One of the chunks of mud that's most commonly slung at atheists is that we're selfish. Amoral.
Among other parts of this article, that's misrepresenting Christian views. The way I see it (as TL's resident fundamentalist!) is that atheists can act morally, but that an absolute moral code can't be rationalized within the bounds of atheism. Ofc, this doesn't mean his community isn't behaving like jackasses (they are) if this is true ~ just pointing out something before the anti-religion squad shows up. Also, its not like jackassery is an uncommon trait among high school students.
Eh brother, didn't know TL had a resident fundamentalist. I don't know how they classify things in the US, but Aussie Christians who read the bible systematically and live by scripture are known as reformed evangelicals. Guess I'm one of them 
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Prayer shouldn't be in school. Fowler had the right to say that and it is constitutionally correct that prayer should not be in school. He was attacked unnecessarily and that shouldn't have happened if the people attacking him were "religious people". I think its wrong when you have atheists or people who don't believe in your religion having to partake in your religious practice, prayer. That said, there are churches for that and your homes, your cars, or in your private places. Also, the following
One of the chunks of mud that's most commonly slung at atheists is that we're selfish. Amoral. That without a belief in God and the afterlife, people would have no moral compass, and would just act to please themselves, without any consideration for others. That without a belief in eternal punishment in the afterlife for bad behavior, eternal reward in the afterlife for good behavior, and a supernatural authority figure refereeing it all, people would have no reason to be good people, and no reason to avoid doing terrible things. That without religion, people would have no compassion, no sense of justice, no empathy, no desire to see society running smoothly... and would just do whatever we wanted to do.
This is a misconception of the Christian religion that believing people who don't believe in Christ are immoral. I know christians who are less moral than nonchristians. Also, becoming a Christian doesn't mean you are becoming a moral person right off the bat. Becoming a moral person might be a byproduct of becoming a Christian and having a sense of morality does not require a person to be religious.
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The entire situation to me sounds like it was derived simply because everyone involved were a bunch of sore asses who cannot handle other people disagreeing. Stupid of him to start it, just as stupid and twice as mean of the rest to follow up like they did.
As much as a hate how most heavily religious people act, they're entirely entitled to be that way and I rightfully so shouldn't be able to do anything else than argue with them however little it would matter.
He chose to do the same, but at a retarded time. There's a time for calling idiots, idiots just as there's a time to shut up and just keep it to yourself. Hopefully he learned.
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On May 27 2011 22:48 Divine-Sneaker wrote:
The entire situation to me sounds like it was derived simply because everyone involved were a bunch of sore asses who cannot handle other people disagreeing. Stupid of him to start it, just as stupid and twice as mean of the rest to follow up like they did.
As much as a hate how most heavily religious people act, they're entirely entitled to be that way and I rightfully so shouldn't be able to do anything else than argue with them however little it would matter.
He chose to do the same, but at a retarded time. There's a time for calling idiots, idiots just as there's a time to shut up and just keep it to yourself. Hopefully he learned.
No, they aren't entitled to hold a school sanctioned prayer supporting Christianity during a graduation, wasn't stupid for him to try to stop it.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On May 27 2011 22:39 mardi wrote:Prayer shouldn't be in school. Fowler had the right to say that and it is constitutionally correct that prayer should not be in school. He was attacked unnecessarily and that shouldn't have happened if the people attacking him were "religious people". I think its wrong when you have atheists or people who don't believe in your religion having to partake in your religious practice, prayer. That said, there are churches for that and your homes, your cars, or in your private places. Also, the following Show nested quote +One of the chunks of mud that's most commonly slung at atheists is that we're selfish. Amoral. That without a belief in God and the afterlife, people would have no moral compass, and would just act to please themselves, without any consideration for others. That without a belief in eternal punishment in the afterlife for bad behavior, eternal reward in the afterlife for good behavior, and a supernatural authority figure refereeing it all, people would have no reason to be good people, and no reason to avoid doing terrible things. That without religion, people would have no compassion, no sense of justice, no empathy, no desire to see society running smoothly... and would just do whatever we wanted to do. This is a misconception of the Christian religion that believing people who don't believe in Christ are immoral. I know christians who are less moral than nonchristians. Also, becoming a Christian doesn't mean you are becoming a moral person right off the bat. Becoming a moral person might be a byproduct of becoming a Christian and having a sense of morality does not require a person to be religious.
All your points are valid, very well written. I totally agree - what the very Religious (and unfortunately VERY unspiritual) community of Louisiana did here is akin to what Muslims would do to Christians in the Middle East. Persecution, but this time from Christians to a law-abiding atheist. America is still stuck in this whole "God bless America" attitude. No man, God blesses no kingdom but his own. America's just another government of the "world" and not of God's.
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They're idiots. No real Christians should be so full of hatred and anger. Even as a person of religious faith, Fowler is still a wonderful human being for being able to stand up against such bigotry.
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On May 27 2011 22:48 Divine-Sneaker wrote:
The entire situation to me sounds like it was derived simply because everyone involved were a bunch of sore asses who cannot handle other people disagreeing. Stupid of him to start it, just as stupid and twice as mean of the rest to follow up like they did.
As much as a hate how most heavily religious people act, they're entirely entitled to be that way and I rightfully so shouldn't be able to do anything else than argue with them however little it would matter.
He chose to do the same, but at a retarded time. There's a time for calling idiots, idiots just as there's a time to shut up and just keep it to yourself. Hopefully he learned.
It's incredibly brave to stand up against everyone against a public institution breaking the law, especially so when you risk being shunned as a young person.
With time you learn to pick your battles, but it's very brave to actually be the one to stand up and dare voice your opinion. The school was breaking the law, and then tiptoed around the issue on the graduation by having a student doing the prayer, only this time by proxy.
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After reading the article this seemed much more an individualism vs. collectivism issue that has been painted Chrisitianity vs. Atheism. America highly values individualism compared to many other cultures and you can see it coming out in this boys actions. In other cultures his actions would have received the same or worse treatment. In his community they apparently valued collectivism more. One or the other isn't better or right as far as I can tell.
Not to disregard the Christian aspect of the story, their actions are disappointing and not at all what a follower of Christ should do, regardless if you believe there is a God or not.
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Isn't Christian religion based on forgiveness and understanding? Live and let live ??
/sigh, people and their imaginary friends huh?
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Sigh..
I don't even know what to say to this.
I am an atheist, but I respect people's rights to have their own religion, why can't they do the same back to us?
(Also, this reminds me of the episode of Family Guy where Brian is revealed to be atheist and is then shunned/etc by the whole town)
What happened to the golden rule we all learned in kindergarten?
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On May 27 2011 22:16 Kukaracha wrote:
Most animals don't have morals, but simple habits.
We are animals too. What we call "Morals" are just community life rules to ensure the order and survey of our huge human group. Nothing more. It's not something "Higher" than animals. We are more intelligent, but we dont act much differently than other animals.
Monkeys have it, lions too, and most of animals living in community. It's more complicated for humans, there are more rules and our children need more time to learn it from their parents, but it's EXACTLY the same thing.
What append in this case? A young lion dont like the rule of the familly, it's annoying for the members of the group, so he is banned from it. Nothing surprising, it's a normal animal (so a human aswell) reaction. Very common in nature.
Is it good or bad? Both i would say, it depend if you feel like the young lion or like the group.
This is not a troll, it's exactly the way i think.
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On May 27 2011 22:28 Tony Campolo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 22:22 shell wrote:
Is this what Christianity preaches? I mean if you have a son that doesn't follow your faith is it ok to kick them out of your house?
I know it's not, because my family is also Christian but I'm not! I've had thousands of discussions about religion with my parents and in the end i always "win" because deep in their hearts they know the truth.. There is no "gods" because if they existed they wouldn't allow people to hurt or kill others in their name!
think about it! we all know the truth even if we can't or don't want to get rid of religion!
It's sad for the kid but I'm even sadder for the ones that did this because:
a) Jesus forgives.. why can't you?
b) kicking a son out of the house = going to hell
c) Louisiana is full of religious bigots against a kid
PS: all other religious are the same to me - a bunch of crap! Sorry but Jesus had very little time for those who did not share His faith: Jesus’ Mother and Brothers 46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” 48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” The Cost of Following Jesus 18 When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. 19 Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.” 20 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” 21 Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” 22 But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.” 25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. 61 Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.” 62 Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”
Are you quoting from a fictional book called the bible? Sorry i don't recognize anything in that book besides some people and places! Jesus was a normal man! Or do you also believe in the de devil? saints? Ghosts? Werewolfs? Vampires? Ninja turtles?
I understand what you are talking about but i simply can't accept the use of any religious book to serve has a reference or fact. Besides the bible is much more then 2000 years old, was being written longe before Jesus Christ supostly ever walked on earth and it has lost many words to wrong translations..
I only have one faith, the faith in humanity and man even that one has left me a long time ago
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I applaud this kid for being so brave and I'm totally disgusted by his community and especially by his parents. I mean imprison him and steal his cellphone?
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On May 27 2011 21:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 20:21 ZessiM wrote:
Wanting to protest something unconstitutional = insolent jackass. Wow, who knew. Thanks TL.
I hope you're listening Rosa Parks.
Can we please not compare having to listen to a prayer with racism? -.- There are degrees of wrong. Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 21:55 Lanfire wrote:atheism does not give you anything to base it on i dont think you are right. Every human being has a general idea of good and bad. that seperatus us from the animals Lol what? We are not born with morals, and (other) animals are not so without their own morals, they just arent the same as ours.
In the legal sense the government endorsing/sponsoring a religion is constitutionally wrong, whereas the racism was as well constitutionally wrong, therein lies the relevance of the person you quoted and what they are saying. I doubt they were making that point however.
On the subject of morality, Jinro, many neurologists, biologists, and memeticists would disagree with you on that.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1187047/Animals-tell-right-wrong-Scientists-suggest-just-humans-morals.html
There is a tribe of chimps that goes on meat hunts together, and takes in new members. It's interesting because there has evolved a cultural meme of the smaller members to beg for food from the larger members, and depending on the intensity of their begging they get more food.
Rats will not take food if they know it will hurt another rat.
http://www.uctaa.net/articles/reflections/ref03/ref060.html
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