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On May 27 2011 22:03 Albrithe wrote:
I feel bad for this kid. As an Agnostic that was raised as a Christian, I believe that the people ridiculing and threatening this guy are in the wrong. Jesus teaches Christians to do unto others as they would be done unto. So all of these people would want to be ridiculed for standing up for their personal beliefs and the law?
While what they did was very wrong, and I am wholeheartedly against it, try putting yourself in their position. They believe that those who are not fully in support of religion and go to church every Sunday, etc, are going to hell. Here is a person who is interfering with them practicing their beliefs in the graduation ceremony, and he is an atheist. They probably think they are doing the right thing by "encouraging" him to change his ways by showing him that what he is doing is wrong.
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On May 27 2011 21:59 Omegalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 21:45 JinDesu wrote:
He said, how does religion define absolute morality - by having absurd punishments for crimes, some of which are not crimes or are outdated ideas of crimes. He then said, you cannot just rely religious text for morality; morality should be something that is logically built upon and designed to be good. He then also said, religious people do that, because they look to their religious text and cherry pick the bits that they agree with and regard the rest as "archaic fanatical stuff".
Essentially he says that religion doesn't define morality. People define morality. I don't care how religion defines it: it does not answer the question. Atheism, as a belief system (the system of not believing there is a God) does not depend on religion, so the answer should not pertain to it. An absolute moral code does not in any way depend on archaic religious texts. It depends on the development of the system, in much the same way that he describes the abolition of slavery and such. The only difference is that religion's absolute moral code was developed a long time ago. Even then, religion does not matter in this case. In short, morality does not depend on it being in religious texts, and so one cannot use the religious texts as an excuse to answer the question. The question was that atheism does not have an absolute moral code, so as a whole it cannot proclaim things as right or wrong.
Are you saying that religion provides a moral code because there was an absolute moral code defined by the religion a long time ago, and that it is the development of the system (that absolute code) to provide morality? If so, what prevents atheists from having a moral code defined? How did religion get their absolute code, and how does this bar atheists from developing their own?
Or are you saying that it doesn't matter what the religion says - religious people have an absolute moral code regardless?
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On May 27 2011 22:06 Omegalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 22:03 Albrithe wrote:
I feel bad for this kid. As an Agnostic that was raised as a Christian, I believe that the people ridiculing and threatening this guy are in the wrong. Jesus teaches Christians to do unto others as they would be done unto. So all of these people would want to be ridiculed for standing up for their personal beliefs and the law? While what they did was very wrong, and I am wholeheartedly against it, try putting yourself in their position. They believe that those who are not fully in support of religion and go to church every Sunday, etc, are going to hell. Here is a person who is interfering with them practicing their beliefs in the graduation ceremony, and he is an atheist. They probably think they are doing the right thing by "encouraging" him to change his ways by showing him that what he is doing is wrong.
Then they probably think wrong.
EDIT: To quote the morality in the bible
Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
EDIT2:
Exodus 35:2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
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On May 27 2011 16:02 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 15:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 27 2011 15:37 Emperor_Earth wrote:On May 27 2011 15:20 KSMB wrote:On May 27 2011 15:15 atheistaphobe wrote:Social Sciences prove again and again that devout Christians live a healthier life and that prayer has an effect. Absolute horseshit. As an atheist, I'm going to have to side with atheistaphobe here. Humans tend to live longer and be more productive when they are given a focus/direction. Religion has, in many cases, been a very organized way to align one's views/goals/life around. In fact, I would argue that this was the original idea of religion at the tribe level. Get a group of men who need each other for their best chance of survival something separate to believe in together. A bonding experience at a tertiary level that allows for greater trust and harmony when you start running around with weapons... hopefully aimed at animals or rival tribes. I agree that focus and direction are very important, but they certainly aren't exclusive to religion. Furthermore, I feel that the central problem is dogmatically believing things on faith, rather than accepting things on empirical evidence. Those who are religious often believe in supernatural forces and take other things on faith, and these irrational beliefs lead to irrational actions, which harm society. Religion has never actually provided humanity with any knowledge, medicine, or technology. Literally all abstract and concrete advancements have come through fields such as mathematics, logic, and science. If religion never existed, the world certainly wouldn't be worse off. Please do not put words in my mouth. I never stated that religion can exclusively provide focus and direction. Religion has most definitely provided (both directly and indirectly) humanity with knowledge, medicine, and technology. A simple example, religion was the basis of critical thinking in Germany circa Martin Luther era. Luther challenged his people to use a translated German bible rather than rely on a "Father" to preach an archaic and inaccessible Latin version of the Bible. I believe that this earlier and heavily reinforced critical thinking style helps distinguish Germans from their very similar European neighbors. I also believe that organized religion is good for the layman who doesn't really care what the truth is. Just give him some medium that he can share in a communal sense of belonging and social enrichment that helps to assauge pains of dath of loved ones and gives answers to things he doesn't really have time as he goes about his daily life.
I didn't say that you said religion can exclusively provide focus and direction. And your example of people reading from a book as an exercise is not the religious practice instilling knowledge; it's merely learning the translations of words, which has nothing to do with the religion itself. The words themselves weren't anything special; religion didn't advance knowledge in your example. Anything could have been written down and asked to be translated. It could have been The Cat In The Hat (had it been around at the time).
And I also agree with you that the layman may employ religion as a defense mechanism for those who don't "really care what the truth is", but that just further proves my point.
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yeah, my high school graduation is happening at a MASSIVE...and i mean MASSSSSIIIIVVEEE (think if two ultralisks could make an ultralisk archon that could shit collosi) church with a giant cross behind the stage. And the class president's speech mentions "God" and "blessings" about 20-30 times. There has been a debate as a result of the venue because the school system was charged with a lawsuit against having graduation at the church, and everyone was just AHHH THEY CANT DO THAT RAAHHHhhh, And then one of my teachers made a huge point: Where would you stand if instead of a church, we were having graduation at a mosque or a Buddhist temple?
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Atheist Daniel in the Christian lion's den?
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On May 27 2011 21:59 Omegalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 21:45 JinDesu wrote:
He said, how does religion define absolute morality - by having absurd punishments for crimes, some of which are not crimes or are outdated ideas of crimes. He then said, you cannot just rely religious text for morality; morality should be something that is logically built upon and designed to be good. He then also said, religious people do that, because they look to their religious text and cherry pick the bits that they agree with and regard the rest as "archaic fanatical stuff".
Essentially he says that religion doesn't define morality. People define morality. I don't care how religion defines it: it does not answer the question. Atheism, as a belief system (the system of not believing there is a God) does not depend on religion, so the answer should not pertain to it. An absolute moral code does not in any way depend on archaic religious texts. It depends on the development of the system, in much the same way that he describes the abolition of slavery and such. The only difference is that religion's absolute moral code was developed a long time ago. Even then, religion does not matter in this case. In short, morality does not depend on it being in religious texts, and so one cannot use the religious texts as an excuse to answer the question. The question was that atheism does not have an absolute moral code, so as a whole it cannot proclaim things as right or wrong.
That is why atheists do not base their moral codes on atheism, but on other things and therefore they can proclaim things as right or wrong. The guy he reacted to makes the mistake in presuming that being atheist means you cannot also be utilitarian, .... .
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Kid asks privately that the constitution and the law be upheld. Becomes a pariah in the community.
I live in the South and most schools manage to get by. A lot of them have daily "moments of silence"; the obvious implication is that this is a time you can pray, but the school isn't officially endorsing Christianity or anything else by setting aside this time. I imagine that if the same outcome had happened at this kid's school he would've been happy, I don't think he was pitching a fit because he doesn't like hearing prayer. He just thinks the Constitution and the law should be followed. What a crazy idea.
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On May 27 2011 22:01 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 21:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 27 2011 20:21 ZessiM wrote:
Wanting to protest something unconstitutional = insolent jackass. Wow, who knew. Thanks TL.
I hope you're listening Rosa Parks.
Can we please not compare having to listen to a prayer with racism? -.- There are degrees of wrong. On May 27 2011 21:55 Lanfire wrote:atheism does not give you anything to base it on i dont think you are right. Every human being has a general idea of good and bad. that seperatus us from the animals Lol what? We are not born with morals, and (other) animals are not so without their own morals, they just arent the same as ours. i dont see how racism is any worse than religious bigotry. and we are born with some morals : ) see my post in the morality thread
I am 100% in favour of bigotry against religious people who believe in a psychotic God who will enslave and torture people that choose not to worship His egotistical highness for all eternity in Hell, just as I am 100% bigoted against racists (such as the KKK) who believe blacks need to be slaves.
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On May 27 2011 22:04 Ingenol wrote:
This is why we shouldn't have public schools.
Then what schools should we have? Should education be solely based on religion then?
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On May 27 2011 22:11 Vestige wrote:
yeah, my high school graduation is happening at a MASSIVE...and i mean MASSSSSIIIIVVEEE (think if two ultralisks could make an ultralisk archon that could shit collosi) church with a giant cross behind the stage. And the class president's speech mentions "God" and "blessings" about 20-30 times. There has been a debate as a result of the venue because the school system was charged with a lawsuit against having graduation at the church, and everyone was just AHHH THEY CANT DO THAT RAAHHHhhh, And then one of my teachers made a huge point: Where would you stand if instead of a church, we were having graduation at a mosque or a Buddhist temple?
Wouldn't they all be illegal? Just hold the graduation at school or something...
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On May 27 2011 22:06 Omegalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 22:03 Albrithe wrote:
I feel bad for this kid. As an Agnostic that was raised as a Christian, I believe that the people ridiculing and threatening this guy are in the wrong. Jesus teaches Christians to do unto others as they would be done unto. So all of these people would want to be ridiculed for standing up for their personal beliefs and the law? While what they did was very wrong, and I am wholeheartedly against it, try putting yourself in their position. They believe that those who are not fully in support of religion and go to church every Sunday, etc, are going to hell. Here is a person who is interfering with them practicing their beliefs in the graduation ceremony, and he is an atheist. They probably think they are doing the right thing by "encouraging" him to change his ways by showing him that what he is doing is wrong.
It's not church though. It's not Sunday. They're not encouraging him to change his ways. They're sending him death threats and kicking him out of his house.
I think that of all the people involved, his brother is probably acting the most Christian. Taking in your brother, supporting him, and helping him through college against your parents wishes is awesome.
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So, its illegal for the school to lead prayers etc right? What about the students, are they also not allowed to lead one?
I went to bed but I'd like to answer this. Recently there was a court case in which a student cheerleader refused to cheer for a member of the school team who had sexually assaulted her. When she didnot cheer the school suspended her. The case went to court and the decision was that since she was representing the school, she didn't have the freedom to violate the school rules. And remember this is a victim of assault not cheering for the animal who assaulted her.
Its not completely similar but I do believe if the students leading the prayer in the event is considered to be representing the school it should be illegal. I am not a lawyer (or a judge!) but instinctively I would find it wrong especially if the school encouraged the violation.
Now if the student just prayed when they received their diplomas (is that what you call the high school graduation thing?) it would be alright. But instead they prayed before the start of the ceremony as representative of the school. (the video is up on youtube in case anyone wants to see the girl being a total bitch over the prayer).
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The application of separation of church and state here is a bit complicated, especially when the school actually complied and canceled the prayer. The prayer happened anyway, but because a senior brought it up of her own volition kind puts her under free speech in that situation. The point when things started going very wrong is when the community found out that he was trying to get the prayer canceled. It's not necessarily the school that is at fault there, depending on how the information traveled. It's possible it spread from Damon/Damon's friends into the school environment and became a hot topic. The school was in a bad position as they could not avoid what the student asked for as it is a law. They could not avoid telling the community the prayer was getting canceled and if the rumor started from the students peers they couldn't really protect him from the community being able to point at him.
There was a shitstorm button in that school's office and the kid walked up and pressed it. You can't undo something like that once you start it. The whole community was suddenly turned on him. I doubt really that his parents ostracizing him had to do with his religious choice. More that he managed press such a really sore issue and turn his whole community against him. They had a choice to support him and be alienated in the community or join in on the shitstorm. Sadly I feel they made the wrong choice. Thank god that he has a brother worth a damn.
I can't help but ponder if he was to sue, who would he target? The obvious answer is the school, but what if it can be proved that it wasn't the schools fault the rumor spread? Really it was the community that wrong him.
It's a very cynical thing to say (funny because i think most atheist are fond of cynicism) but i can't help but feel that the atheist community jumped to help him to make the illusion that this is a Atheists are good, Christian's are oppressors type of situation. This whole clusterfuck just showcases a fundamental issue in America arising specifically with atheism. When the atheist kid tries to cancel the prayer, he is in a way forcing his religious point of view on the majority. That kind of thing is obviously explosive. He succeeded in that the prayer was officially canceled, but the community being what it was, someone said a prayer anyway...and what was the school supposed to do then? Try to shut the girl up? imo, the school was pulled into a snare trap just like the student. I'm sorry for him, I hope he can forgive people who did evil to him and recognize why things why things happened the way they did. The fault was in part on everyone involved, but the greater evil is obviously the way the community handled it.
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On May 27 2011 22:01 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 21:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 27 2011 20:21 ZessiM wrote:
Wanting to protest something unconstitutional = insolent jackass. Wow, who knew. Thanks TL.
I hope you're listening Rosa Parks.
Can we please not compare having to listen to a prayer with racism? -.- There are degrees of wrong. On May 27 2011 21:55 Lanfire wrote:atheism does not give you anything to base it on i dont think you are right. Every human being has a general idea of good and bad. that seperatus us from the animals Lol what? We are not born with morals, and (other) animals are not so without their own morals, they just arent the same as ours. and we are born with some morals : ) see my post in the morality thread
You're confusing morals with the notion of right and wrong. Morals spring from our notion of right and wrong as a sophistication.
Right and wrong is knowing that walking backwards is "wrong", and moving forward is "right". Morality is going on to learn that walking on your feet is right, but walking on your kees is "inappropriate".
Most animals don't have morals, but simple habits.
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On May 27 2011 21:43 Lanfire wrote:Show nested quote +Because it's illegal and unconstitutional for the school to lead a prayer during an event like a graduation. Yes you are right ( dont know your constitution) but still i dont get what the big deal is here. There are worse things in life to endore and alot of probably unconstitutional situations in anyones life ( privacy/ Patriot act ). I just dont get the whole OMG im going to sue you for this mentality.
The BIG DEAL here is that the injustice saw the light.
It isn`t only about the forced, unconstitutional prayer and refusal of a student. This is only the surface issue.
This showed the real problem - what truly was behind all this - all that cruelty, blindness, abuse, control and TERRIBLE hipocrisy.
It showed what was behind these deceitful religious masks - these compassionless, loveless mummy showing its frail, rotten skin.
+ Show Spoiler + This is simply direct, I`m not proclaiming any hate or disdan towards people involved in this. They are just completely lost, misguided and knowing what this religion is - it is very understandable and requires compassion, understanding - not more of hatred.
Its not all right to go about life and pretend to not notice the inustice or abuse. This is WHY injustice and abuse prevails - because people like you think its all right to not give a shit - because of this self-absorbtion.
We all need to wake up. When the injustice is commited - it needs to be pointed out without overcaring about consequences.
It has to be. Otherwise we are telling those who commit it - 'go ahead' - and everyone should be aware what it means and where it leads us.
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On May 27 2011 22:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 22:01 turdburgler wrote:On May 27 2011 21:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 27 2011 20:21 ZessiM wrote:
Wanting to protest something unconstitutional = insolent jackass. Wow, who knew. Thanks TL.
I hope you're listening Rosa Parks.
Can we please not compare having to listen to a prayer with racism? -.- There are degrees of wrong. On May 27 2011 21:55 Lanfire wrote:atheism does not give you anything to base it on i dont think you are right. Every human being has a general idea of good and bad. that seperatus us from the animals Lol what? We are not born with morals, and (other) animals are not so without their own morals, they just arent the same as ours. i dont see how racism is any worse than religious bigotry. and we are born with some morals : ) see my post in the morality thread Its not religious bigotry to lead a prayer in school. What they did AFTERWARDS might be bigotry however and is a bigger problem.
but as has been brought up before. this is specifically a christian prayer. there was no offer of any multifaith or humanistic talking. which is bigotry when state funded organisations are not allowed to favour 1 side over the other
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On May 27 2011 22:13 Vain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 22:04 Ingenol wrote:
This is why we shouldn't have public schools. Then what schools should we have? Should education be solely based on religion then?
Private ones. Then schools could decide their platform and cater to the desires of parents. Better schools would be more popular and make more money.
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On May 27 2011 22:04 Ingenol wrote:
This is why we shouldn't have public schools.
Wrong. This is why we shouldn't have religion in schools. (except as a subject where you objectively learn about all the biggest religions)
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On May 27 2011 22:16 SolidZeal wrote:
The application of separation of church and state here is a bit complicated, especially when the school actually complied and canceled the prayer. The prayer happened anyway, but because a senior brought it up of her own volition kind puts her under free speech in that situation. The point when things started going very wrong is when the community found out that he was trying to get the prayer canceled. It's not necessarily the school that is at fault there, depending on how the information traveled. It's possible it spread from Damon/Damon's friends into the school environment and became a hot topic. The school was in a bad position as they could not avoid what the student asked for as it is a law. They could not avoid telling the community the prayer was getting canceled and if the rumor started from the students peers they couldn't really protect him from the community being able to point at him.
There was a shitstorm button in that school's office and the kid walked up and pressed it. You can't undo something like that once you start it. The whole community was suddenly turned on him. I doubt really that his parents ostracizing him had to do with his religious choice. More that he managed press such a really sore issue and turn his whole community against him. They had a choice to support him and be alienated in the community or join in on the shitstorm. Sadly I feel they made the wrong choice. Thank god that he has a brother worth a damn.
I can't help but ponder if he was to sue, who would he target? The obvious answer is the school, but what if it can be proved that it wasn't the schools fault the rumor spread? Really it was the community that wrong him.
It's a very cynical thing to say (funny because i think most atheist are fond of cynicism) but i can't help but feel that the atheist community jumped to help him to make the illusion that this is a Atheists are good, Christian's are oppressors type of situation. This whole clusterfuck just showcases a fundamental issue in America arising specifically with atheism. When the atheist kid tries to cancel the prayer, he is in a way forcing his religious point of view on the majority. That kind of thing is obviously explosive. He succeeded in that the prayer was officially canceled, but the community being what it was, someone said a prayer anyway...and what was the school supposed to do then? Try to shut the girl up? imo, the school was pulled into a snare trap just like the student. I'm sorry for him, I hope he can forgive people who did evil to him and recognize why things why things happened the way they did. The fault was in part on everyone involved, but the greater evil is obviously the way the community handled it.
No, he was NOT forcing his viewpoint on them, it was vice versa. The school did not have the right to hold a prayer during a graduation, and the kid mentioned should not just have to "accept". He was merely not allowing their viewpoint to be forced on him.
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