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On April 29 2011 01:01 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 00:56 VIB wrote:On April 29 2011 00:43 Arkless wrote:On April 29 2011 00:09 scouting overlord wrote:On April 29 2011 00:08 eLiE wrote:On April 29 2011 00:03 scouting overlord wrote:On April 28 2011 23:56 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 28 2011 18:21 scouting overlord wrote:
I'm pointing out that you're all more than likely male with no idea what it's like to bear or raise a child, especially one which has been accidentally or unwillingly conceived or has been diagnosed with a serious illness inutero. A female should be the one allowed to make a decision On April 28 2011 18:32 scouting overlord wrote:
Cry me a river macho man, it's her child in her body and you have no leg to stand on if you've broken up with her in pregnancy, you know the most important time to care for your wife? On April 28 2011 18:37 scouting overlord wrote:Thanks for just being outright misogynist for people to see  . Helps illustrate what kind of man cares more for an unconscious cellular mass than a fully developed human being. On April 28 2011 18:53 scouting overlord wrote:Maybe next life you can experience how great it is to be female in this world, with Brave Men FIGHTING FOR THE UNBORN RIGHTS, but for now you'll just have to wait. On April 28 2011 19:07 scouting overlord wrote:You are crazy, just so you know. None of your points are intelligent or relevant to real life. "Anti-life" isn't a position people take. Please return to whatever conservative white male-dominated echo chamber you came from. On April 28 2011 19:10 scouting overlord wrote:
You have never experienced pregnancy. You never will experience pregnancy. No male will, and it's a greater burden on the women, both mentally and physically, than whatever "statistics" and "labor" the court puts on you. It will scar her body and mind for life, not just for when the court dictates your "labor time" On April 28 2011 19:12 scouting overlord wrote:
I'll let this slide as you defend the women's right to abortion at least. But trust me on this, nothing you ever experience is even close to childbirth. It isn't 'only' or 'just' 9 months from the women's point of view, and you should respect that. No one should be forced to go through childbirth unwillingly. On April 28 2011 19:13 scouting overlord wrote:
It's based around pregnancy being a burden wholly put on the woman and her body you fucking mong. On April 28 2011 19:27 scouting overlord wrote:A man does not get pregnant . It's not even close to 50/50. You have no idea what pregnancy does to a person's body and mind. Women don't leave men to spite them out of child support. Taking your child from the biological father isn't something women just do to 'run off with another man'. I suppose I could go on with the quotes, but I think these are sufficient to my point. Throwing your gender around for the purpose of squelching debate is a disingenuous (not to mention tedious) way to argue. It’s also somewhat questionable that your position revolves around men being unable to understand a female perspective, yet you seem to have an exhaustive knowledge of what’s going on in the misogynistic and naïve minds of the males with whom you’re speaking. Personally, I would love to hear your opinion on abortion if it involves something other than gender stereotypes, angry dismissals of opposing viewpoints, and the old you-can’t-possibly-understand-what-it’s-like- for me! assertion that you’re the only individual in the discussion with a leg to stand on. You think pregnancy and abortion is a gender-neutral issue? Do you think pregnancy and abortion is as hard on the male as the female, and that the male's judgement is greater or equal to a female's on this issue? You are a very special person, like many proud Americans. Thanks for picking out all of the gender related arguments from the female perspective by the way, while ignoring the many from the male side lol, there's no point, man. It's just something we have to ignore at this time. No point for a privileged first world male to have an opinion on, I agree -- they'll likely never encounter the grief of an unwanted child in their lifetime . Edit: Especially one that they can't afford to care for First I must ask, are you female? Because you seem to forget that creating a child takes two people, man AND woman. What if the woman just decided to get the baby aborted but the man totally wanted it. Was prepared for it, and everything else. WTF is that? I understand the it's a womans body argument, but to think someones lover got his baby aborted doesnt mentally affect the male. Then you are just plain stupid. You throw out misogynist like 50x but I think a more apt description for you is radical feminist. Because you clearly have no idea, have never had a child. Nor had a child aborted. Why does it matter if it mentally affects the man? A lot of illogical stupid thing can mentally affect the men. At the end of the today you can just go cum on someone else. But she will still go through all of the trouble of carrying a baby inside her for 9 months regardless of what you do. The man's feelings are just as important as a woman's on everything of course, even biogical events that a man cannot even begin to imagine the experience of. I'm some crazy radical feminist for suggesting that the woman's say over her own body is more important than her lover's.
Fact of the matter is, the decision to abort is contructed as a medical one, taken by doctors in their patients' best interests, it is unsurprising that the pregnant woman's sexual partner has no right to obstruct medical discretion and prevent her from obtaining an abortion.
Plus, it would be very difficult for the law to impose a pregnany on a woman who wants to get an abortion...
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On April 29 2011 01:12 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 01:09 scouting overlord wrote:
That's not what I am discussing.
Get out of a discussion thread about abortion then? You have nothing to add except laughable logic 101 burns and gripes about me, why even post? You can PM me if you want instead. You're making nothing but angry and substanceless posts in this thread. Pointing that out is relevant to this thread, as refraining from such posting behavior allows the rest of teamliquid to discuss the topic in a mutually helpful way.
I'm defending the viewpoint that a woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy beyond the 20th week of pregnancy, and that there is no basis, especially one grounded in an appeal to humanity, to restrict abortions to the 20th week. I'm sure this is 'substanceless' in whatever epic halls of debate you usually inhabit, but it's very relevent to the topic at hand.
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On April 29 2011 01:00 PolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 00:56 VIB wrote:On April 29 2011 00:43 Arkless wrote:On April 29 2011 00:09 scouting overlord wrote:On April 29 2011 00:08 eLiE wrote:On April 29 2011 00:03 scouting overlord wrote:On April 28 2011 23:56 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 28 2011 18:21 scouting overlord wrote:
I'm pointing out that you're all more than likely male with no idea what it's like to bear or raise a child, especially one which has been accidentally or unwillingly conceived or has been diagnosed with a serious illness inutero. A female should be the one allowed to make a decision On April 28 2011 18:32 scouting overlord wrote:
Cry me a river macho man, it's her child in her body and you have no leg to stand on if you've broken up with her in pregnancy, you know the most important time to care for your wife? On April 28 2011 18:37 scouting overlord wrote:Thanks for just being outright misogynist for people to see . Helps illustrate what kind of man cares more for an unconscious cellular mass than a fully developed human being. On April 28 2011 18:53 scouting overlord wrote:Maybe next life you can experience how great it is to be female in this world, with Brave Men FIGHTING FOR THE UNBORN RIGHTS, but for now you'll just have to wait. On April 28 2011 19:07 scouting overlord wrote:You are crazy, just so you know. None of your points are intelligent or relevant to real life. "Anti-life" isn't a position people take. Please return to whatever conservative white male-dominated echo chamber you came from. On April 28 2011 19:10 scouting overlord wrote:
You have never experienced pregnancy. You never will experience pregnancy. No male will, and it's a greater burden on the women, both mentally and physically, than whatever "statistics" and "labor" the court puts on you. It will scar her body and mind for life, not just for when the court dictates your "labor time" On April 28 2011 19:12 scouting overlord wrote:
I'll let this slide as you defend the women's right to abortion at least. But trust me on this, nothing you ever experience is even close to childbirth. It isn't 'only' or 'just' 9 months from the women's point of view, and you should respect that. No one should be forced to go through childbirth unwillingly. On April 28 2011 19:13 scouting overlord wrote:
It's based around pregnancy being a burden wholly put on the woman and her body you fucking mong. On April 28 2011 19:27 scouting overlord wrote:A man does not get pregnant . It's not even close to 50/50. You have no idea what pregnancy does to a person's body and mind. Women don't leave men to spite them out of child support. Taking your child from the biological father isn't something women just do to 'run off with another man'. I suppose I could go on with the quotes, but I think these are sufficient to my point. Throwing your gender around for the purpose of squelching debate is a disingenuous (not to mention tedious) way to argue. It’s also somewhat questionable that your position revolves around men being unable to understand a female perspective, yet you seem to have an exhaustive knowledge of what’s going on in the misogynistic and naïve minds of the males with whom you’re speaking. Personally, I would love to hear your opinion on abortion if it involves something other than gender stereotypes, angry dismissals of opposing viewpoints, and the old you-can’t-possibly-understand-what-it’s-like- for me! assertion that you’re the only individual in the discussion with a leg to stand on. You think pregnancy and abortion is a gender-neutral issue? Do you think pregnancy and abortion is as hard on the male as the female, and that the male's judgement is greater or equal to a female's on this issue? You are a very special person, like many proud Americans. Thanks for picking out all of the gender related arguments from the female perspective by the way, while ignoring the many from the male side lol, there's no point, man. It's just something we have to ignore at this time. No point for a privileged first world male to have an opinion on, I agree -- they'll likely never encounter the grief of an unwanted child in their lifetime . Edit: Especially one that they can't afford to care for First I must ask, are you female? Because you seem to forget that creating a child takes two people, man AND woman. What if the woman just decided to get the baby aborted but the man totally wanted it. Was prepared for it, and everything else. WTF is that? I understand the it's a womans body argument, but to think someones lover got his baby aborted doesnt mentally affect the male. Then you are just plain stupid. You throw out misogynist like 50x but I think a more apt description for you is radical feminist. Because you clearly have no idea, have never had a child. Nor had a child aborted. Why does it matter if it mentally affects the man? A lot of illogical stupid thing can mentally affect the men. At the end of the today you can just go cum on someone else. But she will still go through all of the trouble of carrying a baby inside her for 9 months regardless of what you do. You just answered his question. It also sounds like you are very bitter from a past experience with a boyfriend (or husband?). I'm sorry for that, but you don't have to be spitting venom every time you try to discuss the topic at hand. Show nested quote +Why does it matter if it mentally affects the man? A lot of illogical stupid thing can mentally affect the men. I'm not even going to get into this with you. You are not helping with the discussion, and I'd like to ask for you to refrain from posting anything else, please.
You're confusing me with the girl who they were talking about, pay attention to who you quote  I'm a man who thinks the woman should have the final word about what to do with her own body.
Of course both parties should talk it out and come to consensus. But failing that, no matter what you decide to do, it's still her belly carrying a baby for 9 months. She's in a much better position to decide what's good for herself than we are.
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On April 29 2011 01:14 ShovZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 01:01 scouting overlord wrote:On April 29 2011 00:56 VIB wrote:On April 29 2011 00:43 Arkless wrote:On April 29 2011 00:09 scouting overlord wrote:On April 29 2011 00:08 eLiE wrote:On April 29 2011 00:03 scouting overlord wrote:On April 28 2011 23:56 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 28 2011 18:21 scouting overlord wrote:
I'm pointing out that you're all more than likely male with no idea what it's like to bear or raise a child, especially one which has been accidentally or unwillingly conceived or has been diagnosed with a serious illness inutero. A female should be the one allowed to make a decision On April 28 2011 18:32 scouting overlord wrote:
Cry me a river macho man, it's her child in her body and you have no leg to stand on if you've broken up with her in pregnancy, you know the most important time to care for your wife? On April 28 2011 18:37 scouting overlord wrote:Thanks for just being outright misogynist for people to see . Helps illustrate what kind of man cares more for an unconscious cellular mass than a fully developed human being. On April 28 2011 18:53 scouting overlord wrote:Maybe next life you can experience how great it is to be female in this world, with Brave Men FIGHTING FOR THE UNBORN RIGHTS, but for now you'll just have to wait. On April 28 2011 19:07 scouting overlord wrote:You are crazy, just so you know. None of your points are intelligent or relevant to real life. "Anti-life" isn't a position people take. Please return to whatever conservative white male-dominated echo chamber you came from. On April 28 2011 19:10 scouting overlord wrote:
You have never experienced pregnancy. You never will experience pregnancy. No male will, and it's a greater burden on the women, both mentally and physically, than whatever "statistics" and "labor" the court puts on you. It will scar her body and mind for life, not just for when the court dictates your "labor time" On April 28 2011 19:12 scouting overlord wrote:
I'll let this slide as you defend the women's right to abortion at least. But trust me on this, nothing you ever experience is even close to childbirth. It isn't 'only' or 'just' 9 months from the women's point of view, and you should respect that. No one should be forced to go through childbirth unwillingly. On April 28 2011 19:13 scouting overlord wrote:
It's based around pregnancy being a burden wholly put on the woman and her body you fucking mong. On April 28 2011 19:27 scouting overlord wrote:A man does not get pregnant . It's not even close to 50/50. You have no idea what pregnancy does to a person's body and mind. Women don't leave men to spite them out of child support. Taking your child from the biological father isn't something women just do to 'run off with another man'. I suppose I could go on with the quotes, but I think these are sufficient to my point. Throwing your gender around for the purpose of squelching debate is a disingenuous (not to mention tedious) way to argue. It’s also somewhat questionable that your position revolves around men being unable to understand a female perspective, yet you seem to have an exhaustive knowledge of what’s going on in the misogynistic and naïve minds of the males with whom you’re speaking. Personally, I would love to hear your opinion on abortion if it involves something other than gender stereotypes, angry dismissals of opposing viewpoints, and the old you-can’t-possibly-understand-what-it’s-like- for me! assertion that you’re the only individual in the discussion with a leg to stand on. You think pregnancy and abortion is a gender-neutral issue? Do you think pregnancy and abortion is as hard on the male as the female, and that the male's judgement is greater or equal to a female's on this issue? You are a very special person, like many proud Americans. Thanks for picking out all of the gender related arguments from the female perspective by the way, while ignoring the many from the male side lol, there's no point, man. It's just something we have to ignore at this time. No point for a privileged first world male to have an opinion on, I agree -- they'll likely never encounter the grief of an unwanted child in their lifetime . Edit: Especially one that they can't afford to care for First I must ask, are you female? Because you seem to forget that creating a child takes two people, man AND woman. What if the woman just decided to get the baby aborted but the man totally wanted it. Was prepared for it, and everything else. WTF is that? I understand the it's a womans body argument, but to think someones lover got his baby aborted doesnt mentally affect the male. Then you are just plain stupid. You throw out misogynist like 50x but I think a more apt description for you is radical feminist. Because you clearly have no idea, have never had a child. Nor had a child aborted. Why does it matter if it mentally affects the man? A lot of illogical stupid thing can mentally affect the men. At the end of the today you can just go cum on someone else. But she will still go through all of the trouble of carrying a baby inside her for 9 months regardless of what you do. The man's feelings are just as important as a woman's on everything of course, even biogical events that a man cannot even begin to imagine the experience of. I'm some crazy radical feminist for suggesting that the woman's say over her own body is more important than her lover's. Fact of the matter is, the decision to abort is contructed as a medical one, taken by doctors in their patients' best interests, it is unsurprising that the pregnant woman's sexual partner has no right to obstruct medical discretion and prevent her from obtaining an abortion. Plus, it would be very difficult for the law to impose a pregnany on a woman who wants to get an abortion...
I was taking the piss! But what I expressed is an articulation of a lot of male viewpoints on abortion.
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On April 29 2011 01:15 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 01:12 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 29 2011 01:09 scouting overlord wrote:
That's not what I am discussing.
Get out of a discussion thread about abortion then? You have nothing to add except laughable logic 101 burns and gripes about me, why even post? You can PM me if you want instead. You're making nothing but angry and substanceless posts in this thread. Pointing that out is relevant to this thread, as refraining from such posting behavior allows the rest of teamliquid to discuss the topic in a mutually helpful way. I'm defending the viewpoint that a woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy beyond the 20th week of pregnancy, and that there is no basis, especially one grounded in an appeal to humanity, to restrict abortions to the 20th week. I'm sure this is 'substanceless' in whatever epic halls of debate you usually inhabit, but it's very relevent to the topic at hand.
You are more than welcome to elaborate that opinion, provide rationale, defend your position, etc. etc.. That would be excellent in the context of this thread. What I think you should refrain from doing in service of that opinion is a) claim that the fact that a woman opines it gives it some special status of validity and b) denigrate the intelligences of people who disagree with it.
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On April 29 2011 01:19 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 01:15 scouting overlord wrote:On April 29 2011 01:12 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 29 2011 01:09 scouting overlord wrote:
That's not what I am discussing.
Get out of a discussion thread about abortion then? You have nothing to add except laughable logic 101 burns and gripes about me, why even post? You can PM me if you want instead. You're making nothing but angry and substanceless posts in this thread. Pointing that out is relevant to this thread, as refraining from such posting behavior allows the rest of teamliquid to discuss the topic in a mutually helpful way. I'm defending the viewpoint that a woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy beyond the 20th week of pregnancy, and that there is no basis, especially one grounded in an appeal to humanity, to restrict abortions to the 20th week. I'm sure this is 'substanceless' in whatever epic halls of debate you usually inhabit, but it's very relevent to the topic at hand. You are more than welcome to elaborate that opinion, provide rationale, defend your position, etc. etc.. That would be excellent in the context of this thread. What I think you should refrain from doing in service of that opinion is a) claim that the fact that a woman opines it gives it some special status of validity and b) denigrate the intelligences of people who disagree with it.
That's nice sweety, but I don't care about your feelings or opinion on what constitutes 'substance' and 'contribution', neither do the vast majority of people. Keep it to yourself next time, this is a discussion thread about abortion, and you appear to be lost as you're not discussing anything related to this topic.
By the way, thanks for telling me what I can and can't do I wouldn't have any idea without a big strong man to guide me.
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On April 29 2011 01:09 scouting overlord wrote:Get out of a discussion thread about abortion then? You have nothing to add except laughable logic 101 burns and gripes about me, why even post? You can PM me if you want instead.
Your behaviour in this thread is disrupting the actual discussion because you're just going around insulting and belittling everyone. HULKMANIA is 100% right. Stop it.
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On April 29 2011 01:15 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 01:00 PolSC2 wrote:On April 29 2011 00:56 VIB wrote:On April 29 2011 00:43 Arkless wrote:On April 29 2011 00:09 scouting overlord wrote:On April 29 2011 00:08 eLiE wrote:On April 29 2011 00:03 scouting overlord wrote:On April 28 2011 23:56 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 28 2011 18:21 scouting overlord wrote:
I'm pointing out that you're all more than likely male with no idea what it's like to bear or raise a child, especially one which has been accidentally or unwillingly conceived or has been diagnosed with a serious illness inutero. A female should be the one allowed to make a decision On April 28 2011 18:32 scouting overlord wrote:
Cry me a river macho man, it's her child in her body and you have no leg to stand on if you've broken up with her in pregnancy, you know the most important time to care for your wife? On April 28 2011 18:37 scouting overlord wrote:Thanks for just being outright misogynist for people to see . Helps illustrate what kind of man cares more for an unconscious cellular mass than a fully developed human being. On April 28 2011 18:53 scouting overlord wrote:Maybe next life you can experience how great it is to be female in this world, with Brave Men FIGHTING FOR THE UNBORN RIGHTS, but for now you'll just have to wait. On April 28 2011 19:07 scouting overlord wrote:You are crazy, just so you know. None of your points are intelligent or relevant to real life. "Anti-life" isn't a position people take. Please return to whatever conservative white male-dominated echo chamber you came from. On April 28 2011 19:10 scouting overlord wrote:
You have never experienced pregnancy. You never will experience pregnancy. No male will, and it's a greater burden on the women, both mentally and physically, than whatever "statistics" and "labor" the court puts on you. It will scar her body and mind for life, not just for when the court dictates your "labor time" On April 28 2011 19:12 scouting overlord wrote:
I'll let this slide as you defend the women's right to abortion at least. But trust me on this, nothing you ever experience is even close to childbirth. It isn't 'only' or 'just' 9 months from the women's point of view, and you should respect that. No one should be forced to go through childbirth unwillingly. On April 28 2011 19:13 scouting overlord wrote:
It's based around pregnancy being a burden wholly put on the woman and her body you fucking mong. On April 28 2011 19:27 scouting overlord wrote:A man does not get pregnant . It's not even close to 50/50. You have no idea what pregnancy does to a person's body and mind. Women don't leave men to spite them out of child support. Taking your child from the biological father isn't something women just do to 'run off with another man'. I suppose I could go on with the quotes, but I think these are sufficient to my point. Throwing your gender around for the purpose of squelching debate is a disingenuous (not to mention tedious) way to argue. It’s also somewhat questionable that your position revolves around men being unable to understand a female perspective, yet you seem to have an exhaustive knowledge of what’s going on in the misogynistic and naïve minds of the males with whom you’re speaking. Personally, I would love to hear your opinion on abortion if it involves something other than gender stereotypes, angry dismissals of opposing viewpoints, and the old you-can’t-possibly-understand-what-it’s-like- for me! assertion that you’re the only individual in the discussion with a leg to stand on. You think pregnancy and abortion is a gender-neutral issue? Do you think pregnancy and abortion is as hard on the male as the female, and that the male's judgement is greater or equal to a female's on this issue? You are a very special person, like many proud Americans. Thanks for picking out all of the gender related arguments from the female perspective by the way, while ignoring the many from the male side lol, there's no point, man. It's just something we have to ignore at this time. No point for a privileged first world male to have an opinion on, I agree -- they'll likely never encounter the grief of an unwanted child in their lifetime . Edit: Especially one that they can't afford to care for First I must ask, are you female? Because you seem to forget that creating a child takes two people, man AND woman. What if the woman just decided to get the baby aborted but the man totally wanted it. Was prepared for it, and everything else. WTF is that? I understand the it's a womans body argument, but to think someones lover got his baby aborted doesnt mentally affect the male. Then you are just plain stupid. You throw out misogynist like 50x but I think a more apt description for you is radical feminist. Because you clearly have no idea, have never had a child. Nor had a child aborted. Why does it matter if it mentally affects the man? A lot of illogical stupid thing can mentally affect the men. At the end of the today you can just go cum on someone else. But she will still go through all of the trouble of carrying a baby inside her for 9 months regardless of what you do. You just answered his question. It also sounds like you are very bitter from a past experience with a boyfriend (or husband?). I'm sorry for that, but you don't have to be spitting venom every time you try to discuss the topic at hand. Why does it matter if it mentally affects the man? A lot of illogical stupid thing can mentally affect the men. I'm not even going to get into this with you. You are not helping with the discussion, and I'd like to ask for you to refrain from posting anything else, please. You're confusing me with the girl who they were talking about, pay attention to who you quote I'm a man who thinks the woman should have the final word about what to do with her own body. Of course both parties should talk it out and come to consensus. But failing that, no matter what you decide to do, it's still her belly carrying a baby for 9 months. She's in a much better position to decide what's good for herself than we are.
Oh crap. Sorry! Lol I'm at work, afterall.
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On April 29 2011 01:22 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 01:09 scouting overlord wrote:
That's not what I am discussing.
Get out of a discussion thread about abortion then? You have nothing to add except laughable logic 101 burns and gripes about me, why even post? You can PM me if you want instead. Your behaviour in this thread is disrupting the actual discussion because you're just going around insulting and belittling everyone. HULKMANIA is 100% right. Stop it.
Ever consider that some opinions deserve derision for the benefit of society? That some people cannot be reasoned with, despite arguing against medical knowledge or humanity?
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HULKAMANIA + scouting overlord need to get a room. Don't forget the protection or she might plop out an ultralisk fetus sometime in the 3rd trimester.
This is just nonsense at this point and why this topic shouldn't get discussed on tl.net
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On April 29 2011 01:20 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 01:19 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 29 2011 01:15 scouting overlord wrote:On April 29 2011 01:12 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 29 2011 01:09 scouting overlord wrote:
That's not what I am discussing.
Get out of a discussion thread about abortion then? You have nothing to add except laughable logic 101 burns and gripes about me, why even post? You can PM me if you want instead. You're making nothing but angry and substanceless posts in this thread. Pointing that out is relevant to this thread, as refraining from such posting behavior allows the rest of teamliquid to discuss the topic in a mutually helpful way. I'm defending the viewpoint that a woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy beyond the 20th week of pregnancy, and that there is no basis, especially one grounded in an appeal to humanity, to restrict abortions to the 20th week. I'm sure this is 'substanceless' in whatever epic halls of debate you usually inhabit, but it's very relevent to the topic at hand. You are more than welcome to elaborate that opinion, provide rationale, defend your position, etc. etc.. That would be excellent in the context of this thread. What I think you should refrain from doing in service of that opinion is a) claim that the fact that a woman opines it gives it some special status of validity and b) denigrate the intelligences of people who disagree with it. That's nice sweety, but I don't care about your feelings or opinion on what constitutes 'substance' and 'contribution', neither do the vast majority of people. Keep it to yourself next time, this is a discussion thread about abortion, and you appear to be lost as you're not discussing anything related to this topic. By the way, thanks for telling me what I can and can't do I wouldn't have any idea without a big strong man to guide me.
Once again you're simply being insulting.
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On April 29 2011 01:25 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 01:20 scouting overlord wrote:On April 29 2011 01:19 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 29 2011 01:15 scouting overlord wrote:On April 29 2011 01:12 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 29 2011 01:09 scouting overlord wrote:
That's not what I am discussing.
Get out of a discussion thread about abortion then? You have nothing to add except laughable logic 101 burns and gripes about me, why even post? You can PM me if you want instead. You're making nothing but angry and substanceless posts in this thread. Pointing that out is relevant to this thread, as refraining from such posting behavior allows the rest of teamliquid to discuss the topic in a mutually helpful way. I'm defending the viewpoint that a woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy beyond the 20th week of pregnancy, and that there is no basis, especially one grounded in an appeal to humanity, to restrict abortions to the 20th week. I'm sure this is 'substanceless' in whatever epic halls of debate you usually inhabit, but it's very relevent to the topic at hand. You are more than welcome to elaborate that opinion, provide rationale, defend your position, etc. etc.. That would be excellent in the context of this thread. What I think you should refrain from doing in service of that opinion is a) claim that the fact that a woman opines it gives it some special status of validity and b) denigrate the intelligences of people who disagree with it. That's nice sweety, but I don't care about your feelings or opinion on what constitutes 'substance' and 'contribution', neither do the vast majority of people. Keep it to yourself next time, this is a discussion thread about abortion, and you appear to be lost as you're not discussing anything related to this topic. By the way, thanks for telling me what I can and can't do I wouldn't have any idea without a big strong man to guide me. Once again you're simply being insulting.
Insulting is being told that abortion is murder, and being expected to coddle the stupid in the name of fairness or contribution. I'm sorry this is distressing to you.
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On April 29 2011 01:24 LostDevil wrote:
HULKAMANIA + scouting overlord need to get a room. Don't forget the protection or she might plop out an ultralisk fetus sometime in the 3rd trimester.
This is just nonsense at this point and why this topic shouldn't get discussed on tl.net
That mental image will keep me up tonight. Thanks.
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On April 29 2011 01:00 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 23:51 -Archangel- wrote:On April 28 2011 21:56 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 21:03 -Archangel- wrote:On April 28 2011 20:42 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 20:04 -Archangel- wrote:
12 week fetus is already a really small baby, 20 weeks is pure murder. Statements like these are so detrimental to any worthwhile debate >_> In the end it all comes down to how you define life - is it when sperm meets egg? is it self-sustainability? is it awareness - and what degree of awareness? And 20 weeks seems like an odd time, but if I'm to guess it's because the earliest a baby can survive being born is 15 weeks premature, thus at 20 weeks it still can't survive AND by giving time until week 20 you can actually test for Downs syndrome which is done @ week 16. As a father I felt the need to say this because it is the truth. Even in europe the 3 month limit of being able to preform an abortion is probably too high, but 20 weeks that, I will say it again, is murder. I know how my little girl looked at 20 weeks and nobody can tell me she is not a person or alive. No law can tell me that. Laws are artificial constructions of men, this is nature that is above any human law. It's not the truth - it's your perception which isn't based on anything objective, but "merely" your feelings as a dad. The only reason WHY you even knew how your daughter looked at week 20 in the first place was because you were getting an ultrasound to test wheter or not there were any developmental defects which would make life impossible meaning your wife would've had to abort or give birth to a dead baby. You are being a total hypocrit so take your "I'm telling the truth" BS and shut up or bring some valid arguments. I know I'm VERY blunt, but you do not hold any moral highground in this, stop trying to make it seem like that. And congratulations with your daughter, kids can really be a blessing, but don't try and make your subjective feelings a universal standard. Exactly where the limit should be placed is very hard to decide and tbh I don't think there is any 100% correct answer. I DO however support the option of being able to abort a child with trisomy 21 and thus I also support abortion @ week 16-20 as that is the earliest you can with certainty say wheter or not the mutation is present without an unacceptable risk to the mother or fetus. I am sorry, but you are also just stating your opinion and it is no more true then mine. Science does not 100% know when the baby is aware or if there is something called a soul (a religious version or otherwise). But what is without doubt is that it is alive and a seperate being that depends on the mother to grow and survive at that point. It does not give the mother right to kill it as long as it is going to end up healthy and able to lead a normal life. If the mother/father do not want it, the government can take care of it. Instead of wasting money on abortions and developing technology and drugs for that, that money can be spent into government programs that will let abandoned children find new homes as painless as possible or be able to grow up and have similar chance to be a useful part of society. Difference is that my opinion is morally consistent, yours isn't due to several points: 1) As soon as you begin to talk about exceptions (if the fetus is a result of a rape), you aren't being morally consistent any more - it is still a "life" (according to you) that is being murdered no matter how it was produced. 2) You neglect the mothers right to govern her own body in favor of a lump of cells which as you say yourself can't survive without her. These were only 2 of the reasons, others would be to ask if you used contraceptives? If you mastubated? I could go on... If a rule is to serve universally, consistency is the absolute most important feature...
You got me confused with another poster.
1) I never said raped woman should be able to abort. I only said I support abortion due to medical reasons.
2) When she gives a birth to the baby and does not take care of it, the baby will die. That is not much different then what happens in her body except her body does everything automatically while later she has to do it herself.
I am not sure what are you talking about later. If that was to imply I am a religious freak or something I need to disappoint you as I do not follow any religion and do not believe there is enough proof that God exists.
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On April 29 2011 01:26 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 01:25 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 29 2011 01:20 scouting overlord wrote:On April 29 2011 01:19 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 29 2011 01:15 scouting overlord wrote:On April 29 2011 01:12 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 29 2011 01:09 scouting overlord wrote:
That's not what I am discussing.
Get out of a discussion thread about abortion then? You have nothing to add except laughable logic 101 burns and gripes about me, why even post? You can PM me if you want instead. You're making nothing but angry and substanceless posts in this thread. Pointing that out is relevant to this thread, as refraining from such posting behavior allows the rest of teamliquid to discuss the topic in a mutually helpful way. I'm defending the viewpoint that a woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy beyond the 20th week of pregnancy, and that there is no basis, especially one grounded in an appeal to humanity, to restrict abortions to the 20th week. I'm sure this is 'substanceless' in whatever epic halls of debate you usually inhabit, but it's very relevent to the topic at hand. You are more than welcome to elaborate that opinion, provide rationale, defend your position, etc. etc.. That would be excellent in the context of this thread. What I think you should refrain from doing in service of that opinion is a) claim that the fact that a woman opines it gives it some special status of validity and b) denigrate the intelligences of people who disagree with it. That's nice sweety, but I don't care about your feelings or opinion on what constitutes 'substance' and 'contribution', neither do the vast majority of people. Keep it to yourself next time, this is a discussion thread about abortion, and you appear to be lost as you're not discussing anything related to this topic. By the way, thanks for telling me what I can and can't do I wouldn't have any idea without a big strong man to guide me. Once again you're simply being insulting. Insulting is being told that abortion is murder, and being expected to coddle the stupid in the name of fairness or contribution. I'm sorry this is distressing to you.
It's not distressing to me. It doesn't really get to me. I have an almost infinite patience for coddling the stupid in the name of fairness, of facilitating contributions to a thread, and common decency. You'll notice that I almost never lapse into name calling and blanket assertions of my own monopoly on the insights of "science and humanity."
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On April 29 2011 01:06 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 00:51 -Archangel- wrote:On April 29 2011 00:49 PolSC2 wrote:On April 29 2011 00:45 -Archangel- wrote:On April 29 2011 00:26 PolSC2 wrote:On April 29 2011 00:23 -Archangel- wrote:On April 29 2011 00:01 nihlon wrote:On April 28 2011 23:51 -Archangel- wrote:On April 28 2011 21:56 Ghostcom wrote:On April 28 2011 21:03 -Archangel- wrote:
[quote]
As a father I felt the need to say this because it is the truth. Even in europe the 3 month limit of being able to preform an abortion is probably too high, but 20 weeks that, I will say it again, is murder. I know how my little girl looked at 20 weeks and nobody can tell me she is not a person or alive. No law can tell me that. Laws are artificial constructions of men, this is nature that is above any human law. It's not the truth - it's your perception which isn't based on anything objective, but "merely" your feelings as a dad. The only reason WHY you even knew how your daughter looked at week 20 in the first place was because you were getting an ultrasound to test wheter or not there were any developmental defects which would make life impossible meaning your wife would've had to abort or give birth to a dead baby. You are being a total hypocrit so take your "I'm telling the truth" BS and shut up or bring some valid arguments. I know I'm VERY blunt, but you do not hold any moral highground in this, stop trying to make it seem like that. And congratulations with your daughter, kids can really be a blessing, but don't try and make your subjective feelings a universal standard. Exactly where the limit should be placed is very hard to decide and tbh I don't think there is any 100% correct answer. I DO however support the option of being able to abort a child with trisomy 21 and thus I also support abortion @ week 16-20 as that is the earliest you can with certainty say wheter or not the mutation is present without an unacceptable risk to the mother or fetus. I am sorry, but you are also just stating your opinion and it is no more true then mine. Science does not 100% know when the baby is aware or if there is something called a soul (a religious version or otherwise). But what is without doubt is that it is alive and a seperate being that depends on the mother to grow and survive at that point. It does not give the mother right to kill it as long as it is going to end up healthy and able to lead a normal life. If the mother/father do not want it, the government can take care of it. Instead of wasting money on abortions and developing technology and drugs for that, that money can be spent into government programs that will let abandoned children find new homes as painless as possible or be able to grow up and have similar chance to be a useful part of society. You last part is a bit weird. You honestly think the cost of an abortion is greater to our society than the cost of raising an orphant/adoptie? Of course it is not, but anything helps. And there is a lot of people that want to adopt children because they cannot have their own. A good program for that will make abortions not needed unless there is a medical reason behind it. It also doesn't help that adopting a child is an extremely long and difficult process(I understand why). Now imagine all those smart people fighting to keep abortion legal (and all those on the other side fighting against them) using this energy and brain power to make this system better and faster :D That would be a dream come true. My Wife and I really want to adopt our second child, because there are so many children in need of a loving family. My wife and me were talking if we could not have a child normally to adopt one instead of hunting for expensive medical procedures that let her become pregnant (and fail most of the time). Wait what?! Have you utilized fertilitytreatment or IVF and you are against abortion?! I'm going to stop all discussion right here, because obviously consistency isn't your strong suite (note, I'm not against IVF or the likes, I'm against inconsitency.) Congratulations on your daughter.
No, we had a child naturally
But we were talking about all the options and in this country it is either free really ineffective system of government sponsored fertility treatment or really expensive private version (something like 4 months pay for one treatment).
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On April 29 2011 01:10 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 01:07 Piste wrote:On April 28 2011 11:16 Wegandi wrote:On April 28 2011 11:09 gogogadgetflow wrote:
You can't be banned for arguing for/against abortion as long as you keep it civil and substantive. No need to paint tl negatively.
For now the solution for Hoosiers is simple. Leave the state if you need an abortion. On one hand 20 weeks is plenty of time for an abortion, so the law is at least moderate in that respect. Ethically, however, I support the right of a woman to expel the fetus at any stage of pregnancy; because the baby lives inside the woman its right to life is forfeit. Whether or not it can feel pain is a non-factor (legally - I myself would consider such a factor but I cannot force someone else to). No one has the right to kill another individual unless your life is in danger. Yes, you have the right to evict, but not kill, which means the woman can have (induce) early pregnancies and put the child up for adoption. You do not have a right to kill a trespasser on your property who is not a danger to you, your family, or your property. I really do not like to get into this debate, because both sides are pretty well set in their views. My personal view is pretty moderate -- a woman has a right to evict, but not kill. your not an individual when you are part of someone elses body and live off what she eats. IMO give fetus' the right to vote, also the God given right to bear arms. They are individuals just like a 3 year old child, or you, or me.
Of course, 3 year old children everywhere have a right to vote or carry arms 
If you plan to write anything, at least make it worth of reading.
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On April 28 2011 23:27 gimpy wrote:
If there is no God, then we Christians are to be pitied more than anyone and by all means enjoy life and put to death anyone you don't consider a "person". But if God is real, and if he tells the truth when he says he knew us from conception, then may He have mercy on us for not doing everything we can to prevent the murder of his innocent children.
I assume you are referencing Jer 1:5
""Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." (NIV)
This doesn't say God knew you from conception, it actually says God knew you *before* conception. One way to interpret thus is that God knows everything, including the future, and therefore knows people even before they have been conceived. Another is that the soul existed before conception. On the latter, however, the question then is at what point is the soul put into the body? (or if it has been there all along; some Catholics do consider contraception to be the same as abortion) Ecc 11 in fact states that we can not know these things; it is a mystery.
imo the biblically supported interpretation is that life begins at some unknown time after conception but before birth. The body cannot receive the soul before it is fully formed. From this perspective, I don't think a stance like "safe, legal, and never" contradicts that, because it strives to reduce abortions even though it does not send women to prison or give them a death sentence for having one. Likewise, allowing abortions up until a certain point in development (of course, any time if the woman's life is in danger) is our closest estimate of determining when the fetus should be considered a person.
I also think Christians should consider that life is as precious after birth as it is the day before birth. A truly life-affirming society would have universal healthcare, ban capital punishment, see war as a last resort, and care for the poor. (whether to achieve these privately or through government is another matter, but I like to see people strive for consistency here. It would be tragic and senseless from either side's perspective for a mother to be forced to go through pregnancy, only to die of an infection months later that could have been prevented if her family had better access to health care.)
I'm not presuming to know your stance on these other issues. Nor do I particularly care about how you interpret scriptures (our nation's laws are secular anyways). These are just things to consider.
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On April 29 2011 01:14 ShovZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 01:01 scouting overlord wrote:On April 29 2011 00:56 VIB wrote:On April 29 2011 00:43 Arkless wrote:On April 29 2011 00:09 scouting overlord wrote:On April 29 2011 00:08 eLiE wrote:On April 29 2011 00:03 scouting overlord wrote:On April 28 2011 23:56 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 28 2011 18:21 scouting overlord wrote:
I'm pointing out that you're all more than likely male with no idea what it's like to bear or raise a child, especially one which has been accidentally or unwillingly conceived or has been diagnosed with a serious illness inutero. A female should be the one allowed to make a decision On April 28 2011 18:32 scouting overlord wrote:
Cry me a river macho man, it's her child in her body and you have no leg to stand on if you've broken up with her in pregnancy, you know the most important time to care for your wife? On April 28 2011 18:37 scouting overlord wrote:Thanks for just being outright misogynist for people to see . Helps illustrate what kind of man cares more for an unconscious cellular mass than a fully developed human being. On April 28 2011 18:53 scouting overlord wrote:Maybe next life you can experience how great it is to be female in this world, with Brave Men FIGHTING FOR THE UNBORN RIGHTS, but for now you'll just have to wait. On April 28 2011 19:07 scouting overlord wrote:You are crazy, just so you know. None of your points are intelligent or relevant to real life. "Anti-life" isn't a position people take. Please return to whatever conservative white male-dominated echo chamber you came from. On April 28 2011 19:10 scouting overlord wrote:
You have never experienced pregnancy. You never will experience pregnancy. No male will, and it's a greater burden on the women, both mentally and physically, than whatever "statistics" and "labor" the court puts on you. It will scar her body and mind for life, not just for when the court dictates your "labor time" On April 28 2011 19:12 scouting overlord wrote:
I'll let this slide as you defend the women's right to abortion at least. But trust me on this, nothing you ever experience is even close to childbirth. It isn't 'only' or 'just' 9 months from the women's point of view, and you should respect that. No one should be forced to go through childbirth unwillingly. On April 28 2011 19:13 scouting overlord wrote:
It's based around pregnancy being a burden wholly put on the woman and her body you fucking mong. On April 28 2011 19:27 scouting overlord wrote:A man does not get pregnant . It's not even close to 50/50. You have no idea what pregnancy does to a person's body and mind. Women don't leave men to spite them out of child support. Taking your child from the biological father isn't something women just do to 'run off with another man'. I suppose I could go on with the quotes, but I think these are sufficient to my point. Throwing your gender around for the purpose of squelching debate is a disingenuous (not to mention tedious) way to argue. It’s also somewhat questionable that your position revolves around men being unable to understand a female perspective, yet you seem to have an exhaustive knowledge of what’s going on in the misogynistic and naïve minds of the males with whom you’re speaking. Personally, I would love to hear your opinion on abortion if it involves something other than gender stereotypes, angry dismissals of opposing viewpoints, and the old you-can’t-possibly-understand-what-it’s-like- for me! assertion that you’re the only individual in the discussion with a leg to stand on. You think pregnancy and abortion is a gender-neutral issue? Do you think pregnancy and abortion is as hard on the male as the female, and that the male's judgement is greater or equal to a female's on this issue? You are a very special person, like many proud Americans. Thanks for picking out all of the gender related arguments from the female perspective by the way, while ignoring the many from the male side lol, there's no point, man. It's just something we have to ignore at this time. No point for a privileged first world male to have an opinion on, I agree -- they'll likely never encounter the grief of an unwanted child in their lifetime . Edit: Especially one that they can't afford to care for First I must ask, are you female? Because you seem to forget that creating a child takes two people, man AND woman. What if the woman just decided to get the baby aborted but the man totally wanted it. Was prepared for it, and everything else. WTF is that? I understand the it's a womans body argument, but to think someones lover got his baby aborted doesnt mentally affect the male. Then you are just plain stupid. You throw out misogynist like 50x but I think a more apt description for you is radical feminist. Because you clearly have no idea, have never had a child. Nor had a child aborted. Why does it matter if it mentally affects the man? A lot of illogical stupid thing can mentally affect the men. At the end of the today you can just go cum on someone else. But she will still go through all of the trouble of carrying a baby inside her for 9 months regardless of what you do. The man's feelings are just as important as a woman's on everything of course, even biogical events that a man cannot even begin to imagine the experience of. I'm some crazy radical feminist for suggesting that the woman's say over her own body is more important than her lover's. Fact of the matter is, the decision to abort is contructed as a medical one, taken by doctors in their patients' best interests, it is unsurprising that the pregnant woman's sexual partner has no right to obstruct medical discretion and prevent her from obtaining an abortion. Plus, it would be very difficult for the law to impose a pregnany on a woman who wants to get an abortion...
It would not if they actually helped any woman in this situation with money and personal medical/psychological help. Yes, it would cost money, but it would save a life. Lots of other things in out society cost a lot of money so they could save lives.
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I'm glad to see that they're cracking down on late-term abortions.
Description of a 18-22 week fetus: "She may have some head hair and eyebrows by now. She can make facial expressions, frowning and grimacing expressively. Her ears are well developed and she can hear your voice and your heartbeat."
I'm an avid supporter of abortions but when the baby has reached a certain point of maturity you aren't killing a fetus. You're killing a baby. No one has the right to kill a baby, regardless of whether it's in you or not.
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EPT
