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A Simple Math Problem? - Page 30

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Wolf
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)3290 Posts
April 07 2011 23:25 GMT
#581
This has been extremely interesting.
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/proxywolf
TL+ Member
garbanzo
Profile Joined October 2009
United States4046 Posts
April 07 2011 23:25 GMT
#582
On April 08 2011 08:24 N3rV[Green] wrote:
1/2x is simply "one half x" when said outloud. This translates to (1/2)*x, but in this case the parentheses are redundant since the equation is evaluated from left to right.

This is not up for debate.

Or you could read it as "1 over 2 x".
Even during difficult times, when I sat down to play the game, there were times where it felt like god has descended down and played [for me].
Tschis
Profile Joined November 2010
Brazil1511 Posts
April 07 2011 23:25 GMT
#583
So funny how majority of people count as 288, then most are studying, and then most see it as 1/(2*x), which is basically the contrary

//tx
"A coward is not someone that runs from a battle knowing he will lose. A coward is someone who challenges a weak knowing he will win."
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 23:48:55
April 07 2011 23:26 GMT
#584
On April 08 2011 08:00 Ecrilon wrote:
2x has a different order than 2*x. 2x is treated as a single unit in all scientific disciplines. The answer is 2. If the equation were 48/2*(9+3) the answer would be 288.
No. Question 1 and 2 are not the same.
On April 08 2011 08:00 Veritask wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 07:57 Steel wrote:
Not sure what the point of the second question. Usually if it's on the same line in a real math problem is (1/2)x and if it's 1/(2x) it'll be on a seperate line.
1 1
-- vs -- x or 1/2x
2x 2
Of course I too want to group it as 1/(2x) but in really computer symbol " / " is inadequately designed for dividing.

Or for god's sake, just write 0.5x

one would be 0.5x but you could just as well say x/2.
What you cannot do however, is call 1/(2x) 0.5x, it must remain as 1/(2x). And while it might be common to spread things out on two lines, it won't happen all the time, such as with computer related situations, such as programming, or fast communication — It's important to set/understand the rules regarding the usage of the slash as a divider, whether it should be treated as a standard division mark, or as a grouped division, where the elements on each side are grouped as dividend and divisor.
On April 08 2011 08:25 Tschis wrote:
So funny how majority of people count as 288, then most are studying, and then most see it as 1/(2*x), which is basically the contrary

Yeah it is a little bit interesting to me, but it's not too interesting, because I have an explanation as to why this is the case.

The symbols used for division are different in each question. In the first question it uses the obelus division symbol ÷, the second it uses the slash symbol / . While to a computer it will treat the slash as an ordinary division (and very likely not recognize the obelus symbol), people might generally consider the slash to be a computerized (or compact) way of doing a vertical/grouped division, which has implied parenthesis. This would not be the case however, for people who are discussing or using computer programming though.

While it is proper to add parenthesis around it when on one line to be clear, if it's on informal grounds and the rules are defined between parties, I'd say it's fine to be using it as a grouped divider without parenthesis.
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
Blisse
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 23:29:10
April 07 2011 23:27 GMT
#585
On April 08 2011 08:07 garbanzo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 08:03 Blisse wrote:
Oh shit. Division isn't commutative. Good game guys. There is no correct answer in this case. Stop following BEDMAS. It was made up by grade school teachers to help you understand the order of operations. It doesn't work in extreme cases because there is no correct way to interpret the equation.

Essentially, 2/3*4 is not the same as (2)(1/3)(4) which it isn't the same as (2/3)(4) which isn't the same as (2)/(3*4). You can't simply convert division into fractional form because the math symbols aren't clear enough. In written form, you interpret the question based on what the symbols show. On one text line, that's impossible to convey without parenthesis.

The best example would be 2/3/4. If you did it (2/3)/4, I haven't specified which / is larger. The computer reads it to the best of its ability. It is limited by computer notation. There is no difference between / and a larger / for a computer, which is why it simply reads it front to end after the regular operations.

The bigger question is then:

Do we treat this as a written, typed or oral question?

2/3*4 = (2)(1/3)(4) = (2/3)(4) != 2/(3*4)
Three of those are exactly the same. The way you wrote it is completely unambiguous. The ambiguity in the original statement is in the omission of a multiplication symbol. Having back to back parentheses like that, e.g. (2)(3), counts as a multiplication symbol.


Sorry, I didn't mean the products weren't the same. I meant the writing isn't the same.

3^(-1) is not the same as writing (1/3), for example. They're equivalents values, but it's like how when you write 3^(-1)4 do you mean 3^(-4) or 4[3^(-1)]. You really need the parenthesis around everything if you don't ever want to misinterpreted. Again, we're doing this online, which is only making it worse.

And what happened to using { [ ( D:
There is no one like you in the universe.
Astronaut
Profile Joined September 2010
United States52 Posts
April 07 2011 23:27 GMT
#586
The solution is to make your equation unambiguous by adding more symbols. I'm a math major and still assumed that the question was 48 / [2(9+3)]. Also math is nearly impossible to display correctly using a single line of text (which also makes calculators irritating.)
Zeke50100
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2220 Posts
April 07 2011 23:27 GMT
#587
On April 08 2011 08:25 garbanzo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 08:24 N3rV[Green] wrote:
1/2x is simply "one half x" when said outloud. This translates to (1/2)*x, but in this case the parentheses are redundant since the equation is evaluated from left to right.

This is not up for debate.

Or you could read it as "1 over 2 x".


Which means the X is multiplied by 1/2.

I think we should all make an effort to say "the quantity" whenever we mean to group multiple things as a single term >.>
gyth
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
657 Posts
April 07 2011 23:27 GMT
#588
The main thing to look out for is that you don't make any mistakes concerning the 'associativity' of any multiplication/division : a*b/c = a/c*b

If I saw a/c*b I would assume a/(c*b) was meant and that any "correct" behavior was accidental not intentional.

Particularly with integer math (a*b/c) != (a/c*b).
My favorite occurrence of this happens in Legend of Mana. Tempering resistances should multiply by 3 then divide by 4, but since they divide by 4 then multiply by 3 the player gets better results (lower resists).
The plural of anecdote is not data.
MajorityofOne
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada2506 Posts
April 07 2011 23:28 GMT
#589
On April 08 2011 08:25 Tschis wrote:
So funny how majority of people count as 288, then most are studying, and then most see it as 1/(2*x), which is basically the contrary

//tx


This is whats confusing me O.O But I think I get it now.

The answer is to lose your whole f**king base.
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
April 07 2011 23:29 GMT
#590
On April 08 2011 08:27 Zeke50100 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 08:25 garbanzo wrote:
On April 08 2011 08:24 N3rV[Green] wrote:
1/2x is simply "one half x" when said outloud. This translates to (1/2)*x, but in this case the parentheses are redundant since the equation is evaluated from left to right.

This is not up for debate.

Or you could read it as "1 over 2 x".


Which means the X is multiplied by 1/2.

I think we should all make an effort to say "the quantity" whenever we mean to group multiple things as a single term >.>


if someone tells me "1 over 2 x" they are telling me 1/(2x) not x/2, heh. if they wanted to tell me x/2, they'd say "1 over 2 times x"
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
garbanzo
Profile Joined October 2009
United States4046 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 23:31:26
April 07 2011 23:29 GMT
#591
On April 08 2011 08:27 Zeke50100 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 08:25 garbanzo wrote:
On April 08 2011 08:24 N3rV[Green] wrote:
1/2x is simply "one half x" when said outloud. This translates to (1/2)*x, but in this case the parentheses are redundant since the equation is evaluated from left to right.

This is not up for debate.

Or you could read it as "1 over 2 x".


Which means the X is multiplied by 1/2.

I think we should all make an effort to say "the quantity" whenever we mean to group multiple things as a single term >.>

Yes, I agree with using "the quantity" more often, but if someone (who I know knows math) were to say to me "1 over 2 x" I would think that means 1/(2x) because if he meant "one half x" then he would have said "x over 2".

Edit: Dangling participle. Somewhat ironic given the discussion.
Even during difficult times, when I sat down to play the game, there were times where it felt like god has descended down and played [for me].
MaxField
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2386 Posts
April 07 2011 23:30 GMT
#592
On April 08 2011 05:40 Disciple7 wrote:
PEMDAS.
First: (9+3)=12
This gives you (48) / (2) * (12)
Order of operations says multiplication and division are done in the same step, therefore if you have both remaining, you go in the order that they show up.
So (48) / (2) is first. 24.
(24) * (12) is 288.
Disappointed to see so many twos.

P.S. Yes I know in PEMDAS multiplication comes first, but PEMDAS should really be PE(MD)(AS), since multiplication and division, along with addition and subtraction, are done in the same step.

Edit: Had multiple frowny faces due to parentheses =(

Your PEMDAS is confusing, if you follow it you have to do the Parentheses first, which is actually (MD) and (AS). haha
"Zerg, so bad it loses to hydras" IdrA.
Zeke50100
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2220 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 23:32:22
April 07 2011 23:31 GMT
#593
On April 08 2011 08:29 garbanzo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 08:27 Zeke50100 wrote:
On April 08 2011 08:25 garbanzo wrote:
On April 08 2011 08:24 N3rV[Green] wrote:
1/2x is simply "one half x" when said outloud. This translates to (1/2)*x, but in this case the parentheses are redundant since the equation is evaluated from left to right.

This is not up for debate.

Or you could read it as "1 over 2 x".


Which means the X is multiplied by 1/2.

I think we should all make an effort to say "the quantity" whenever we mean to group multiple things as a single term >.>

Yes, I agree with that, but if someone (who I know knows math) were to say to me "1 over 2 x" I would think that means 1/(2x) because if he meant "one half x" then he would have said "x over 2".


The way he wrote it, there was actually a space in between the 2 and the x, which is why I took it to be that way :D

Of course, when hearing it, it's impossible to tell what they really mean, because people mix the two far to often. Which, again, is why I advocate the use of "the quantity" to signify groupings.

EDIT: Of course, there are times when you would read "one half x" without changing it to just "x over two", which is what I'm getting at.
garbanzo
Profile Joined October 2009
United States4046 Posts
April 07 2011 23:32 GMT
#594
On April 08 2011 08:31 Zeke50100 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 08:29 garbanzo wrote:
On April 08 2011 08:27 Zeke50100 wrote:
On April 08 2011 08:25 garbanzo wrote:
On April 08 2011 08:24 N3rV[Green] wrote:
1/2x is simply "one half x" when said outloud. This translates to (1/2)*x, but in this case the parentheses are redundant since the equation is evaluated from left to right.

This is not up for debate.

Or you could read it as "1 over 2 x".


Which means the X is multiplied by 1/2.

I think we should all make an effort to say "the quantity" whenever we mean to group multiple things as a single term >.>

Yes, I agree with that, but if someone (who I know knows math) were to say to me "1 over 2 x" I would think that means 1/(2x) because if he meant "one half x" then he would have said "x over 2".


The way he wrote it, there was actually a space in between the 2 and the x, which is why I took it to be that way :D

Of course, when hearing it, it's impossible to tell what they really mean, because people mix the two far to often. Which, again, is why I advocate the use of "the quantity" to signify groupings.

The space wasn't to signify a pause, it was to signify a different "word" in the sentence.

I also agree that if someone were to say "1 over 2 [pause] x" then that would be "one half x".
Even during difficult times, when I sat down to play the game, there were times where it felt like god has descended down and played [for me].
VALERO
Profile Joined March 2011
United States7 Posts
April 07 2011 23:34 GMT
#595
are people voting the wrong answers as a joke? there's no way that many people could get 5th grade math wrong
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 23:37:08
April 07 2011 23:34 GMT
#596
I think this is a dumb question, because no one actually writing mathematical expressions would ever write something like that...

also lol, I'll admit I said 2. But I also said (1/2) x LOLOLOL

also only 1/3 of MIT math majors I just polled said 288 :O

clearly MIT math majors don't know 5th grade math :O

... but seriously, who would ever write such an expression... always use fraction bar.
Writer
garbanzo
Profile Joined October 2009
United States4046 Posts
April 07 2011 23:35 GMT
#597
On April 08 2011 08:34 VALERO wrote:
are people voting the wrong answers as a joke? there's no way that many people could get 5th grade math wrong

If it's so unbelievable then maybe you should read the thread to see why people are getting it wrong?
Even during difficult times, when I sat down to play the game, there were times where it felt like god has descended down and played [for me].
space_yes
Profile Joined April 2010
United States548 Posts
April 07 2011 23:35 GMT
#598
Interesting so many people read it as 1/(2x) and amusing that so many people try to justify their wrongness

1/2 is a scalar and x is a variable. If you do the order of operations left to right you'll see the expression is actually .5x...
Sadir
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
Vatican City State1176 Posts
April 07 2011 23:35 GMT
#599
288 is really obvious, I didn't even really understand how you could come to 2, until I saw what they did
on the 1/2x stuff, I mean technically it's 0.5x (so I went for this), but if I read this in a paper, I will double check what the author means and if he means 0.5x then I tell him that his way of writing it is shitty
Alzadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada5009 Posts
April 07 2011 23:35 GMT
#600
This is like asking what sine(pi/2) is. Anyone who has studied math will tell you 1 of course, but someone who doesn't work with sine regularly might check their calculator and tell you that the answer is ~0.03.

They would both be correct, but in different ways.
I am the Town Medic.
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