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On April 07 2011 00:43 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:19 PrincessLeila wrote:On April 06 2011 19:22 Monsen wrote:On April 06 2011 16:07 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 06 2011 15:13 Ropid wrote:On April 06 2011 14:49 skypig wrote:
I don't see what the big deal is here - a girl that dresses provocatively is displaying herself as a sex object, whether she "intends" to or not. Most normal guys get a physiological reaction when they see a girl like that...so yes, slutty outfits increase the chance that guys will want to mess with a given girl, or at least think dirty thoughts about her.
And for all the people saying "RAPE IS WRONG, BLAH BLAH" - honestly, yes, rape is wrong, but that doesn't mean you should condone slutty dressing from girls...that's called a straw man argument. Girls should understand that they're marketing themselves as sex objects when they dress like that; at the same time, guys should refrain from raping sluttily-dressed girls. Both parties have to watch themselves.
Although I really think that lotsa girls dress like sluts without understanding what it does to the guys that look at them...it's a sad load of female ignorance that we can thank the media for, I guess. Some girls get it, but some don't because they're just copying what they've been taught to do. Dressing sluttily should send you the signal that they may want to have a fun time with an enjoyable one-night stand with you, not that they want to be raped. You're right that dressing in revealing clothes =/= "I want to be raped" in most instances. I don't know that you're right about dressing in revealing clothes = "I want to have a one-night stand." I think that's an interpretive leap, but you're welcome to make it if you'd like. However, in any case, the motives of the girl for dressing how she dresses is irrelevant. It does not matter what "signal" she thinks her outfit is sending. It does not matter a bit. What matters, in relation to this thread, is whether or not dressing in revealing clothes is a risk factor for being raped. In other words, what matters is how potential rapists interpret those signals. I happen to think that outfit is not a significant risk factor for rape cases. But that doesn't mean that I agree, in the abstract, with the notion that advising women to avoid risk factors for rape equates to blaming rape-victims and/or excusing rapists, which seems to be a common refrain in this dialogue. Take something that actually is a risk factor for rape: alcohol. Advising a young woman to avoid heavy drinking (and likewise avoid heavy drink ers) in a potentially compromising situation is actually good advice (If I had a daughter, I would tattoo that little directive on the back of her hand). But the rhetoric of many of the pro-slutwalkers in this thread would string me up: "How dare you say that a woman who drinks wants to get raped!" "Women should have the right to get as drunk as they want and not be sexually assaulted!" As to the first assertion, I'm not saying that. As to the second, no shit. And that is why, in principle, I can't condone the slutwalk. Perhaps the policeman is a craven misogynist. I don't know. But perhaps he's just a run-of-the-mill, not-too-bright cop who has seen more than his share of tragic sexual assaults and wants to offer some piece of advice, any piece of advice that might help obviate future ones. Instead of entertaining this second possibility, though, people are just jumping on the chance to publicly decry a widely disapproved statement (for which there are, admittedly, wonderful compensations in the form of emotional satisfaction and group-inspired reassurance). I just can't get behind that. People can wage some campaign of awareness where we're going to educate the public into rooting out and eradicating rape (which has been a fact of human existence since prehistory). Or they can make sure that their female loved ones don't needlessly participate in behavior that might endanger them. I know which route I prefer. Excellent post. The people misreading the whole discussion as an argument about whether rape is wrong or not are really getting on my nerves. I just wish people that follow that mindset are all raped right know. It is SO EASY to say, "that's life !". You are all proud being "aware of risks", and you ignore that a lot could be done to reduce rapes. You basically are saying "there's no rape problem, people just have to be carefull". To these people, fuck you all, your are the shame of humanity, and why the world still is so fucked up. I think i deserve a ban, but sorry, i just had to tell this. At least i will stop posting, i feel i am wasting my time fighting medieval thinking. Ok, if you were the president or whatever, how would YOU plan to reduce crimes in general? Not just rapes, because rapes are just one of many horrible crimes. Be realistic here.
Why are you talking about me being the president ? I don't know what the president should do.
I know what PEOPLE should do : stop talking about rape as it was the problem of the victim that wasn't cautious enough. That's one of the things that helps rapists to get away with it.
These people give me nausea.
Edit : maybe the president could try to speak about it, but it is the mentalities that have to change.
Edit2 : Is it unrealistic to hope that one day, not 90% of rapists get away with it ?
Yeah, with people as archaic as many posters in this thread, we're not there yet !
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On April 07 2011 01:02 PrincessLeila wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:43 buhhy wrote:On April 07 2011 00:19 PrincessLeila wrote:On April 06 2011 19:22 Monsen wrote:On April 06 2011 16:07 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 06 2011 15:13 Ropid wrote:On April 06 2011 14:49 skypig wrote:
I don't see what the big deal is here - a girl that dresses provocatively is displaying herself as a sex object, whether she "intends" to or not. Most normal guys get a physiological reaction when they see a girl like that...so yes, slutty outfits increase the chance that guys will want to mess with a given girl, or at least think dirty thoughts about her.
And for all the people saying "RAPE IS WRONG, BLAH BLAH" - honestly, yes, rape is wrong, but that doesn't mean you should condone slutty dressing from girls...that's called a straw man argument. Girls should understand that they're marketing themselves as sex objects when they dress like that; at the same time, guys should refrain from raping sluttily-dressed girls. Both parties have to watch themselves.
Although I really think that lotsa girls dress like sluts without understanding what it does to the guys that look at them...it's a sad load of female ignorance that we can thank the media for, I guess. Some girls get it, but some don't because they're just copying what they've been taught to do. Dressing sluttily should send you the signal that they may want to have a fun time with an enjoyable one-night stand with you, not that they want to be raped. You're right that dressing in revealing clothes =/= "I want to be raped" in most instances. I don't know that you're right about dressing in revealing clothes = "I want to have a one-night stand." I think that's an interpretive leap, but you're welcome to make it if you'd like. However, in any case, the motives of the girl for dressing how she dresses is irrelevant. It does not matter what "signal" she thinks her outfit is sending. It does not matter a bit. What matters, in relation to this thread, is whether or not dressing in revealing clothes is a risk factor for being raped. In other words, what matters is how potential rapists interpret those signals. I happen to think that outfit is not a significant risk factor for rape cases. But that doesn't mean that I agree, in the abstract, with the notion that advising women to avoid risk factors for rape equates to blaming rape-victims and/or excusing rapists, which seems to be a common refrain in this dialogue. Take something that actually is a risk factor for rape: alcohol. Advising a young woman to avoid heavy drinking (and likewise avoid heavy drink ers) in a potentially compromising situation is actually good advice (If I had a daughter, I would tattoo that little directive on the back of her hand). But the rhetoric of many of the pro-slutwalkers in this thread would string me up: "How dare you say that a woman who drinks wants to get raped!" "Women should have the right to get as drunk as they want and not be sexually assaulted!" As to the first assertion, I'm not saying that. As to the second, no shit. And that is why, in principle, I can't condone the slutwalk. Perhaps the policeman is a craven misogynist. I don't know. But perhaps he's just a run-of-the-mill, not-too-bright cop who has seen more than his share of tragic sexual assaults and wants to offer some piece of advice, any piece of advice that might help obviate future ones. Instead of entertaining this second possibility, though, people are just jumping on the chance to publicly decry a widely disapproved statement (for which there are, admittedly, wonderful compensations in the form of emotional satisfaction and group-inspired reassurance). I just can't get behind that. People can wage some campaign of awareness where we're going to educate the public into rooting out and eradicating rape (which has been a fact of human existence since prehistory). Or they can make sure that their female loved ones don't needlessly participate in behavior that might endanger them. I know which route I prefer. Excellent post. The people misreading the whole discussion as an argument about whether rape is wrong or not are really getting on my nerves. I just wish people that follow that mindset are all raped right know. It is SO EASY to say, "that's life !". You are all proud being "aware of risks", and you ignore that a lot could be done to reduce rapes. You basically are saying "there's no rape problem, people just have to be carefull". To these people, fuck you all, your are the shame of humanity, and why the world still is so fucked up. I think i deserve a ban, but sorry, i just had to tell this. At least i will stop posting, i feel i am wasting my time fighting medieval thinking. Ok, if you were the president or whatever, how would YOU plan to reduce crimes in general? Not just rapes, because rapes are just one of many horrible crimes. Be realistic here. Why are you talking about me being the president ? I don't know what the president should do. I know what PEOPLE should do : stop talking about rape as it was the problem of the victim that wasn't cautious enough. That's one of the things that helps rapists to get away with it. These people give me nausea. Edit : maybe the president could try to speak about it, but it is the mentalities that have to change.
If you're talking about the police officer, he was giving advice. Managing risk is always possible, though not always feasible.
If you're talking about court cases, remember there are tons of false rape charges. Innocent before proven guilty. Most cases aren't cut and dry either.
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On April 07 2011 01:02 PrincessLeila wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:43 buhhy wrote:On April 07 2011 00:19 PrincessLeila wrote:On April 06 2011 19:22 Monsen wrote:On April 06 2011 16:07 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 06 2011 15:13 Ropid wrote:On April 06 2011 14:49 skypig wrote:
I don't see what the big deal is here - a girl that dresses provocatively is displaying herself as a sex object, whether she "intends" to or not. Most normal guys get a physiological reaction when they see a girl like that...so yes, slutty outfits increase the chance that guys will want to mess with a given girl, or at least think dirty thoughts about her.
And for all the people saying "RAPE IS WRONG, BLAH BLAH" - honestly, yes, rape is wrong, but that doesn't mean you should condone slutty dressing from girls...that's called a straw man argument. Girls should understand that they're marketing themselves as sex objects when they dress like that; at the same time, guys should refrain from raping sluttily-dressed girls. Both parties have to watch themselves.
Although I really think that lotsa girls dress like sluts without understanding what it does to the guys that look at them...it's a sad load of female ignorance that we can thank the media for, I guess. Some girls get it, but some don't because they're just copying what they've been taught to do. Dressing sluttily should send you the signal that they may want to have a fun time with an enjoyable one-night stand with you, not that they want to be raped. You're right that dressing in revealing clothes =/= "I want to be raped" in most instances. I don't know that you're right about dressing in revealing clothes = "I want to have a one-night stand." I think that's an interpretive leap, but you're welcome to make it if you'd like. However, in any case, the motives of the girl for dressing how she dresses is irrelevant. It does not matter what "signal" she thinks her outfit is sending. It does not matter a bit. What matters, in relation to this thread, is whether or not dressing in revealing clothes is a risk factor for being raped. In other words, what matters is how potential rapists interpret those signals. I happen to think that outfit is not a significant risk factor for rape cases. But that doesn't mean that I agree, in the abstract, with the notion that advising women to avoid risk factors for rape equates to blaming rape-victims and/or excusing rapists, which seems to be a common refrain in this dialogue. Take something that actually is a risk factor for rape: alcohol. Advising a young woman to avoid heavy drinking (and likewise avoid heavy drink ers) in a potentially compromising situation is actually good advice (If I had a daughter, I would tattoo that little directive on the back of her hand). But the rhetoric of many of the pro-slutwalkers in this thread would string me up: "How dare you say that a woman who drinks wants to get raped!" "Women should have the right to get as drunk as they want and not be sexually assaulted!" As to the first assertion, I'm not saying that. As to the second, no shit. And that is why, in principle, I can't condone the slutwalk. Perhaps the policeman is a craven misogynist. I don't know. But perhaps he's just a run-of-the-mill, not-too-bright cop who has seen more than his share of tragic sexual assaults and wants to offer some piece of advice, any piece of advice that might help obviate future ones. Instead of entertaining this second possibility, though, people are just jumping on the chance to publicly decry a widely disapproved statement (for which there are, admittedly, wonderful compensations in the form of emotional satisfaction and group-inspired reassurance). I just can't get behind that. People can wage some campaign of awareness where we're going to educate the public into rooting out and eradicating rape (which has been a fact of human existence since prehistory). Or they can make sure that their female loved ones don't needlessly participate in behavior that might endanger them. I know which route I prefer. Excellent post. The people misreading the whole discussion as an argument about whether rape is wrong or not are really getting on my nerves. I just wish people that follow that mindset are all raped right know. It is SO EASY to say, "that's life !". You are all proud being "aware of risks", and you ignore that a lot could be done to reduce rapes. You basically are saying "there's no rape problem, people just have to be carefull". To these people, fuck you all, your are the shame of humanity, and why the world still is so fucked up. I think i deserve a ban, but sorry, i just had to tell this. At least i will stop posting, i feel i am wasting my time fighting medieval thinking. Ok, if you were the president or whatever, how would YOU plan to reduce crimes in general? Not just rapes, because rapes are just one of many horrible crimes. Be realistic here. Why are you talking about me being the president ? I don't know what the president should do. I know what PEOPLE should do : stop talking about rape as it was the problem of the victim that wasn't cautious enough. That's one of the things that helps rapists to get away with it. These people give me nausea. Edit : maybe the president could try to speak about it, but it is the mentalities that have to change. Edit2 : Is it unrealistic to hope that one day, not 90% of rapists get away with it ? Yeah, with people as archaic as many posters in this thread, we're not there yet !
If you want to make a point, don't fabricate imaginary people and argue against them. People aren't saying that the victim is responsible for being raped because they weren't careful. People are saying that people should be careful. Saying that being raped is a just "punishment" for lack of care would be a completely ridiculous and unwarranted statement, kind of like you going and saying that people presenting rational and valid viewpoints here should be raped, except yours is based entirely on a forum conversation where you're in the wrong, acting immaturely, and grossly misrepresenting people's opinions.
If you want to argue agaisnt the point people are actually making, here it is: Victims are not to blame. Society isn't perfect, so as much as we should focus on preventing and convicting sex offenders, it won't end the problem entirely. If there are things you can do to avoid being targeted by potential rapists, you should keep them in mind, because rapists do exist.
Maybe there are things wrong with how people are presenting and justifying these ideas, but fundamentally, none of your complaints apply to them.
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On April 07 2011 01:07 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:02 PrincessLeila wrote:On April 07 2011 00:43 buhhy wrote:On April 07 2011 00:19 PrincessLeila wrote:On April 06 2011 19:22 Monsen wrote:On April 06 2011 16:07 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 06 2011 15:13 Ropid wrote:On April 06 2011 14:49 skypig wrote:
I don't see what the big deal is here - a girl that dresses provocatively is displaying herself as a sex object, whether she "intends" to or not. Most normal guys get a physiological reaction when they see a girl like that...so yes, slutty outfits increase the chance that guys will want to mess with a given girl, or at least think dirty thoughts about her.
And for all the people saying "RAPE IS WRONG, BLAH BLAH" - honestly, yes, rape is wrong, but that doesn't mean you should condone slutty dressing from girls...that's called a straw man argument. Girls should understand that they're marketing themselves as sex objects when they dress like that; at the same time, guys should refrain from raping sluttily-dressed girls. Both parties have to watch themselves.
Although I really think that lotsa girls dress like sluts without understanding what it does to the guys that look at them...it's a sad load of female ignorance that we can thank the media for, I guess. Some girls get it, but some don't because they're just copying what they've been taught to do. Dressing sluttily should send you the signal that they may want to have a fun time with an enjoyable one-night stand with you, not that they want to be raped. You're right that dressing in revealing clothes =/= "I want to be raped" in most instances. I don't know that you're right about dressing in revealing clothes = "I want to have a one-night stand." I think that's an interpretive leap, but you're welcome to make it if you'd like. However, in any case, the motives of the girl for dressing how she dresses is irrelevant. It does not matter what "signal" she thinks her outfit is sending. It does not matter a bit. What matters, in relation to this thread, is whether or not dressing in revealing clothes is a risk factor for being raped. In other words, what matters is how potential rapists interpret those signals. I happen to think that outfit is not a significant risk factor for rape cases. But that doesn't mean that I agree, in the abstract, with the notion that advising women to avoid risk factors for rape equates to blaming rape-victims and/or excusing rapists, which seems to be a common refrain in this dialogue. Take something that actually is a risk factor for rape: alcohol. Advising a young woman to avoid heavy drinking (and likewise avoid heavy drink ers) in a potentially compromising situation is actually good advice (If I had a daughter, I would tattoo that little directive on the back of her hand). But the rhetoric of many of the pro-slutwalkers in this thread would string me up: "How dare you say that a woman who drinks wants to get raped!" "Women should have the right to get as drunk as they want and not be sexually assaulted!" As to the first assertion, I'm not saying that. As to the second, no shit. And that is why, in principle, I can't condone the slutwalk. Perhaps the policeman is a craven misogynist. I don't know. But perhaps he's just a run-of-the-mill, not-too-bright cop who has seen more than his share of tragic sexual assaults and wants to offer some piece of advice, any piece of advice that might help obviate future ones. Instead of entertaining this second possibility, though, people are just jumping on the chance to publicly decry a widely disapproved statement (for which there are, admittedly, wonderful compensations in the form of emotional satisfaction and group-inspired reassurance). I just can't get behind that. People can wage some campaign of awareness where we're going to educate the public into rooting out and eradicating rape (which has been a fact of human existence since prehistory). Or they can make sure that their female loved ones don't needlessly participate in behavior that might endanger them. I know which route I prefer. Excellent post. The people misreading the whole discussion as an argument about whether rape is wrong or not are really getting on my nerves. I just wish people that follow that mindset are all raped right know. It is SO EASY to say, "that's life !". You are all proud being "aware of risks", and you ignore that a lot could be done to reduce rapes. You basically are saying "there's no rape problem, people just have to be carefull". To these people, fuck you all, your are the shame of humanity, and why the world still is so fucked up. I think i deserve a ban, but sorry, i just had to tell this. At least i will stop posting, i feel i am wasting my time fighting medieval thinking. Ok, if you were the president or whatever, how would YOU plan to reduce crimes in general? Not just rapes, because rapes are just one of many horrible crimes. Be realistic here. Why are you talking about me being the president ? I don't know what the president should do. I know what PEOPLE should do : stop talking about rape as it was the problem of the victim that wasn't cautious enough. That's one of the things that helps rapists to get away with it. These people give me nausea. Edit : maybe the president could try to speak about it, but it is the mentalities that have to change. If you're talking about the police officer, he was giving advice.
He represents the State. The State should promote freedom, not suggest restricting freedoms to lower crime.
Managing risk is always possible, though not always feasible.
Possible but not feasible ? Are you reading yourself ?
If you're talking about court cases, remember there are tons of false rape charges. Innocent before proven guilty. Most cases aren't cut and dry either.
And so what ?
We should stop lawsuits about rape ?
Innocent before proven guilty in murder cases too, and so what ? "Justice is good for some things, but rapes can't be judged ?"
It's incredibly man-centered position : to protect the defendant (mostly men), we should not report rape to avoid false accusation ? Too bad for victims (mostly women).
Ridiculous again.
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if a rapists wants to rape u then he will rape u. how u dress will not prevent that from happening. if he sees u out at night, vulnerable and alone then THAT is what he will take advantage of. the way u dress and sometimes even the way u look will not prevent the risks of that happening even in the slightest.
hell even age is not a factor for a rapist. so saying the way u dress is what will prevent or inspire rape is complete and total bullshit.
what triggers a rapist is the fact that he is a rapist and u are a women. thats it. any other factors are void. how do i know this? because during hurricane katrina rapist were rampant in our city. they didnt care who they raped, they just did it. even 80 year old women were not safe....
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On April 07 2011 01:13 SharkSpider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:02 PrincessLeila wrote:On April 07 2011 00:43 buhhy wrote:On April 07 2011 00:19 PrincessLeila wrote:On April 06 2011 19:22 Monsen wrote:On April 06 2011 16:07 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 06 2011 15:13 Ropid wrote:On April 06 2011 14:49 skypig wrote:
I don't see what the big deal is here - a girl that dresses provocatively is displaying herself as a sex object, whether she "intends" to or not. Most normal guys get a physiological reaction when they see a girl like that...so yes, slutty outfits increase the chance that guys will want to mess with a given girl, or at least think dirty thoughts about her.
And for all the people saying "RAPE IS WRONG, BLAH BLAH" - honestly, yes, rape is wrong, but that doesn't mean you should condone slutty dressing from girls...that's called a straw man argument. Girls should understand that they're marketing themselves as sex objects when they dress like that; at the same time, guys should refrain from raping sluttily-dressed girls. Both parties have to watch themselves.
Although I really think that lotsa girls dress like sluts without understanding what it does to the guys that look at them...it's a sad load of female ignorance that we can thank the media for, I guess. Some girls get it, but some don't because they're just copying what they've been taught to do. Dressing sluttily should send you the signal that they may want to have a fun time with an enjoyable one-night stand with you, not that they want to be raped. You're right that dressing in revealing clothes =/= "I want to be raped" in most instances. I don't know that you're right about dressing in revealing clothes = "I want to have a one-night stand." I think that's an interpretive leap, but you're welcome to make it if you'd like. However, in any case, the motives of the girl for dressing how she dresses is irrelevant. It does not matter what "signal" she thinks her outfit is sending. It does not matter a bit. What matters, in relation to this thread, is whether or not dressing in revealing clothes is a risk factor for being raped. In other words, what matters is how potential rapists interpret those signals. I happen to think that outfit is not a significant risk factor for rape cases. But that doesn't mean that I agree, in the abstract, with the notion that advising women to avoid risk factors for rape equates to blaming rape-victims and/or excusing rapists, which seems to be a common refrain in this dialogue. Take something that actually is a risk factor for rape: alcohol. Advising a young woman to avoid heavy drinking (and likewise avoid heavy drink ers) in a potentially compromising situation is actually good advice (If I had a daughter, I would tattoo that little directive on the back of her hand). But the rhetoric of many of the pro-slutwalkers in this thread would string me up: "How dare you say that a woman who drinks wants to get raped!" "Women should have the right to get as drunk as they want and not be sexually assaulted!" As to the first assertion, I'm not saying that. As to the second, no shit. And that is why, in principle, I can't condone the slutwalk. Perhaps the policeman is a craven misogynist. I don't know. But perhaps he's just a run-of-the-mill, not-too-bright cop who has seen more than his share of tragic sexual assaults and wants to offer some piece of advice, any piece of advice that might help obviate future ones. Instead of entertaining this second possibility, though, people are just jumping on the chance to publicly decry a widely disapproved statement (for which there are, admittedly, wonderful compensations in the form of emotional satisfaction and group-inspired reassurance). I just can't get behind that. People can wage some campaign of awareness where we're going to educate the public into rooting out and eradicating rape (which has been a fact of human existence since prehistory). Or they can make sure that their female loved ones don't needlessly participate in behavior that might endanger them. I know which route I prefer. Excellent post. The people misreading the whole discussion as an argument about whether rape is wrong or not are really getting on my nerves. I just wish people that follow that mindset are all raped right know. It is SO EASY to say, "that's life !". You are all proud being "aware of risks", and you ignore that a lot could be done to reduce rapes. You basically are saying "there's no rape problem, people just have to be carefull". To these people, fuck you all, your are the shame of humanity, and why the world still is so fucked up. I think i deserve a ban, but sorry, i just had to tell this. At least i will stop posting, i feel i am wasting my time fighting medieval thinking. Ok, if you were the president or whatever, how would YOU plan to reduce crimes in general? Not just rapes, because rapes are just one of many horrible crimes. Be realistic here. Why are you talking about me being the president ? I don't know what the president should do. I know what PEOPLE should do : stop talking about rape as it was the problem of the victim that wasn't cautious enough. That's one of the things that helps rapists to get away with it. These people give me nausea. Edit : maybe the president could try to speak about it, but it is the mentalities that have to change. Edit2 : Is it unrealistic to hope that one day, not 90% of rapists get away with it ? Yeah, with people as archaic as many posters in this thread, we're not there yet ! If you want to make a point, don't fabricate imaginary people and argue against them.
If you want to make a point, don't ignore what is said by many posters.
Read this if you think this is an imaginary problem : http://socialistworker.org/2011/03/24/blaming-an-11-year-old-victim
People aren't saying that the victim is responsible for being raped because they weren't careful. People are saying that people should be careful. Saying that being raped is a just "punishment" for lack of care would be a completely ridiculous and unwarranted statement, kind of like you going and saying that people presenting rational and valid viewpoints here should be raped, except yours is based entirely on a forum conversation where you're in the wrong, acting immaturely, and grossly
misrepresenting people's opinions.
Yeah, you can always deny the problem, and argue i am immature.
You don't bring any facts.
If you want to argue agaisnt the point people are actually making, here it is: Victims are not to blame. Society isn't perfect, so as much as we should focus on preventing and convicting sex offenders, it won't end the problem entirely.
Nobody said that we could eradicate the problem. I am tired of hearing "that will always happen". So we should not fight against rapists ??
If there are things you can do to avoid being targeted by potential rapists, you should keep them in mind, because rapists do exist. Maybe there are things wrong with how people are presenting and justifying these ideas, but fundamentally, none of your complaints apply to them.
You clearly haven't read the whole thread.
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Yes, but what if we marginalize women even more by telling them what they can or can't do or suffer the consequences of rape? Maybe that would create sexual equality!
A lot of these nerdy misconceptions can be cleared up with like one google search of "rape facts". For example: "93 % of juvenile sexual assault victims knew their attacker". Treating women (or girls in this case) as a lower class that needs to follow special rules probably contributes to this statistic. If you're telling women they shouldn't do x, you are the problem. Maybe you're not a rapist or future rapist*, but you're encouraging mistreatment of women.
*About 3% of American men – or 1 in 33 – have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime
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On April 07 2011 01:02 PrincessLeila wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:43 buhhy wrote:On April 07 2011 00:19 PrincessLeila wrote:On April 06 2011 19:22 Monsen wrote:On April 06 2011 16:07 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 06 2011 15:13 Ropid wrote:On April 06 2011 14:49 skypig wrote:
I don't see what the big deal is here - a girl that dresses provocatively is displaying herself as a sex object, whether she "intends" to or not. Most normal guys get a physiological reaction when they see a girl like that...so yes, slutty outfits increase the chance that guys will want to mess with a given girl, or at least think dirty thoughts about her.
And for all the people saying "RAPE IS WRONG, BLAH BLAH" - honestly, yes, rape is wrong, but that doesn't mean you should condone slutty dressing from girls...that's called a straw man argument. Girls should understand that they're marketing themselves as sex objects when they dress like that; at the same time, guys should refrain from raping sluttily-dressed girls. Both parties have to watch themselves.
Although I really think that lotsa girls dress like sluts without understanding what it does to the guys that look at them...it's a sad load of female ignorance that we can thank the media for, I guess. Some girls get it, but some don't because they're just copying what they've been taught to do. Dressing sluttily should send you the signal that they may want to have a fun time with an enjoyable one-night stand with you, not that they want to be raped. You're right that dressing in revealing clothes =/= "I want to be raped" in most instances. I don't know that you're right about dressing in revealing clothes = "I want to have a one-night stand." I think that's an interpretive leap, but you're welcome to make it if you'd like. However, in any case, the motives of the girl for dressing how she dresses is irrelevant. It does not matter what "signal" she thinks her outfit is sending. It does not matter a bit. What matters, in relation to this thread, is whether or not dressing in revealing clothes is a risk factor for being raped. In other words, what matters is how potential rapists interpret those signals. I happen to think that outfit is not a significant risk factor for rape cases. But that doesn't mean that I agree, in the abstract, with the notion that advising women to avoid risk factors for rape equates to blaming rape-victims and/or excusing rapists, which seems to be a common refrain in this dialogue. Take something that actually is a risk factor for rape: alcohol. Advising a young woman to avoid heavy drinking (and likewise avoid heavy drink ers) in a potentially compromising situation is actually good advice (If I had a daughter, I would tattoo that little directive on the back of her hand). But the rhetoric of many of the pro-slutwalkers in this thread would string me up: "How dare you say that a woman who drinks wants to get raped!" "Women should have the right to get as drunk as they want and not be sexually assaulted!" As to the first assertion, I'm not saying that. As to the second, no shit. And that is why, in principle, I can't condone the slutwalk. Perhaps the policeman is a craven misogynist. I don't know. But perhaps he's just a run-of-the-mill, not-too-bright cop who has seen more than his share of tragic sexual assaults and wants to offer some piece of advice, any piece of advice that might help obviate future ones. Instead of entertaining this second possibility, though, people are just jumping on the chance to publicly decry a widely disapproved statement (for which there are, admittedly, wonderful compensations in the form of emotional satisfaction and group-inspired reassurance). I just can't get behind that. People can wage some campaign of awareness where we're going to educate the public into rooting out and eradicating rape (which has been a fact of human existence since prehistory). Or they can make sure that their female loved ones don't needlessly participate in behavior that might endanger them. I know which route I prefer. Excellent post. The people misreading the whole discussion as an argument about whether rape is wrong or not are really getting on my nerves. I just wish people that follow that mindset are all raped right know. It is SO EASY to say, "that's life !". You are all proud being "aware of risks", and you ignore that a lot could be done to reduce rapes. You basically are saying "there's no rape problem, people just have to be carefull". To these people, fuck you all, your are the shame of humanity, and why the world still is so fucked up. I think i deserve a ban, but sorry, i just had to tell this. At least i will stop posting, i feel i am wasting my time fighting medieval thinking. Ok, if you were the president or whatever, how would YOU plan to reduce crimes in general? Not just rapes, because rapes are just one of many horrible crimes. Be realistic here. Why are you talking about me being the president ? I don't know what the president should do. I know what PEOPLE should do : stop talking about rape as it was the problem of the victim that wasn't cautious enough. That's one of the things that helps rapists to get away with it. These people give me nausea. Edit : maybe the president could try to speak about it, but it is the mentalities that have to change. Edit2 : Is it unrealistic to hope that one day, not 90% of rapists get away with it ? Yeah, with people as archaic as many posters in this thread, we're not there yet !
Princess, so I am the "shame of humanity" and the reason the "world is still so fucked up" and you wish that I was "raped right now," but somehow you're the one promoting a humane and understanding view on the issue?
Once again, recognizing risk factors for a crime =/= excusing the perpetrators of that crime.
Also, advising someone to avoid recognized risk factors =/= blaming them for being victimized.
I know that, in your world, where you and your enlightened peers are fighting against the backwards and nauseating thinking that perpetuates "rape culture," this complex issue boils down to a simple you-agree-with-us-and-are-right or you-disagree-with-us-and-are-wrong proposition. But real, lived experience admits no such simplicity. I'm sorry.
You also seem to be operating with some model of moral progress. People that disagree with you are archaic and medieval, as if humankind improves morally as it advances in time. That's magical thinking.
Now if you want to have a discussion about how to better prevent, uncover, and prosecute sexual assaults, that's fine. I would love to have that discussion with you. But if what you really want is an opportunity to aggressively promote your hopelessly reductionist crusade against structural misogyny, to insult and belittle your opponents, and to insist on framing them as morally reprehensible atavisms from some more barbaric yesteryear, then it doesn't matter what anyone else says. The whole discussion is just going to serve your glorious foregone conclusion that you are totally and absolutely right on this matter.
What a boring conversation.
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Also any talk of how women should dress is extremely demeaning to men as well. Men are, in general, not animals incapable of controlling themselves, which is what such comments suggest. Men are held to insultingly low standards while women the opposite.
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On April 07 2011 01:36 HULKAMANIA wrote:
Also, advising someone to avoid recognized risk factors =/= blaming them for being victimized.
This is wrong, in the effort to educate, what would it take to convince you otherwise?
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On April 07 2011 01:16 PrincessLeila wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:07 buhhy wrote:On April 07 2011 01:02 PrincessLeila wrote:On April 07 2011 00:43 buhhy wrote:On April 07 2011 00:19 PrincessLeila wrote:On April 06 2011 19:22 Monsen wrote:On April 06 2011 16:07 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 06 2011 15:13 Ropid wrote:On April 06 2011 14:49 skypig wrote:
I don't see what the big deal is here - a girl that dresses provocatively is displaying herself as a sex object, whether she "intends" to or not. Most normal guys get a physiological reaction when they see a girl like that...so yes, slutty outfits increase the chance that guys will want to mess with a given girl, or at least think dirty thoughts about her.
And for all the people saying "RAPE IS WRONG, BLAH BLAH" - honestly, yes, rape is wrong, but that doesn't mean you should condone slutty dressing from girls...that's called a straw man argument. Girls should understand that they're marketing themselves as sex objects when they dress like that; at the same time, guys should refrain from raping sluttily-dressed girls. Both parties have to watch themselves.
Although I really think that lotsa girls dress like sluts without understanding what it does to the guys that look at them...it's a sad load of female ignorance that we can thank the media for, I guess. Some girls get it, but some don't because they're just copying what they've been taught to do. Dressing sluttily should send you the signal that they may want to have a fun time with an enjoyable one-night stand with you, not that they want to be raped. You're right that dressing in revealing clothes =/= "I want to be raped" in most instances. I don't know that you're right about dressing in revealing clothes = "I want to have a one-night stand." I think that's an interpretive leap, but you're welcome to make it if you'd like. However, in any case, the motives of the girl for dressing how she dresses is irrelevant. It does not matter what "signal" she thinks her outfit is sending. It does not matter a bit. What matters, in relation to this thread, is whether or not dressing in revealing clothes is a risk factor for being raped. In other words, what matters is how potential rapists interpret those signals. I happen to think that outfit is not a significant risk factor for rape cases. But that doesn't mean that I agree, in the abstract, with the notion that advising women to avoid risk factors for rape equates to blaming rape-victims and/or excusing rapists, which seems to be a common refrain in this dialogue. Take something that actually is a risk factor for rape: alcohol. Advising a young woman to avoid heavy drinking (and likewise avoid heavy drink ers) in a potentially compromising situation is actually good advice (If I had a daughter, I would tattoo that little directive on the back of her hand). But the rhetoric of many of the pro-slutwalkers in this thread would string me up: "How dare you say that a woman who drinks wants to get raped!" "Women should have the right to get as drunk as they want and not be sexually assaulted!" As to the first assertion, I'm not saying that. As to the second, no shit. And that is why, in principle, I can't condone the slutwalk. Perhaps the policeman is a craven misogynist. I don't know. But perhaps he's just a run-of-the-mill, not-too-bright cop who has seen more than his share of tragic sexual assaults and wants to offer some piece of advice, any piece of advice that might help obviate future ones. Instead of entertaining this second possibility, though, people are just jumping on the chance to publicly decry a widely disapproved statement (for which there are, admittedly, wonderful compensations in the form of emotional satisfaction and group-inspired reassurance). I just can't get behind that. People can wage some campaign of awareness where we're going to educate the public into rooting out and eradicating rape (which has been a fact of human existence since prehistory). Or they can make sure that their female loved ones don't needlessly participate in behavior that might endanger them. I know which route I prefer. Excellent post. The people misreading the whole discussion as an argument about whether rape is wrong or not are really getting on my nerves. I just wish people that follow that mindset are all raped right know. It is SO EASY to say, "that's life !". You are all proud being "aware of risks", and you ignore that a lot could be done to reduce rapes. You basically are saying "there's no rape problem, people just have to be carefull". To these people, fuck you all, your are the shame of humanity, and why the world still is so fucked up. I think i deserve a ban, but sorry, i just had to tell this. At least i will stop posting, i feel i am wasting my time fighting medieval thinking. Ok, if you were the president or whatever, how would YOU plan to reduce crimes in general? Not just rapes, because rapes are just one of many horrible crimes. Be realistic here. Why are you talking about me being the president ? I don't know what the president should do. I know what PEOPLE should do : stop talking about rape as it was the problem of the victim that wasn't cautious enough. That's one of the things that helps rapists to get away with it. These people give me nausea. Edit : maybe the president could try to speak about it, but it is the mentalities that have to change. If you're talking about the police officer, he was giving advice. He represents the State. The State should promote freedom, not suggest restricting freedoms to lower crime.
Jesus, you already restrict your freedom to lower risk everyday... You don't walk alone at night into alleyways in poor neighborhoods do you? Same principle here.
On April 07 2011 01:16 PrincessLeila wrote:Possible but not feasible ? Are you reading yourself ?
Oops, meant to say that avoiding some risks is not worth the risk itself.
On April 07 2011 01:16 PrincessLeila wrote:Show nested quote +
If you're talking about court cases, remember there are tons of false rape charges. Innocent before proven guilty. Most cases aren't cut and dry either.
And so what ? We should stop lawsuits about rape ? Innocent before proven guilty in murder cases too, and so what ? "Justice is good for some things, but rapes can't be judged ?" It's incredibly man-centered position : to protect the defendant (mostly men), we should not report rape to avoid false accusation ? Too bad for victims (mostly women). Ridiculous again.
Seriously, why are you stuffing words into my mouth, is English not your native language? Nowhere did I say accusations should stop. I'm stating that you cannot simple assume whatever the woman (or man) says is the objective truth. Because evidence is so hard to present in rape charges, and charging innocents is wrong, the prosecutor HAS to answer tons of questions to detect consistency.
You are only seeing the victims' angle, you do not see the side of the accused. Since most accused are men, and many men lose their livelihood to false rape charges, I'm gonna say you take an extremely female-centric position.
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On April 07 2011 01:39 Flat Zerg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:36 HULKAMANIA wrote:
Also, advising someone to avoid recognized risk factors =/= blaming them for being victimized.
This is wrong, in the effort to educate, what would it take to convince you otherwise?
He is correct, you are simply drawing implications from where there are none. Advising people to stay inside during a tornado is by no means blaming victims for dying to tornadoes.
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Given that:
Approximately 68% of rape victims knew their assailant.
28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends
35% by acquaintances
5% by other relatives
and only 29% of female victims reported that the offender was a stranger,
what is good advice to avoid being raped by your friends and husbands
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On April 07 2011 01:39 Flat Zerg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:36 HULKAMANIA wrote:
Also, advising someone to avoid recognized risk factors =/= blaming them for being victimized.
This is wrong, in the effort to educate, what would it take to convince you otherwise?
No, it is not wrong.
And I appreciate your efforts to "educate" me, but I have lived and breathed in the air of this sort of rhetoric for the past seven years of my higher education. So you can feel free to understand our discussion as the enlightened you graciously deigning to educate the unenlightened me, but odds are I bring the same refinement of interpretive faculties to this issue that you do.
What your stance does is takes an artificially narrow look at the "advice" phenomenon, but almost any sort of human interaction is too complex to be adequately addressed by formulae like "if you say X, then you obviously believe Y." You seem to want to divide everyone into two camps:
I. the bad guys: people who would advise women to avoid risk factors for sexual assault (because obviously what that boils down to is total complicity with sexual assault).
II. the good guys: people who want to reduce rape in the long-term by changing social norms via education (because obviously the one thing that improves morality is a good education).
Not only do I distrust the methodology of this anti-misogyny crusade of awareness, but more importantly I don't think that membership in the "advise right now" camp and the "work for the future" camp are mutually exclusive. It is your worldview that demands such black and white.
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On April 06 2011 17:57 Mahina wrote:What bothers me is the notion that by avoiding certain things women could prevent being raped, you're placing the responsibility with the (possible) victims. When I see lists of advices to prevent being raped, I always feel a bit indignant: so getting raped or not is MY responsibility? And what if it does happen, then I have apparently not paid enough attention to those guidelines, because rape is totally something women can prevent from happening to them. Unfortunately, even women who wear burqa's get raped. Rape has little to do with clothing or specific looks. Of course there are a few things one tries to do to for the sake of safety: I never return home alone at night after going out or something, but always arrange something with friends. Because the harsh reality is that it's not safe to do otherwise. But if, for some reason, I wouldn't be with friends when returning home and I'd end up getting raped, it wouldn't be my fault that it happened. Also I can really really recommend this blog entry I found some time ago: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html"the only thing a person can do to avoid being raped is never be in the same room as a rapist."
Exactly this. For everyone in this thread who has been saying that "dressing slutty" increases the risk of rape, well, then what about people who are raped when they were dressed conservatively? People are also saying that if a girl dresses in a slutty way, she's inviting people to view her as a sex object. But what about girls who are harassed even when they're wearing "normal" clothes? The clothes are not the cause of this, they're the excuse that these creeps use for acting that way.
I totally get giving the women in your lives advice like, don't walk home by yourself, keep a close eye on your drink at parties, etc. You tell them these things because you love them and you want them to be safe. But I hope you guys can also understand the problem with you having to tell us these things in the first place - because it's NOT our responsibility to not get raped. The reality is that we could be following all of this advice as carefully as we can, but it's not enough because we can still get hurt. This is the problem.
On April 07 2011 01:29 Flat Zerg wrote:
Yes, but what if we marginalize women even more by telling them what they can or can't do or suffer the consequences of rape? Maybe that would create sexual equality!
A lot of these nerdy misconceptions can be cleared up with like one google search of "rape facts". For example: "93 % of juvenile sexual assault victims knew their attacker". Treating women (or girls in this case) as a lower class that needs to follow special rules probably contributes to this statistic. If you're telling women they shouldn't do x, you are the problem. Maybe you're not a rapist or future rapist*, but you're encouraging mistreatment of women.
*About 3% of American men – or 1 in 33 – have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime
This too. Thank you.
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On April 07 2011 01:42 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:16 PrincessLeila wrote:On April 07 2011 01:07 buhhy wrote:On April 07 2011 01:02 PrincessLeila wrote:On April 07 2011 00:43 buhhy wrote:On April 07 2011 00:19 PrincessLeila wrote:On April 06 2011 19:22 Monsen wrote:On April 06 2011 16:07 HULKAMANIA wrote:On April 06 2011 15:13 Ropid wrote:On April 06 2011 14:49 skypig wrote:
I don't see what the big deal is here - a girl that dresses provocatively is displaying herself as a sex object, whether she "intends" to or not. Most normal guys get a physiological reaction when they see a girl like that...so yes, slutty outfits increase the chance that guys will want to mess with a given girl, or at least think dirty thoughts about her.
And for all the people saying "RAPE IS WRONG, BLAH BLAH" - honestly, yes, rape is wrong, but that doesn't mean you should condone slutty dressing from girls...that's called a straw man argument. Girls should understand that they're marketing themselves as sex objects when they dress like that; at the same time, guys should refrain from raping sluttily-dressed girls. Both parties have to watch themselves.
Although I really think that lotsa girls dress like sluts without understanding what it does to the guys that look at them...it's a sad load of female ignorance that we can thank the media for, I guess. Some girls get it, but some don't because they're just copying what they've been taught to do. Dressing sluttily should send you the signal that they may want to have a fun time with an enjoyable one-night stand with you, not that they want to be raped. You're right that dressing in revealing clothes =/= "I want to be raped" in most instances. I don't know that you're right about dressing in revealing clothes = "I want to have a one-night stand." I think that's an interpretive leap, but you're welcome to make it if you'd like. However, in any case, the motives of the girl for dressing how she dresses is irrelevant. It does not matter what "signal" she thinks her outfit is sending. It does not matter a bit. What matters, in relation to this thread, is whether or not dressing in revealing clothes is a risk factor for being raped. In other words, what matters is how potential rapists interpret those signals. I happen to think that outfit is not a significant risk factor for rape cases. But that doesn't mean that I agree, in the abstract, with the notion that advising women to avoid risk factors for rape equates to blaming rape-victims and/or excusing rapists, which seems to be a common refrain in this dialogue. Take something that actually is a risk factor for rape: alcohol. Advising a young woman to avoid heavy drinking (and likewise avoid heavy drink ers) in a potentially compromising situation is actually good advice (If I had a daughter, I would tattoo that little directive on the back of her hand). But the rhetoric of many of the pro-slutwalkers in this thread would string me up: "How dare you say that a woman who drinks wants to get raped!" "Women should have the right to get as drunk as they want and not be sexually assaulted!" As to the first assertion, I'm not saying that. As to the second, no shit. And that is why, in principle, I can't condone the slutwalk. Perhaps the policeman is a craven misogynist. I don't know. But perhaps he's just a run-of-the-mill, not-too-bright cop who has seen more than his share of tragic sexual assaults and wants to offer some piece of advice, any piece of advice that might help obviate future ones. Instead of entertaining this second possibility, though, people are just jumping on the chance to publicly decry a widely disapproved statement (for which there are, admittedly, wonderful compensations in the form of emotional satisfaction and group-inspired reassurance). I just can't get behind that. People can wage some campaign of awareness where we're going to educate the public into rooting out and eradicating rape (which has been a fact of human existence since prehistory). Or they can make sure that their female loved ones don't needlessly participate in behavior that might endanger them. I know which route I prefer. Excellent post. The people misreading the whole discussion as an argument about whether rape is wrong or not are really getting on my nerves. I just wish people that follow that mindset are all raped right know. It is SO EASY to say, "that's life !". You are all proud being "aware of risks", and you ignore that a lot could be done to reduce rapes. You basically are saying "there's no rape problem, people just have to be carefull". To these people, fuck you all, your are the shame of humanity, and why the world still is so fucked up. I think i deserve a ban, but sorry, i just had to tell this. At least i will stop posting, i feel i am wasting my time fighting medieval thinking. Ok, if you were the president or whatever, how would YOU plan to reduce crimes in general? Not just rapes, because rapes are just one of many horrible crimes. Be realistic here. Why are you talking about me being the president ? I don't know what the president should do. I know what PEOPLE should do : stop talking about rape as it was the problem of the victim that wasn't cautious enough. That's one of the things that helps rapists to get away with it. These people give me nausea. Edit : maybe the president could try to speak about it, but it is the mentalities that have to change. If you're talking about the police officer, he was giving advice. He represents the State. The State should promote freedom, not suggest restricting freedoms to lower crime. Jesus, you already restrict your freedom to lower risk everyday... You don't walk alone at night into alleyways in poor neighborhoods do you? Same principle here. Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:16 PrincessLeila wrote:
Managing risk is always possible, though not always feasible.
Possible but not feasible ? Are you reading yourself ? Oops, meant to say that avoiding some risks is not worth the risk itself. Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:16 PrincessLeila wrote:
If you're talking about court cases, remember there are tons of false rape charges. Innocent before proven guilty. Most cases aren't cut and dry either.
And so what ? We should stop lawsuits about rape ? Innocent before proven guilty in murder cases too, and so what ? "Justice is good for some things, but rapes can't be judged ?" It's incredibly man-centered position : to protect the defendant (mostly men), we should not report rape to avoid false accusation ? Too bad for victims (mostly women). Ridiculous again. Seriously, why are you stuffing words into my mouth, is English not your native language? Nowhere did I say accusations should stop. I'm stating that you cannot simple assume whatever the woman (or man) says is the objective truth. Because evidence is so hard to present in rape charges, and charging innocents is wrong, the prosecutor HAS to answer tons of questions to detect consistency. You are only seeing the victims' angle, you do not see the side of the accused. Since most accused are men, and many men lose their livelihood to false rape charges, I'm gonna say you take an extremely female-centric position.
What you say in your last two paragraphs has to be invented by you. No one gets convicted if it's only word against word. Nowadays with DNA evidence together with bruises or smth, I believe you can make pretty sure to not be mislead by liars. And every report about statistics I remember was mentioning how their is a minuscule percentage of false accusations.
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On April 07 2011 01:57 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:39 Flat Zerg wrote:On April 07 2011 01:36 HULKAMANIA wrote:
Also, advising someone to avoid recognized risk factors =/= blaming them for being victimized.
This is wrong, in the effort to educate, what would it take to convince you otherwise? No, it is not wrong. And I appreciate your efforts to "educate" me, but I have lived and breathed in the air of this sort of rhetoric for the past seven years of my higher education. So you can feel free to understand our discussion as the enlightened you graciously deigning to educate the unenlightened me, but odds are I bring the same refinement of interpretive faculties to this issue that you do. What your stance does is takes an artificially narrow look at the "advice" phenomenon, but almost any sort of human interaction is too complex to be adequately addressed by formulae like "if you say X, then you obviously believe Y." You seem to want to divide everyone into two camps: I. the bad guys: people who would advise women to avoid risk factors for sexual assault (because obviously what that boils down to is total complicity with sexual assault). II. the good guys: people who want to reduce rape in the long-term by changing social norms via education (because obviously the one thing that improves morality is a good education). Not only do I distrust the methodology of this anti-misogyny crusade of awareness, but more importantly I don't think that membership in the "advise right now" camp and the "work for the future" camp are mutually exclusive. It is your worldview that demands such black and white.
Fair enough, so what do you tell your daughter to do to not be raped by her friends and relatives?
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On April 07 2011 01:50 Flat Zerg wrote:
Given that:
Approximately 68% of rape victims knew their assailant.
28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends
35% by acquaintances
5% by other relatives
and only 29% of female victims reported that the offender was a stranger,
what is good advice to avoid being raped by your friends and husbands
Every chance you get you should make comments that leads them to believe that you will absolutely report them, if they rape you. 
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On April 07 2011 01:57 meeyoop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 17:57 Mahina wrote:What bothers me is the notion that by avoiding certain things women could prevent being raped, you're placing the responsibility with the (possible) victims. When I see lists of advices to prevent being raped, I always feel a bit indignant: so getting raped or not is MY responsibility? And what if it does happen, then I have apparently not paid enough attention to those guidelines, because rape is totally something women can prevent from happening to them. Unfortunately, even women who wear burqa's get raped. Rape has little to do with clothing or specific looks. Of course there are a few things one tries to do to for the sake of safety: I never return home alone at night after going out or something, but always arrange something with friends. Because the harsh reality is that it's not safe to do otherwise. But if, for some reason, I wouldn't be with friends when returning home and I'd end up getting raped, it wouldn't be my fault that it happened. Also I can really really recommend this blog entry I found some time ago: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html"the only thing a person can do to avoid being raped is never be in the same room as a rapist." Exactly this. For everyone in this thread who has been saying that "dressing slutty" increases the risk of rape, well, then what about people who are raped when they were dressed conservatively? People are also saying that if a girl dresses in a slutty way, she's inviting people to view her as a sex object. But what about girls who are harassed even when they're wearing "normal" clothes? The clothes are not the cause of this, they're the excuse that these creeps use for acting that way. I totally get giving the women in your lives advice like, don't walk home by yourself, keep a close eye on your drink at parties, etc. You tell them these things because you love them and you want them to be safe. But I hope you guys can also understand the problem with you having to tell us these things in the first place - because it's NOT our responsibility to not get raped. The reality is that we could be following all of this advice as carefully as we can, but it's not enough because we can still get hurt. This is the problem.
There is a substantial number of people (myself included) in this thread that do not believe that dressing in revealing clothes increases the risk of rape. All I'm arguing is that, in principle, it's not a bad thing to give the women in your lives advice about avoiding compromising situations. And it looks like we agree on that.
And of course it's not your responsibility to not get raped. I don't think anyone is actually arguing that it is. It's not a child's responsibility to not get abducted. It's not an inmates responsibility to not get stabbed to death. It's not a college student's responsibility to not suffer identity theft. I think very few people look out at the world and think, "Man, all these people being victimized in all these different ways sure had it coming!" I don't deny that there are people like that. I just don't think they form any sort of overarching majority. Nor do they deserve to be the targets of enlightenment campaigns.
And I agree that it is a problem that even with 100% adherence to good advice, a woman could still be victimized, mostly likely by someone that she knows and trusts. That's a horrible and sobering thought for anyone who has a girlfriend, a wife, a sister, a daughter, a mother, anything. But I would suggest that the proper reaction to that thought is equal parts pragmatism and idealism. In the now, we must work to behave with reasonable attention to our own safety and the safety of our loved ones. In the long-term, we must work to make our share lives, our society, as safe as possible.
But I simply will not agree with anyone who conceives of advising people to avoid certain risks as tacitly approving of and perpetuating a culture of sexual assault.
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Don't go to a bar alone. Instead, go with some friends, or maybe your cousin, who ironically have a statistically higher chance of assaulting you than strangers.
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EPT
