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Please guys, stay on topic. This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On August 21 2014 22:57 PiPoGevy wrote: Sharia Law treats every non-muslim like a second class or third class citizen, that's the last thing I'll live under. Somebody mentioned creating Assyria, oh how that would be beautiful... Are you Assyrian? Just curious. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On August 19 2014 03:37 Sub40APM wrote: 50 year old soviet tanks will fuck up a humwee. The US has so far reported that they have struck 0 US tanks, which means all that ISIS had to chase away the mighty Kurds was humwees and APCs, which again, get fucked up by even World War 2 tanks. This is what it really looks like. Kurds used ISIS to galvanize world opinion further by letting ISIS slaughter the most vulnerable and least politically threatening people and American armed strikes, allowing the Kurds to preserve their troops for what they believe will be an inevitable confrontation with the Shiites in Baghdad. That's not true the Kurds were involved in the evacuation of the majority of the Yizidi people most of whom are now in (relative) safety in Kurdish-held territory. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On August 19 2014 04:09 Redox wrote: It is not coincidence that the Kurds were only "unable" to hold Yazidi, Assyrian and Shia areas. And ISIS is not that much better equipped than Kurds. Those few Humvees are not gamechanging. Kurds also have much bigger numbers than ISIS in the region, maybe about 10 times as many. It was more than a 'few humvees', ISIS militants may be in a position to pummel other cities in Iraqi army control after capturing American-made weapons the group seized from the Iraqi military, Mitchell Prothero reports for McClatchy DC. During ISIS's blitz across northern and central Iraq last month, the group captured upwards of 52 155mm M198 howitzers. These U.S.-supplied artillery pieces have a range of up to 20 miles and can also be outfitted with GPS aiming systems. The howitzers' range could place Baghdad, as well as many other major Iraqi cities, squarely within bombardment range of ISIS. Jeremy Binnie, an analyst for British military consultancy HIS Janes, told McClatchy DC that he doubted the Islamists would be able to learn how to use the GPS aiming systems quickly. However, the weapons can fire two rounds a minute and could still cause considerable damage to cities through imprecise fire. “They shouldn’t have too much trouble shelling large area targets like a city if they have sufficient ammo," Binnie said. ISIS currently maintains a stronghold in the city of Fallujah, only 40 miles to the west of Baghdad. The group has also made gains to the south of Baghdad in the area Jurf al Sakhar, which is only 13 miles from the Shiite holy city of Karbala. Should ISIS blindly shell Karbala, Iraq could plunge even further into a sectarian civil war between Sunnis and Shias. ISIS has also attempted to shell at least twice so far the golden-domed Samarra Shrine, whose destruction in 2006 set off a terrible cycle of violence. Aside from the 52 howitzers, ISIS also took 1,500 U.S.-made Humvees and 4,000 PKC machine guns that can fire upwards of 800 rounds per minute. http://www.businessinsider.com/isis-has-52-american-weapons-that-can-hit-baghdad-2014-7 | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
Yemens semi-dictator has accepted a federalisation already, but how it is going to be will be subject to several referendums in 2015 or later. Meanwhile the control of the land is split like in Syria, with AQAP (Al Quaida Arabian Peninsula) controlling a majority of the country and a Shia group (most likely supported by Iran) controlling an area north of Sanaa and they are setting ultimatums to broaden the representation in the extremely corrupt central government too or they are going to attack Sanaa. It is just not as well covered as Syria and Iraq, just as AQAP are on the slightly less extreme side compared to IS when it comes to their domestic issues. But Al Quaida in any country is scary since they have a global agenda too. Yemen and Oman are very scary indeed. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On August 21 2014 22:57 PiPoGevy wrote: Sharia Law treats every non-muslim like a second class or third class citizen, that's the last thing I'll live under. Somebody mentioned creating Assyria, oh how that would be beautiful... That was me mate, much earlier in the thread  It was a rebuttal to calls for Kurdistan "deserving" independence, when other groups "deserve" it more. Kurds are notoriously violent, but what have Assyrians done but silently suffer genocide, persecution, and cleansing, sometimes even at the hands of Kurdish radicals, simply for their religion? Still, an independent state like this would be very difficult to make stable or wealthy. Small territory + no existing organized governmental structure + no more of the many benefits of Iraqi society and government and wealth. It's a very rough scenario. I know a million and one Iraqis due to my hometown and past duties, largely from the Assyrians churches. None consider themselves separate apart from Iraq.On August 22 2014 03:20 AngryMag wrote: A bit offtopic, but still Arabian Peninsula. I just read that "several 10 000" armed shiite rebels are in and around the capital of Yemen, they are tribal fighters and demand independence from the sunni central government. Seems that it might be possible to see another sectarian conflict zone opening up. It is just hard to imagine that the sunni government in Yemen (right next to the sunni hardliners in Riad) will give in to the demands of the rebels, fighting is already happening in the countries periphery.... @Hammurabi: I don't think that they'll get IS out of Mossul and Tikrit, they still have the Baathists on their side, who are rightfully afraid of the governmental blowback for their little marriage with IS. Of course they cannot hold the countryside, they are a guerilla force which is able to overwhelm already wounded or weak opponents, they cannot beat a fresh and battle ready "real" army, Iranian soldiers are already engaged in Iraq, 2-3 weaks ago you could read about the first iranian officer dying on the Iraqi battlefield, I still tend to think that we would see a much bigger Iranian engagement if IS would attack Bagdad, I just cannot see the Iranians trusting the Iraqis to get the job done themselves and protect the Shrines down south as they already watched divisions simply falter without trying to fight back. Despite getting thrown out again (which will be non-fatal, the power base of the organisation is in Syria, at this moment nobody is strong enough to really challenge their territorial gains there), the operation was still a huge success. They robbed billions from banks and Iraqi oil income, they taxed the population and gained an enormous amount of points on the jihadibility scale with the massacres) Regarding IS casualties of their offensive, I somewhere read that around 2000 of their fighters died during the time the offensive in Iraq took place (this casuality number includes both fronts, Syria and Iraq, spanning a timeframe of ~2,5 months). On the other hand the Syrian Observatory thing claimed that they just had their most succesful recruitment months with 6000 new recruits from all over the world, of course you cannot just compare numbers as most of new recruits will just be cannonfodder, only a minority will stay alive long enough to become an effective jihadi guerilla, but still they are in good shape. For really challenging their influence, one must attack their power base in Syra. unfortunately they are still making progress there. They are slowly pushing towards Aleppo again. If they manage to conquer the airport (don't know its name, would have to look up) where they are fighting government forces right now, they'll open a corridor to Holms and decrease the pressure of the Syrian airforce. Overall, I just think that hey are in it for the long run and only the regional powers can stop them (Iran, Turkey), especially as the whole area is in a big mess, middle powers are weakened by Civil war or are on the brink of Civil War, the smaller countries might get drawn in and then they'll be up for the grabs, too. I don't think Turkey will act, they are supporting IS with weapons, medical care and an never ending stream of new recruits (turkish nationals are by far the largest foreign fighting force within IS). It will either be Iran or some kind of Alliance who gets to them, unfortunately I don't see it happening in the near future, just my opinion of course. It's not so much that Iranians don't trust Iraqis. It's that Iraqis don't trust Iranians , for very good and obvious reasons of Iran trying to take control in the Mideast and expand their devilish ideology and influence, especially since the Islamic Revolution that made Iranian society go backwards like 500 years. Kerbala and Najaf are 10000x more important to Iranian government (for religious reasons of all the goddamn things) than Crimea is to Russia for military purposes. Since the Islamic Revolution, the Iranians have basically been trying to take control of Iraq one way or another and clear out the evil heathens who rule it, whether Khomeini's jihad, support of Iraqi Shiite terrorist groups, and upholding radical clerics. I don't think they care so much about Baghdad, which, to reiterate, is heavily bunkered down. Iran's only interest is in expanding their power. They are the last nation anyone, especially Iraqis, should trust. On second thought, Kerbala and Najaf being destroyed would do Iraq and the world a favor. All that happens there is fostering Islamic radicalism, especially thanks to legit psychos like al-Sadr. I wouldn't complain if ISIS destroyed those two particular cities and then ISIS got wiped out by Iraqi forces. It would be a big, well-deserved "Fuck off" to the Iranians and their unwavering support of terrorism and a huge blow to Islamic radicalism, which quite frankly, I've been quite sick of since seeing it.You forget why Iraqi forces ditched so swiftly in June. It was because it was literally run by Maliki's old goons who literally made no order to fight, so everyone just high-tailed it. Things already appear to be rather different at this point in time, both chronologically and politically, especially in regards to anywhere not held by ISIS. The biggest mistakes the American Empire made in Iraq (aside from the horrific full embargo) was disbanding the Iraqi military and de-Baathification (aka the removal of the most competent and inclusive politicians in the country). Actually, Iraq was pretty much the one stabilizing force in the Middle East, and the genocide and economic destruction and devastation of the embargo and the war are absolutely abhorrent. Remove those and we'd have a very wealthy, progressive, developed nation today, most likely. Even now, there are some calls to remove this political oppression of any party the government opposes (especially the old Baath), as Iraqi government is about as ineffective as a 3rd world government can get (at least during Maliki's reign). Not to mention, some old Baath leaders, having been betrayed and ousted by an authoritarian Islamic radical-rooted group (Islamic Dawa), have for good reason taken the fight against it. Bring them back into the fold, and things will improve dramatically. The organization of the insurgents will falter, and the organization and effectiveness of Iraqi politics will improve dramatically. These are the guys who for 40 years made Iraq a much needed bulwark against terrorism, Islamism, and chaos and champion of secularism, development, and non-sectarianism, after all. They weren't as humble and loved as the CIA-ousted Abdul Kareem Qassim, but they were very competent and organized. Exclude the past 20 years and especially the forced political collapse in 2003, and IS would have been slaughtered by the Iraqis the second they cropped up in Syria, assuming they ever would have. You sure about Syria? I last heard the Syrians are making advances against them. It could have been only a part of the story though. Here is some semi-good news though. Today, the Secretary of Defense was very serious about the ISIS threat, and demanded more action be taken (saw it on a speech from him on TV news). Also this report, from a US general damning that ISIS is also struck in Syria as well. Speak of the devil, just as you said needs to happen. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/22/world/middleeast/isis-believed-to-have-as-many-as-17000-fighters.html?_r=0 I don't think Turkey will act, they are supporting IS with weapons, medical care and an never ending stream of new recruits (turkish nationals are by far the largest foreign fighting force within IS). Are you sure about this? Do you have proof? Because you realize if what you're saying is true, this is pretty damning for Turkey. What you're saying is going on is an absolutely atrocious action. Think about it. If this is even remotely true, Turkey should be removed from NATO and sanctioned. But, so as long as Erdogan sucks on Uncle Sam's impressive dick, he shouldn't fear anything. Whether supporting terrorists in Iraq and Syria (which you claim), or likening Israel to Nazi Germany, is abhorrent. My condolences to the Turkish people for having these lunatics. Turkey is not Saudi Arabia. They should not be supporting Islamic terrorists. Erdogan shits all over Ataturk's reformist legacy. Please show me proof of your claims. It's extremely shocking. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On August 22 2014 10:34 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: More reports seeming to confirm the death of Abu Mosa being killed in Raqqa. He's just a bloody pressboy. Show me 10,000 ISIS corpses, then I'll be happy. On August 22 2014 04:17 tomatriedes wrote: Even if IS is defeated in Iraq it won't stop the hardline Sunnis in Saudi, Qatar and the other gulf states from pouring their billions into other terrorist groups and operations just as they financed 9/11. What really needs to happen is sanctions and bank freezes against these people but that will never happen because the west wants their oil and money, so they'll have to keep playing whack-a-mole with the terrorist organizations crop up rather than confronting the source directly. You are exactly correct. Then the US should not being a rabid imperialist state, and instead be a force for good by solely fighting against Islamic terrorism and never supporting it when it serves their political purposes. They can start by turning Riyadh into a crater. The US in its 60 years of terror and coups in the Mideast has almost always done things to empower Islamists or taken out people that are keeping the Islamist jihads at bay, rather than destroying the factions and governments responsible for it. An absolutely embarrassing and disgusting fact of our policy. Our men never signed up to fight in support of jihad. On August 21 2014 18:16 Laserist wrote: My thoughts: + Show Spoiler + When you talking about problems of one country with its neighbors, you have to look at the recent past of the parties. Do you know where the Kurdish separatists based and launch their armed attacks? Let me liberate you from go hard on your memory: It is Iraq! (Specifically Qandil Mountains) Wiki : + Show Spoiler + The territory is notable as a sanctuary for the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK). This organization controls an area of roughly 50 km², which has been bombarded by the Turkish Air Force and shelled by Iranian artillery for several years. No terrorist organization(yeah Kurdish separatists are still considered as terrorists, worldwide) can live in a country without the support of the ruling body. Turkey demanded actions against them all the time but neither Saddam nor whatever ruling body of Iraq now, did any actions against them because either Saddam or US used them as a tool for different purposes(keep Turkey in check or whatever reason). I'll let the research to you about the situation of Kurds-Turkey, PKK(armed separatist wing), drug trade, arms trade etc.. Turkey has a right to look down on other middle-east country because Turkey is the only secular democracy in the region. Far more developed than others and let me phrase you, we have no intentions on invading any country or whatever. I'd like to quote 2 parts from your response 1 - "When have you heard of an imperialist power cleaning up the mess they created?" 2 - "Turkey would not be acting "alone". Even if they don't want to coordinate with the "inferior" Arabs of Syria and Iraq, they can coordinate with the United States, which is already involved in the conflict. If NATO's leader, Syria, Iraq, and the resident Kurdish/Arab militias, aren't enough international cooperation for you, I don't know what is, unless you're expecting the "mighty" militaries of non-Russian Europe to be able to do anything." Why should Turkey trust US? Arabs in Syria torn by civil war. Arabs in Iraq have no strong military, neither willpower to be hero. How much military power NATO will(or did) dispatch for the holy anti-ISIS campaign? Kurdish militia(peshmerge) has some military power but a part of the peshmerge fight "against" Turkey for a little while ago. US only support air operations and deliberately dodge a land intervention. I couldn't consider the parties that you mention as an international cooperation. They are local authorities with various power levels, bar US. If you ask me what should Turkey do, 1 - Ruler Party should strongly condemn ISIS disregarding their rotten Islamic roots. There is no excuse to stay low against terrorism. 2 - Turkey should lobby in Nato and other power nodes to press ISIS issue especially starting in financial sense. ISIS Finance About military intervention, I am skeptical about that because Syria and all the political powers there accuse Turkey as invader no matter. And probably they wouldn't want any Turkish soldier in that particular area despite the international agreement on what ISIS is. If I did go personal on something sorry about that. I just don't understand how related genocide claims and other stuff with the topic since Turkey suffered a lot because of the radical Islamist terrorists. I'll keep those out of the conversation for the sake of the integrity of the topic. Turkey played a minor role if it played any in ISIS issue and people expect too much from Turkey imho. Iraq used to crush Kurdish insurgencies and terrorists. But you know what happened in 1991? The US destroyed Iraq and put history's first full trade embargo in an effort to devastate the nation and kill its people. The Soviet collapse and chaos facilitated the ability for the US to achieve this quite easily; we ruled the world in the 1990s. Iraq could not take take any action against the Kurds without the US destroying it more. Do not blame Saddam for this. Blame the USA. Hussein was the greatest enemy of terrorism, of course he would have smashed if he was allowed. Saddam was an enemy of Kurdish insurgency. How can you claim he would suddenly support it? I know very much about the Kurds. I am fond of the Kurds, but I'm also realistic. Why do you think I find it hilarious how some ignorant people claim them as white lamb victims? They're a simple society of aggressive tribes and fanatical militants. Most Kurds are perfectly good and normal people, but they have many crazies who lead them and do the fighting. Yes, I am well-aware of these things. I even know they're the ass of jokes regarding lack of intelligence. I'm more knowledgeable than you think on Mideastern matters, especially Iraq. You needn't tell me, and please, do not speak to me like I am ignorant on these things. Turkey has a right to look down on other middle-east country because Turkey is the only secular democracy in the region. Far more developed than others and let me phrase you, we have no intentions on invading any country or whatever. This is untrue. Israel and Lebanon are secular democratic (minus Hezbollah), and by democracy, I'm assuming you mean actually 'fair' democracy. Israel, yes that same Israel that Erdogan said is like Nazi Germany, is far more developed than Turkey, without the masses of resources, population, and territory that Turkey has. Turkey was at the center of a great empire for centuries, and is still significantly worse off than its European counterparts (except some Balkan and former Communist nations)! After centuries of exploiting the Mideast and North Africa and Balkans of everything, and keeping them in the Stone Age, some of these countries have still surpassed Turkey. Even the Greeks, those "evil, despicable" enemies of Turkey, have a much better nation in which to live. What does that tell you? I think the Gulf Arabs and Israelis should be looking down on Turkey. They're wealthier and more developed My point is, unlike your claim, Turkey has ZERO reason to look down on anyone lol. They are not only arrogant in doing so, but completely unjustified, because some of these countries are doing better than them.Hell, even those "inferior" Gulf Arab countries are a lot better economically proportionally-speaking than Turkey. Even with sanctions and all sorts of garbage, Iran is practically on par with Turkey. Also, bad news for Turkey: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jessecolombo/2014/03/05/why-the-worst-is-still-ahead-for-turkeys-bubble-economy/ I like Turkey, mate, but sadly, I don't like the arrogance from the politics  It's almost like the US, except the US is actually a very advanced, developed, and wealthy country, the best of the bunch in those regards. So it at least makes sense for our politics to be cocky.Why should Turkey trust US? Turkey doesn't trust its own ally? Well isn't that a shame. If Turkey doesn't want to be a part of NATO, perhaps we should not have them in this alliance. About military intervention, I am skeptical about that because Syria and all the political powers there accuse Turkey as invader no matter. And probably they wouldn't want any Turkish soldier in that particular area despite the international agreement on what ISIS is Air power =/= ground forces in the country. For whatever reason, air strikes, despite being a form of military aggression, are not considered as bad as actually moving in ground forces. Perhaps Turkey should cooperate with the US in this regard to see what it can do to assist. | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
On August 22 2014 03:20 AngryMag wrote: I don't think Turkey will act, they are supporting IS with weapons, medical care and an never ending stream of new recruits (turkish nationals are by far the largest foreign fighting force within IS). Well imho this is completely wrong. People confuse Turkey's support(I should add it is not admitted officially but well know) to Syrian Rebels with ISIS. Turkey has no known(to my knowledge) support to ISIS in any form. I also wonder how do you conclude Turkey supply "never ending" stream of new recruits to ISIS. There is no organized scheme to join ISIS in Turkey but there are always religious fanatics in every country to join ill causes. I appreciate if you share the source of information(about being largest foreign fighter force), I really wonder the numbers. It is good to learn Gulf Arabs & Greece are more developed than Turkey. | ||
zatic
Zurich15342 Posts
On August 22 2014 17:45 Laserist wrote: Well imho this is completely wrong. People confuse Turkey's support(I should add it is not admitted officially but well know) to Syrian Rebels with ISIS. Turkey has no known(to my knowledge) support to ISIS in any form. I also wonder how do you conclude Turkey supply "never ending" stream of new recruits to ISIS. There is no organized scheme to join ISIS in Turkey but there are always religious fanatics in every country to join ill causes. I appreciate if you share the source of information(about being largest foreign fighter force), I really wonder the numbers. I think they are talking about European recruits traveling to Turkey and then crossing the border into Syria. To be fair though there is really little Turkey can do about it. Don't know about Turkish fighters being the biggest foreign force in ISIS either, first time I hear that. | ||
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AssyrianKing
Australia2111 Posts
Yes  | ||
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1903 Posts
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7f7_1408633204 2 hour documentary by PressTV. Just so you know, PressTV is iranian state television and I can't judge how biased it may be, but then again that is a problem nowadays with almost all media sources. I just had time to watch the first hour so far and it seems to show older scenes before the creation of the caliphate, I don't know how close to present time the documentary gets towards the end. Be advised there are some graphic scenes (executions etc.) in the video but a warning pops up before such scenes are shown if you want to avoid them. | ||
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AngryMag
Germany1040 Posts
http://www.eurasianet.org/node/69586 http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/dgreenfield/isis-commander-credits-islamist-turkey-for-terror-groups-success/ http://www.globalresearch.ca/turkey-supports-al-qaeda-in-syria-complicit-in-the-kidnapping-of-syrian-orthdodox-bishopss/5367369 http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/30/ISIS-Fighter-Claims-Turkey-Funds-the-Jihadist-Group http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/04/world/europe/isis-gaining-strength-on-syria-turkey-border/ http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Islamic-State-fighter-Turkey-paved-the-way-for-us-369443 http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/islamic-state-50000-fighters-syria-2014819184258421392.html http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/06/zaman-syria-kurds-rojava-ypg-muslim-pyd-pkk-turkey-isis.html# http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10415935/Al-Qaeda-recruits-entering-Syria-from-Turkey-safehouses.html http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/08/the-islamic-state-this-is-a-mess-of-turkeys-making I think the reasons for Turkey's support of IS are their fight against the Kurds and this: ![[image loading]](http://didban.ir/images/didbanimage/69/326.JPG) This little picture shows the young Erdogan with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (google that guy, all warning signs should go on immidiately). Erdogan is the guy at his feet, the dude is a borderline Sunni nutjob himself, that is why he is supporting them. Apart from the links and the picture above, you can often read the impression of turkish citizens living along the borders to Syria and they claim, that the weapon supplies continue to pass the border, not hindered by boarder guards.. EDIT: Before anyone critisizes the sources, this is just the stuff I could find with a 5 minute google search, if you want to read yourself into the topic of turkish support for IS, you should have no problem to do so, there's a ton of press releases, opinions from locals etc. all over the web. Erdogan can deny all he wants.. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13960 Posts
People have the right to change and not be held accountable for the things they used to believe in. | ||
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AngryMag
Germany1040 Posts
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
Former muslim extremist talks about european muslim people going to fight for ISIS. Hint: all praise multiculturalism and don't you dare speak against another religion, you intolerant scum. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
More than 191,000 people have been killed in the Syrian conflict up to April, the UN human rights chief says. Navi Pillay said the figure was "probably an underestimate" and criticised what she called "international paralysis" on the issue. The figure is more than double the UN estimate given a year ago. Source | ||
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