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Iraq & Syrian Civil Wars - Page 164

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Please guys, stay on topic.

This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 20 2013 06:58 GMT
#3261


"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18831 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-20 08:02:27
November 20 2013 08:01 GMT
#3262
If you think that the West goaded the rebels into attacking Assad's regime, you really have not been paying attention. Assad goaded the rebels into attacking Assad's regime.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
sgtnoobkilla
Profile Joined July 2012
Australia249 Posts
November 20 2013 12:17 GMT
#3263
Regardless of whoever started it, it's a bit late for diplomacy now. Only way to solve this is for either one of the sides to burn down completely, and it's certainly seeming that way for the FSA, though the Al-Qaeda ship won't be going down any time soon that's for sure

Ceasefires will only prolong the inevitable. Assad knows full well that he'll win in the short term and his recent offensives are perfect examples of this. You can expect a moderate Iraqi-style insurgency, minus the "Death to America!" and anti-West rhetoric after Assad wins of course though.
Don't play with your food unless it plays with you first.
Disregard
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
China10252 Posts
November 21 2013 04:08 GMT
#3264
Its a different issue when you have a relatively effective home army with foreign support fighting without all the ridiculous rules of engagement and intervention by intentional committees. At this point its either fight till Assad's regime collapses or the rebel groups slowly destroy each other while also battling the Syrian Army and its supporters.
"If I had to take a drug in order to be free, I'm screwed. Freedom exists in the mind, otherwise it doesn't exist."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 22 2013 05:51 GMT
#3265
Not sure I should post this but it is very NSFW, ANNA crew under sniper attack:

+ Show Spoiler +
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 22 2013 15:59 GMT
#3266
BEIRUT - Six key Islamist groups fighting President Bashar al-Assad's regime in Syria joined forces on Friday, a spokeperson for Aleppo's biggest rebel force said.

"Thank God, the complete merger of the major military factions fighting in Syria has been announced," Liwa al-Tawhid spokeperson Abu Firas said in a posting on Facebook.

The creation of the joint force -- which has been dubbed the Islamic Front -- came after major regime advances on key battlegrounds around Damascus and Aleppo in northern Syria.

Opposition sources and experts have attributed the regime's successes in part to rebel disunity.

The groups merged days after the death of Liwa al-Tawhid's charismatic military chief Abdel Qader Saleh, who had reportedly made calls for such a rebel alliance.

According to Abu Firas, the groups merging their troops were Liwa al-Tawhid, Ahrar al-Sham, the Army of Islam, Suqour al-Sham, Liwa al-Haq and the Ansar al-Sham battalions.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
iMAniaC
Profile Joined March 2010
Norway703 Posts
November 22 2013 17:20 GMT
#3267
On November 22 2013 14:51 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Not sure I should post this but it is very NSFW, ANNA crew under sniper attack:

+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhBnXjI_qOM#t=107


Thanks for putting it in spoilers! I don't really want to watch that kind of stuff and this thread serves as my source for news about what the mainstream media should continue to report on, so I appreciate not having to see it, but still get all the updates
Disregard
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
China10252 Posts
November 22 2013 20:43 GMT
#3268
This is news but don't really trust these networks but I just hate how many others desensitize, not show the true reality and recycle news. This is reality for many civilians still residing in Syria.
"If I had to take a drug in order to be free, I'm screwed. Freedom exists in the mind, otherwise it doesn't exist."
TheRealArtemis
Profile Joined October 2011
687 Posts
November 22 2013 23:57 GMT
#3269
NSFW
+ Show Spoiler +

This video footage from the historic Syriac Christian town of Sadad in Syria's Homs countryside shows militants from the "Free Syrian Army" (FSA) shouting with jubilation as they claim to have "liberated" the Christian town from the regime forces.


Sadad - "What happened in Sadad is the most serious and biggest massacre of Christians in Syria in the past two years and a half": this was stressed by Archbishop Selwanos Boutros Alnemeh, Syriac Orthodox Metropolitan of Homs and Hama, in illustrating to Fides the tragic death toll in the Christian town of Sadad, invaded by Islamist militias a week ago and then re-conquered by the Syrian army.

"45 innocent civilians were martyred for no reason, and among them several women and children, many thrown into mass graves. Other civilians were threatened and terrorized. 30 were wounded and 10 are still missing. For one week, 1,500 families were held as hostages and human shields. Among them children, the elderly, the young, men and women. Some of them fled on foot travelling 8 km from Sadad to Al-Hafer to find refuge. About 2,500 families fled from Sadad, taking only their clothes, due to the irruption of armed groups and today they are refugees scattered between Damascus, Homs, Fayrouza, Zaydal, Maskane, and Al-Fhayle".

The archbishop continues showing all his bitterness: "There is no electricity, water and telephone in the city. All the houses of Sadad were robbed and property looted. The churches are damaged and desecrated, deprived of old books and precious furniture. Schools, government buildings, municipal buildings have been destroyed, along with the post office, the hospital and the clinic"."What happened in Sadad - he says – is the largest massacre of Christians in Syria and the second in the Middle East, after the one in the Church of Our Lady of Salvation in Iraq, in 2010".

Archbishop Selwanos Boutros Alnemeh concludes: "We have shouted aid to the world but no one has listened to us. Where is the Christian conscience? Where is human consciousness? Where are my brothers? I think of all those who are suffering today in mourning and discomfort: We ask everyone to pray for us".Sadad is a small town of 15,000 people, mostly Syriac Orthodox Christians, located 160 km north of Damascus. It has 14 churches and a monastery with four priests.


http://www.news.va/en/news/asiasyria-syriac-orthodox-archbishop-alnemeh-in-sa

religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-23 05:40:51
November 23 2013 05:40 GMT
#3270
In some spots the Video shows foreign, seemingly European, fighters:



Heavy shelling of Eastern Ghouta:



Compilation of SAA footage:

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
iyasq8
Profile Joined December 2012
113 Posts
November 23 2013 06:27 GMT
#3271
i didnt see the European fighters, are they in the last video?
Piece
Scorpion77
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
98 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-23 07:13:38
November 23 2013 06:57 GMT
#3272
If anything this Syrian Crisis has exposed the myth of "arming the rebels" which the liberal élite so often advocate. We have Governments for a reason; even if they're corrupt and run by the bad guys.

And even if the Syrian rebels won, and some new Government was installed: What makes them think the new boss is as any different to the old boss? And that's the best case scenario, now imagine the rebels begin to train and recruit more people from the region and start destabilising regional powers with WMD's like Israel/Iran.

We don't want to end up with an Arabic Warring States Period...
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21736 Posts
November 23 2013 12:41 GMT
#3273
On November 23 2013 15:57 Scorpion77 wrote:
If anything this Syrian Crisis has exposed the myth of "arming the rebels" which the liberal élite so often advocate. We have Governments for a reason; even if they're corrupt and run by the bad guys.

And even if the Syrian rebels won, and some new Government was installed: What makes them think the new boss is as any different to the old boss? And that's the best case scenario, now imagine the rebels begin to train and recruit more people from the region and start destabilising regional powers with WMD's like Israel/Iran.

We don't want to end up with an Arabic Warring States Period...

It has been a problem this entire time and was discussed in more detail back when outside intervention was advocated.
This isnt so much the people rising up against there oppressors like Lybia, Most of these rebels are terrorists out for there own gain so there is no real "good" side to help which would lead to a better country.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Disregard
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
China10252 Posts
November 23 2013 16:18 GMT
#3274
On November 23 2013 15:27 iyasq8 wrote:
i didnt see the European fighters, are they in the last video?


First video they are interviewing a Caucasian man, though he seems to speak fluent arabic.
"If I had to take a drug in order to be free, I'm screwed. Freedom exists in the mind, otherwise it doesn't exist."
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-23 17:15:56
November 23 2013 17:14 GMT
#3275
On November 23 2013 21:41 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2013 15:57 Scorpion77 wrote:
If anything this Syrian Crisis has exposed the myth of "arming the rebels" which the liberal élite so often advocate. We have Governments for a reason; even if they're corrupt and run by the bad guys.

And even if the Syrian rebels won, and some new Government was installed: What makes them think the new boss is as any different to the old boss? And that's the best case scenario, now imagine the rebels begin to train and recruit more people from the region and start destabilising regional powers with WMD's like Israel/Iran.

We don't want to end up with an Arabic Warring States Period...

It has been a problem this entire time and was discussed in more detail back when outside intervention was advocated.
This isnt so much the people rising up against there oppressors like Lybia, Most of these rebels are terrorists out for there own gain so there is no real "good" side to help which would lead to a better country.

This did start as at least a partially legitimate uprising where citizens were asking for more control over their own lives. Let it be for several years and we honestly shouldn't be surprised that the resistance flocks to the groups that do get support and money and as a result are successful. There were 'good guys' (or at least, much better than Assad which is a really low threshold) and western foreign policy elites should be kicking themselves in the face for letting this mess happen.
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
November 23 2013 18:16 GMT
#3276
On November 23 2013 15:57 Scorpion77 wrote:
If anything this Syrian Crisis has exposed the myth of "arming the rebels" which the liberal élite so often advocate. We have Governments for a reason; even if they're corrupt and run by the bad guys.

And even if the Syrian rebels won, and some new Government was installed: What makes them think the new boss is as any different to the old boss? And that's the best case scenario, now imagine the rebels begin to train and recruit more people from the region and start destabilising regional powers with WMD's like Israel/Iran.

We don't want to end up with an Arabic Warring States Period...


Intervening in Syria wasn't really a "liberal elite" or even a right thing. People from both sides were calling to assist them. Luckily we dodged that bullet. I'm speaking about America of course not sure what the opinion was with the British.
dude bro.
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6223 Posts
November 23 2013 19:03 GMT
#3277
On November 24 2013 02:14 Derez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2013 21:41 Gorsameth wrote:
On November 23 2013 15:57 Scorpion77 wrote:
If anything this Syrian Crisis has exposed the myth of "arming the rebels" which the liberal élite so often advocate. We have Governments for a reason; even if they're corrupt and run by the bad guys.

And even if the Syrian rebels won, and some new Government was installed: What makes them think the new boss is as any different to the old boss? And that's the best case scenario, now imagine the rebels begin to train and recruit more people from the region and start destabilising regional powers with WMD's like Israel/Iran.

We don't want to end up with an Arabic Warring States Period...

It has been a problem this entire time and was discussed in more detail back when outside intervention was advocated.
This isnt so much the people rising up against there oppressors like Lybia, Most of these rebels are terrorists out for there own gain so there is no real "good" side to help which would lead to a better country.

This did start as at least a partially legitimate uprising where citizens were asking for more control over their own lives. Let it be for several years and we honestly shouldn't be surprised that the resistance flocks to the groups that do get support and money and as a result are successful. There were 'good guys' (or at least, much better than Assad which is a really low threshold) and western foreign policy elites should be kicking themselves in the face for letting this mess happen.

Isn't that what we thought with Lybia as well and it's not like our support to the rebels brought any stability.
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
November 23 2013 20:28 GMT
#3278
On November 24 2013 04:03 RvB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2013 02:14 Derez wrote:
On November 23 2013 21:41 Gorsameth wrote:
On November 23 2013 15:57 Scorpion77 wrote:
If anything this Syrian Crisis has exposed the myth of "arming the rebels" which the liberal élite so often advocate. We have Governments for a reason; even if they're corrupt and run by the bad guys.

And even if the Syrian rebels won, and some new Government was installed: What makes them think the new boss is as any different to the old boss? And that's the best case scenario, now imagine the rebels begin to train and recruit more people from the region and start destabilising regional powers with WMD's like Israel/Iran.

We don't want to end up with an Arabic Warring States Period...

It has been a problem this entire time and was discussed in more detail back when outside intervention was advocated.
This isnt so much the people rising up against there oppressors like Lybia, Most of these rebels are terrorists out for there own gain so there is no real "good" side to help which would lead to a better country.

This did start as at least a partially legitimate uprising where citizens were asking for more control over their own lives. Let it be for several years and we honestly shouldn't be surprised that the resistance flocks to the groups that do get support and money and as a result are successful. There were 'good guys' (or at least, much better than Assad which is a really low threshold) and western foreign policy elites should be kicking themselves in the face for letting this mess happen.

Isn't that what we thought with Lybia as well and it's not like our support to the rebels brought any stability.

Expecting stability instantly after decades of authoritarian rule is naive in the first place, and foreign ministers promising it know that they're lying. Any transition in countries like Syria and Libya will be violent and take time, but revolution and violence are inevitable when you have the majorities rights suppressed in favour of a minority.

Assad has lost all legitimacy and even if he wins the civil war, he'll never be able to effectively rule again and its just a matter of time until the next wave of conflict. Wouldn't it be better to just get it over with and get some kind of transition going, like in Libya?
Scorpion77
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
98 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-23 20:42:21
November 23 2013 20:34 GMT
#3279
On November 24 2013 05:28 Derez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2013 04:03 RvB wrote:
On November 24 2013 02:14 Derez wrote:
On November 23 2013 21:41 Gorsameth wrote:
On November 23 2013 15:57 Scorpion77 wrote:
If anything this Syrian Crisis has exposed the myth of "arming the rebels" which the liberal élite so often advocate. We have Governments for a reason; even if they're corrupt and run by the bad guys.

And even if the Syrian rebels won, and some new Government was installed: What makes them think the new boss is as any different to the old boss? And that's the best case scenario, now imagine the rebels begin to train and recruit more people from the region and start destabilising regional powers with WMD's like Israel/Iran.

We don't want to end up with an Arabic Warring States Period...

It has been a problem this entire time and was discussed in more detail back when outside intervention was advocated.
This isnt so much the people rising up against there oppressors like Lybia, Most of these rebels are terrorists out for there own gain so there is no real "good" side to help which would lead to a better country.

This did start as at least a partially legitimate uprising where citizens were asking for more control over their own lives. Let it be for several years and we honestly shouldn't be surprised that the resistance flocks to the groups that do get support and money and as a result are successful. There were 'good guys' (or at least, much better than Assad which is a really low threshold) and western foreign policy elites should be kicking themselves in the face for letting this mess happen.

Isn't that what we thought with Lybia as well and it's not like our support to the rebels brought any stability.

Expecting stability instantly after decades of authoritarian rule is naive in the first place, and foreign ministers promising it know that they're lying. Any transition in countries like Syria and Libya will be violent and take time, but revolution and violence are inevitable when you have the majorities rights suppressed in favour of a minority.

Assad has lost all legitimacy and even if he wins the civil war, he'll never be able to effectively rule again and its just a matter of time until the next wave of conflict. Wouldn't it be better to just get it over with and get some kind of transition going, like in Libya?

Libya was a disaster. Kofi Annan was on 'This Week'; a latenight British politics talkshow on BBC, talking about how the Mali islamist insurgency was blowback from the Libyan Civil War.

In short, rogue militias/mercenaries who fought in the Libyan Civil War are not giving up their arms or taking a normal civilian job, rather they just cross the border and start trying to overthrow more Governments. The French Socialist President loves this, because it gives him an excuse to meddle with former French colonies and to build political capital by flying in and exploiting the post-colonial complex of the West Africans.

here's the full video for anyone interested
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21079909

Regarding Assad having 'no legitimacy, can't rule again' well he has as much legitimacy as George W. Bush or Comrade Barry or Prince Tonibler... and you can't just get rid of heads of governments all over the world just because you don't like them: that's neoimperialism. We've had enough of the Reagan Doctrine, frankly (which by the way, resulted in the formation of a CIA trained al-Qaeda, how's that working out for the world now?)
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-23 21:17:02
November 23 2013 21:12 GMT
#3280
On November 24 2013 05:34 Scorpion77 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2013 05:28 Derez wrote:
On November 24 2013 04:03 RvB wrote:
On November 24 2013 02:14 Derez wrote:
On November 23 2013 21:41 Gorsameth wrote:
On November 23 2013 15:57 Scorpion77 wrote:
If anything this Syrian Crisis has exposed the myth of "arming the rebels" which the liberal élite so often advocate. We have Governments for a reason; even if they're corrupt and run by the bad guys.

And even if the Syrian rebels won, and some new Government was installed: What makes them think the new boss is as any different to the old boss? And that's the best case scenario, now imagine the rebels begin to train and recruit more people from the region and start destabilising regional powers with WMD's like Israel/Iran.

We don't want to end up with an Arabic Warring States Period...

It has been a problem this entire time and was discussed in more detail back when outside intervention was advocated.
This isnt so much the people rising up against there oppressors like Lybia, Most of these rebels are terrorists out for there own gain so there is no real "good" side to help which would lead to a better country.

This did start as at least a partially legitimate uprising where citizens were asking for more control over their own lives. Let it be for several years and we honestly shouldn't be surprised that the resistance flocks to the groups that do get support and money and as a result are successful. There were 'good guys' (or at least, much better than Assad which is a really low threshold) and western foreign policy elites should be kicking themselves in the face for letting this mess happen.

Isn't that what we thought with Lybia as well and it's not like our support to the rebels brought any stability.

Expecting stability instantly after decades of authoritarian rule is naive in the first place, and foreign ministers promising it know that they're lying. Any transition in countries like Syria and Libya will be violent and take time, but revolution and violence are inevitable when you have the majorities rights suppressed in favour of a minority.

Assad has lost all legitimacy and even if he wins the civil war, he'll never be able to effectively rule again and its just a matter of time until the next wave of conflict. Wouldn't it be better to just get it over with and get some kind of transition going, like in Libya?

Libya was a disaster. Kofi Annan was on 'This Week'; a latenight British politics talkshow on BBC, talking about how the Mali islamist insurgency was blowback from the Libyan Civil War.

In short, rogue militias/mercenaries who fought in the Libyan Civil War are not giving up their arms or taking a normal civilian job, rather they just cross the border and start trying to overthrow more Governments. The French Socialist President loves this, because it gives him an excuse to meddle with former French colonies and to build political capital by flying in and exploiting the post-colonial complex of the West Africans.

here's the full video for anyone interested
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21079909

Regarding Assad having 'no legitimacy, can't rule again' well he has as much legitimacy as George W. Bush or Comrade Barry or Prince Tonibler... and you can't just get rid of heads of governments all over the world just because you don't like them: that's neoimperialism. We've had enough of the Reagan Doctrine, frankly (which by the way, resulted in the formation of a CIA trained al-Qaeda, how's that working out for the world now?)

I don't follow your argument. Libya would have been a disaster either way, intervention or no intervention. I prefer this outcome to Gadaffi murdering his way through everyone he thinks opposed him, further expanding his torture/repression state. There are still a ton of problems in Libya, but they went to the polls for a relatively free election for the first time in 40+ years. It'll take another few decades, or however long, before you have a functioning, peaceful democracy, but at least like this they have a shot at actually developing one.

Yes, the situation in Mali was related to the militias leaving Libya (next to other structural problems in mali itself and the region) but that's just a fact of life of living in a world with transnational non-state actors. If islamists are forced to leave a certain region and relocate to another that's not an inherently bad thing, that's just reality. Mali hasn't gotten any worse in recent months either: they signed a long overdue deal with the tuaregs (who have legitimate claims), rolled back islamist gains, have elected a new president after the coup and are electing a new parliament tomorrow.

You can cry over each death and condemn everything standing on the sidelines or you can recognize that progress doesn't come automatically and usually requires violence in authoritarian nations.

Response to edit: Obama's/Bush's/Tony's legitimacy as leaders of a nation was never in question and is derived from the electoral system, where they (and their parties) can be punished for choices made. The fact that at certain points during their tenure the majority of the public didn't like them doesn't affect their legitimacy. I'm also not advocating neo-imperialism, I'm advocating self-determinism (which a relatively well-funded state military can very effectively suppress). What the middle east needs is less rage against 'the west' and more rage against their own shit leaders. The sooner they're overthrown the better. We could have made a difference in Syria, one or two years ago, but now all the options are terrible.
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