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Crisis in Japan - Page 175

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Thread is about the various issues surrounding Japan in the aftermath of the recent earthquake. Don't bring the shit side of the internet to the thread, and post with the realization that this thread is very important, and very real, to your fellow members.

Do not post speculative and unconfirmed news you saw on TV or anywhere else. Generally the more dramatic it sounds the less likely it's true.
Rus_Brain
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Russian Federation1894 Posts
March 18 2011 05:10 GMT
#3481
Weather (wind) forecast.

Wind changed to oppiste comparing to it was on Monday.

[image loading]

High area (anticyclone) is in Japan itself already.
Assume wind is moving from center to edge of the area and you realise how a potential cloud will move.

Russia, China and both Koreas are covered with Low areas (cyclones) which will work like a vacuum-cleaner for potential radioactive cloud.

The only possible track of a potential cloud is Russia, Chiana, Koreas by the time.
patyrykin.net
Rus_Brain
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Russian Federation1894 Posts
March 18 2011 05:18 GMT
#3482
On March 18 2011 12:19 Yttrasil wrote:
I love these updates you are giving, one of the few sources that actually makes sense is up to date and is concise. Sorry for the off topic but how much do you pay for it, thinking of getting it as my primary news source about the economy and so on, it seems just awesome and is able to explain alot of the things going on in the background and the results of it.

Edit: And also looking around, what's the exact name for it if you would be so kind?

the exact name is Dow Jones Newswire

unfortunately I don't know the price, coz it is part of "cervices" my broker supplies, I just pay for a full package of services
patyrykin.net
Nienordir
Profile Joined October 2010
98 Posts
March 18 2011 05:23 GMT
#3483
On March 18 2011 13:21 Sanctimonius wrote:
Note from Fukushima:
Since this all began the govt here, the Tokyo Power Company had been saying they would concentrate on containment, making sure the reactors were stable, making sure they wouldn't have a meltdown. Anything and everything else was secondary to that, including repairing the electrical grid to the plant, or setting up new pumps capable of dealing with pumping sea water. Now they are using water cannons to cool the plant's reactors, radiation has been dropping consistently. Furthermore they are repairing the electrical grid and trying to get pumps back online. Once these are set up the reactors will be consistently and automatically cooled with water until they are no longer dangerous, which will be after a few weeks of consistent cooling. Simply the fact they are doing this kind of things, they are talking about setting up these pumps and electrical grids, is a sign that things are stable enough to properly cool the reactors.

I'd hardly call restoring power/establishing sustained cooling secondary, as these measures are the only thing that can stabilize the situation since the radiation is to high to enter the reactor buildings.

The cooling operations yesterday using water trucks/helicopters only dropped around 60t of water (50t aimed at #3) in a 2h session (no further cooling operations on that day). But maybe 40t actually entered the building and might have poured into the pool. However these pools are estimated to contain around 2.000t of water and we know that they reached dangerous levels in 5 days, assuming that the rods are only partially exposed, half of the required amount of water is still there and the hydrogen explosions didn't remove water from the pool.

Let's play around with numbers..

(2.000t - 300t) / 5 days = 340t/day

(2.000t - 300t) / 6 days = 283t/day
(2.000t - 400t) / 6 days = 266t/day
(2.000t - 500t) / 6 days = 250t/day

Even in a very optimistic case, were only 100t(16%) of the required estimate of 600t are missing, the pool must be losing around 250t of water per day. That makes roughly 10t per hour so their water spraying operation delayed the worst case dry pool situation by merely 4-5 hours. However further cooling operations won't be executed 'til afternoon today (probably around 12-16 hours after the first operation).

Basically they're gambling with very high stakes if they don't step up the operations (which might be the case, since additional trucks have arrived for today with enough firefighters for longer operations) as they haven't actually increased their 'time buffer' or reduced the radiation in a significant way, because whatever they've sprayed in there must have already been evaporated.

Of course my numbers are based on the estimates since the actual size of the pool and the amount of water that the rods&racks displace were not announced. And we don't know if there is a crack that leaks water in the upper half of the pool or if the hydrogen explosion removed huge amounts of water nor do we know how efficient the operation actually is. (since water might get lost in areas outside of the pool)

Keep in mind that they're only sprayed at #3, so levels at #4 must be dropping, but my point is unless they switch the operation to more than 2h per day. The situation can't improve and they're still slowly losing time (and risk the possibilty of heavily increased local radiation levels) by letting the water levels drop further.

As far as the reduced radiation readings go. They were measured at the west gate with quite a delay (at least the figures we got). So it could be as simple as the wind changing to east, blowing more radiation away from the monitoring post.

And even restoring power&pumps are still no guarantee that those reactors will stabilize as the piping&electronics that are required to make it work might be damaged/destroyed.

Personally I find their hesitation to do things much more concerning than the actual state of the power plants. (at one point in a press conference they even said that they might not be able to continue connecting power if the weather is 'bad' nor do they seem willingly to risk peoples lives) Which makes me question their priorities or if they actually realize how much they're riding on luck, when they don't even had data on the water levels in the pools..
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-18 06:00:32
March 18 2011 05:33 GMT
#3484
On March 18 2011 14:23 Nienordir wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

On March 18 2011 13:21 Sanctimonius wrote:
Note from Fukushima:
Since this all began the govt here, the Tokyo Power Company had been saying they would concentrate on containment, making sure the reactors were stable, making sure they wouldn't have a meltdown. Anything and everything else was secondary to that, including repairing the electrical grid to the plant, or setting up new pumps capable of dealing with pumping sea water. Now they are using water cannons to cool the plant's reactors, radiation has been dropping consistently. Furthermore they are repairing the electrical grid and trying to get pumps back online. Once these are set up the reactors will be consistently and automatically cooled with water until they are no longer dangerous, which will be after a few weeks of consistent cooling. Simply the fact they are doing this kind of things, they are talking about setting up these pumps and electrical grids, is a sign that things are stable enough to properly cool the reactors.

I'd hardly call restoring power/establishing sustained cooling secondary, as these measures are the only thing that can stabilize the situation since the radiation is to high to enter the reactor buildings.

The cooling operations yesterday using water trucks/helicopters only dropped around 60t of water (50t aimed at #3) in a 2h session (no further cooling operations on that day). But maybe 40t actually entered the building and might have poured into the pool. However these pools are estimated to contain around 2.000t of water and we know that they reached dangerous levels in 5 days, assuming that the rods are only partially exposed, half of the required amount of water is still there and the hydrogen explosions didn't remove water from the pool.

Let's play around with numbers..

(2.000t - 300t) / 5 days = 340t/day

(2.000t - 300t) / 6 days = 283t/day
(2.000t - 400t) / 6 days = 266t/day
(2.000t - 500t) / 6 days = 250t/day

Even in a very optimistic case, were only 100t(16%) of the required estimate of 600t are missing, the pool must be losing around 250t of water per day. That makes roughly 10t per hour so their water spraying operation delayed the worst case dry pool situation by merely 4-5 hours. However further cooling operations won't be executed 'til afternoon today (probably around 12-16 hours after the first operation).

Basically they're gambling with very high stakes if they don't step up the operations (which might be the case, since additional trucks have arrived for today with enough firefighters for longer operations) as they haven't actually increased their 'time buffer' or reduced the radiation in a significant way, because whatever they've sprayed in there must have already been evaporated.

Of course my numbers are based on the estimates since the actual size of the pool and the amount of water that the rods&racks displace were not announced. And we don't know if there is a crack that leaks water in the upper half of the pool or if the hydrogen explosion removed huge amounts of water nor do we know how efficient the operation actually is. (since water might get lost in areas outside of the pool)

Keep in mind that they're only sprayed at #3, so levels at #4 must be dropping, but my point is unless they switch the operation to more than 2h per day. The situation can't improve and they're still slowly losing time (and risk the possibilty of heavily increased local radiation levels) by letting the water levels drop further.

As far as the reduced radiation readings go. They were measured at the west gate with quite a delay (at least the figures we got). So it could be as simple as the wind changing to east, blowing more radiation away from the monitoring post.

And even restoring power&pumps are still no guarantee that those reactors will stabilize as the piping&electronics that are required to make it work might be damaged/destroyed.

Personally I find their hesitation to do things much more concerning than the actual state of the power plants. (at one point in a press conference they even said that they might not be able to continue connecting power if the weather is 'bad' nor do they seem willingly to risk peoples lives) Which makes me question their priorities or if they actually realize how much they're riding on luck, when they don't even had data on the water levels in the pools..


you got to keep in mind, that the heating power is decreasing exponentially once the chainreaction isn't going on anymore!
So basicly every second nothing is happening it's going to be easier and less heat.
After 3 days you got muuuuch less heating. I'm checking for a few numbers as I saw some a few days ago (somewhere^^) based on a 30 to 40% degree of efficiency, which should be accurate. I know by heart its a 30% decrease from day 3 to day 7, but I don't know about 1 to 3 :-/
Will edit if I find those.

Edit: Can't find it... wikipedia got to solve the problem:
Time | heat decay in %
10 sec 3,72%
1 min 2,54%
1 hour 1,01%
1 day 0,44%
3 days 0,31%
1 week 0,23%
1 month 0,13%

those numbers are for a long running reactor (it says 11 months ongoing) so they should be to high. You may do the math yourself if you know for how long the reactor was running (<--noob grammar? ) before it was shut down.
[image loading]
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
dump
Profile Joined August 2010
Japan514 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-18 05:56:00
March 18 2011 05:48 GMT
#3485
We got a press release from the Consulate General of Japan in Vancouver expressing concern over the fear mongering:

+ Show Spoiler +


Consulate General of Japan
Vancouver, British Columbia

PRESS RELEASE

March 17, 2011


With respect to the situation at the Japanese nuclear plants caused by the offshore earthquake in the Tohoku region, the government of Japan and the companies concerned have been united in making their best efforts to minimize the damage and effects since this trouble began.

The Consulate General of Japan in Vancouver is concerned that news reports from some media have over-emphasised the risk of exposure to excessive radiation and that those reports may not be completely objective.

As of now, the Government of Japan has issued instructions to the residents to evacuate the area in a 20 kilometre radius around the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant and for residents to sta
No. 1 nuclear plant and for residents to stay indoors within a 20-30 kilometre radius. In the 10 kilometre radius around the Fukushima No. 2 nuclear plant residents have been instructed to evacuate. These instructions were issued based on the judgement of knowledgeable experts in order to ensure adequate safety of the people.

Except for the above mentioned areas, in all other regions including
regions including Tokyo and the surrounding area, the measured numerical value of radiation is very small and will not harm the health of human beings. In Tokyo, from midnight March 16 to 09:00 a.m. on March 17th, the fluctuation in the numerical value of microsievert per hour was between 0.052 and 0.053 and is well within the normal range of 0.028 – 0.079.

The Prime Minister and the Chief Cabin
The Prime Minister and the Chief Cabinet Secretary have given briefings regularly on the exact and latest situation related to the nuclear plants. For quick reference the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MOFA) has a regularly updated dedicated site: http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/incidents/index.html

- 30 -
Contact:
Keith Fedoruk
Rabiator
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany3948 Posts
March 18 2011 06:02 GMT
#3486
On March 18 2011 14:10 Rus_Brain wrote:
High area (anticyclone) is in Japan itself already.
Assume wind is moving from center to edge of the area and you realise how a potential cloud will move.

Russia, China and both Koreas are covered with Low areas (cyclones) which will work like a vacuum-cleaner for potential radioactive cloud.

The only possible track of a potential cloud is Russia, Chiana, Koreas by the time.

If I follow your assumption on how to interpret the picture I would come to a different conclusion. There is an area of low pressure over the north pacific as well and since the centre of the high pressure is southwest of the Fukushima area it should go to the northeast and out to the sea instead of across Japan and onwards towards mainland Asia. A lot of speculation IMO.

From my sailing experience I can only add that there is the "evening calm" close to a body of water where the direction of the wind changes because the land cools down a lot more than the water. Obviously this depends a lot on the temperature of the water which might be warm enough to negate this. Again some more speculation.

I dont think speculating on a potential cloud makes sense because wind travels in many directions according to the height you are looking at and a cloud emitted from the reactors could reach different levels in the atmosphere according to the energy (temperature) it has. For Chernobyl it was a pretty high temperature due to the burning graphite, but a cloud in Japan would need a lot of boiling water and that supply is limited inside these reactors because a major part of it would have evaporated before the worst phase of the chain reaction - the real meltdown and thus the transformation of large parts of the solid radioactive materials into gaseous form - starts. All of this is just educated guesswork ...

Lets just hope the pumps for the cooling systems didnt get damaged by all the water pumped / dumped into the buildings and that Japan will be spared the worst.
If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.
hmsrenown
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada1263 Posts
March 18 2011 06:14 GMT
#3487
On March 18 2011 15:02 Rabiator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2011 14:10 Rus_Brain wrote:
High area (anticyclone) is in Japan itself already.
Assume wind is moving from center to edge of the area and you realise how a potential cloud will move.

Russia, China and both Koreas are covered with Low areas (cyclones) which will work like a vacuum-cleaner for potential radioactive cloud.

The only possible track of a potential cloud is Russia, Chiana, Koreas by the time.

If I follow your assumption on how to interpret the picture I would come to a different conclusion. There is an area of low pressure over the north pacific as well and since the centre of the high pressure is southwest of the Fukushima area it should go to the northeast and out to the sea instead of across Japan and onwards towards mainland Asia. A lot of speculation IMO.

From my sailing experience I can only add that there is the "evening calm" close to a body of water where the direction of the wind changes because the land cools down a lot more than the water. Obviously this depends a lot on the temperature of the water which might be warm enough to negate this. Again some more speculation.

I dont think speculating on a potential cloud makes sense because wind travels in many directions according to the height you are looking at and a cloud emitted from the reactors could reach different levels in the atmosphere according to the energy (temperature) it has. For Chernobyl it was a pretty high temperature due to the burning graphite, but a cloud in Japan would need a lot of boiling water and that supply is limited inside these reactors because a major part of it would have evaporated before the worst phase of the chain reaction - the real meltdown and thus the transformation of large parts of the solid radioactive materials into gaseous form - starts. All of this is just educated guesswork ...

Lets just hope the pumps for the cooling systems didnt get damaged by all the water pumped / dumped into the buildings and that Japan will be spared the worst.

But more info is always better than less, no?

Thanks Rus for weather info! I am using a combo of reuters/bloomberg but the DJ wire posting are great for fellow tlers who doesn't have a news service, hats off to you.
AllFreakingNight
Profile Joined February 2011
United States16 Posts
March 18 2011 06:35 GMT
#3488
Hello, I'm a Japanese American. Go here for the best information.

GodHatesJapan.com

seems like Westboro was beaten to the punch line....
'The human brain is a reality generator, money is irrelevant . You can do anything' - Paul Everest
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
March 18 2011 06:39 GMT
#3489
On March 18 2011 15:35 AllFreakingNight wrote:
Hello, I'm a Japanese American. Go here for the best information.

GodHatesJapan.com

seems like Westboro was beaten to the punch line....

That's actually pretty nice. Cheers for that guy.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
AllFreakingNight
Profile Joined February 2011
United States16 Posts
March 18 2011 06:42 GMT
#3490
Haha my dad comes in and laughs (he's full Japanese) and says "I donated to GodHatesJapan".... I'm like wtf.... oh haha cool dad.
'The human brain is a reality generator, money is irrelevant . You can do anything' - Paul Everest
Sanctimonius
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom861 Posts
March 18 2011 06:43 GMT
#3491
Totally. The reactor at Chernobyl was running pretty much at full capacity, and had no covering reactor. Even then the impact on human health would have been limited if the Soviets had evacuated people and tested food and the ground to limit people ingesting more radioactive particles after the event. Fukushima Daiichi reactors have been shut down, have strong casings and people have been evacuated. The Chief Scientific advisors to the UK government has said that the absolute worst case scenario is a blast and fallout affecting up to 30miles from the plant. Obviously wind may be a factor too, but the levels of radiation seen in the rest of Japan will be minimal, as they are now. Make no mistake, areas have seen a tiny, tiny rise in radiation now. The international panic because of this is absolutely ludicrous - I dread to think what those people who are buying iodine pills in the Midwest, in the rest of Asia, would be doing if they were here. FFS people, calm down, get a bit of information and see that the real crisis is ongoing right now. Everyone is worrying about what may happen (and making up insane ideas about how big that could possibly be) - there are hundreds of thousands who need food, water, shelter. Donate and help these people out.
You live the life you choose.
Sanctimonius
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom861 Posts
March 18 2011 07:06 GMT
#3492
Also I said secondary not because the pumps aren't important, far from it. The pumps are vital to keeping the reactors cool. It's just that the company has been 100% occupied with keeping the reactors from going into meltdown. Now that things a re a little more stable they can look at getting electricity, pumps back online.

It's kinda like a serious injury in a hospital. First comes the triage, where the entire focus is on keeping people stable, keeping them alive, so they can begin recovery. This is the stage we're in now, which we may be beginning to leave. Next comes the recovery, the quiet time where things are still tense but under control and being watched by experts. This will not be over tomorrow, even if everything goes right. This will take a few weeks to solve. Hopefully, the workers at the reactors who are risking their lives have given us the chance to start recovery.
You live the life you choose.
eu.exodus
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
South Africa1186 Posts
March 18 2011 09:50 GMT
#3493
On March 18 2011 15:35 AllFreakingNight wrote:
Hello, I'm a Japanese American. Go here for the best information.

GodHatesJapan.com

seems like Westboro was beaten to the punch line....


lol i nearly started swearing. Good thing i check links first!
6 poll is a good skill toi have
elscuba
Profile Joined July 2008
Japan34 Posts
March 18 2011 10:13 GMT
#3494
A bureau chief of IAEA , Amano is doing press conference now.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/videonews-com-live
hugman
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden4644 Posts
March 18 2011 11:31 GMT
#3495
On March 18 2011 14:10 Rus_Brain wrote:
Weather (wind) forecast.

Wind changed to oppiste comparing to it was on Monday.

[image loading]

High area (anticyclone) is in Japan itself already.
Assume wind is moving from center to edge of the area and you realise how a potential cloud will move.

Russia, China and both Koreas are covered with Low areas (cyclones) which will work like a vacuum-cleaner for potential radioactive cloud.

The only possible track of a potential cloud is Russia, Chiana, Koreas by the time.

I hate weather maps
I can't even find Japan in that image
HolydaKing
Profile Joined February 2010
21254 Posts
March 18 2011 11:41 GMT
#3496
lol @ hugman; and i thought i was the only one who couldn't ^^
elscuba
Profile Joined July 2008
Japan34 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-18 12:23:36
March 18 2011 12:17 GMT
#3497
After Amano, Nuclear safty agency is doing press conference for the foreign press center now.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/videonews-com-live
Rus_Brain
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Russian Federation1894 Posts
March 18 2011 12:49 GMT
#3498
For those who missed, Japan increased nuke rate to 5.
Now Fukusima = 3 Mile Island
patyrykin.net
Sorkoas
Profile Joined May 2010
549 Posts
March 18 2011 13:30 GMT
#3499
Tokyo Evacuation?

http://www.dannychoo.com/post/en/26054/Tokyo Evacuation.html

Doesn't seem like it.
hugman
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden4644 Posts
March 18 2011 13:37 GMT
#3500
On March 18 2011 20:41 HolydaKing wrote:
lol @ hugman; and i thought i was the only one who couldn't ^^

I've done the theory for a private pilot's license which involves looking a lots of maps like that, and I still can't do it :D
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