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Great Military leaders of History? - Page 11

Forum Index > General Forum
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nK)Duke
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany936 Posts
February 15 2011 10:07 GMT
#201
washington was actually the worst general of all time.
DisaFear
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia4074 Posts
February 15 2011 10:13 GMT
#202
I just want to say...
Matrim Cauthon
How devious | http://anartisticanswer.blogspot.com.au/
Jayme
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States5866 Posts
February 15 2011 10:18 GMT
#203
On February 15 2011 18:55 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2011 13:46 ZlaSHeR wrote:
Robert E. Lee over G Dub any day.

Given that Lee has next to nothing, a spread out force and shitty resources and everything to deal with, he was clearly the best general in American history, even if his side lost.

Lee, and Southern generals in general (no pun intended), is hugely overrated and is precisely the reason the South lost. Tactically he might have been fantastic but he had no concept of strategy, which is why the South never had a shot to begin with. It makes a cute story to say the ragtag Southern Generals almost clawed themselves to victory, but truth be told, the North had far more excellent Generals and Grant was a much better Supreme Commander because he understood the big picture.

To put it in SC terms, Grant was like Jaedong while Lee was like a WC3 player, microing his dying units while supply capped at 60 and at 1000/1000.

Show nested quote +
All he had to do was scatter the union army and he would be able to march into Washington and secure victory.
This is not true at all. Winning Gettysburg would've had zero impact on the rest of the war, because the South couldn't move to Washington. It would've been a symbolic victory, cut short by their weakened (non-existant) supply chain and lack of reinforcements. The group that could've moved would've been too small, isolated and exhausted. No chance of taking a capital city.

Not only that, but pushing into the North is exactly the terrible strategy I was speaking of. The South didn't lose simply because of starting conditions (history has told us time and time again that bean counting means absolutely nothing in war), it lost because it tried to push North instead of pursuing a better strategy of holding the West, where the resources were. The underdog doesn't need overwhelming victory to win a war, it simply needs to make it too costly for the more powerful side to continue. The Southern strategy was unable to do that.


Okay I agree with MOST of what you said.

However calling Lee overrated is ridiculous. The guy was a tactical genius that was able to work wonders when he should not have. While his aggressive tactics cost him the war in the end when the actual BATTLES occurred he was an amazing tactician. After winning all the battles he won it's no wonder that he attempted to push into the North. He realized early on that the North would win in a battle of attrition.

I think you undervalue what winning at Gettysburg would have done. Most of the Union was pretty demoralized by this time because Lee kept beating the shit out of them. Generals routinely DECLINED the position of General of the Army because they didn't want to lock horns with Lee. An additional win in NORTHERN territory especially given the numbers involved in Gettysburg may have been a far more damaging loss than can be adequately guessed at this point.

The north had a line of absolutely TERRIBLE generals...McClellan, Burnside, McDowell, and Hooker were all complete trash that were either way too passive or just let Lee run around them like they were morons.

Grant and Sherman? They saw the bigger picture, I will give you that. Grant's bigger picture view is a big reason why Lee was never able to get a good foothold from then on.
Python is garbage, number 1 advocate of getting rid of it.
icyF
Profile Joined June 2008
Finland305 Posts
February 15 2011 10:20 GMT
#204
At first I was not gonna post anything, but seeming as more and more people bring up the heroes of their own countries, I shall as well.

Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim was the Commander-in-Chief of Finland's Defence Forces, Marshal of Finland and a politician. He was Regent of Finland and the sixth President of Finland.

[image loading]
chenchen
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1136 Posts
February 15 2011 10:23 GMT
#205
Do Americans really think that Washington was a good general, even the greatest of all time?
powerade = dragoon blood
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 10:45:17
February 15 2011 10:26 GMT
#206
Tactics don't win wars. The North would not have won a war of attrition, that is exactly the point. Look at the previous two American wars. The side that was outnumbered and ridiculously behind in technology and equipment still managed to win or force a draw, because it was too costly for the British to continue. That was never in the realm of possibility for the South because they pushed north. Honestly, Lee should've given up on Richmond. He probably couldn't because of political and sentimental reasons, but strategically the south was one of their least valuable positions.

It didn't matter that Lee won battles, he picked the wrong battles to fight and had very few decisive victories. The Generals you point out weren't good, but they wasted Lee's time and distracted him from the rest of the war.

I'll buy the morale argument, but there was still no way Lee was taking Washington.

Lee's actions at Gettysburg were similar to Grant's at Cold Harbor, except Grant's was still less of a blunder. Why? Because the North could still win the war with 5:3 losses.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
February 15 2011 10:28 GMT
#207
On February 15 2011 19:23 chenchen wrote:
Do Americans really think that Washington was a good general, even the greatest of all time?

He was a great leader, but not a very good general. He's probably most revered for turning down the position of military king, a role most people expected him to assume.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Wesso
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands1245 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 10:31:32
February 15 2011 10:30 GMT
#208
On February 15 2011 13:56 Dalguno wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2011 13:55 Kimaker wrote:
Oh, all joking aside:

Ender Wiggin


Probably the best book I've ever read in my life. But truly, Bean would have been better. No matter what anyone says.


You need to read Ender's Shadow, it's Ender's Game from the perspective of Bean. It also shows why you are wrong
vyyye
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden3917 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 10:34:54
February 15 2011 10:33 GMT
#209
On February 15 2011 19:23 chenchen wrote:
Do Americans really think that Washington was a good general, even the greatest of all time?

Similar to "What's the best (insert sport here) team?", people aren't going to answer the question, but they will tell you who is their favourite.

That said I'm not sure how anyone could hold a candle to Napoleon or Alexander. While some generals might have been better tacticians these guys were conquerors as well as generals.

Arguably a lot of Alexander's success was because of his fathers reforms of the Macedonian army, though Alexander's success can't be disputed. Hell, he managed to take Afghanistan in a time when there weren't gunships nor air support, fighting against natives who knew the mountains. That's a feat in itself.

The fact that standard Macedonian tactics were completely useless in the terrain is another thing, a 21ft (was it 18?) sarissa isn't all too useful without a phalanx formation to use it in, and phalanxes are obviously not ideal for mountain combat. Ditto for the Macedonian cavalry, they were of limited use.

Oh and he also conquered everything from Greece to India, a slightly non-trivial feat.
Fraidnot
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States824 Posts
February 15 2011 10:36 GMT
#210
On February 15 2011 19:28 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2011 19:23 chenchen wrote:
Do Americans really think that Washington was a good general, even the greatest of all time?

He was a great leader, but not a very good general. He's probably most revered for turning down the position of military king, a role most people expected him to assume.

Also, sort of dick. I mean who launches a surprise attack on Christmas of all days?
vyyye
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden3917 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 10:38:15
February 15 2011 10:37 GMT
#211
On February 15 2011 19:36 Fraidnot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2011 19:28 Jibba wrote:
On February 15 2011 19:23 chenchen wrote:
Do Americans really think that Washington was a good general, even the greatest of all time?

He was a great leader, but not a very good general. He's probably most revered for turning down the position of military king, a role most people expected him to assume.

Also, sort of dick. I mean who launches a surprise attack on Christmas of all days?

Americans.. no respect for tradition. Pfft.


+ Show Spoiler +
A joke
Tchado
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Jordan1831 Posts
February 15 2011 10:38 GMT
#212
All of these leaders were good , but nobody and i mean nobody can trump the muslim general Khalid Bin Al-Waleed , his tactics and way of thinking are taught in military schools 'till this day , they were so unique and bold , I'd say he is the best general of all time .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_ibn_al-Walid
VATO_Gandair
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States232 Posts
February 15 2011 10:41 GMT
#213
Subutai by far is the best, he's mentioned in two articles here and here

His wiki entry is pretty nuts too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subutai

This guy made war happen and was the reason Ghengis Khan was so successful. Subutai's methods were far ahead of their time and paid off in every way.


I like the purple bags of skittles.
Baibars
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany29 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 10:49:06
February 15 2011 10:42 GMT
#214
Erich von Manstein

he came from a family with a long militaristic history a was grown up in that tradition.

He was no nazi, but a patriotic soldier who did his best to serve his country. He was one of the heads behind the "Fall Gelb" operational plannings the execution of which defeated france and the low countries in just a few weeks. He was friends with General Guderian, who also was involved in the planning of "Fall Gelb", but also is considered to be the first Commander in field, who ever used advanced tank tactics, in stead of only using them as a support unit for infantry centric assaults.

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


After beeing asked to take part in the attempt to kill Hitler, initiated by several german officers, he denied to be a part of the plan and got kinda known for the expression: "Prussian Field Marshals do not mutiny", but he didn't do anything to hinder them to go to work on their plans.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_Manstein
You will notice, my postcount is quite low. That is because I'm a new community member. I started playing when SC2 came out, so please don't judge me too hard on that. I just try to be part of it. 2500 ish Diamond Protoss
Jswizzy
Profile Joined March 2010
United States791 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 10:46:37
February 15 2011 10:46 GMT
#215
On February 15 2011 19:37 vyyye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2011 19:36 Fraidnot wrote:
On February 15 2011 19:28 Jibba wrote:
On February 15 2011 19:23 chenchen wrote:
Do Americans really think that Washington was a good general, even the greatest of all time?

He was a great leader, but not a very good general. He's probably most revered for turning down the position of military king, a role most people expected him to assume.

Also, sort of dick. I mean who launches a surprise attack on Christmas of all days?

Americans.. no respect for tradition. Pfft.


+ Show Spoiler +
A joke

A deist would
I always try to give a sensitive, reasoned answer. This is usually awkward, time consuming and pointless.
vol_
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia1608 Posts
February 15 2011 10:49 GMT
#216
Lim Yo Hwan
Jaedong gives me a deep resonance.
Pholon
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Netherlands6142 Posts
February 15 2011 10:53 GMT
#217
Haven't seen general John Sedgwick yet. His last words were "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist-"

yeap.
Moderator@TLPholon // "I need a third hand to facepalm right now"
Bellygareth
Profile Joined October 2010
France512 Posts
February 15 2011 11:00 GMT
#218
In order of date:

- Sun Tzu
- Themistocles
- Alexander the Great
- Demetrius of Bactria
- Hannibal / Scipio Africanus
- Vercingetorix / Julius Caesar
- Attila
- Charles Martel
- Charlemagne
- William the conqueror
- Bertrand du Guesclin
- Timur
- Vlad III the impaler
- Suleiman the Magnificent
- Tokugawa Ieyasu
- Maurice comte de Saxe
- Admiral Nelson / Napoleon Bonaparte
- Pancho Villa

### Modern age###
- none listed : too much work
gully
Profile Joined July 2010
13 Posts
February 15 2011 11:01 GMT
#219
Yi Sun-sin

other than that def. ender wiggin.
TALegion
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1187 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 11:12:13
February 15 2011 11:11 GMT
#220
Ghengis Khan


On February 15 2011 19:07 nK)Duke wrote:
washington was actually the worst general of all time.

QFT.
He was godawful. He just lucky over and over.
A person willing to die for a cause is a hero. A person willing to kill for a cause is a madman
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