I decided to post this here because it isn't just about SC, but man, SC is as bad about it as any game (maybe even more so than WoW). Why does everyone hate noobs so much? This isn't a rant, I generally would like to hear from people as to why they think that noob-thumping has become so popular, and whether or not it's justified.
I get that sometimes it's frustrating to have to deal with people who don't know as much as you. I also get that some people like to feel superior via condescension. And, of course, there is the occassional noob that knows very little but thinks they have it all figured out. But...
Everyone had to be new at some point. Sometimes, on the TL forums, I'll see a post with someone being like "how should I counter this army?" And a few people will actually be helpful while many others essentially say "you should suck less." I have this experience with other games...if I play a FPS that I've never played before with certain people, they'll totally be either rude or impatient with how little I knew about the toasted-chicken gun, or whatever particular quirks the game has.
Why do you think that the gaming community has taken on such a noob resentful attitude? Do you think that other things (aka., sports, art, etc.) have as frequent of arrogance? And, what other activities have you done where people have treated you with hostility for a lack of knowledge?
I would say it's because gamers tend to be somewhat elitist, and it fuels their ego to demean those less skilled than themselves. Not everybody, of course, but that's definitely a reason.
On December 01 2010 04:15 Aeres wrote: I would say it's because gamers tend to be somewhat elitist, and it fuels their ego to demean those less skilled than themselves. Not everybody, of course, but that's definitely a reason.
Exactly this, everyone(for the most part) wants to believe that they are better then others. In my opinion, it accounts for all the hostility, etc.
In a way, I figured most everything out myself when it comes to games by doing my own reading and practice. So I don't really see how noobs are noobs....I mean I may be a noob for a short period of time while still learning but that period has never lasted long at all. Like HoN, I knew my shit pretty good after a few weeks, I still messed up at times and the inevitable team fails were pretty bad, but I wasn't dumb.
I guess I sorta lump "stupid" and "bad at video games" in the same spot. I don't like stupid people >.<
The problem with newbies opening threads is that they usually put very little effort in the OPs and dont follow the strategy guidelines. Just look at the percentage of how many of those threads have a replay included. Also it's often more of a rant about how SC2 is imba then someone just looking for help.
Comments like "you should suck less" are however not accepted here either and I'd be surprised if someone posted that and didn't get temp banned for it.
Just SC2- related there could also be the problem of the new ladder system and how everybody thinks he is amazing because he is a 2000 diamond player.
Also, it's the internet and these games are competitive -> people become more aggressive than they ever would if they met that person in real life
There are two types of noobs, those who listen and those who don't, its the latter the majority of people hate because they refuse to improve and think they know everything there is to know.
On December 01 2010 04:15 Aeres wrote: I would say it's because gamers tend to be somewhat elitist, and it fuels their ego to demean those less skilled than themselves. Not everybody, of course, but that's definitely a reason.
Exactly this, everyone(for the most part) wants to believe that they are better then others. In my opinion, it accounts for all the hostility, etc.
You are not accounting anonymity - Alot of sad nerds likes to pretend they're badasses and are doing so through the game because they can play that role.. A shrink could probably write a ton of papers about nerds with skizo-like behavior when they are online.. Only, they're not because again.. No one knows who they are
On December 01 2010 04:20 7mk wrote: The problem with newbies opening threads is that they usually put very little effort in the OPs and dont follow the strategy guidelines. Just look at the percentage of how many of those threads have a replay included. Also it's often more of a rant about how SC2 is imba then someone just looking for help.
Comments like "you should suck less" are however not accepted here either and I'd be surprised if someone posted that and didn't get temp banned for it.
They usually don't literally say, "you should suck less," but sometimes they'll remark about a players skill when it isn't appropriate. For example, a person may ask, "what units should I have built to counter void rays," and someone will respond only with things like, "you should have better macro." Well, DUH, you should always have better macro, and the guy didn't really address the question.
Noobs like me tend to be very arrogant and think that there way is best. They don't understand that there are people better then them. This is especially true for StarCraft, especially when you try to explain to someone why this doesn't work and they just sit back there and don't care for what you say.
Often noobs are loud mouths, again especially in StarCraft, when you beat a 'noob' they always come back and bad mouth you just because what they been doing has been so easily beaten.
So people don't like noobs because they are arrogant and they are all talk.
I have no problems with people that are new to the game. But people that are new to TL and have not lurked a while and read the commandments are kinda annoying. Oh and ofcourse the "know it all" noobs as previous people stated.
Prime example of annoying noobs was a guy posting a thread asking for help. I gave advice and he rejected them due to lack of knowledge. I wrote an explenation to my point but since he apparently stopped reading his thread it didnt help much.
Another funny one is the people claiming that every attack before 10min is a cheese for some reason.
The majority of new members here are awesome and great but unfortunately the idiots always stand out.
First of all, people don't hate newbs. Nobody hates people because they are bad at the game, especially not the ones at the top. I am not denying that many people, including myself, can get frustrated by dealing with stubborn bad players. But hate is the wrong word.
On December 01 2010 04:13 sparkyk24 wrote: And, of course, there is the occassional noob that knows very little but thinks they have it all figured out. But...
And here you already have figured out yourself where this frustration mentioned above comes from. It's the people that don't have a clue but feel the need to lecture that generate this kind of hostility you are describing.
This, combined with the tradition here many of TL's veterans know and miss lately, may result in rather harsh wording towards those people.
That being said, if you see people unwarrantably "hating" on newbs, report them to a moderator. This is not tolerated around here.
On December 01 2010 04:20 7mk wrote: The problem with newbies opening threads is that they usually put very little effort in the OPs and dont follow the strategy guidelines. Just look at the percentage of how many of those threads have a replay included. Also it's often more of a rant about how SC2 is imba then someone just looking for help.
Comments like "you should suck less" are however not accepted here either and I'd be surprised if someone posted that and didn't get temp banned for it.
They usually don't literally say, "you should suck less," but sometimes they'll remark about a players skill when it isn't appropriate. For example, a person may ask, "what units should I have built to counter void rays," and someone will respond only with things like, "you should have better macro." Well, DUH, you should always have better macro, and the guy didn't really address the question.
Mh yea that's true unfortunately
you could blame the SC2 ranking system, where everyone thinks he's the shit since he's 2000 diamond ranking, when in reality that takes less effort than getting C lvl on iccup. But it's a competitive game, it's always about being better than your opponent, so I guess that bit of pride sometimes fades over to the forums too. And like I edited into that post you quoted, it's the internet and people tend to be more aggressive etc. than if they met a person in real life. If you meet idra in real life, he isn't constantly gonna go tell you to fuck yourself either.
Also with sc2 there was a huge influx of people, some of them might be right in their puberty, having some issues with their daddy and mom, and decide to let that out on internet strangers.
On December 01 2010 04:14 Tien wrote: No one hates noobs.
People hate noobs that think they know everything.
SC2 brought an army of them here.
Yep this is 200% true. Noobs willing to learn and listen are usually welcomes with open arms. Then there are noobs who don't realize they are noobs and think they are the shit. When you try to give them advice they argue with you. People don't like when their time is wasted.
But there will always be the few self righteous assholes who refuse to help anyone anywhere.
On December 01 2010 04:20 7mk wrote: The problem with newbies opening threads is that they usually put very little effort in the OPs and dont follow the strategy guidelines. Just look at the percentage of how many of those threads have a replay included. Also it's often more of a rant about how SC2 is imba then someone just looking for help.
Comments like "you should suck less" are however not accepted here either and I'd be surprised if someone posted that and didn't get temp banned for it.
They usually don't literally say, "you should suck less," but sometimes they'll remark about a players skill when it isn't appropriate. For example, a person may ask, "what units should I have built to counter void rays," and someone will respond only with things like, "you should have better macro." Well, DUH, you should always have better macro, and the guy didn't really address the question.
For 99% of threads "you should suck less" rephrased is the best answer. At some point, noobs asking "how do i counter ________" need to realize that Starcraft is NOT about finding the magical solution to win. It's about playing better than your opponent, which for the lower leagues does mean "you should have better macro". Or scouting, in the case of void rays. As for what units you should make to beat void rays... well you should make something that shoots air, DUH. The simple truth is, unless the game is horribly imbalanced, "sucking less" is the best "counter" to whatever you're losing to.
On December 01 2010 04:20 7mk wrote: The problem with newbies opening threads is that they usually put very little effort in the OPs and dont follow the strategy guidelines. Just look at the percentage of how many of those threads have a replay included. Also it's often more of a rant about how SC2 is imba then someone just looking for help.
Comments like "you should suck less" are however not accepted here either and I'd be surprised if someone posted that and didn't get temp banned for it.
They usually don't literally say, "you should suck less," but sometimes they'll remark about a players skill when it isn't appropriate. For example, a person may ask, "what units should I have built to counter void rays," and someone will respond only with things like, "you should have better macro." Well, DUH, you should always have better macro, and the guy didn't really address the question.
The point is of course that the new player shouldn't even worry about what units counter what when they don't even have the very basics of macro down.
Now if all someone says is "macro better" then of course that advice isn't very good but if they embellish on the macro better point then I don't see what's wrong with that.
Nobody dislikes noobs. Obviously everyone is a noob at some point. The difference is that most people actually make a conscious effort to improve instead of running to the SC2 strategy forums and creating a thread with little content, no replay and expect to have everyone spell out the obvious for them.
Especially in custom games, where you really can't find out how the game works before you played it. Just a few hours ago I tried a new custom game and it wasn't long before the usual "gtfo noob" or "plz leave idiot"
The best thing about SC2 is in-game, it's all down to you (1v1). When I tried to get into HoN and QL after quitting WoW, all I would get is 'teal leave' or 'leave tdm, quit browser'. I really liked those games but never even got a through a noob-labeled game without some sort of abuse. In the end, even though I wanted to get good at those games, it's hard to spend your precious free time being abused.
The problem is often that newer players complain about things, acting as if their voice is equal to that of seasoned veterans and professionals, when they really lack understanding of what it is that they are complaining about. This causes the veterans to resent them, because their voices are just shouting nonsense, and some people are buying it.
It makes veterans nervous as well-- There will always be a larger number of unskilled players than skilled players, and skilled players worry the voices of unskilled players will cause changes to the game that are unwarranted. That leads to a disliking, or, sometimes, "hatred" of newer players.
On forums, "Noob bashers" and "noobs" are equally annoying. For the most part, I don't know any noob basher in any gaming community that was actually upper tier, tournament-placing, etc. Instead of spending time getting better they just trash on other people and theorycraft / theory fight on the internet all day.
Noobs are the ones that seemingly don't want to learn anything themselves and want everything spoonfed to them (or worse, even though you're a superior player, they won't listen). They jump into situations that they have no business being in. It's very frustrating to have one on your team, because the team's success usually requires individual skill across the board.
Because of that, everyone's extra sensitive now and there's a lot of pre-emptive bashing. I remember one of my friends having questions about Ken in SF4 and posting them on SRK, he got trashed. Now he's probably one of (if not the) the best Kens in the US. People want to talk about how un-nooby they are, which is unnecessary and invites even more bashing.
In sports you hardly see beginners play with average players because the embarrassment is just too much, that's what happens when you get into real life. It's not without its scrubs (oh, the stories I can tell while playing basketball) but generally it doesn't happen. You get dunked on, you're probably be laughed off. In a game, you get wiped out 0-20... whatever, join a new server, play another game, turn off the computer, nothing's changed. Since there's a ton of people playing that sport, you feel that if you bash someone else, there's someone else out there that is more skilled than you and would probably just embarrass yourself.
It is not because the noobs think they know so much, but since the "pros" think they are so smart. There are a lot of them here at TL.net. They think they are so much better than eveyone else that they look down and talk trash about others.
TL.net and almost any other community followes the Jante Law. They all think they are special and TL.net is not that diffrent, as the general concept here is that they are so much more special and better than everyone else, which is not true. + Show Spoiler +
Don't think you're anything special. Don't think you're as much as us. Don't think you're wiser than us. Don't convince yourself that you're better than us. Don't think you know more than us. Don't think you are more than us. Don't think you are good at anything. Don't laugh at us. Don't think anyone cares about you. Don't think you can teach us anything.
People don't like noobs because they got no respect. If you got respect you ain't a noob. You are just new to the game, (or perpetually terrible like I am).
On December 01 2010 04:55 Neivler wrote: It is not because the noobs think they know so much, but since the "pros" think they are so smart. There are a lot of them here at TL.net. They think they are so much better than eveyone else that they look down and talk trash about others.
TL.net and almost any other community followes the Jante Law. They all think they are special and TL.net is not that diffrent, as the general concept here is that they are so much more special and better than everyone else, which is not true. + Show Spoiler +
Don't think you're anything special. Don't think you're as much as us. Don't think you're wiser than us. Don't convince yourself that you're better than us. Don't think you know more than us. Don't think you are more than us. Don't think you are good at anything. Don't laugh at us. Don't think anyone cares about you. Don't think you can teach us anything.
There's a difference between a noob and someone who may have a disorder. I don't mean to be offensive when I say that, I just can't think of any other way to put it.
Mechanically, WoW is one of the easiest games on the planet. Do your spell rotation, watch a life bar, move here, move there. The challenge is weeding out all the people who lack basic motor skills and/or the ability to comprehend simple directions.
Example, Thaddius in Naxx was an infamous pug boss because kids couldn't tell the difference between a positive sign (+) and a negative sign (-). That's all the fight was. You see a sign, and you move accordingly. Rinse and repeat. Now some here may think I'm exaggerating. "hold the phone holdthephone! you're telling me people don't know the difference between a positive and a negative sign? that's a bit far fetched!"
You have no idea the extent of the stupidity that plagues WoW. I could drop a logical human being into that boss fight and he'd be able to get it right on his first try -- having never played the game before. I've honestly thought of writing a book on this shit. It's completely eye-opening.
Strangely enough, some the worst players out there are the ones who play 60 hours a week. You can run a top guild in less than 15.
First of all, I don't know the community super deeply. In fact, one might consider me a noob, but from what I've seen on this forum and in the starcraft community as a whole, people are way more nice and polite compared to what I've seen in many other games. This is actually one aspect of the game itself that I really like, and this thread would in my opinion probably be better suited in some other game's forum site. It feels like the community is overall more mature and intelligent, which is reflected in its friendlyness.
Now, I don't suggest that this community or other games' communities can't or shouldn't improve on this point, because there definitely exists a lot of bad manners, even in this community. I feel, however, that this problem will, unfortunately, always exist as the internet works as it does. The anonymity that it gives has the effect of making people behave in a different way than they would in real life since, and I think this is a very natural thing to do. Everyone has of course seen the type of insulting comments that is all over youtube, blogs or and other internet locations, and I think this type of behaviour is not at all related to gaming in any case, but rather just a way to get rid of personal aggressions in a way that is completely anonymous and when doing this, you don't feel the same way as you would when talking to another human beings face, but rather to a random username who you will never ever meet, and who will never ever affect your life in any way.
I think it's good that you brought up this issue. The only thing we can do about it however is to just ignore peoople who behave in an immature way and to behave in a friendly way ourselves so we can spread warmth throughout the internet and everybody will be a bit happier.
This forum is full of starcraft veterans, there are people that have been playing the game for 12 years now. They get easily offended when someone with no experience comes thinking they know it all. I played broodwar for 2 years before it was replaced by sc2, I only got to D+ in iccup. Even I get offended when someone who's experience is sc2 since launch comes telling me how to play.
lack of humility and basic respect on both sides. basically, the natural state of human beings. why does anyone hate anyone else? i don't understand this thread.
I tought by now people would have stopped confusing newbie and noob -_-
BTW i think it has a lot to do with the fact that esport are pretty 1v1 focused whereas regular sport are mostly team based so you cant really say you PWNED someone when in fact it was the whole team. And even if you beat someone in 1v1 like in a basket, you can still be a WAY worse player than the one you just beat simply because theres A LOT more involved in a real match.
I've ran into a few players in customs with ZERO games played, and I was their first online game. After the game, I always stop and tell them the basics about macro, worker production, expansions, supply, etc.. It's amazing how some simple principles can drastically improve somebodies gameplay. The only thing that bothers me about noobs is when they start complaining about balance, or blaming their losses on unit X from race Y.
Example, Thaddius in Naxx was an infamous pug boss because kids couldn't tell the difference between a positive sign (+) and a negative sign (-). That's all the fight was. You see a sign, and you move accordingly. Rinse and repeat. Now some here may think I'm exaggerating. "hold the phone holdthephone! you're telling me people don't know the difference between a positive and a negative sign? that's a bit far fetched!"
In defense of the good players who die on that fight, it can get exceedingly exhausting trying to get it right every single time when your group keeps wiping. It is not hard to mess up when you're getting very bored of it. I myself have fallen victim of boredom deaths on that fight on multiple occasions.
On December 01 2010 04:14 Tien wrote: No one hates noobs.
People hate noobs that think they know everything.
SC2 brought an army of them here.
This person speaks truth. I have played SC:BW since the start, but I am still a noob since I had too many distractions to become "pro". I joined TL forums for a year? now, and I see alot like me. And to many of my kind act all knowing, but actually spewing creep
great topic i was thinking about the same for a while : )
1. noob = newbie. A lot of ppl even dont know what it is and use it every situation like you didnt something wrong you are nub
2. in WoW its normal that ppl get mad when they get nubz into the pug. specially in this times when its so hard to know who is good and who is bad player cause everyone can easily get epic gear and than in raid its just waste of time.
3. in FPS. like CS or CoD. Didnt they said to you nub when you owned em ? its funny cause this happened to me so often. we are playing CW we are winning but we are noobs. for some ppl noob = fucker.
4. In DotA games. = everyone is noob. Do they even type GLHF, GG or something ? its land of ultra killerz without past. made for owning nubzlordz. there are BMs in every game. its sad... really.
5. Yes everyone was once new in some point. We should let noobs play with noobs and pros play with pros. and if you dont like BM in games as i do just dont play team games : /
Example, Thaddius in Naxx was an infamous pug boss because kids couldn't tell the difference between a positive sign (+) and a negative sign (-). That's all the fight was. You see a sign, and you move accordingly. Rinse and repeat. Now some here may think I'm exaggerating. "hold the phone holdthephone! you're telling me people don't know the difference between a positive and a negative sign? that's a bit far fetched!"
In defense of the good players who die on that fight, it can get exceedingly exhausting trying to get it right every single time when your group keeps wiping. It is not hard to mess up when you're getting very bored of it. I myself have fallen victim of boredom deaths on that fight on multiple occasions.
everyone has their moments, but some people literally can't understand or follow directions. they ruin raids, they ruin loot systems, they ruin the fun of the entire game.
There are many people on the internet eager to please the ignorant "noob," willing to look stuff up for hours just to be helpful. TL does not like propagating this concept, that's why it has such an amazing encyclopedia of Starcraft (Liquipedia, up at the top of the page) and strict rules about people asking questions without providing any content or initiating an intelligent discussion. People don't hate new players (in general), they hate lazy new players that think everything should be provided to them when there are TONS of resources out there, tutorial videos, guides, coaching, etc. It's akin to 'give a man a fish, he eats for a day; teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime.'
I think this apparent 'hate' of noobs isn't really such a bad thing, it is more or less some kind of masquerade act put on by most of the community, but it acts as a motivation for those considered as 'noobs 'to strive to become better and more knowledgeable, so they feel less despised by the 'rest' of the community!
However i think, and it should reflect even more so at live events, that anyone with an interest in the game, whatever their degree of proficiency at it may be, is not someone to bash, but really a potential pal to hang out and have fun with irl !
ps: i place myself in the noob players pool ofc ^^
also this was a win
On December 01 2010 05:12 VIB wrote: Actually we love noobs.
I don't think people really "hate" them. But sometimes it can really be frustrasting to have noob in your team. In halo 3 you can't level up without winning games and you just win games with a good team. And in dota it's exactly the same just that the game is sooo much harder to get in to. That way you get even worser noobs and then the flame war begins....
It's not that gamers hate noobs, its just that gamers are in general extremely competative peope who look down upon bad players. And to be honest, I think sc2 is is very noob friendly game compared with WoW or shooters. There are tons of people who love to help noobs out a bit and the league system allows noobish players to play vs other noobs.
Not this community specifically, but in life in general, from time to time you run into small people who feel the need to put others around them down whenever they achieve something.
After all, your time spent playing video games probably won't make you a whole lot of money, won't necessarily make you smarter or healthier, and only in certain circles would it make you popular with the ladies. So aside from keeping your hand-eye coordination sharp, it has to count for something, right?
Some people just play to have fun with it, while others seek to be rewarded for their time. The ability to feel superior, and at times, act superior is one of those psychological rewards. This is especially true in the gaming world where many teenagers abound and not all of them have reached full emotional maturity by the time they start engaging in online community activities.
All that said, I really don't see that as a vibe here at TL.net. When I first started watching pro-Starcraft, the website SC2GG.com had just gotten off the ground. I participated there almost exclusively, assuming TL was more "elitist" just because of how knowledgeable everyone was. I don't know if things have changed here since then but I'm guessing I just needed to take the time to really understand how dynamic and overall well-mannered the community is.
Because people who post "omg roaches kill my zealots what do i do" or "collosus is impossible to beat plz help" are wasting everyone's time.
The answers to nooby questions are easily found through the search function or google or any other number of resources, and to use the forum to voice these inane questions is terrible for the forum and community.
I do hate noobs when they are on my team, which is why I now play SC2 instead of DotA and LoL. I'm not sure why anybody would hate noobs in a 1v1 type of game; the kind of stuff you're talking about is just kids trying to feel important, and it's not at all restricted to the gamer community. See: gangsters, hipsters, art snobs, music snobs, jocks...yeah, pretty much everybody.
First of all, I don't know the community super deeply. In fact, one might consider me a noob, but from what I've seen on this forum and in the starcraft community as a whole, people are way more nice and polite compared to what I've seen in many other games. This is actually one aspect of the game itself that I really like, and this thread would in my opinion probably be better suited in some other game's forum site. It feels like the community is overall more mature and intelligent, which is reflected in its friendlyness.
Now, I don't suggest that this community or other games' communities can't or shouldn't improve on this point, because there definitely exists a lot of bad manners, even in this community. I feel, however, that this problem will, unfortunately, always exist as the internet works as it does. The anonymity that it gives has the effect of making people behave in a different way than they would in real life since, and I think this is a very natural thing to do. Everyone has of course seen the type of insulting comments that is all over youtube, blogs or and other internet locations, and I think this type of behaviour is not at all related to gaming in any case, but rather just a way to get rid of personal aggressions in a way that is completely anonymous and when doing this, you don't feel the same way as you would when talking to another human beings face, but rather to a random username who you will never ever meet, and who will never ever affect your life in any way.
I think it's good that you brought up this issue. The only thing we can do about it however is to just ignore peoople who behave in an immature way and to behave in a friendly way ourselves so we can spread warmth throughout the internet and everybody will be a bit happier.
:D
I've experienced this as well and to me it seems like most people in the StarCraft community are starting to tolerate noobs a lot more. The most common problem in the interaction between a more experienced player and a noob is probably the experienced one trying to offer some advice while the noob feels patronized and responds by flaming. The experienced player that thought he was nice by giving some tips gets pissed and flames back. But if both are acting polite it can result in a really good and constructive discussion. I've experienced this a lot of times myself being at both ends of the equation.
If I compare the atmosphere of the StarCraft community with for example the HoN community though I really get to appreciate that most people you encounter in SCII aren't flamers. I played quite a bit of HoN before the release of SCII and got used to just entirely ignoring the constant presence of flamers regardless of skill level. In SCII that I very rarely come across that kind of flaming/BM. So just the other week I played a couple of games of HoN and realized the enormous difference in attitude between the both communities. The HoN community is generally very aggressive and a lot of players really feel a need to prove their skill and greatness while the SC community is more laid back.
Anyway it probably all comes down to pride, newer players should try to not be offended when someone points out flaws in their play and more experienced ones have to try to not be schmuck about it. Respect one another and we shall have gaming peace ^_^
love noobs. I make funny strategies when I meet them in ladder occasionally . I deliberately give up a base so that they think they are winning then roflstomp them by something silly. I know its bad
Blizzard's ladder system gave every retard an unwarranted sense of self-importance because they managed to reach 2k diamond so now we have strategy discussions filled with know-it-all's thinking they are in the 99th percentile when in reality most of them are mediocre at best.
its the freshman-senior paradox. such thing will exist everywhere. only those who are ignorant, not grasping the idea of "everyone used to be a noob" will tend to bash on noobs, when usually they're noobs themselves.
I hate scrubs not noobs. If you're new/bad and want to improve I have no problem and will give you a ton of respect. If you're new/bad and think you're godlike then I'm going to treat you like garbage, because that's what you really are.
On December 01 2010 06:26 Piste wrote: I never seen anyone hating noobs while playing bw :O
I hate noobs when they're on my team, and ten minutes into the game, they've built nothing but cannons.
Other than that, I'm fine with them, unless they act like they're the shit and they know everything, but that's not noob-specific. I think that's just a general trait that people tend to dislike.
I hate to just post an old image, but I feel this explains it very, very well.
It's not problem asking for help and putting effort in. making a thread going "PvT, impossible to win?" and then posts a replay of his 1000 rating diamond play and the rest of his thread divulges into how its impossible for protoss to win and how terran cunters his every move.
On December 01 2010 04:40 iamke55 wrote: For 99% of threads "you should suck less" rephrased is the best answer. At some point, noobs asking "how do i counter ________" need to realize that Starcraft is NOT about finding the magical solution to win. It's about playing better than your opponent, which for the lower leagues does mean "you should have better macro". Or scouting, in the case of void rays. As for what units you should make to beat void rays... well you should make something that shoots air, DUH. The simple truth is, unless the game is horribly imbalanced, "sucking less" is the best "counter" to whatever you're losing to.
I couldn't disagree more. Playing better isn't just about macroing up, it's much more complicated than that. Even the pros lose to each other because their unit composition is off.
For example, make something that shoots air? That's all? Any unit? Mass queens, then? Corruptors? Sometimes, the list of what units counter what unit aren't enough, and the game is endlessly complex. Maybe you're so awesome that you never needed to have this experience, but...I have had those magical solutions given to me, and all of the sudden I can beat an army composition that I never could before! On the other hand, I've outplayed my opponent in army size and macro, and lost terribly because I didn't realize how vulnerable one unit was to another.
In short, "sucking less" is what they're asking about, so telling them that isn't helpful. Tell them, specifically, how.
"How could I have played that game of basketball differently or better?" "You could have gotten more baskets than they did." Very cute, but not helpful.
On December 01 2010 04:13 sparkyk24 wrote: Everyone had to be new at some point. Sometimes, on the TL forums, I'll see a post with someone being like "how should I counter this army?" And a few people will actually be helpful while many others essentially say "you should suck less."
i don't know about newbs but with this situation in particular usually people just post that to vent in strat and it gets frustrating to read all the time. it's never really a question asked earnestly, it's almost always implied that such and such combination is impossible to beat.
like if someone asks how to beat sentry stalker you're just kind of like "..uh....make marine marauder". i mean the question is near impossible to answer definitively because they never post replays.
Dosent this go back to the NES, Genesis, Snes days when one of your parents or your sister grabs a controller and has no idea what she is doing? Jumping into lava pits with Mario and just playing badly while we sit there and get annoyed and yell "no no! hold sprint then jump UGH!!!"?
In general gamers, even myself can be pretty impatient with people who are new to games, forgetting that we were all once newbies and had no clue what we were doing.
I have read here that "no one hates noobs", and I disagree. Of course, denying that "no one hates noobs" does not mean that "everyone hates noobs". But some people does.
The first online game I ever played was DotA, and due to the nature of the game (no matter how good you are, if there's a noob in your team it is like playing 4v6), lots of people hates noobs, insults noobs and even humillates noobs so they leave the game (and free the gold).
That happens when you join a public game, but not many people have friends to play with when the just started playing an RTS. The next game you want to join, the guy that insulted you tells everyone you are a bad player, and they kick you out before the game even starts.
It even happens in games with "noobs allowed", because there's always a good player feeling like pwning a newbie, looking for an easy game to win.
On my very first game on 4v4 everyone on my team called me a noob for doing nothing but taking three hatcheries, spitting larvae, and spreading creep everywhere, including my allies base. They IMed me after the match telling me to quit i was such a noob.
In my honest opinion, if you TRULY like a game, you will try to help as many people as possible get good at it and enjoy it no matter how 'noob' they are.
However - if you try to genuinely try to help someone, give them your best advice in the simplest form, and they don't use your advice it becomes annoying. For example, if my buddy in bronze asks me "what is the best way to improve?", I will suggest he should focus on macro concepts. If he then focuses on micro, and tells me he doesn't know what he's doing wrong, it will feel like he's ignoring my advice. This can peeve me to some extent, but at the end of the day if someone is trying to learn I am very patient and will do my very best to help them improve.
Also, newer players that are cocky / know it all are disliked. These are the ones that whine about unit design and imbalance. These discussions show us that the players are blaming the game for their losses instead of blaming themselves. Pushing the blame to something else is never highly looked upon, especially when it's clear that you have other areas to improve on. I personally don't think balance matters until you are at the highest of skill levels (ie pro level). Up until that point improving your micro / macro / decision making can overcome your problems.
Another type of person that fits into this group are the players that THINK they are good, and give out erroneous advice. I believe people get this impression for certain sc2 casters. If they give out poor advice to people that don't know any better it can be really frustrating. Also, the forum posters that criticize the pros and post "oh he CLEARLY should have just done this," could get on peoples nerves. There is a lot of thought that goes into competitive strategies and the environment is completely different, so saying something like this can be greatly disrespectful.
Sometimes, we poke fun at noobs, but it's not meant to actually make them feel bad. For example when Tasteless or another caster jokes and says "noob, you can lower the supply depot between your cc and gas!" (actually I don't know if he's ever said that), it's all in good fun and of course he isn't trying to ward noobs away from sc2 (hell Tasteless has done a huge part in helping people get into the game). So if you hear jokes about noobs please take them lightly - we really do want you playing the game.
I think this issue (if it's even an issue at all) can be boiled down to modesty. People need to be more modest with how good they think they are, be cautious about the advice they give out, and give more respect to the pros and people who have been a part of the community for a long time.
I honestly find it awkward being friends with a noob you met over the internet. If youre so much better than him, itll be hard to play with him. He will either hold you back (in team games) or you will obliterate him. I only hate noobs when im playing a team game and i know i cant do it by myself.
On December 01 2010 06:52 rally_point wrote: In my honest opinion, if you TRULY like a game, you will try to help as many people as possible get good at it and enjoy it no matter how 'noob' they are.
However - if you try to genuinely try to help someone, give them your best advice in the simplest form, and they don't use your advice it becomes annoying. For example, if my buddy in bronze asks me "what is the best way to improve?", I will suggest he should focus on macro concepts. If he then focuses on micro, and tells me he doesn't know what he's doing wrong, it will feel like he's ignoring my advice. This can peeve me to some extent, but at the end of the day if someone is trying to learn I am very patient and will do my very best to help them improve.
Also, newer players that are cocky / know it all are disliked. These are the ones that whine about unit design and imbalance. These discussions show us that the players are blaming the game for their losses instead of blaming themselves. Pushing the blame to something else is never highly looked upon, especially when it's clear that you have other areas to improve on. I personally don't think balance matters until you are at the highest of skill levels (ie pro level). Up until that point improving your micro / macro / decision making can overcome your problems.
Another type of person that fits into this group are the players that THINK they are good, and give out erroneous advice. I believe people get this impression for certain sc2 casters. If they give out poor advice to people that don't know any better it can be really frustrating. Also, the forum posters that criticize the pros and post "oh he CLEARLY should have just done this," could get on peoples nerves. There is a lot of thought that goes into competitive strategies and the environment is completely different, so saying something like this can be greatly disrespectful.
Sometimes, we poke fun at noobs, but it's not meant to actually make them feel bad. For example when Tasteless or another caster jokes and says "noob, you can lower the supply depot between your cc and gas!" (actually I don't know if he's ever said that), it's all in good fun and of course he isn't trying to ward noobs away from sc2 (hell Tasteless has done a huge part in helping people get into the game). So if you hear jokes about noobs please take them lightly - we really do want you playing the game.
I think this issue (if it's even an issue at all) can be boiled down to modesty. People need to be more modest with how good they think they are, be cautious about the advice they give out, and give more respect to the pros and people who have been a part of the community for a long time.
Good post. Yeah, I wasn't talking about something like that, where it's like, "Oh, you noob ^_^" :::playful jab pinch pinch::: I'm talking about real noobs, and the people that seem to despise them or condescend to them. Some people do want to make people feel bad.
But, I agree, I think a lot of the community can be very nice and understanding, even saying things like "I've been there," or, "I used to struggle with that, too." I suppose it's like others have said: the bad ones stand out.
noob means newby, i don't mind explaining stuff to newcomers, as long as i know something about it for sure. Though noob is also used to insult players for being bad as newcomers, thats why it has a negativ taste. How well new players are treated depends really on the community and competetiv games tend to have a really high amount of trolls and other stuff, and because they like to show off, they like to pick the weak.
I'm one of the few people who don't hate noobs. A million years ago somebody once said in my defense in a game of 3v3, "everybody's gotta start somewhere" Ever since that's been how I feel about noobs. There's no point in screaming down their throats, especially when you once sucked as much as they did and are too far up your own ass to admit it.
And lol @ everybody in this thread saying "nobody hates noobs". That's a load of shit. Now not EVERYONE hates noobs, but there's quite a few people who are content to just scream at someone all game long for playing bad, even if they aren't acting like they know what they're doing.
On December 01 2010 04:13 sparkyk24 wrote: SC is as bad about it as any game (maybe even more so than WoW). Why does everyone hate noobs so much?
People hate noobs in WoW because they are bad at what many call a skill-less game. I haven't seen much flaming with SC besides people complaining over "imbalance".
I think before a person plays a multiplayer game they should at least learn the basics offline, like when you see a person on Starcraft building like a supply depot on 7 a engineering bay at 12 a barracks at 18 and a orbital command at 25 it just hurts you inside.
If you see someone playing badly but they at least a sense of how to play the game then that is fine and it doesn't matter what skill level you are you should be able to learn at least that.
-Ego. The delusion that one is skilled or knowledgeable is the stiffest barrier to improvement or education. People are wont to quickly form assumptions and impressions, but one must discard such tendencies in order to calmly analyze any problem. Ego leads to:
-Inability to analyze problems from multiple angles. Ego anchors one's analysis on one framework, one set of assumptions. Thorough analysis demands multiple perspectives.
-Inability to frame problems. Noobs tend to express inquiries in terms of assumptions or explanations of situations that aren't helpful to themselves or others trying to help them. Classic example: any thread seeking help without providing a single replay. Even when they earnestly try to be humble and provide as much information as even-handedly as possible, their inexperience can foil their attempts to identify what it is they should be seeking. For instance, they might ask, "How do I respond to this general sort of play?" instead of, "How do I prevent this one, specific, difficult situation from actuating?"
-Inability to digest advice. If someone is already confident in a fixed view of the problem, and is unwilling to accept any other since that view is tied to his ego, he instantly must deny all solutions built on different views of the problem, or even solutions built to solve different problems entirely. His defense of his position may come off as belligerent and inflexible, even if he bears no ill will in doing so. In essence, the defense of a position signifies an entirely different sort of discussion altogether: an argument, not a supplication.
-Inability to advise. Advice demands an understanding of the goals and problems of the advisee. What is the advisee trying to accomplish (usually winning games of Starcraft here), and how can he increase his ability to do this (the advice) in light of what he's already done (the problems as presented in his inquiries and replays provided)? The less well-equipped the advisor, the poorer advice will be provided, and ego can easily blind you as to how well-equipped you are. The result: much poor advice generated from probably well-meaning analysis conducted under the lens of far too limited experience.
For Wow, They only care if a noob gets you killed (Like a Wipe in a dungeon) or fucks up a raid ect StarCraft don't you hate it when you lose to a 6pool cause you didn't scout? Out of pure laziness and somehow they win.
I don't hate noobs, I hate the arrogant pricks, that are actually good at the game, and have to demean everyone else that isn't at the same skill level. I played SC2 DotA for the first time and there was one guy who had been playing for a while, and I got some serious nerd rage from him.
Most people don't hate the majority of noobs they hate noobs who think they "have it all figured out" when really they don't. You don't need to look further than the Strategy forums to see gold leaguers pointing out how wrong someone is.
To be honest the noobs that are studying the game and are willing to improve I've seen in blogs usually get a ton of tips and people cheering them on. If you have a nice attitude and don't expect everyone to do a ton of research for you when you can't even be bothered to post a replay or use the search function no one is ever going to flame you.
I think most people just have big problems with noobs that dont listen and/or dont do a real effort to learn. I hate noobs that dont want to learn, dont want to get better, and wont listen to tips I give them. But I actually really really like noobs who gives an effort to learn. I't makes my heart warm to see people struggle so hard at such low levels, but still doing soooo much to get better. It makes myself wanna do better too. I've trained people up from bronze to diamond. But I also have some friends who just dont want to learn, and are doomed to forever suck, and those are the kind of noobs I hate, and might show openly my despice for them. As for the rude remarks in threads, I think that rather often is because its something thats asked soooo often, and explained even more often, that it shows that the one asking the question didn't really put much effort into finding out what they wanted. And if I'm not mistaken, that is a violation to the rules on TL. The rude comments are ofcourse not really justified by that, but I chose to dont answer those questions, and If I would, it would be with a semi-rude "there is a search function you know" or something like that.
On December 01 2010 07:19 epicopter wrote: I think before a person plays a multiplayer game they should at least learn the basics offline, like when you see a person on Starcraft building like a supply depot on 7 a engineering bay at 12 a barracks at 18 and a orbital command at 25 it just hurts you inside.
If you see someone playing badly but they at least a sense of how to play the game then that is fine and it doesn't matter what skill level you are you should be able to learn at least that.
This is something I always do, especially if its a team game in which your bad performance can make the game less enjoyable for your team mates. In my opinion its selfish and lazy to not even make efforts in getting better before ruining other peoples gaming experience. It seems a lot of people except someone to outright tell them how to play and get better, instead of bothering to search and read guides. This same mentality applies to forums, in which you can find a lot of threads with helpfull knowledge but decide to make a new post out of laziness.
In SC2 we even have hundreds of hours of educational videos on youtube from beginners guides to Day9 dailies to search enlightment from
On December 01 2010 05:01 TheBlueMeaner wrote: This forum is full of starcraft veterans, there are people that have been playing the game for 12 years now. They get easily offended when someone with no experience comes thinking they know it all. I played broodwar for 2 years before it was replaced by sc2, I only got to D+ in iccup. Even I get offended when someone who's experience is sc2 since launch comes telling me how to play.
This post really made me think, because I've tried to give advice around here at least a couple times (I'm new as of SC2...), never even thought about how I might be talking to someone who has been playing Brood War all this time.
I played Brood War back in high school very casually, just playing custom games mostly, ladder was too slow for me and the maps were too big and intimidating. I never heard about ICCUP back then, probably stopped playing before it was even around. Switched to WC3 immediately when it was released, because it had better graphics. Sadly it was not until SC2 that I remembered how amazing BW was, I should have never stopped playing.
The reason I am bringing all this up, is even with that little experience (compared to someone playing for the past 12 years) I started out miles ahead compared to people new at Starcraft when SC2 hit.
Now that I have spent the past 5 months working so hard to move faster and think faster...holy shit...some of you guys have been doing this for 12 years, with a much more difficult game. So much respect, there is no way I would be enjoying this game as much as I am, without help from veterans like Day9 and just people on this forum. That is why I love this game so much, the learning, which is impossible without other people. It's also the reason why I was never good at BW, I just wanted to be good on my own, everyone else could fuck off. Then I would lose and get frustrated instead of talking to other people about it...to learn.
So thanks for posting, and I'll now make an extra effort to not tell people what to do and take into consideration how "new" I am to starcraft.
I just don't understand why people have to be so mean and disrespectful to noobs in the Dota genre. I remember playing HoN on "noobs only" games, and I know that if I were to forget ONE missing call, that I would be suddenly diagnosed to have every mental disability possible by at least one of my teammates. Then I'm deemed unworthy because I am a noob in game that is labeled "noobs only."
Now why the hell would I want to win a game where my teammates are assholes to me? I also get angry at my teammates if they are causing us to lose, but instead of being an asshole to them, I find to have much better results if I calmly tell the player that they need to be doing something different.
I guess I'm not an emotional person, because I just don't understand how people fail so badly at controlling their anger. The anonymity of the internet can really turn some people into terrible creatures.
Since SC2 is more of 1v1 game I think the hate towards noobs is pretty tame, but I think a few people are a little elitist. They think that since they are in the same "league" as the pros that they are god's gift to SC2 and it is their duty to prove people wrong by shoving "I'm Diamond" in their face. When in reality they got to Diamond doing the same strat over and over. However, I think the majority of people are very helpful. I've never seen so many skilled players willing to help strangers over the internet, by taking the time to look at replays, or even practicing certain builds with newer players.
It's the know it alls. I hate some idiot shitty platinum player start ranting about how abusive my Terran is in TvZ. I told him I'm just a vastly superior player and he played quite poor. He said there's NOTHING he could have done better. I told him I could have easily handled the situation much better and even beat my own Terran (it was my offrace back then). After he kept ranting, I eventually just said, "look, you're not good at all, you're just an overall poor player," to which he came with this huge lecture on how Plat is the second highest division and that means he's better (which technically is true) than the average player (although he made it sounds like he was heaps and mounds). In the end, it just annoyed me to know end.
On December 01 2010 06:50 Triss_Teh wrote: On my very first game on 4v4 everyone on my team called me a noob for doing nothing but taking three hatcheries, spitting larvae, and spreading creep everywhere, including my allies base. They IMed me after the match telling me to quit i was such a noob.
To be fair, unless they are Zerg the creep will make it impossible for them to build structures within their base. If that happened, a flaming to a lesser extent may be warranted.
And now to contribute:
I began playing SCBW when I was like 8 and only used cheat codes. Eventually in my first year a Korean friend (whom I was to share a house in the coming years) got me into the Proscene and onto ICCUP in 2008. I got to a peak of D+ Terran on ICCUP, nothing to be proud of but it is what it is. Mastering basic fundamentals (read: mechanics) took conscientious effort to not only look away from microing units but to have a mental checklist of things I should be doing every 10-15 sec (check supply, build units, glance at minimap, build expo/production facilities, scout. Rinse and Repeat.) I acknowledged the great resource available to me in TL.net and tried not to be overwhelmed by the depth of gameplay and advice offered to me through not only amazing threads, guides and liquidpedia but also in the accumulated knowledge of the vets on this site whose game knowledge far surpassed anything I believed this RTS was capable of. I read the Commandments, I made sure if I made threads I put some degree of effort into them so that they would stay open and a discussion could take place.
It feels like with SC2's release, every player who has not played BW believes that the new game means new gameplay and mechanics to be figured out. However, the solid fundamentals that good mechanics provides directly applies to SC2 in usefulness.
The arrogance of the SC2 gamers. Wow. Some humble pie needs to be consumed when entering this enormously competitive scene of Starcraft. This arrogance often mixes heavily with ignorance. Terribad players often seem extremely unwilling to listen to any or all criticism when they post a [H] or [D] thread. Insisting on doing it your own way without considering the advice of those here on TL.net to help is both foolish and burning bridges towards improvement. Realizing you are not good is the first step to getting better.
Noobs also need to learn how to use the search bar in the top right, incredible how many people create threads asking simple questions that could have been answered with search. Then we get threads 5 replies long and the just clutter up the left side of TL when I browse.
Have you read the SC2 strategy section? 0_o People don't hate on new players simply because they're new, they hate on new players who scream imbalance because they lose to a strategy and think they're better than everybody else. If you are nice, productive, and willing to learn, then no one is gonna be an ass hole to you.
Some people are just jerks. However, on Liquid, I'd say that people are fairly polite to noobs. If they're not so polite, its usually because they care about the quality of posts on the forum. They don't want Liquid to degenerate into another bnet forum.
If new people read the forum rules, search for previous posts, and put though and effort (and replays) into their posts, they get treated very well. This isn't asking for too much. These are simple courtesies that help make the Liquid forums better.
On December 01 2010 07:49 FabledIntegral wrote: It's the know it alls. I hate some idiot shitty platinum player start ranting about how abusive my Terran is in TvZ. I told him I'm just a vastly superior player and he played quite poor. He said there's NOTHING he could have done better. I told him I could have easily handled the situation much better and even beat my own Terran (it was my offrace back then). After he kept ranting, I eventually just said, "look, you're not good at all, you're just an overall poor player," to which he came with this huge lecture on how Plat is the second highest division and that means he's better (which technically is true) than the average player (although he made it sounds like he was heaps and mounds). In the end, it just annoyed me to know end.
I'm sure telling him you were vastly superior annoyed him as well and probably was too pissed off to listen to you. But I do know what you mean about players who just complain and won't take advice. I played a terran who gg'd after a quick bio push failed, and then started whining about how overpowered zerg is. He wasn't that far behind, so I responded by telling him I was really surprised he gg'd so soon and that he should stay in the game for the sake of learning...and possibly winning - he took my advice for the moment and kept playing. But then he decisively lost several minutes later, because his macro was weaker than mine - probably because he gets pissed off and quits too early very often. There was even a point he could have killed me, but didn't realize it and didn't attack. He said "fuck you tell me why I should have wasted my time with this game?" and then left before I could even respond. He didn't want advice, he wanted to be angry and feel like he was playing at a disadvantage.
On December 01 2010 07:49 FabledIntegral wrote: It's the know it alls. I hate some idiot shitty platinum player start ranting about how abusive my Terran is in TvZ. I told him I'm just a vastly superior player and he played quite poor. He said there's NOTHING he could have done better. I told him I could have easily handled the situation much better and even beat my own Terran (it was my offrace back then). After he kept ranting, I eventually just said, "look, you're not good at all, you're just an overall poor player," to which he came with this huge lecture on how Plat is the second highest division and that means he's better (which technically is true) than the average player (although he made it sounds like he was heaps and mounds). In the end, it just annoyed me to know end.
I'm sure telling him you were vastly superior annoyed him as well and probably was too pissed off to listen to you. But I do know what you mean about players who just complain and won't take advice. I played a terran who gg'd after a quick bio push failed, and then started whining about how overpowered zerg is. He wasn't that far behind, so I responded by telling him I was really surprised he gg'd so soon and that he should stay in the game for the sake of learning...and possibly winning - he took my advice for the moment and kept playing. But then he decisively lost several minutes later, because his macro was weaker than mine - probably because he gets pissed off and quits too early very often. There was even a point he could have killed me, but didn't realize it and didn't attack. He said "fuck you tell me why I should have wasted my time with this game?" and then left before I could even respond. He didn't want advice, he wanted to be angry and feel like he was playing at a disadvantage.
Well he was ranting quite a bit before I said that.
On December 01 2010 07:49 FabledIntegral wrote: It's the know it alls. I hate some idiot shitty platinum player start ranting about how abusive my Terran is in TvZ. I told him I'm just a vastly superior player and he played quite poor. He said there's NOTHING he could have done better. I told him I could have easily handled the situation much better and even beat my own Terran (it was my offrace back then). After he kept ranting, I eventually just said, "look, you're not good at all, you're just an overall poor player," to which he came with this huge lecture on how Plat is the second highest division and that means he's better (which technically is true) than the average player (although he made it sounds like he was heaps and mounds). In the end, it just annoyed me to know end.
I'm sure telling him you were vastly superior annoyed him as well and probably was too pissed off to listen to you. But I do know what you mean about players who just complain and won't take advice. I played a terran who gg'd after a quick bio push failed, and then started whining about how overpowered zerg is. He wasn't that far behind, so I responded by telling him I was really surprised he gg'd so soon and that he should stay in the game for the sake of learning...and possibly winning - he took my advice for the moment and kept playing. But then he decisively lost several minutes later, because his macro was weaker than mine - probably because he gets pissed off and quits too early very often. There was even a point he could have killed me, but didn't realize it and didn't attack. He said "fuck you tell me why I should have wasted my time with this game?" and then left before I could even respond. He didn't want advice, he wanted to be angry and feel like he was playing at a disadvantage.
Well he was ranting quite a bit before I said that.
Oh yeah I believe it. I've been called so many insults for winning, it is foolish to insult someone who is better than you. The funniest is when the person you just defeated calls you a noob.
Those people who resent newbie players tend to forget that not everyone buys a game (i.e. SC2) to play it several hours a day, all days of the week. Some of them work hard others have families to take care They just want to have some fun and spend some good time.That's how I think things work. Not everybody needs to play at diamond level.
Yes, i'm a noob at SC2 and proud of it because it means I'm better at other things than those people who bash at noobs.
Most help threads have the player either blaming something else, or they will have bad mechanics. Bad mechanics are so easy to improve without help from other players, but some people are still oblivious to the fact that they aren't macro beasts just because they keep their minerals down since their cc/nexus wasn't building workers for 2/3 of the time.
Then people blaming other stuff are usually stubborn and don't know that being high diamond isn't that great. I'm not saying it's horrible, but it's not great. They also have a tendency because of their belief that they're good and they will not accept anything anybody says and their counterargument will be some stupid kind of theorycraft that doesn't even mean sense and the thread turns into a balance discussion.
Funny thing is, these people seem to be the type of people that will complain about TL being "elitist", when it seems to me it's actually these people thinking that their high diamond rank puts them on the same level as the pros and when they start to act like a pro but still say wrong things/troll, they're warned/banned, which they feel like they don't deserve.
Most people that do recognize their own fault won't even need other people to comment on their replay, so therefore they won't even post, and they can continue while improving by themselves.
On December 01 2010 04:15 Nutro wrote: Noob spotted.
Lol, jerk.
I may have the skills of a noob, but I have the heart of a better noob! =D
This is a pretty good view. I mean I don't think you're a noob because I am one but the treat-me-like-I'm-pro view is the problem. Admitting you're a scrub and that you're willing to learn is the first step.
I didnt read all 6 pages. but WoW wasnt like that in vanilla. everyone was helpful and the community wasnt the same. this is probably because the game was hard. and you saw the same faces everyday. Making your annonimity less of an thing. u get a bad rap in wow back in the day. you were an outcast lol.
as far as SC2 goes.... most of the people you play you will never ever see again so they are just asses to begin with... then if they talk shit just leave. you have nothing to prove to them. I normally tell most noobs to just watch day9. and leave. helping them, but never doing anything lol.
In starcraft, there's nothing wrong with noobs. In fps games and dota, there is. When you have a teammate that drags you down, it's quite frustrating. Your overall game experience is being degraded because of their existence. That's why people hate noobs so much.
Maybe it's something like this: a new player joins a community. Suppose he's either friendly or aggressive. If he's aggressive he likely won't be present too long and others will remember him as someone new. Friendly players would instead grow to be regular community members. So this would naturally lead to new people being distrusted and aquiring a bad name.
What this boilds down to, is basically personality.
There are the bad personalities, which often aspire to become the worst "noobs", unwilling to learn, listen and suggest.
And the friendlier and more rounded personalities, who aspire to learn and put advice to use in a contructive manner. People who analyze the situation, without first casting blame on everything and everyone besides themselves in a fit of fury and rage. Those are the noobs nobody likes.
As most people have already stated in this thread, I believe.
Imagine that I'm in a warzone. Bombs are going off all around me, zerglings are rushing towards my position and my seige tank just got sniped by mutas.
And then the marine next to me turns around and says "how do I shoot out of the bunker?"
On December 01 2010 08:59 sikyon wrote: Imagine that I'm in a warzone. Bombs are going off all around me, zerglings are rushing towards my position and my seige tank just got sniped by mutas.
And then the marine next to me turns around and says "how do I shoot out of the bunker?"
On December 01 2010 08:52 Chairman Ray wrote: In starcraft, there's nothing wrong with noobs. In fps games and dota, there is. When you have a teammate that drags you down, it's quite frustrating. Your overall game experience is being degraded because of their existence. That's why people hate noobs so much.
Starcraft has team games too you know. Although I only play team games for fun, it really is infuriating to be paired up with someone in 2v2 who goes mass DTs.
There are a couple reasons I can think of. The first is that the term "noob" is kind of a blanket derogatory term. Its kinda like people calling something "gay" or someone a "fag". They might not necessarily be suggesting that something or someone is homosexual, but they use that term to insult whenever they are frustrated.
Second, to go with the first reason, without face to face contact, it is easier to bitch someone out without consequence. Without face to face contact, people wont feel as sympathetic to a new person either. When someone isn't playing well, more experience people on their team will get frustrated and just go with insults instead of helping them out.
Third, avid gamers probably don't have a chance to feel better than others in real life nearly as often as theyd like to. They might be made to feel inferior in their normal life, so they want to make up for it when they play games. It feels good to be better than people at something, and putting people down online probably enhances this feeling of superiority.
I don't hate noobs or "noob thump." I think the term has just become a put down and is thrown around a lot of games as the community becomes increasingly elitist. As for the annoying part of why I think people dislike noobs, is because in some games you're very reliant on your team. The more team oriented the game.. The more noob bashing and worse the community seems to get (Such as Hero's of Newerth.)
On December 01 2010 04:45 sammler wrote: The best thing about SC2 is in-game, it's all down to you (1v1). When I tried to get into HoN and QL after quitting WoW, all I would get is 'teal leave' or 'leave tdm, quit browser'. I really liked those games but never even got a through a noob-labeled game without some sort of abuse. In the end, even though I wanted to get good at those games, it's hard to spend your precious free time being abused.
I remember playing ROC DotA and getting quizzed about items cost to see if I was a noob. at some point after getting quizzed enough I'd learn the quizzing patterns and memorize the costs and I could finally start playing DotA regularly
The entire sc2 strategy forum is why. Noobs stay noobs because they can't recognize their own play flaws, rage, blame imba etc. Every play player i've ever met gas that kinda attitude. They want to be good, they play a lot, but they don't have what it takes to be good. Sound they blame other stuff and rage.
On December 01 2010 04:54 ddrddrddrddr wrote: There's noobs and there's noobs. Some are inquisitive and others are obnoxious. Just like there are pros who are pedagogical and pros who are idra.
Haha Idra can now be made into adjectives and verbs? Eg. I'm gonna Idra you if you MMM my zerg.~XD~
I don't really enjoy playing against noobs because I'd rather have a highly skilled opponent so that we can produce a good match. I like the word noob, the word sounds like boob. Boobies Noobies.... <3boob
I love playing with noobs that are trying to learn. Most of my gametime is spent with silver-platinum players that I can beat most of the time, because it's lower stress than playing ladder and I love teaching.
The ones I get angry at are the ones that join my very hard or insane computer games when I'm trying to just take a break and have fun for a few minutes. Seriously guys, if you can't beat a medium computer by yourself, what the hell are you doing queuing vs insane in team games?
It's because it's human nature to want to feel dominance over others. When a person calls someone a noob, they're trying to establish dominance over that person. I don't think anyone hates noobs unless they're on their team because some people have to be bad for anyone to look good
With anything, including sports, the problem isn't the arrogance of the skilled, its the misplaced arrogance of the shitty. It annoyed me in track and it annoys me in SC2.
as a DotA player for many year's, i hate noobs for crapping all over the beautiful game, their garbage ability to be so unbelievably terrible at the game almost always results in a loss, no matter if you help them or not, they will be the reason you lose, now losing in a game where you know there is nothing you could have done to change that outcome is just plain irritating.
I could go play a garbage game(ie. LoL) which is noob friendly(respawning rax's, good idea), but skill and game mechanics are a must, im not saying im the best, im saying im one of the better player's, who wants to play with equally good players, i have no issue's losing in a game that was well played by both sides, i might even say GG. But losing because of someone else(noob) is infuriating, everyone DOES make mistakes, but if you can't make up for them, at least in DotA, expect to be flamed(in fact i have many fond memory's of flaming noobs out of games, from both my team, and the opponents, playing with 3 friends meant there was always room for 1 pub noob to be on our team), even winning against noobs is irritating.
For Starcraft/2, i dont really care, its 1v1, thats cool, of course i get pissed when they do some BS cheesy strat, but when i win, it just makes it that much more sweeter. for 2v2+... see above.
noobs in sc2 don't bother me at all, not one bit. this is because sc2 revolves around 1v1 play. the problem with noobs is when they are on your team.
playing wow, or dota, or any heavily cooperative game with a noob is when the bashing really goes down. some noobs quietly take the beating while others get defensive, it's the defensive ones that drive ya nuts
On December 01 2010 12:28 Minzy wrote: but if you can't make up for them, at least in DotA, expect to be flamed(in fact i have many fond memory's of flaming noobs out of games
lovely, i have many fond memories of being on the receiving and of this assholism. i understand it, but damn it sucks when you're really trying to do good and some guy on your team calls you out every time you die
I think there's a lot of newb and noob hating because people think that they should have gotten more AI and 1v1 experience first before engaging in the multiplayer community and possibly bringing down the ranks of the people around them. However if you're a noob, you need to learn how to deal with the fact that if the pros aren't saying it's OP, it's probably not /: I'm new to SC2, so I would never dream of calling out a unit as OP - only calling out the fact that I can't manage a good counter or something.
noobs don't bother me until they interfere with me. it's why i can't play random 2v2. if i lose a game on 1v1 i accept that it was my fault. if i lose because some noob went one base battlecruiser rush in a 2v2 and then BMs me for not holding off the other teams combined army, then i rage.
^^^ Attitudes like Minzy's are why I stay away from DotA.
I think it's a combination of arrogance and frustration that inevitably channels downward towards less skilled players. The newer you are, the more you feel it, but I think it happens at all levels of gaming. It is especially worse in team games where teams are inevitably going to get stacked in public games.
On December 01 2010 04:14 Tien wrote: No one hates noobs.
People hate noobs that think they know everything.
SC2 brought an army of them here.
This.
A lot of times, there are new guys that come onto TL with a lot of stuff to offer. Then you have people who's first post is to put up a link to their stream without even putting any major effort whatsoever.
And then you have people who always say "hey guys, new user, long time lurker"....And then you get those exact same people writing posts about something that either doesn't make sense or is totally off the mark. It's when that happens that people start hatin' on the noobies.
I look at a newb as being, well, new. I don't hate on them at all, I do what I can to help if I can considering everyone is a newb at some point. However, I look at the term "noob" as being someone who is just generally stupid. Not someone who is seriously looking for help or assistance, but someone with an idiotic attitude who happen to think they know everything, without even bothering to learn anything.
On December 01 2010 12:41 Ghin wrote: There's always someone willing to write a book about any subject. Being a noob just means you're too lazy to look for resources to get better.
Well in my experience, no matter how much I read about how to play (the entire liquipedia's Terran Strategy, many times), and how much I practiced against the AI, the first time online they just crushed me. In SCBW, in a game titled "2v2 noob".
I think playing against humans is the only way to really learn how to play. That's my humble opinion.
On December 01 2010 12:41 Ghin wrote: There's always someone willing to write a book about any subject. Being a noob just means you're too lazy to look for resources to get better.
Well in my experience, no matter how much I read about how to play (the entire liquipedia's Terran Strategy, many times), and how much I practiced against the AI, the first time online they just crushed me. In SCBW, in a game titled "2v2 noob".
I think playing against humans is the only way to really learn how to play. That's my humble opinion.
I disagree. For the longest time, I always winged the way I played against other people. My builds were all based loosely around a concept of what I wanted. Sure I got D+, but I never got anywhere farther than that because I didn't have the resources and the study to advance to the next level.
The other day I learned the proper timings and build order for the Flash Build, and my TvP ability just jumped straight through the roof after using it. While playing against humans helps you adapt to the creativity that humans possess, nothing is going to replace reading and studying how to play in general.
On December 01 2010 12:41 Ghin wrote: There's always someone willing to write a book about any subject. Being a noob just means you're too lazy to look for resources to get better.
Well in my experience, no matter how much I read about how to play (the entire liquipedia's Terran Strategy, many times), and how much I practiced against the AI, the first time online they just crushed me. In SCBW, in a game titled "2v2 noob".
I think playing against humans is the only way to really learn how to play. That's my humble opinion.
I disagree. For the longest time, I always winged the way I played against other people. My builds were all based loosely around a concept of what I wanted. Sure I got D+, but I never got anywhere farther than that because I didn't have the resources and the study to advance to the next level.
The other day I learned the proper timings and build order for the Flash Build, and my TvP ability just jumped straight through the roof after using it. While playing against humans helps you adapt to the creativity that humans possess, nothing is going to replace reading and studying how to play in general.
That's getting a little off topic, don't you think?
In your example, you had been playing for a while and then you learned a build, and it worked. But by then you were no longer a noob or newbie ("...For the longest time..."), you were just playing without a build. You already knew the game, so the reading helped.
When you really are a noob (someone who has just started) it does not matter how much you read. You need to practice against people in order to play well and gain the ability to follow a build order, for example. Maybe I didn't explane myself clearly in my first replay. Sorry about that.
I have a lot more experience in the poker world than the SC world, and you would be amazed at how prevalent noob bashing is on the tables. These are the fishes of the card game, the only reasons high stakes games run anymore, and there are players left and right telling them how terrible they are; in other words, they are telling them how to manage that money they had been attempting to donate. I always sit back and wonder why these people feel the need to tell some terrible player that plays for fun and doesn't mind the losses that he should get better.
Why would you want that? Why would you want the players to get better?
The same can be said, to a much lesser extent, for Star Craft. You should love having players worse than you around! They are there for developing skills to use at higher levels, with a nice little boost to the winrate at the same time. And even if they are bad, they might not care, so why should you ruin the fun of a player who is just playing recreationally that you will never, EVER play again.
So I'm not really surprised at how negative the SC community could be towards new players, no. But it does discourage a lot of players, who may have eventually gone on to do great things.
Newbs (people who are actually new to the game) I try to help.
Also, I play Halo online quite often, and my friends (who I now avoid on it), will just do the most RETARDED thing possible, then blame the game. They either say "That's BS" or "lolhax," when if they stopped blaming the game and thinking they were God, and watched some replays, they could be quite good. Those are the kind of noobs that I hate.
Oh yeah, arrogant 12 year old noobs ftl.
Edit: People who "hate" on the noobs are just as bad though. When I play a team game online (like on Halo), a lot of time if a guy doing really well has a team full of bad people, instead of trying to help, he just blames them. Saying things like "You guys fucking suck," and "You're all retarded," isn't really helping the team.
It's just another word to use to insult someone. They don't literally mean you are a noob therefore I hate you. It's just a word with a negative meaning. Someone calling you a faggot doesn't actually imply that you are gay, but rather they are just insulting you for whatever reason.
I like newbs, they give me free wins, and I give them some pointers, its a win win. However I can't stand newbs that watch 4 day9 dailies and think oh now im a pro gamer, and try to tell other nebs how to play what to do, that drives me crazy.
I really hate noobs because they are the type of people who never shut up at LANs about how they won this game and brag how much of a strategic genius they are. (OH SHI- THE REINCARNATION OF GENGHIS KHAN!!!111!!!!) They show me their replays, they do not ask for help, they do not accept criticism, and they are the best players in the world. But the reason people do not recognize them for being the best is because they are unlucky 99% of the time.
However, I cannot respect someone just for being good at a game. Ultimately, it contributes little to society and the only people you can only brag about being good at a game to other nerds. Sadly, I wish this was the same for jocks. That is the reason why I like newbies. They often jump from one game to another quickly, but they usually bring the most fun to a game compared to the hardcore players who appear (but not at all) to believe that video games determine how good of a human being you are.
I dont think "newbs" (I find noob term extermly offensive) are horrible persons themselves in anyway. Only when newbie is going to ask or question something while being ignorant. I think it's mostly the arrogance that some newbies have. They come often with conclusion that the problem is in the game or someone else and not in themselves. Obiously this has something to do with age IMO which would explain the difference between WoW and EVE/SC communities.
Part of the problem is 'noobs' ask the wrong questions when they open threads. Often their questions aren't very helpful to them getting better. People try to give real and useful advice, but it's not what the 'noob' asked for. Then both parties come out frustrated.
A very good case in point is the one you brought up OP. Often the correct answer to 'how should I counter this army?' is 'you should suck less' in nicer and more useful words. As stated by Day 9, newbies should stop thinking about counters, and instead think about having better fundamentals. All too often I see newbies ask 'how do I counter this army', then good players will say 'work on your macro' or something, and the newbie will complain that nobody is being helpful. This fuels frustration for all involved.
I would say that noob hating is more dominant in team based games like Dota and Counterstrike. When if you have a noob on your team it not only is a poor performance by them but it usually causes the entire team to lose. I know I have raged when a noob plays a game of dota/hon with me and his inability and higher tahn though attitude causes us to lose. In starcraft it is not so bad because of the league system with the bronze gold and up. Those who are of a lower caliber of skill can earn the way up to the top.
On December 02 2010 18:19 braammbolius wrote: Newb = A new player that is (hopefully) eager to learn.
Noob = Someone who will simply never be any good but thinks of himself as The Shit.
And there we have it
I've always thought of it as Newbie = A new player and Noob being more of a offensive term against new players, but everyone has different views on everything. I keep seeing people throw around the word Noob as if it is a swear word/insult :/
On December 02 2010 18:32 njnick wrote: Well my two cents is the problem lies with people
For noobs it is the willingness to learn and take advice.
For more experience players it is the willingness to teach and help people who just did not know.
Also I think everyone should be humble because no one knows what this game will be like in years to come.
imho TL is pretty nice to the friendly newbies.
but its a different story when a guy goes "im rank 2 gold man, and i tell you X is so fucking imba its total joke blabla" or when people that joined TL in mid sc2 beta keep talking crap about how SC2 should be , about sc1 stuff beeing irrelevant or former bonjwas beeing overhyped. when they just have no freakin clue and should accept that many people here playd competive RTS back when they didnt even know what a punany looks like and were playing with pokemon cards.
I think its correlated much to the good old principle of the internet.
If people are better at this than i am, they most probably will have no life. If people are worse than me at this, they are newbies. Only the people who match my level are to be considered normal.
Alas, i have proven myself to be normal and totally okay. Every1 else can learn from me and should take my advice seriously.
(Notice how this is the same shit in kind of every situation in life? Work: Works more? Total nerd! Works less? What a slacker! Driving: Faster than me? Way to kill people, you jerk! Slower than me? Comeeee ooooooon douche!)
Its the phenomenon that people made their experiences, made up their mind about it, and can (for themselves) perfectly reasonable argue why they behave suchandsuch in a situation, alas acting normally. Everyone who acts in another way (because he had not the same experiences / has another mindset / came to different conclusions) is not likely to be accepted.
As for newbies in the sense of starters: we all had a point where we started, so i guess its pretty reasonable to show appreciation for someone trying at least. And i guess most people who start with something are happy when they are welcomed in a kind manner and not told to gtfo, newb.
On December 02 2010 18:32 njnick wrote: Well my two cents is the problem lies with people
For noobs it is the willingness to learn and take advice.
For more experience players it is the willingness to teach and help people who just did not know.
Also I think everyone should be humble because no one knows what this game will be like in years to come.
imho TL is pretty nice to the friendly newbies.
but its a different story when a guy goes "im rank 2 gold man, and i tell you X is so fucking imba its total joke blabla" or when people that joined TL in mid sc2 beta keep talking crap about how SC2 should be , about sc1 stuff beeing irrelevant or former bonjwas beeing overhyped. when they just have no freakin clue and should accept that many people here playd competive RTS back when they didnt even know what a punany looks like and were playing with pokemon cards.
I agree that’s why is said everyone should be humble but if the guys a dick that’s fine. I was just pointing out that both people newbs and experienced players have their dicks .
Why would people hate newbs? We were all newbs once. And newbs brings this game a meaning too, lots and lots of people playing the game makes it more interesting. New players grows!
Elitism exists in every facet of everything, but is less prevalent in fields like academia, and certain areas of the arts (ie. NOT music). You are going to find abuse in any competitive high-pressure environment, but in the case of gaming there is a large dichotomy between casual and hardcore/professional players which creates an awkward situation. Unlike in sports or the culinary industry (which is renowned for it's high level of verbal abuse and need for thick skin), there are a large amount of players who are simply playing for enjoyment who are in direct contact with people who take the game more seriously. This doesn't happen with cooking let's say, where if you want to cook for fun you will be doing it in a different environment (your home) and will not have contact with professional chefs.
Let's take an example with WoW. Let's say a player from a top raiding guild decides to start a PuG raid because he missed out on his weekly raid for whatever reason. The range of skill levels in a PuG raid is going to be anywhere between high to very-low depending on how fussy the raid leader was with filling slots. You might get people who have never been in a proper raiding guild before (which is easily possible with the current standards of the game). As soon things go awry the good players are going to start abusing the worse players for letting down the raid-group. Normally, this would be the natural order of things. The experienced people would mouth off and the greenhorns would keep their mouths shut and listen to what they have to say. But the situation is unique because there are players in the raid who place success at a much lower ordinal ranking because there is little incentive for them to place it higher.
If I were trying to become a chef or professional sportsman there is a larger cost for failure (loss of monetary income mainly) and anger and verbal abuse is taken as a given. However, for what is still percieved by the general populous as a leisure activity where there is no cost for failure in the games endeavours, a large misunderstanding erupts between the two groups of players. Although sometimes you still get those annoying players who can't take abuse and criticisms even if they take the game seriously.
No, but seriously, I think the 'hating' on noobs subsides when people get older. Everyone started playing at sometime and wasn't good, so if I ever get someone who I see has a serious lack in play I will give them a few tips (unless they flame me for being a cheeser,rusher,lame turtle or whatever they think is they reason why they lost, then I flame back).
I think the only time it should really bother someone is when you're depending on a less skilled player to accomplish something. For example, playing 2v2. If your partner is not up to par, then you might get frustrated.
As for RPGs, it might just be tedious to explain the game or answer a lot of a questions that seem obvious to you. I used to play a MORPG callled Tibia and newbs used to just love annoying other players by spamming, standing on respawn location to prevent monster from appearing, stealing loots, blocking paths, etc. I cant blame them, when I started playing I used to do a lot of these things too.
In League of Legends, having a feeder on a team is frustrating but I do not think they deserve the massive hate they often get.
In too many games of LoL, I was considered the carry of the team, taking most of the kills and receiving so much praise and some friend requests. In other games, I fed the enemy, gave out free kills, and had to bear so many insults including ones to kill myself.
I guess my point to those who "noobs" in LoL do not really look at the big picture. Sometimes, you will see a level 23 person paired up with a level 30 person with 700 wins.
On December 02 2010 19:33 Leath wrote: As for RPGs, it might just be tedious to explain the game or answer a lot of a questions that seem obvious to you. I used to play a MORPG callled Tibia and newbs used to just love annoying other players by spamming, standing on respawn location to prevent monster from appearing, stealing loots, blocking paths, etc. I cant blame them, when I started playing I used to do a lot of these things too.
different things imho. what you describe is pure douchebaggery that pretty much only stupid 12 year olds would do.
while the annoying "noob" can be any kind of badmannered idiot with a too big ego.
On December 02 2010 18:19 braammbolius wrote: Newb = A new player that is (hopefully) eager to learn.
Noob = Someone who will simply never be any good but thinks of himself as The Shit.
And there we have it
This pretty much. Newbies are just new to the game (or SC in general) and just haven't picked up on a lot of stuff yet. Some newbies react badly to some of the stuff that happens to them as a result though, causing the line between noob and newb to blur.
Noobs generally have a decent understanding of the game...from their single point of view. Generally convinced that everytime they lose it has something to do with everything but themselves.
Or simply put, say you stop a 6 pool from a:
Good newb and their reasoning: 'Oh...I guess that doesn't always work, I'll try something else next time' Bad newb and their reasoning: 'Meh, he got lucky, next one won't be' Noob and their reasoning: 'Buff 6 pool, nerf <opponent race>, <lots of rage and caps>'
It's not about differences in experience and progress in a game, it's all about HOW we started. Some of us have to figure out ourselves the ropes of a game. We started with little or no outside help. We worked hard to grind for loot. We asked questions WHEN it's NECESSARY. Then there's these kinds of players who'll ask EVERY TIME. They put no effort in exploring the game themselves. They always want to be carried. They ask every basic questions (about the game) without giving much effort in understanding the answer. They even ask "how to play (this game)?" Not to mention they'd even engage in an argument after asking a question about the ropes of the game.
What I'm trying to say is, It's the "bad apple" kind of noobs that we hate, not noobs in general.