I got linked to this really great article over an email list, and I thought people might find it interesting. Note that it's aimed at an older audience, probably aged 30+.
NOTE: ARTICLE LINK IS NSFW BECAUSE OF PICS IN SIDEBAR
UCLA recently hosted a panel to discuss youth culture and, as “one of hipsterdom’s primary architects,” I was asked to come along. I showed up late for the event wearing nothing but a pair of pants and holding a bottle of beer, treating the whole scene like the cafeteria in Animal House, because that’s both fun and funny. The other panelists were mostly bloggers, magazine publishers and young entrepreneurs employed by the hipster trend. That includes the history professor who used the word “Negrification” with a straight face.
For those of you old fogies still perplexed by the term, a “hipster” is a young person (between the ages of 18-25) with an enthusiasm for contemporary alternative pop culture, primarily music and fashion. They wear over-sized glasses with brightly colored frames, tight pants, neon “ironic” T-shirts and Chuck Taylors.Their musical tastes run the gamut; so do their ethnic and social backgrounds. Oh yeah, and they read Vice magazine and Street Carnage, both of which came out of my head.
The most common misconception about these kids is they are trust-fund posers who buy what they’re told and shamelessly steal both black and white working-class culture. These patronizing criticisms almost always come from the previous generation who are mad at the world for letting them age and are desperate to prove that today, youth is more wasted on the young than ever before. I’ve been accused of defending hipsters because they made me rich, but the real reason I never turn down an opportunity to speak at these events is I love exposing this transparent gripe for what it is: sour grapes. The kids are all right.
“But what about their legacy?” I was recently asked by New York magazine. “What will they have left behind after it’s all said and done?” This question gets on my nerves. “Music and fashion,” I answered incredulously. Since when are young people responsible for leaving us with anything more? Have you heard their politics? I don’t want these people voting. I want them doing what they do best: Fun. The greasers were about rock ’n’ roll and making out in rumble seats. The beatniks gave us some good books, but they were mostly about shocking their parents by dancing with Negroes. The only thing the mods cared about outside of dancing and getting laid was fighting Elvis fans. Boomers, who are masters at glorifying their past, insist they stopped a war, but we all know it was Kissinger’s relentless bombing that ended it. Hippies were horny stoners. Though I was one of them, I’m happy to admit punks were more preening peacocks with guitars than anarchists smashing the state. Rap evolved from parties in the South Bronx. The list goes on, and it’s always just teenagers partying.
There are two things that make the hipster subculture unique. One: They’re better than their predecessors. Two: Everyone says they’re worse.
“Die Hipster Scum” is a common sticker and T-shirt here in New York. Time Out magazine had a cover story called “Why the Hipster Must Die” and Gawker has campaigned to end the trend entirely. Last year, a magazine called n+1 held a panel condemning hipsterdom as “white power” because it is somehow inexorably linked to gentrification.
The first question moderator Christian Lorentzen asked the UCLA panel was, “Why do they hate us?” I found this particularly ironic because he was the one who wrote the Time Out feature. I confronted him about this, and he said he did it for the paycheck and didn’t believe what he wrote. I told him the question should be, “Why do YOU hate us?” but went on to explain what’s really going on.
Now that being a teenager is permissible well into one’s 40s, you have old people within the youth-culture scene bitching about “the kids today.” Imagine Clint Eastwood’s character from Gran Torino if he was still at the club. “This goddamned kid calls himself a DJ?” he’d ask with a PBR in his hand and a trucker hat to hide his bald spot. “He doesn’t even know how to beatmix, for chrissakes. It’s just a pile of fucking MP3s.” The old will always see the young as naive and arrogant—they are. The only difference today is the old person is writing about nightlife for a twenty-something zine instead of worrying about his mortgage and winterizing his lawn (which is coming up soon, guys—I’d recommend at least four bags of lime if you’re around evergreens).
Everyone else on the panel handled the question similarly and the consensus seemed to be that hipster-bashing is lame. “It’s like when an old Brooklyn goombah calls someone a ‘pretty boy,’” I said to the crowd. “He’s calling the guy attractive and young. Insults like that say a lot more about the insulter than the insultee.”
There were a lot more laughs than political discourse, but one statement made me blow a gasket. Professor Mary Corey was discussing the history of cool. She had it right for the most part. It began in the mid-50s with movies such as The Wild One and Rebel Without a Cause. Marlon Brando put the motorcycle-riding WWII vets on the map, and then James Dean defined teenagers as an independent demographic with its own set of rules. Since then, we’ve had these ten-year blips of subcultures where kids invent new music and fashion, and have a great time sowing their wild oats.
The anger began when Corey brought up Normal Mailer’s essay “The White Negro,” where he talks about cool culture pre-40s as white people mimicking blacks, but I became enraged when Corey twisted it into a smug attack on the “bourgeoisie” and how youth culture was always about ripping off the poor. I interrupted her by asking if there was anything more bourgeois than being a professor—being paid to pontificate about leisure movements and then taking off every seventh year to go ruminate in Paris. Hearing today’s kids called mindless consumers drives me nuts. They get their clothes at secondhand shops, and the ones they do buy have fewer logos than when I was their age. They don’t buy music. They steal it. They can create their own band out of nothing by mixing samples and genres and new instruments, and they get these songs to their fans without a record label. They’re not stealing anything from blacks. They are black. Mailer’s essay is a half-century old, and today’s incarnation of cool is more inclusive than any before it. We all know how misogynist the hippies really were. The Free Love movement was only a groovy way to take advantage of women. Punk pretended to be open to everyone, but an Afro Mohawk was about as common as a well-respected white rapper. Today’s kids couldn’t care less who’s black, gay, rich or poor.
“Which brings me to my next point,” I said, “Where did this theory begin that hipsters are all rich posers?” I’ve met thousands of them over the years and have yet to meet a soul who lives off a trust fund. (I’ve met plenty of trust-fund kids, but they’re more into being fabulous in Monaco than going to see a punk band.) They have the same amount of money young people have always had: barely any. They don’t drink Pabst because they’re trying to appropriate working-class culture. They’re drinking it because it’s cheap. They drive track bikes because they don’t get stolen. They listen to iPods because it’s the most musical bang for your buck. When you look into modern youth culture and examine all the criticisms, one truth becomes impossible to ignore: Today’s kids are the best. They are savvier, better connected, more informed, less consumerist and more capable of everything—including partying—than my generation or yours. Believe me, cassette tapes were a fucking pain in the ass.
We like to pretend things are getting worse and our entire civilization is on the verge of collapse, but the opposite is true. We’ve never been wealthier. Food’s never been cheaper or more abundant. Water’s never been cleaner. The air’s the least polluted it’s been in 100 years. We’ve never lived longer. It only makes sense that cool would follow suit. Instead of griping about it and trying to find ways to rain on their parade, it’s time academics and culture critics stood aside and let the kids have some fun. Being cool has never been cooler, and if you think their shirts are too loud, you’re too old.
-GAVIN McINNES
UPDATE: The retarded notion that the whole Hipster thing is rooted in some kind of racism is gaining traction. Most notably in this ridiculous New York Mag piece. After the UCLA talk, I asked the N+1 guy what the fuck that’s all about and he said it had something to do with gentrification. Then he added that the result of their debate last year was there WASN’T a link and “Besides, the whole thing was a joke anyway.” Which is precisely what I’m screaming.
For the record, I think NY Media hates hipsters because these journalists are predominantly nerds and nerds hate any kind of “cool culture” because it makes them feel left out. Next time you read an article about how evil and irrelevant cool people are, Google image the author.
Peanut's Take Although I have friends who are self-identified hipsters, I've always been somewhat suspicious and resentful of them. I admittedly bought the "trust fund kiddies" story hook, line, and sinker. Gavin McInnes not only has made me more of a fan of hipsters than I was before (not saying much), but it's given me a new perspective on myself.
We like to pretend things are getting worse and our entire civilization is on the verge of collapse, but the opposite is true. We’ve never been wealthier. Food’s never been cheaper or more abundant. Water’s never been cleaner. The air’s the least polluted it’s been in 100 years. We’ve never lived longer. It only makes sense that cool would follow suit. Instead of griping about it and trying to find ways to rain on their parade, it’s time academics and culture critics stood aside and let the kids have some fun. Being cool has never been cooler, and if you think their shirts are too loud, you’re too old.
I completely agree with this. I know so many people who spend way too much precious time and energy moaning over how the world's going to shit and people don't care and Western culture is decadent and crumbling and there are no new ideas anymore and this is all contributing to the fall of society/Earth/the human race as we know it. Instead of pointing at hipsters (or video games, or consumerism, etc.) as the essence of what is wrong with society, I think more people should actually look at what these "evil influences" are and understand them better, and realize that they're here to stay, and work with them.
For the record, I think NY Media hates hipsters because these journalists are predominantly nerds and nerds hate any kind of “cool culture” because it makes them feel left out. Next time you read an article about how evil and irrelevant cool people are, Google image the author.
It hurts because it's true, at least from my perspective. I am a huge nerd who largely prefers to surround herself with huge nerds - why else am I in Silicon Valley? - but there have certainly been times when I've daydreamed wistfully about being able to pull off a spiky haircut and aviators and this-and-that vintage and thigh high leather boots or day-glo chucks and just walk down the street like I don't give a fuck about anything. Does this mean I'm going to drop everything and move to Williamsburg, Brooklyn to shop thrift stores all day and party at night using various controlled substances? Of course not. I'd much rather play ladder games 4 hours a day on battlenet and spend other time on non-thrift-store-related things that are more meaningful to me. Does this mean that my vague resentment against hipsters was rooted in jealousy? Absolutely. Count me guilty of sour grapes.
I want to hear people's thoughts on this. Have you had encounters with hipsters, or are you even a hipster yourself? What have you found?
Edit: People have noted that there was a similar thread about hipsterdom posted at the end of September in this venerable forum. Since that OP was about hipsters being terrible, I'd argue that this is the belated response to that sentiment. However, there needs to be something new added to the discussion.
There are two things that make the hipster subculture unique. One: They’re better than their predecessors. Two: Everyone says they’re worse. [...] When you look into modern youth culture and examine all the criticisms, one truth becomes impossible to ignore: Today’s kids are the best. They are savvier, better connected, more informed, less consumerist and more capable of everything—including partying—than my generation or yours. Believe me, cassette tapes were a fucking pain in the ass.
Are hipsters better than previous "cool" subcultures, as this author claims?
the problem with hipsters in my experience is their willingness to be douchebags to people who aren't hipsters. these my just be the hipsters around here though.
On November 09 2010 09:07 Caller wrote: the problem with hipsters in my experience is their willingness to be douchebags to people who aren't hipsters. these my just be the hipsters around here though.
Ahh, Caller's back!
Anyway. I do dislike a lot of hipsters but I also get called a hipster a lot. The problem I have with hipsters is the same problem you do. But I don't have a problem with the culture (except for the dead-endedness of it).
One thing he completely missed was that even a large part of the hipster's generation can't stand them. Or at least none of the people I know can stand them, though that might be the case of similar people or something.
Just like how the emo kids couldn't be stood earlier in the decade by most of their age group, hipsters are the same.
Different look, same ol shit.
I'll admit I haven't met/seen a lot of hipsters, but the ones I have met have are usually annoying, and look down on people. They all sort of come off as elitist, pretending what they listen to is the best (though every genre has these types, their entire movement seems to be like that). I don't believe I'm influenced by the fact that I'm a nerd and I'm jealous (seriously? Basically every nerd I've met has no problems being a nerd), and not because of what I listen to either because really, because I don't believe in looking down on someone just because they like a certain type of music, sure I disparage the music, but I don't disparage the person.
It depends, in any culture or movement there will still be a diversity of people. I have met hipsters who are just slightly better dressed trailer trash, I have also met hipsters who are quite intelligent.
The thing is most of that inteligent subset, dont really indentify themselves as hipsters, they just are who they are. If you aked them "Are you a hipster?" they would just shrug. They just are who they are on a daily basis, they dont really care about putting on an image to the outside world. They jsut follow their tastes, and hang people with similar tasted.
Whereas the trailer trash is trying to stick in in your face with their "yeah im a hipster yeah look at me, im so good" routine.
Be who you feel like being. People have different tastes and enjoy different crowds. No problem with that, until you start demeaning other people who have tastes that differ from yours; then you are just degenerate trash, no matter what "cultural movement" you identify with.
On November 09 2010 09:13 IntoTheWow wrote: Ugh... Im going to sound dumb. But what's a hipster?
The definition of hipster is pretty fuzzy, so this isn't a dumb question. Here's what wikipedia says:
Hipster is a slang term that first appeared in the 1940s, and was revived in the 1990s and 2000s often to describe types of young, recently settled urban middle class adults and older teenagers with interests in non-mainstream fashion and culture, particularly alternative music, indie rock, independent film, magazines such as Vice and Clash, and websites like Pitchfork Media.[1] In some contexts, hipsters are also referred to as scenesters.[2]
"Hipster" has been used in sometimes contradictory ways, making it difficult to precisely define "hipster culture" because it is a "mutating, trans-Atlantic melting pot of styles, tastes and behavior[s]."[1] One commentator argues that "hipsterism fetishizes the authentic" elements of all of the "fringe movements of the postwar era—beat, hippie, punk, even grunge," and draws on the "cultural stores of every unmelted ethnicity" and "gay style", and "regurgitates it with a winking inauthenticity."[3]
For a more visual definition of hipster, use google image search or the excellent website latfh.com.
Every time I see somebody riding a fixed gear bike around I want to drop kick them off of it. Every time one of them comes into a local joint and orders PBR to be ironic I want to drop the jukebox on them.
I don't have anger or rage issues. I have hipster issues.
We had an article about this a month ago. I'm pretty sure nothing new will come out of this one. Pseudo bohemian kids with money to spend thanks to their parents. What else is new.
On November 09 2010 09:26 Emon_ wrote: We had an article about this a month ago. I'm pretty sure nothing new will come out of this one. Pseudo bohemian kids with money to spend thanks to their parents. What else is new.
On November 09 2010 09:25 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Every time I see somebody riding a fixed gear bike around I want to drop kick them off of it. Every time one of them comes into a local joint and orders PBR to be ironic I want to drop the jukebox on them.
I don't have anger or rage issues. I have hipster issues.
i order pbr's because they're cheap. what the fuck is ironic about that?
This guy Gavin McInnes is dead right. Nothing make me roll my eyes quicker than people ragging on hipsters. If you don't like them it's probably because you wish you were one. They are fucking cool and everyone wants to be cool.
The most interesting statement here is actually his claim that hipsters are better than hippies, beats, etc. I don't know about that. Youth culture has pretty much always been about the same things, like McInnes said, so I'm not sure if hipsters are better by any measure. PBR is not the cheapest beer, fixies are not the cheapest bikes (and they most certainly get stolen), iPods are not the most bang for your buck. Hipsters usually have these things not because they are affordable, as McInnes suggests, but because they are identifiers, which is totally okay. We all have them. Hipsters are just maintaining the youth culture status quo until the next thing comes along.
On November 09 2010 09:25 debasers wrote: My music taste if pretty hipsterish, i am kinda elitist in many aspects, but i'm not a hipster, because hipsters are douchebags
this sums it up perfectly. hipster has no meaning except to be a chameleon insult that serves whatever purpose you need at the moment.
already this is treading the same ground as last month's hipster thread.
hipsters aren't experts of music and fashion. they don't look for quality, they look for exclusivity. the best reference isn't rewarded, but the most obscure one.
On November 09 2010 09:30 gLyo wrote: This guy Gavin McInnes is dead right. Nothing make me roll my eyes quicker than people ragging on hipsters. If you don't like them it's probably because you wish you were one. They are fucking cool and everyone wants to be cool.
On November 09 2010 09:30 gLyo wrote: The most interesting statement here is actually his claim that hipsters are better than hippies, beats, etc. I don't know about that. Youth culture has pretty much always been about the same things, like McInnes said, so I'm not sure if hipsters are better by any measure. PBR is not the cheapest beer, fixies are not the cheapest bikes (and they most certainly get stolen), iPods are not the most bang for your buck. Hipsters usually have these things not because they are affordable, as McInnes suggests, but because they are identifiers, which is totally okay. We all have them. Hipsters are just maintaining the youth culture status quo until the next thing comes along.
This is a really good point. I'll note that in the OP.
I was actually unaware that there was a hipster thread from last month, although I guess from now on I'll try to search key words in anything I want to post so that I'm not being completely redundant (j/k) (not really). @kinky: thanks for linking.
On November 09 2010 09:30 gLyo wrote: This guy Gavin McInnes is dead right. Nothing make me roll my eyes quicker than people ragging on hipsters. If you don't like them it's probably because you wish you were one. They are fucking cool and everyone wants to be cool.
Is this serious?
I'm too used to trolling so I can't tell.
If it is then... *BOGGLE*
Yeah, I'm serious. Hipsters are the current in a long(ish) line of what most people would consider "cool" youth cultures. McInnes mentions this in the article, if you managed to read it. I don't mean subjective cool, like how TeamLiquid thinks StarCraft is cool. I mean objective cool; youth, rebellion, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll, that sort of thing. It's a primal thing, I think. A lot of people, deep down (or not), are envious of the perceived freedom that being "cool" (being a hipster) brings.
On November 09 2010 09:26 Emon_ wrote: We had an article about this a month ago. I'm pretty sure nothing new will come out of this one. Pseudo bohemian kids with money to spend thanks to their parents. What else is new.
This is actually a great description. I also love how so many hipsters brush off criticism by thinking "Oh, they just want to be like us, but they cant. We're just to cool" Really helps prove the whole douchebag point
Invariably their focus is on "being different" and freedom. Yet they accomplish this by creating a standard for one to follow to identify himself as a hipster - dress a certain way, listen to certain music, share this view of stuff.
It just plays to people's self-involved need to feel "special" and say "I'm not like everybody else". Anyone with half a mind can see right through the glittery facade. Lame.
On November 09 2010 09:30 gLyo wrote: This guy Gavin McInnes is dead right. Nothing make me roll my eyes quicker than people ragging on hipsters. If you don't like them it's probably because you wish you were one. They are fucking cool and everyone wants to be cool.
Is this serious?
I'm too used to trolling so I can't tell.
If it is then... *BOGGLE*
Yeah, I'm serious. Hipsters are the current in a long(ish) line of what most people would consider "cool" youth cultures. McInnes mentions this in the article, if you managed to read it. I don't mean subjective cool, like how TeamLiquid thinks StarCraft is cool. I mean objective cool; youth, rebellion, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll, that sort of thing. It's a primal thing, I think. A lot of people, deep down (or not), are envious of the perceived freedom that being "cool" (being a hipster) brings.
+1
I wonder if there's a hipster out there who secretly wishes he or she were better at video games, but then surfs a site like TL and realizes that they (plural pronoun but it's better than he/she) would have to spend way too much time getting to know the game intimately and probably would be called a noob if they ever tried to post about it and so decides not to because they're better at being a hipster than being a gamer. I'd love to talk to that person.
I was always under the impression that hipsters were essentially people who figured what was just unpopular enough to be obscure, but not so much to be "uncool", and then latched on to it.
A lot of people got mad at the Scott Pilgrilm movie, for instance, because there was a feeling by some people that it was a "hipster" movie. Which is to say, the sort of people in that movie were not "real" gamers, who had played games for years, and genuinely loved them - but rather, people who had the guile to notice that video games (in particular, retro gaming, such as NES and SNES gaming) were "the in thing". The outrage came from the concept that these people had not gone through both the good and the bad (because being gamer hasn't really been a real recipe for being cool until recently), and that they were just taking on the benefits of being a gamer without the drawbacks.
I called the people who claimed this dumb, even though I could kinda see the merit. Mostly because I simply don't see it being acted out in practice - I just DON'T see hipsters on a daily basis. I couldn't ID one if you wanted me to. I like to listen to kinda-but-not-really-obscure turntablsm albums (Blockhead and DJ Shadow, etc) ,but this does this make ME a hipster? Hell if I know.
Also, to claim that it's just "nerrrrrrrrrrrrrrds" who dislike hipsters strikes me as a low-blow, and even if I don't dislike hipsters on principle, I do dislike the guy who said that.
On November 09 2010 10:05 Mr. Cream wrote: I was always under the impression that hipsters were essentially people who figured what was just unpopular enough to be obscure, but not so much to be "uncool", and then latched on to it.
A lot of people got mad at the Scott Pilgrilm movie, for instance, because there was a feeling by some people that it was a "hipster" movie. Which is to say, the sort of people in that movie were not "real" gamers, who had played games for years, and genuinely loved them - but rather, people who had the guile to notice that video games (in particular, retro gaming, such as NES and SNES gaming) were "the in thing". The outrage came from the concept that these people had not gone through both the good and the bad (because being gamer hasn't really been a real recipe for being cool until recently), and that they were just taking on the benefits of being a gamer without the drawbacks.
I called the people who claimed this dumb, even though I could kinda see the merit. Mostly because I simply don't see it being acted out in practice - I just DON'T see hipsters on a daily basis. I couldn't ID one if you wanted me to. I like to listen to kinda-but-not-really-obscure turntablsm albums (Blockhead and DJ Shadow, etc) ,but this does this make ME a hipster? Hell if I know.
Also, to claim that it's just "nerrrrrrrrrrrrrrds" who dislike hipsters strikes me as a low-blow, and even if I don't dislike hipsters on principle, I do dislike the guy who said that.
That's a really interesting point about the Scott Pilgrim movie - I wonder if, soon, Atari sets and NES game controller belts will become part of hipsterdom.
The author isn't claiming that it's "just" nerds who dislike hipsters - it's actually a whole lot of people who dislike hipsters, which is why he's felt compelled to write the article, I think. I pointed out the nerds thing because I particularly relate to it, and maybe other people on TL will too. It is a low blow in a sense, but it's only a low blow if you're sensitive to it, which probably means (definitely means, in my case) that it's true on some level.
mmm every generation makes up a name to call a sub culture group to be able to generalize people in a dismissive way. every generation claims that the previous generation was stupid and that the future generation is even worse.
If you pay close attention, practically every "good" thing about "kids today" applies to all of us, not just hipsters. Well, except PBR, but you could substitute that with any other cheap beer.
In general, people who end up following trends like this are just there for the scene. There isn't really a defining message of hipsters, but in reality, the defining messages of the hippies had more to do with clean-cut college protesters then it did with naked people on LSD.
Here's my take on why hipsters get so much hate. It's not because of what they wear and not because of what music they listen to. People hate them because of their attitudes; just like how nerds are stereotyped as being socially inept, hipsters are stereotyped as being arrogant, elitist douchebags.
Posts like these just keep on reinforcing this stereotype.
This guy Gavin McInnes is dead right. Nothing make me roll my eyes quicker than people ragging on hipsters. If you don't like them it's probably because you wish you were one. They are fucking cool and everyone wants to be cool.
I find it pretty ironic that hipster defenders are picking on nerds (most definitely due to the stereotypes fed to them by the media) and then on the same note whine about how the media treats hipsters unfairly.
On November 09 2010 10:23 Stripe wrote: Here's my take on why hipsters get so much hate. It's not because of what they wear and not because of what music they listen to. People hate them because of their attitudes; just like how nerds are stereotyped as being socially inept, hipsters are stereotyped as being arrogant, elitist douchebags.
Posts like these just keep on reinforcing this stereotype.
This guy Gavin McInnes is dead right. Nothing make me roll my eyes quicker than people ragging on hipsters. If you don't like them it's probably because you wish you were one. They are fucking cool and everyone wants to be cool.
I find it pretty ironic that hipster defenders are picking on nerds (most definitely due to the stereotypes fed to them by the media) and then on the same note whine about how the media treats hipsters unfairly.
I am not that familiar with hipsters, I could care less what people do with their lives ... but the one person I know that has been referred to as a hipster is an extremely arrogant and extremely elitist, more so than anyone else that I know, I'm really happy she lives on the other side of the country and I don't see her often
On November 09 2010 10:04 Reason.SC2 wrote: Trendy subcultures like this are oh so lame.
Invariably their focus is on "being different" and freedom. Yet they accomplish this by creating a standard for one to follow to identify himself as a hipster - dress a certain way, listen to certain music, share this view of stuff.
It just plays to people's self-involved need to feel "special" and say "I'm not like everybody else". Anyone with half a mind can see right through the glittery facade. Lame.
This pretty much sums up my thoughts. Hipsters are simply a group of people trying so hard to be different and unique in order to feel special but end up falling to the conformity they tried to avoid.
On November 09 2010 09:30 gLyo wrote: This guy Gavin McInnes is dead right. Nothing make me roll my eyes quicker than people ragging on hipsters. If you don't like them it's probably because you wish you were one. They are fucking cool and everyone wants to be cool.
No self-respecting person out of high school says "look at me, I'm so fucking cool." Grow up.
i think people are over generalizing hipsters. just like how some asians dislike math and some black people dislike fried chicken, cool hipsters can exist. hipsters don't bother me, i live in san francisco.
I hate hipsters... Every single time I see some douchey little 16-year-old wearing a chain with a Super Mario/Duck Hunt cartridge around his neck as if he's ever played the game, I want to kick him in the face. I'll concede that a lot of the "retro gaming" resentment comes from the fact that I was part of the generation that grew up playing those games and experiencing that gaming culture as it happened with the consoles and in the arcades. Then a decade or so later, along comes some little prick using my childhood memories as a fashion statement. Unreasonable anger? Absolutely... and I don't care.
While I haven't met a whole lot of trust fund hipsters (I do know a few...), I've met a whole lot that live in a rich suburb with parents that makes well over 300k a year...
If there's one thing I will admit I'm jealous about, it's the fact that they don't have to work and they have no debt. (At least most of the ones I know. I can't speak for the greater majority of them...)
As for whether they are "better" than previous trendy subcultures I would certainly say that they are better off, but that's because the whole world is better off. They don't need to buy music because we have MP3's now, which weren't available to previous subcultures. They can easily record and distribute it without record labels because we have dirt cheap and amazing recording equipment available today and the internet has networked the world in a way no previous generation has ever seen. I don't know how you could use that as an argument to say that they are somehow "better" than previous generations since such things weren't even available back then. It's a pretty stupid argument to make if only for that reason. I suppose my question would be, "Have they made more of what they have than the previous generations did of what they had?" and "What's the legacy that they will ultimately leave behind?"
I don't think we're really going to be able to answer these questions until the current brand of "hipsterdom" (or whatever) has come and gone and by then, I suspect that they'll be the ones griping about some new group of douchebags who find a way to up the notch of douchebaggery.
On November 09 2010 10:35 LegendaryZ wrote: I suppose my question would be, "Have they made more of what they have than the previous generations did of what they had?" and "What's the legacy that they will ultimately leave behind?"
I don't think we're really going to be able to answer these questions until the current brand of "hipsterdom" (or whatever) has come and gone and by then, I suspect that they'll be the ones griping about some new group of douchebags who find a way to up the notch of douchebaggery.
Note that the author specifically addresses your questions:
“But what about their legacy?” I was recently asked by New York magazine. “What will they have left behind after it’s all said and done?” This question gets on my nerves. “Music and fashion,” I answered incredulously. Since when are young people responsible for leaving us with anything more? Have you heard their politics? I don’t want these people voting. I want them doing what they do best: Fun. The greasers were about rock ’n’ roll and making out in rumble seats. The beatniks gave us some good books, but they were mostly about shocking their parents by dancing with Negroes. The only thing the mods cared about outside of dancing and getting laid was fighting Elvis fans. Boomers, who are masters at glorifying their past, insist they stopped a war, but we all know it was Kissinger’s relentless bombing that ended it. Hippies were horny stoners. Though I was one of them, I’m happy to admit punks were more preening peacocks with guitars than anarchists smashing the state. Rap evolved from parties in the South Bronx. The list goes on, and it’s always just teenagers partying.
I believe one of the author's main points is that questions like the ones you posed are not very relevant to youth culture, or at least the vast majority of it.
No, he doesn't address my questions at all. His arguments all base themselves on the fact that the world has progressed, not that subculture has progressed any further than a previous generation. If he's going to make a claim that they're "better" at what they do than a previous generation, then you've got to bring up something about them as a culture that's better than their predecessors, not just the things they happen to have access to.
If it's irrelevant to evaluate youth culture, then why is he doing it in the first place? Obviously it is relevant because youth culture matters. Those parties in the South Bronx turned out to have a huge impact on the world as did the hippies with their sex and drugs, even if it was just "teenagers partying." If these questions didn't matter, people wouldn't be discussing them in such depth.
Understanding ourselves and the things that influence the world around us gives us important information in showing us where we're headed as a society. To marginalize the impact they'll have on the world to "music and fashion" is just horribly misguided in my opinion.
On November 09 2010 09:30 gLyo wrote: This guy Gavin McInnes is dead right. Nothing make me roll my eyes quicker than people ragging on hipsters. If you don't like them it's probably because you wish you were one. They are fucking cool and everyone wants to be cool.
No self-respecting person out of high school says "look at me, I'm so fucking cool." Grow up.
This is not what my post meant, and I am kind of offended that you told me to grow up and implied that am still in high school.
I simply meant that hipsters are cool (in the classic sense, you know? I explained this more in another post) and people want to be cool because it represents, essentially, freedom.
On November 09 2010 09:30 gLyo wrote: If you don't like them it's probably because you wish you were one. They are fucking cool and everyone wants to be cool.
This is just such a stupid statement. You can't say something like this and expect not to get flamed.
I don't get the whole "being cool" or "belonging to a group" thing with young people. I'm an eighteen year old college kid, but I despise other people my age. I just want to play video games, and watch anime and sports. And I'm totally happy with my life as it is.
I went to high school with a lot of kids who could be considered hipsters. I grew up in a pretty well-off city though. And while not all of them are douches, most of them were pretty poorly dressed fashion- wise, IMO.
I don't get the hate for hipsters. Let them do what they wanna do; if someone's a douche they're a douche. Doesn't matter if they're a hipster or not. It's just like if I hated the guy above me for enjoying anime (which I don't); I don't particularly enjoy anime, I don't really care about it. Does that mean it's OK for me to hate it? Not really. Does it mean that I should hate the fanbase? I don't think so, as they've never harmed me directly or otherwise. People are so intolerant.
On November 09 2010 11:13 Ferrose wrote: I don't get the whole "being cool" or "belonging to a group" thing with young people. I'm an eighteen year old college kid, but I despise other people my age. I just want to play video games, and watch anime and sports. And I'm totally happy with my life as it is.
On November 09 2010 09:30 gLyo wrote: This guy Gavin McInnes is dead right. Nothing make me roll my eyes quicker than people ragging on hipsters. If you don't like them it's probably because you wish you were one. They are fucking cool and everyone wants to be cool.
No self-respecting person out of high school says "look at me, I'm so fucking cool." Grow up.
This is not what my post meant, and I am kind of offended that you told me to grow up and implied that am still in high school.
I simply meant that hipsters are cool (in the classic sense, you know? I explained this more in another post) and people want to be cool because it represents, essentially, freedom.
Explain how being cool represents freedom and how do you define freedom.
On November 09 2010 11:13 Ferrose wrote: I don't get the whole "being cool" or "belonging to a group" thing with young people. I'm an eighteen year old college kid, but I despise other people my age. I just want to play video games, and watch anime and sports. And I'm totally happy with my life as it is.
On November 09 2010 10:49 LegendaryZ wrote: No, he doesn't address my questions at all. His arguments all base themselves on the fact that the world has progressed, not that subculture has progressed any further than a previous generation. If he's going to make a claim that they're "better" at what they do than a previous generation, then you've got to bring up something about them as a culture that's better than their predecessors, not just the things they happen to have access to.
If it's irrelevant to evaluate youth culture, then why is he doing it in the first place? Obviously it is relevant because youth culture matters. Those parties in the South Bronx turned out to have a huge impact on the world as did the hippies with their sex and drugs, even if it was just "teenagers partying." If these questions didn't matter, people wouldn't be discussing them in such depth.
Understanding ourselves and the things that influence the world around us gives us important information in showing us where we're headed as a society. To marginalize the impact they'll have on the world to "music and fashion" is just horribly misguided in my opinion.
I would respectfully point out that perhaps one of the biggest reasons they are "better" at what they do (according to the author) is that the world has progressed, and that the hipsters have a culture of taking advantage of that progression in an interesting way - a way which is very efficient and creative towards achieving the goal of youth culture, which he interprets as just having fun.
It is definitely not irrelevant to evaluate youth culture. Youth culture is not irrelevant, so it deserves some kind of evaluation. I think the author is saying that many people are going about that evaluation in a way that doesn't see youth culture as an end in and of itself instead of a means to an end (destroying/uplifting the world, etc.). Your point that, in hindsight, youth culture CAN have a major impact on society/the world is well taken. It is too early to have that kind of hindsight insight, since it's still going on now. I think his point is that it's a mistake to try to have these kinds of insights now (which is what a lot of people are doing), because it unfairly makes hipsters out to be some kind of disease upon society.
Certainly there are parts of youth culture that have a significant legacy - there are and always will be young people who do incredible things that have an immediate (or nearly immediate) impact on the world. I think McInnes is saying that trying to judge all of youth culture by this standard is a mistake.
On November 09 2010 09:30 gLyo wrote: This guy Gavin McInnes is dead right. Nothing make me roll my eyes quicker than people ragging on hipsters. If you don't like them it's probably because you wish you were one. They are fucking cool and everyone wants to be cool.
No self-respecting person out of high school says "look at me, I'm so fucking cool." Grow up.
This is not what my post meant, and I am kind of offended that you told me to grow up and implied that am still in high school.
I simply meant that hipsters are cool (in the classic sense, you know? I explained this more in another post) and people want to be cool because it represents, essentially, freedom.
Explain how being cool represents freedom and how do you define freedom.
OK – remember that Family Guy episode where Meg gets asked out by the guy who plays by his own rules and nobody else's (not even his own)? That's cool, that's freedom. That guy is obviously a parody of "cool youth culture." A parody of a hipster.
Obviously being Cool doesn't really grant that sort of freedom but I believe that it is the lure. Everybody wants it at least a little, and the ones who get upset about it are the ones who want it the most, just like anything else.
On November 09 2010 11:13 Ferrose wrote: I don't get the whole "being cool" or "belonging to a group" thing with young people. I'm an eighteen year old college kid, but I despise other people my age. I just want to play video games, and watch anime and sports. And I'm totally happy with my life as it is.
That is incredibly sad.
Why is it sad?
I dont' mean to derail thread, but cmon dude. You just want to play video games and watch cartoons while in college.
I guess it's not fair for me to judge. It's your life to waste, not mine.
It's funny how people label one another. That's more shallow than the stereotype you're refering to.
I have many homies who would fall under the category hipster, I don't listen to the same music as them, as for that matter I don't care, they're still cool people. I don't believe in generic stereotypes, like if somebody talks like an elitist about their music and shit, that's them, individually. It's pathetic to wrap people in a group and label them.
It seems to me the term hipster is being bounced around, it has totally changed from what it is meant to be. Hipster has gone mainstream, so its hypocritical to a certain extent... I mean majority of these wannabe "hipsters" nowadays are just in it for the fashion trend, not the overall hipster culture.
I think we nerds hate hipsters a little bit extra because they're stealing our shit. I've been dressing bad my entire life and now suddenly the cool kids are doing it on purpose, yet doing it in a very specific way to still exclude us. It's like if the cool kids suddenly decided that using wheelchairs is the coolest thing ever, but only certain old, cool wheelchairs, and all the paraplegics are like "WTF?"
On November 09 2010 11:13 Ferrose wrote: I don't get the whole "being cool" or "belonging to a group" thing with young people. I'm an eighteen year old college kid, but I despise other people my age. I just want to play video games, and watch anime and sports. And I'm totally happy with my life as it is.
That is incredibly sad.
Why is it sad?
I dont' mean to derail thread, but cmon dude. You just want to play video games and watch cartoons while in college.
I guess it's not fair for me to judge. It's your life to waste, not mine.
What's so bad about playing video games? I play them in my free time. I honestly don't see how that's wasting my life. What would you rather me do with my time?
And I think you should get a better understanding of anime before associating them with childish cartoons.
On November 09 2010 11:13 Ferrose wrote: I don't get the whole "being cool" or "belonging to a group" thing with young people. I'm an eighteen year old college kid, but I despise other people my age. I just want to play video games, and watch anime and sports. And I'm totally happy with my life as it is.
That is incredibly sad.
Why is it sad?
I dont' mean to derail thread, but cmon dude. You just want to play video games and watch cartoons while in college.
I guess it's not fair for me to judge. It's your life to waste, not mine.
Well said. It is pretty sad, dude.
I think the real concern (rather than "being cool") is that social interaction with people around you is necessary. I mean, you're on this forum to glean hopefully some degree of social interaction (other than just learning about StarCraft...right?).
But yeah, I understand not wanting to "be cool" or whatever, but building relationships with people is kind of important. Just a little bit.
On November 09 2010 11:13 Ferrose wrote: I don't get the whole "being cool" or "belonging to a group" thing with young people. I'm an eighteen year old college kid, but I despise other people my age. I just want to play video games, and watch anime and sports. And I'm totally happy with my life as it is.
That is incredibly sad.
Why is it sad?
I dont' mean to derail thread, but cmon dude. You just want to play video games and watch cartoons while in college.
I guess it's not fair for me to judge. It's your life to waste, not mine.
"waste"?
you're wasting yours too. you're gonna die eventually. eventually everything you did becomes inconsequential. why would you say anything to anyone else about how they live their life. there's nothing wrong with someone doing the things they enjoy while they're in college.
Most ppl here who defend hipsters ... I would bet money that they are hipsters themselves.
Edit: Ppl might have hipster music tastes ... but if they don't do the skinny jeans and black rimmed glasses and the whole package ... I don't count them as real hipsters. You have to have the whole hipster package to be called a hipster imo.
On November 09 2010 11:13 Ferrose wrote: I don't get the whole "being cool" or "belonging to a group" thing with young people. I'm an eighteen year old college kid, but I despise other people my age. I just want to play video games, and watch anime and sports. And I'm totally happy with my life as it is.
That is incredibly sad.
Why is it sad?
I dont' mean to derail thread, but cmon dude. You just want to play video games and watch cartoons while in college.
I guess it's not fair for me to judge. It's your life to waste, not mine.
Well said. It is pretty sad, dude.
I think the real concern (rather than "being cool") is that social interaction with people around you is necessary. I mean, you're on this forum to glean hopefully some degree of social interaction (other than just learning about StarCraft...right?).
But yeah, I understand not wanting to "be cool" or whatever, but building relationships with people is kind of important. Just a little bit.
Yep, I'm a completely antisocial shut-in who has no friends, and doesn't ever talk to anyone outside of TL.net.
All cultures throughout time have equivalent youth culture activities. Its nothing new. What surprises me is how people are so shocked that young people are dressing up and acting goofy. Thats been going on for forever. Its not like being off the wall is some kind of thing they came up with a week ago. Its old as dirt. Hipsters are actually somewhat behind the times if you look at it from certain perspectives. If you are just now "becoming a hipster" then you are arriving quite late to the party.
Another thing that sort of bothers me is that there are people who just have strange taste. And they might grow up in a town with only 500 people and be the only weird one. And then one day a similar look comes to the mall and its given a name like "hipster", and now that person who spent years in personal anguish over being so different is now just lumped in with all the cliche "hipsters". Meanwhile, that person was only doing what they always have done, and following their own personal taste and heart. Its kinda of a shame to see a kaleidoscope of human beings made into a singular group and its most obvious traits mocked and labeled.
I say, embrace the hipsters. Why? Because they really are just the same old human fears and emotions and doubts. They arent really any different than normal people. In fact, its probably alot of fear and doubt that fuels such a narrow social identity. Besides, i know a TON of these kinds of people and really they are harmless. There are people here saying that those excluded from their hipster click are jealous... there is nothing to be jealous of. Ive witnessed these peoples lives and they arent all smiles and chic irony. In fact, most of them have minimal creative skills and lack any kind of abstract vision other than the ones predetermined by the current style they see all around them. You gotta remember that for every genuinely odd person in their group, there are 500 that are just normal people playing along so that they can have some place to feel like they belong. And instead of mocking that weakness, maybe its better to just let them play out their life how they want. In time, everyone drops their act.
Im somewhat bothered by the guy saying that modern young people are more hip and connected. I dont think being able to tweet your bowel movements counts as being hip. Nothing makes me more ill than when people confuse circumstance with substance. Yeah, modern people have alot of tricks thanks to technology, but that doesnt mean they are any more aware or capable. In fact, limitations usually spawn the best results. If young people really had something figured out these days, then where is the modern Pink Floyd? Where is the modern Beatles? Are there even any great movies or music coming out? Hardly. Its very very rare that culture spawns genius these days. Youd think that a bunch of super hip happy free thinkers would have some ideas but they actually seem to have less ideas than the 60s generation did, or even the early 90s generation. People need to stop confusing capability with actual content. Yeah, modern people have the world at their fingertips, but then how come so much of whats being created is weak drivel?
Remember not to give credit where it isnt due and remember that appearance isnt everything. All the greatest most unique and hip people ive ever known were rarely ever the ones who wore the costume that fooled everyone into thinking they were. Action matters, content matters. Fashion is what you bust out when you dont have any good ideas and need to cheat.
On November 09 2010 11:13 Ferrose wrote: I don't get the whole "being cool" or "belonging to a group" thing with young people. I'm an eighteen year old college kid, but I despise other people my age. I just want to play video games, and watch anime and sports. And I'm totally happy with my life as it is.
That is incredibly sad.
Why is it sad?
I dont' mean to derail thread, but cmon dude. You just want to play video games and watch cartoons while in college.
I guess it's not fair for me to judge. It's your life to waste, not mine.
"waste"?
you're wasting yours too. you're gonna die eventually. eventually everything you did becomes inconsequential. why would you say anything to anyone else about how they live their life. there's nothing wrong with someone doing the things they enjoy while they're in college.
You're right. People should be able to do whatever they enjoy while in college. If that means become a hipster that hates everything popular, thats ok too.
But i believe the college experience is a social experience, one that cannot be found anywhere else in society. For most people it's an awesome four years where you really expand your social network. For others.. Well i guess it's one's choice to exclude oneself from that.
You can play video games, watch cartoons, whenever, they will never disappear. But one's college experience only comes and goes once.
I'm going to stop derailing this thread. If you want to flame, PM me.
Whats wrong with hipsters... around here there aren't alot unless i really stupid. And hipsters are just like a fad if i'm correct. People involved in Esports like us could be considered hipsters.
Nobody admits to being a hipster. But anyone will admit there are hipsters.
And I see it more as a mindset than a rigid subculture, like I remember hearing the term years ago already, even if not nearly as widespread as now and a bit different guys on surface, but refering to same type of people. People who strive to be hip/cool as much as possible.
On November 09 2010 12:04 Mellotron wrote: This article makes a mountain out of a molehill.
All cultures throughout time have equivalent youth culture activities. Its nothing new. What surprises me is how people are so shocked that young people are dressing up and acting goofy. Thats been going on for forever. Its not like being off the wall is some kind of thing they came up with a week ago. Its old as dirt. Hipsters are actually somewhat behind the times if you look at it from certain perspectives. If you are just now "becoming a hipster" then you are arriving quite late to the party.
No there hasnt been much youth culture of the current form for too long, starting around 40 or 50s. People just moved from children to adults too fast before then. Sure you had people who can be called youths but they didnt form such strong subcultures.
Im somewhat bothered by the guy saying that modern young people are more hip and connected. I dont think being able to tweet your bowel movements counts as being hip. Nothing makes me more ill than when people confuse circumstance with substance. Yeah, modern people have alot of tricks thanks to technology, but that doesnt mean they are any more aware or capable. In fact, limitations usually spawn the best results. If young people really had something figured out these days, then where is the modern Pink Floyd? Where is the modern Beatles? Are there even any great movies or music coming out? Hardly. Its very very rare that culture spawns genius these days. Youd think that a bunch of super hip happy free thinkers would have some ideas but they actually seem to have less ideas than the 60s generation did, or even the early 90s generation. People need to stop confusing capability with actual content. Yeah, modern people have the world at their fingertips, but then how come so much of whats being created is weak drivel?
There won't be a new Beatles in the current cultural state, it's just too fragmented field. That's not about musical quality but just too hard to get all these different niche subcultures to all like 1 and the same thing.
Yo guys I'm a hipster. I smoke cigs, wear skinny jeans, hang out with a bunch of people wearing flannel and floral print dresses, listen to obscure music (preferably stuff pitchfork.com hasn't reviewed), take art history and media classes, and make fun of jocks for being clueless and uncool.
Background to make me a person (i.e. acceptably nerdy), and not just a target for flames. + Show Spoiler +
I identify as a hipster because to the vast majority of people I am one. I'm situated in a liberal arts college context where it's impossible not to be self-aware, and self-awareness dictates that I recognize that people would interpret my social situation and fashion signifiers as belonging to the hipster category.
At the same time, I'm nerdy as all hell. I'm majoring in computer science and read xkcd. I spend every summer playing JRPGs, and most of the time I spend in my dorm room revolves around visiting TL and watching Magic: The Gathering draft videos. I had like two close friends in high school. I got called gay a lot because I was too shy to hit on girls and started wearing skinny jeans and the occasional pink shirt when my older brother introduced me to "alt music" (lol, back when The Arcade Fire had a shred of cred).
Over time, I got hipper. Recently, my friends and I made amends with the rival hipster group in my grade, who resented us because they thought we thought we were cooler than them (which was, to some extent true -- we were better connected with older kids and were more current in our valuation of various trends). The point is, I wanted to be cool, and did it. But I'm still nerdy, and ultimately that's ok because I'll admit to it, and make it look like a self-aware and ironic statement by doing so. Protip: Admit to your nerdy tendencies without being ashamed of them. It makes it seem like you're confident that they're actually cool, even if they really aren't.
A quick point I want to make is that many of the hipsters I know are actually not that heavily into irony, but tired of it. They (and I) get really into some admittedly vapid shit because everyone needs to feel passionate about something, and there aren't many options to be original and creative.
However, whenever I read articles about hipsters or hear characterizations of them, I'm always a bit bothered by them not factually representing what is actually relevant to today's in-the-know hipster. There's that guy JWD who posts the roman numeral blogs, and while he has a good eye for classic fashion and cuts, his musical taste (which I personally don't have any problem with) is far too mainstream and outdated for a self-respecting hipster to advertise to others. Since the TL community seems somewhat under-informed, I figured I'd present a handy (if likely biased towards my geographical area and understanding of what is hip) cheat sheet on what's actually hip of the general stereotypes, and good reference points for the nerd who might want to be hipper than he is:
1. PBR: Not really trendy anymore. Miller High Life was the on-trend beer over the summer and into this fall, but is starting to fall out favor. Four Loko is obviously the biggest trend in drinking right now, but it has lost validity since coming so heavily into the media and general consciousness. Of course, Four Loko is still a solid choice and an interesting experience, but definitely not bleeding edge anymore. Viable options to explore are Bum Wines (Cisco, MD 20/20, Nighttrain) as a natural extension of Four Loko's get-you-trashed qualities, and Budweiser as an arbitrary but not actually good beer to drink.
2. Fixies: Definitely more than a year out of trend. Sure, you can still ride one, and you wont get criticized for conduct unbecoming a hipster, but bikes are really more reserved for people who actually like bikes. Skateboarding remains a viable transportation option, and is growing trendier in my estimation, but requires a strong investment into actually being able to skate (like trix and stuff too).
3. Skinny jeans: Yea everyone still wears skinny jeans. Cuffing your pants (rolling the bottom up) is however moving out of style.
4. Flannel: Definitely coming out of style, but still wearable. Hipster fashion in general is moving away from the super flamboyant (looking like you're from L.A. is not cool on the East Coast any longer) and towards a more understated look, with drab colors but excellent fit being the goal. This is why cuffing isn't cool-it suggests your pants don't fit well.
5. Converse: I don't see how converse are specific to hipsters, since tons of people wear them and punks and other subcultures do too. The more important trend was to wear leather/dress shoes and desert boots, but since those got too popular sneakers (like Vans) are coming into style.
6. Ironic t-shirts: Graphic t-shirts are not super stylish any more at all. Old, raggedy thrift store tees are cool, but only because they look faded and drape nicely on your body. The exaggerated statement of an ironic t-shirt is too L.A. to be cool right now, unless the irony is next-level good or somewhat sincere (e.g. my Mariah Carey concert t-shirt works because it looks super ridiculous and because I actually dig Mariah Carey chopped & screwed). A random TMNT shirt is boring and outdated in today's hipsterdom. Also, wolf t-shirts aren't cool anymore.
So there's a quick list of the most iconic things. I hope someone will read it and understand that a) their stereotypes are out of date and b) it really is more about the fun of being up to date on trends than the actual trend.
Edit: scott pilgrim hip wut lol
also a dude asked if hipsters are northern. It's mostly coastal, collegiate, and Northeastern.
On November 09 2010 12:04 Mellotron wrote: This article makes a mountain out of a molehill.
I would actually argue that this article is trying to make a molehill out of a mountain. To me, this guy is saying "Hey all you people who are saying hipsters are an omen of society's downfall - go suck it cuz they just wanna have fun."
On November 09 2010 12:04 Mellotron wrote: All cultures throughout time have equivalent youth culture activities. Its nothing new. What surprises me is how people are so shocked that young people are dressing up and acting goofy. Thats been going on for forever. Its not like being off the wall is some kind of thing they came up with a week ago. Its old as dirt. Hipsters are actually somewhat behind the times if you look at it from certain perspectives. If you are just now "becoming a hipster" then you are arriving quite late to the party.
People (particularly the older people who this article is aimed at) make a big deal out of it because they're reacting to something that's an integral part of (western) youth culture: rebelling against the norm. Being off the wall has always been around, but the great (and, to many, awful) thing about youth culture is that young people are always finding new ways to do it and shock the older generation. The article looks at exactly how the hipsters are different from previous versions of youth (counter)culture - it's not saying that no young people have ever shocked anyone until the hipsters came around.
On November 09 2010 12:04 Mellotron wrote: I say, embrace the hipsters. Why? Because they really are just the same old human fears and emotions and doubts. They arent really any different than normal people. In fact, its probably alot of fear and doubt that fuels such a narrow social identity. Besides, i know a TON of these kinds of people and really they are harmless. There are people here saying that those excluded from their hipster click are jealous... there is nothing to be jealous of. Ive witnessed these peoples lives and they arent all smiles and chic irony. In fact, most of them have minimal creative skills and lack any kind of abstract vision other than the ones predetermined by the current style they see all around them. You gotta remember that for every genuinely odd person in their group, there are 500 that are just normal people playing along so that they can have some place to feel like they belong. And instead of mocking that weakness, maybe its better to just let them play out their life how they want. In time, everyone drops their act.
I'd argue that there's plenty to be jealous of - they're getting a TON of media attention. And I think you're right - the fear and doubt does fuel the narrow social identity. However, in this case it's the old people (and "uncool people") who are expressing the fear and doubt, which is a bonafide way to make more kids embrace hipsterdom, because that's what youth counterculture is about (according to McInnes).
On November 09 2010 12:04 Mellotron wrote: Im somewhat bothered by the guy saying that modern young people are more hip and connected. I dont think being able to tweet your bowel movements counts as being hip. Nothing makes me more ill than when people confuse circumstance with substance. Yeah, modern people have alot of tricks thanks to technology, but that doesnt mean they are any more aware or capable. In fact, limitations usually spawn the best results. If young people really had something figured out these days, then where is the modern Pink Floyd? Where is the modern Beatles? Are there even any great movies or music coming out? Hardly. Its very very rare that culture spawns genius these days. Youd think that a bunch of super hip happy free thinkers would have some ideas but they actually seem to have less ideas than the 60s generation did, or even the early 90s generation. People need to stop confusing capability with actual content. Yeah, modern people have the world at their fingertips, but then how come so much of whats being created is weak drivel?
You might not think that being able to tweet stupid stuff is hip, but that's because you know twitter well and understand that it's not some kind of magic bullet for being cool. There are a ton of people out there who don't understand twitter and, therefore, fear it and doubt it, or think it's really hip.
I would argue that modern young people are more aware and, sometimes, capable than their/our predecessors. With technology, I can know about all kinds of interesting or scandalous or boring current events at the click of a mouse. Having this kind of awareness capability is, I think, part of what makes hipsters so unique - they can incorporate styles or music tastes or whatever from more cultures, time periods, and sources in general than anyone (in general) could ever before.
Part of why I liked this article was that the title was a Pink Floyd reference. To answer your point, though, who's to say that there isn't an indie band out there that'll be the new Pink Floyd or Beatles? Who's to say that modern music or movies are worse than that which we've seen before? Modern movies are certainly better than old movies, in general - look at the way technology and modern film techniques have expanded cinematography and allowed film makers to create works that express unbelievably complex ideas with incredible clarity (the world of Avatar, for example, or the mind boggling situations of Inception). These are innovative works that would not have been possible even 10 years ago. Are they masterpieces of cinema in the grand scheme of things? Maybe, maybe not. Time will tell.
Look at the StarCraft eSports scene, even. It's not a hipster thing (yet, lol), but it would not be possible without the technology and expanded awareness of the modern era and modern young people.
On November 09 2010 12:04 Mellotron wrote: Remember not to give credit where it isnt due and remember that appearance isnt everything. All the greatest most unique and hip people ive ever known were rarely ever the ones who wore the costume that fooled everyone into thinking they were. Action matters, content matters. Fashion is what you bust out when you dont have any good ideas and need to cheat.
I think McInnes would agree with you - hipsterdom, like youth culture in general, is 90% hot air, and he's saying we should recognize it as such.
Look at the StarCraft eSports scene, even. It's not a hipster thing (yet, lol), but it would not be possible without the technology and expanded awareness of the modern era and modern young people.
Cuticle - thank you very much for your hipster perspective ... I was really hoping to get something like that in the discussion for this article. And also thank you for your efforts in popularizing SC eSports among the hipsters.
All I got to say to this article is, trying to be cool for the sake of being cool has never been cool. All of these hipster indicators like indie music, film, whatever. The reason it's cool to do these things now is that cool people did it when it wasn't. It's cool to start trends, not to follow them.
Basically I'm incredulous that this discussion exists. Who the fuck cares...?? But I had to read it because I'm addicted to the absurd and meaningless. This is not meant AT ALL to belittle the discussion or the participants; I just had to situate my post.
Cuticle, that is a hugely useful post. What an upright and cool thing.
Now, to my point. Does this actually matter to many people? Or do many people even realize it goes on? Literally, truly, I went around town the other day with a wool plaid shirt over a wolf t-shirt, and rolled up cuff jeans, and I had no idea these could be relevant fashion memes, especially in combination. They are just clothes. Am I wrong to assume most people feel this way...?
The reason I attend these talks is to tell everyone to shut the fuck up and as Nickelodeon says, “Let kids be kids.” There’s this notion that youth culture is irrelevant if it’s not dripping with liberal activism. I don’t want kids to get into politics. They’re stupid. I want them to stick with what they’re good at, which is basically just fucking. Youth culture is about music and fashion and both are inexorably linked to sex. To provide more analysis than that is to waste brain cells.
and... that's why we have youth violence and truancy. no wonder why people hate hipsters. it's cool to be degenerates and failures.
My issue with hipsters is their absolute fear of being "uncool", unless they're trying to be. The fact that as soon as the band they absolutely LOVED is now enjoyed by a lot of other people, they suddenly feel as though they have personally been wronged by said band and now hate them. Forget that so many other people have been introduced to the great music, they only liked it when THEY knew about it.
They are exclusionist for no god damn reason.
I totally get the style, and sometimes it even works kinda well. Some people truly pull off the fashion and they really do know some of the most obscure music that isn't just cool because it's so bad that nobody else likes it. Hipsters definitely drive trends and I like that.
I just hate the high horse they get on about why their fashion and their music is so much better than everybody else's. Not for a specific reason, but because "I wouldn't get it". That is what makes me hate them.
That, coupled with being in a university town where it really is a bunch of trust-fund kiddies pretending they're "urban", and I just can never, ever like hipsters.
And someone was asking what a hipster is, and to that I say: Watch a BlackBerry commercial. All of them are what I would call "hipster douchebags". Their marketing department should be shot.
That video is a prime example of my issues with the conception of a hipster in media and the nebulosity of the word. The most repugnant parts of a constantly evolving trendset are latched onto and demonized: starbucks, exclusivity, twitter, and pretension. Scenesters are the greatest offenders, because that evolution of emo-chic is a true blight on humanity and discredits any hipster through the dubious, but widely perceived, connection between the two subcultures.
In the postmodern quest to assemble validity, mistakes are made by misguided individuals who portray themselves as in and hip.Those missteps are used by those outside the subculture to denigrate the entirety of the subculture, even those who aren't perpetrating the villainy of starbucks and genuinely shitty music.
People who hate hipsters as a whole are not unlike people who hate Islam because there are terrorists who identify as Muslim and twist its message to terrorism.
On November 09 2010 09:30 gLyo wrote: If you don't like them it's probably because you wish you were one. They are fucking cool and everyone wants to be cool.
this in a nutshell is what I hate about hipsters. You look like retards and I don't wish that I, too, looked like a retard. This translates into "I am jealous" somehow
I'm mid 20s, I like alternative music, I live in NYC and I hate hipsters. Even though I live one stop from Williamsburg I never go there partying. Went only once and was enough for me.
People trying to be so cool that they are not cool any more but purely annoying. And they love alternative stuff just to be alternative. And yet they all seems the same... I stick to Manhattan.
And damn, I am not jealous at all. I don't feel like I need to look like and behave "alternative"...
On November 09 2010 15:48 Lebesgue wrote: I'm mid 20s, I like alternative music, I live in NYC and I hate hipsters. Even though I live one stop from Williamsburg I never go there partying. Went only once and was enough for me.
People trying to be so cool that they are not cool any more but purely annoying. And they love alternative stuff just to be alternative. And yet they all seems the same... I stick to Manhattan.
And damn, I am not jealous at all. I don't feel like I need to look like and behave "alternative"...
They're mostly mid-west American transplants that came to the city using Daddy's money. And yeah, they inevitably flock to the LES and Williamsburg. Spending each day wearing American Apparel and running around looking for the next supercool concert. Pretty gay. I like NYC a lot more now that I've moved to Astoria. I don't have to look at skinny dudes wearing stupid retro hats, carrying skateboards around, with dumb tattoos on their hairy forearms, and wearing sunglasses at night.
The small ass city I live in (Fargo) is flooded with hipster types. There are so many coffee shops here it's unbelievable, because it's a smaller town.. but the fact that it is a huge college city we get all the socially awkward ex-emo, reborn hipster kids here. To be honest, I really don't mind them, but there is always that certain person that you hate that puts on a stereotype for the rest of the people. It's really a fad that goes from
Fuck man i hate stupid hipsters/yuppies.There nothing worse than a young, rich smartass who buys all the cool NewYorker style fashion he he/she can find, while being a total dick to anyone who does not look like they do. Copenhagen has been much been overrun by these rich bastards. "Exclusive" night clubs are popping up everywhere, and nice local stores and bars are closing to make space for the new trend. Ive had it with these scumbags, stop the disease, destroy yuppie culture before its all we got.
I think the dude's pretty much correct, but he certainly comes off like an appeaser. I think there are some compelling arguments, like attempting to debunk class arguments with the bit about thrift stores and stealing music. It's generally on point and put in a light and careless tone, which it certainly deserves. I can only imagine how funny it would be to watch a bunch of profs with stern expressions pulling out all of these ludicrously inappropriate academic arguments.
There's a lot of funny bitterness in this thread too. I have to doubt it's by older people propping up their preferred youth of the past though...
EDIT: I mean, all the generalizations about hipsters in this thread are like mom's basement and a gut peeking out over those sweatpants are a generalization for nerds.
Im somewhat bothered by the guy saying that modern young people are more hip and connected. I dont think being able to tweet your bowel movements counts as being hip. Nothing makes me more ill than when people confuse circumstance with substance. Yeah, modern people have alot of tricks thanks to technology, but that doesnt mean they are any more aware or capable. In fact, limitations usually spawn the best results. If young people really had something figured out these days, then where is the modern Pink Floyd? Where is the modern Beatles? Are there even any great movies or music coming out? Hardly. Its very very rare that culture spawns genius these days. Youd think that a bunch of super hip happy free thinkers would have some ideas but they actually seem to have less ideas than the 60s generation did, or even the early 90s generation. People need to stop confusing capability with actual content. Yeah, modern people have the world at their fingertips, but then how come so much of whats being created is weak drivel?
Is this serious? Anyone who still thinks that the youth of today aren't producing enough quality material is not bothering to look or dismissing things before experiencing them. This is nothing more than a well written version of the old 'the youth of today suck' bullshit.
The fact that you haven't found the modern Pink Floyd or the modern Beatles is not evidence that they don't existence; it's evidence that you haven't found them. I certainly have, but then again, I actually bother to wade through the 'weak drivel' to find something worthy of my time.
People with this attitude are always the same. The modern Pink Floyd literally can't exist: if it sounds like Pink Floyd then it's just someone who copied Pink Floyd, and if it sounds different then it's not fucking Pink Floyd!
Our generation's lack of 'quality' is your lack of open-mindedness.
Im somewhat bothered by the guy saying that modern young people are more hip and connected. I dont think being able to tweet your bowel movements counts as being hip. Nothing makes me more ill than when people confuse circumstance with substance. Yeah, modern people have alot of tricks thanks to technology, but that doesnt mean they are any more aware or capable. In fact, limitations usually spawn the best results. If young people really had something figured out these days, then where is the modern Pink Floyd? Where is the modern Beatles? Are there even any great movies or music coming out? Hardly. Its very very rare that culture spawns genius these days. Youd think that a bunch of super hip happy free thinkers would have some ideas but they actually seem to have less ideas than the 60s generation did, or even the early 90s generation. People need to stop confusing capability with actual content. Yeah, modern people have the world at their fingertips, but then how come so much of whats being created is weak drivel?
Is this serious? Anyone who still thinks that the youth of today aren't producing enough quality material is not bothering to look or dismissing things before experiencing them. This is nothing more than a well written version of the old 'the youth of today suck' bullshit.
The fact that you haven't found the modern Pink Floyd or the modern Beatles is not evidence that they don't existence; it's evidence that you haven't found them. I certainly have, but then again, I actually bother to wade through the 'weak drivel' to find something worthy of my time.
People with this attitude are always the same. The modern Pink Floyd literally can't exist: if it sounds like Pink Floyd then it's just someone who copied Pink Floyd, and if it sounds different then it's not fucking Pink Floyd!
Our generation's lack of 'quality' is your lack of open-mindedness.
No our generation's lack of 'quality' is our lack of good LSD tbh.
Im somewhat bothered by the guy saying that modern young people are more hip and connected. I dont think being able to tweet your bowel movements counts as being hip. Nothing makes me more ill than when people confuse circumstance with substance. Yeah, modern people have alot of tricks thanks to technology, but that doesnt mean they are any more aware or capable. In fact, limitations usually spawn the best results. If young people really had something figured out these days, then where is the modern Pink Floyd? Where is the modern Beatles? Are there even any great movies or music coming out? Hardly. Its very very rare that culture spawns genius these days. Youd think that a bunch of super hip happy free thinkers would have some ideas but they actually seem to have less ideas than the 60s generation did, or even the early 90s generation. People need to stop confusing capability with actual content. Yeah, modern people have the world at their fingertips, but then how come so much of whats being created is weak drivel?
Is this serious? Anyone who still thinks that the youth of today aren't producing enough quality material is not bothering to look or dismissing things before experiencing them. This is nothing more than a well written version of the old 'the youth of today suck' bullshit.
The fact that you haven't found the modern Pink Floyd or the modern Beatles is not evidence that they don't existence; it's evidence that you haven't found them. I certainly have, but then again, I actually bother to wade through the 'weak drivel' to find something worthy of my time.
People with this attitude are always the same. The modern Pink Floyd literally can't exist: if it sounds like Pink Floyd then it's just someone who copied Pink Floyd, and if it sounds different then it's not fucking Pink Floyd!
Our generation's lack of 'quality' is your lack of open-mindedness.
No our generation's lack of 'quality' is our lack of good LSD tbh.
I don't know where you live, but there is one other user on this forum who I know can back me up in saying: Fuck that. We've got some mad Lucy.
EDIT: This is pretty off topic I guess. Sorry bout that. What kind of man stands by when someone's bashing his girl.
On November 09 2010 09:04 Peanutsc wrote: ... Hearing today’s kids called mindless consumers drives me nuts. They get their clothes at secondhand shops, and the ones they do buy have fewer logos than when I was their age. They don’t buy music. They steal it. They can create their own band out of nothing by mixing samples and genres and new instruments, and they get these songs to their fans without a record label. They’re not stealing anything from blacks. They are black. Mailer’s essay is a half-century old, and today’s incarnation of cool is more inclusive than any before it. We all know how misogynist the hippies really were. The Free Love movement was only a groovy way to take advantage of women. Punk pretended to be open to everyone, but an Afro Mohawk was about as common as a well-respected white rapper. Today’s kids couldn’t care less who’s black, gay, rich or poor.
“Which brings me to my next point,” I said, “Where did this theory begin that hipsters are all rich posers?” I’ve met thousands of them over the years and have yet to meet a soul who lives off a trust fund. (I’ve met plenty of trust-fund kids, but they’re more into being fabulous in Monaco than going to see a punk band.) They have the same amount of money young people have always had: barely any. They don’t drink Pabst because they’re trying to appropriate working-class culture. They’re drinking it because it’s cheap. They drive track bikes because they don’t get stolen. They listen to iPods because it’s the most musical bang for your buck. When you look into modern youth culture and examine all the criticisms, one truth becomes impossible to ignore: Today’s kids are the best. They are savvier, better connected, more informed, less consumerist and more capable of everything—including partying—than my generation or yours. Believe me, cassette tapes were a fucking pain in the ass. ...
If this is what a hipster is then why are there so many negative responses in this thread? The people described here are just normal youth who would almost certainly be playing video games such as SC2 or COD4. If you are one of those posting generalisations read Cuticle's description of a hipster (page 4), surely you'll identify with some of that if you're 18-25.
There's a good variety of hipsters. Some bad some good. The bad ones are really really obnoxious and annoying, the good ones are a lot of fun to talk too. If anything, it's just the way the people handle it that gives off a good or bad vibe. Personally I don't have a problem with them, for the most part hipsters are really easy to get along with for me.
so, this guy is the creator of magazines read almost exclusively by hipsters, writing an article about why hipsters are the best generation of youth ever.... On top of that, he has no degree in sociology when clearly the topic he is touching requires massive study of our society and its past. Its funny how he doesnt like hipsters being hated on but at the same time, he goes rampant with stereotypes and overgeneralizations on every social group he can think of. It escapes me how people can take journalists like him seriously on topics of this scope. His advice for his readers to google images of nerds who write hate articles on hipsters really tells a lot more about this whole hipster culture than the rest of the article.
On November 09 2010 09:13 IntoTheWow wrote: Ugh... Im going to sound dumb. But what's a hipster?
Hipster comes from the word "hip" in the sense that they are "in" the current fashion trend, especially in regards to music. The more obscure the bands you listen to are, the higher "rank" of hipster you get.
PS: Basically they are "chetos fashion" (Colorful nike shoes, skinny jeans, Felix T-shirts etc) here you can find them around Palermo Soho, peru beach etc.
Ugh, I havnt read everything in this thread, but everyone should be free to live their life regardless of how, unless they dont harm other living people. The definition of life is nothing but your own opinion, and dont think of the time you spend as a waste, because someday, somehow, that time you spent was exactly what you wanted. There's nothing set in stone of what's "sad" about someone's life. Its merely just your opinion.
On November 09 2010 10:33 jinorazi wrote: i think people are over generalizing hipsters. just like how some asians dislike math and some black people dislike fried chicken, cool hipsters can exist. hipsters don't bother me, i live in san francisco.
I live in the South and have lived in the South for my entire life. I have many friends who are black. The high school I attended was about 40% black.
You are out of your mind. I have never met a black person who dislikes fried chicken.
On November 09 2010 10:33 jinorazi wrote: i think people are over generalizing hipsters. just like how some asians dislike math and some black people dislike fried chicken, cool hipsters can exist. hipsters don't bother me, i live in san francisco.
I live in the South and have lived in the South for my entire life. I have many friends who are black. The high school I attended was about 40% black.
You are out of your mind. I have never met a black person who dislikes fried chicken.
This is true, I have lived in Baltimore (63 % African American pop) for a very long time and the fried chicken joints were by far the most popular, followed very closely by the lake trout vendors.
I also have no idea what a hipster is. I asume this is a mostly American trend thing as I hadn't heard of it at all all in the U.K before I left and certainely nothing in Korea since I've been here. I read a bit of the post but got bored as I had no idea what it was talking about realy. It may there for sound dum that I even bothered to posted if I don't know what the thread is about, but the point I guess is to show an international opinion of most of the world has no idea what you guys are talking about and also to take offense to the fact (and I may have got this wrong) you have to dress a certain way to know about music. My friend at uni used to dress up all punk and then I talked to him about the bands and he didn't know any of them. How you look ain't everything.
To answer your question. They aren't any better or worse. The fact we're giving them more attention than needed means they won. -_-
Most people in general have to get over themselves. It's great that they like to have their fun. This sub-culture really reminds me of when I was back in High School, which was over ten years ago. Youth trying to find a group they click with, and now we have hipsters who are a mixture of these groups. The problem with this adolescence psyche is people start believing they're better than everyone else once they start identifying with a certain group, which is total nonsense. You could say the same thing about Team Liquid. :/
Technology isn't much better. Things like Twitter and Facebook have their uses, but I find many people I know taking it way too far and waste way too much time on it, but who am I to judge? I spend most of my time surfing Team Liquid when I'm not busy.
If you aren't into the fab then just leave it alone. If you are, good for you. Just as long as you don't boast about being better than everyone else then we're peachy.
On November 09 2010 10:33 jinorazi wrote: i think people are over generalizing hipsters. just like how some asians dislike math and some black people dislike fried chicken, cool hipsters can exist. hipsters don't bother me, i live in san francisco.
I live in the South and have lived in the South for my entire life. I have many friends who are black. The high school I attended was about 40% black.
You are out of your mind. I have never met a black person who dislikes fried chicken.
I've never met anyone that dislikes fried chicken.
Hipsters are like any sub-culture. It's alright to stereotype them, (after all, a stereotype only becomes a stereotype because it's mainly true) but this doesn't stop some of them from being good people. I have several good friends of mine who I secretly despise for the death of music (ewwww dubstep) and the introduction of skateboarding culture (I have a troubled past with skateboarders; every single one I've met is a MONSTROUS prick). Basically, there's one thing to being ironic-I admire wit- and just simply being caught up with the "in" crowd. The hipsters I happen to consider my friends take their "culture" with a grain of salt. Constantly I hear them getting into sarcasm-fueled debates over which one of them is more "indie" (the best line being "Dude, I'm so indie I listen to bands that don't evene exist yet!"). However, what really gets my goat is people who say that we rag on hipsters because we're jealous of their coolness. It's an age-old argument that registers on the stupid-meter as a 4-chan argument (see y'all just jealous meme). Basically, I kind of abhor hipsterdom because of the sheer hypocrisy of it. They claim to be ironic and strikingly independent while there are legions of them, and most of them are just following the beacon of the truly original and independent figures. And plus, the idea of "cool" gets to people's head a lot, and they become arrogant pricks. It's not really their being a hipster, its more their being unable to cope with their popularity.
On November 09 2010 21:51 Snuggles wrote: There's a good variety of hipsters. Some bad some good. The bad ones are really really obnoxious and annoying, the good ones are a lot of fun to talk too. If anything, it's just the way the people handle it that gives off a good or bad vibe. Personally I don't have a problem with them, for the most part hipsters are really easy to get along with for me.
if you take out the word hipster and replace it with human, it still works and we don't have to deal with hipsters
i'm 20 years old and dislike hipsters for their awful attitudes.
does that mean i broke the "only old people hate us because they don't understand us" formula?
but in all seriousness, i dislike hipsters because they are like the kind of people that killed scenes like punk. it started out as a genuine "counter culture" style and attitude, and was soon commercialized and watered down and made generic.
At this stage of the game, being a hipster is just par for the course. has nothing to do with them being inherently silly, it's just what they've become that i reject.
The author of the article suggests that hipsters get a bad reputation because older generations dislike them. I've found that older generations hardly know what a hipster is. No, hipsters have a shitty reputation because everyone their age hates them. Because of their attitude.
It's not one certain thing that really makes you a hipster. Yes, you can drink PBR and have an ipod and shop at thrift stores and not be a hipster. It's the attitude that defines them.
I feel they are just the hippies of our era
This is the sort of thing that fuels my hate of hipsters. The hippies, while fun to mock now, at least had some notions of ethos. They had a point. Hipsters do not. All they have is a non-conformist attitude for the purpose of feeling superior. Unlike any other subculture, they haven't created anything new, just appropriated the styles of other subcultures, rendering their significance meaningless.
I disagree with the author, hipsterism has a very large consumerist bent and it is quite proud of it.
Also, the people most aware of hipsters are other hipsters, and the greatest source of hate for hipsters is from hipsters. Hipsters simply hate other hipsters. What could possibly be more infuriating to a pretentious wanker than another pretentious wanker being all pretentious and wankery towards them.
As a pretentious wanker myself, I resent their insipid musical taste. My taste in music is more respectable because I don't listen to any vapid modern EDM or indie, I listen to classic electronic, Berlin school electronic (but not Kraftwerk because that is far too popular with hipsters) and acid because they have cultural significance in the world of electronic music and I have a refined musical pallet.
Seriously though, they aren't as pretentious as they seem, most of them have incredibly derivative musical taste and are following whatever trends their non-commercial community radio station is broadcasting. They are harmless, and this is really just par for the course, older people will always complain about younger people, because young people are pretty stupid, this will continue throughout all of eternity.