EPTHow do foreigners view US politics? - Page 45
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Dudemeister
Sweden314 Posts
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skurj
United States87 Posts
On November 08 2010 07:56 Dudemeister wrote: Thread derailed in to "My country is better than yours". Cmon guys Uh, thread started as crap. Any change from yet another smug circlejerk is an improvement. | ||
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Krigwin
1130 Posts
On November 08 2010 08:07 skurj wrote: Uh, thread started as crap. Any change from yet another smug circlejerk is an improvement. Thread actually had a purpose. And no, that purpose wasn't "Americans being arrogant assholes and bragging about how great their country is". Why don't you go watch some TV or something? I'm sure there's wrestling or NASCAR on some channel. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On November 08 2010 07:56 Dudemeister wrote: Thread derailed in to "My country is better than yours". Cmon guys I want to point out that this is to be expected from a forum like teamliquid. The forum isn't set up to allow any progress of the discussion, not just within a thread, but also in new ones. There aren't moderators to ban people who have political opinions based on incorrect facts. Likewise, there's no commited effort to shame people who have strange and aggressive opinions. Since of course TL attracts individuals with a variety of ideological backgrounds, the only thing that's left is some people arguing from different starting points over and over. Next thread, they will again argue this over and over. Also, blame should go to either Europeans whose perceptions of US politics might be less than informed, as well as the rightwing-type Americans that feel the need to attack ficticious threats of socialism. (and I would say that EU tends to know more about US than in reverse) | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7913 Posts
On November 08 2010 09:28 Mothxal wrote: I want to point out that this is to be expected from a forum like teamliquid. The forum isn't set up to allow any progress of the discussion, not just within a thread, but also in new ones. There aren't moderators to ban people who have political opinions based on incorrect facts. Likewise, there's no commited effort to shame people who have strange and aggressive opinions. Since of course TL attracts individuals with a variety of ideological backgrounds, the only thing that's left is some people arguing from different starting points over and over. Next thread, they will again argue this over and over. Also, blame should go to either Europeans whose perceptions of US politics might be less than informed, as well as the rightwing-type Americans that feel the need to attack ficticious threats of socialism. (and I would say that EU tends to know more about US than in reverse) Any discussion with someone with a really opposite opinion is vain. You can have me discuss with a republican for six hours, I can swear you I won't agree any more with republican thesis. Thing is, political opinions are not about being right or wrong; they have very deep moral / philosophical / ideological implications. Now, obviously, I have very good reason to dislike american system; but that's not the point: the point is that I am thinking on a basis which is so different than the one of a republican that there is no way we can even understand each other. Has nothing to do with TL, imo. Happens with any kind of person who really think otherwise, and that's why, ultimately, debates in general are very often completely vain. | ||
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Blobskillz
Germany548 Posts
and instead of answering " wow I didnt think you guys saw us this way" you get answers like " olol stupid europeans have no clue f*** off" then naturally the flaming starts | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On November 08 2010 09:33 Biff The Understudy wrote: Any discussion with someone with a really opposite opinion is vain. You can have me discuss with a republican for six hours, I can swear you I won't agree any more with republican thesis. Thing is, political opinions are not about being right or wrong; they have very deep moral / philosophical / ideological implications. Now, obviously, I have very good reason to dislike american system; but that's not the point: the point is that I am thinking on a basis which is so different than the one of a republican that there is no way we can even understand each other. Has nothing to do with TL, imo. Happens with any kind of person who really think otherwise, and that's why, ultimately, debates in general are very often completely vain. I don't mean TL specifically, just that TL is a place with a lack of moderation (in threads about politics) and people from diverse ideological backgrounds. In that case you can't escape the perpetual debates about libertarianism vs liberalism that seem to pop up every thread, like groundhog day. The same would go for any random forum. Such debates do seem somewhat of an American obsession, though. I don't think, say, a Dutch-language forum would have them, at least. There are certainly plenty cases of plainly incorrect assumptions, meaningless terms (such as big government or capitalism/socialism) used to reflexively attack people, defining terms as they suit one, ignoring annoying facts, etc. You can't fight this though, since those opinions seem deeply ingrained by US culture, and a forum post on a message board isn't going to change their mind. Especially since the ones that argue the most will never change their mind anyway. | ||
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Monsen
Germany2548 Posts
On November 08 2010 07:33 skurj wrote: Well I have been beat over the head with the HDI by europhiles for years, so I consider turnabout fair play. Of course, now that America is kicking ass, the europhiles will probably switch to some other metric to feel superior. Brb got to change my pants. | ||
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simme123
Sweden810 Posts
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Blobskillz
Germany548 Posts
On November 08 2010 10:00 simme123 wrote: I'd say the reason why it took that turn is because the Americans started to group Europe together as one country. maybe more geography classes arnt cumpolsory in america? tho I wouldnt mind being one country with sweden, we are clearly having less and less blonde and not ugly girls in germany  | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
Has nothing to do with TL, imo. Happens with any kind of person who really think otherwise, and that's why, ultimately, debates in general are very often completely vain. Two observations: One: the internet is the mother of terrible simplifiers. The easy and lazy supply of "information" has so decoupled the contemplative unity between knowledge and analysis that argument and thought become weighed down by their own heavy sloth. The ability to copy and paste links and "sources" is another of these detrimental inflations of information. The thing debased is knowledge. Our ability to connect, contextualize and infer are all unconsciously destroyed by this quick and convenient manner of behaviour. Unlike many libertarians I am not very optimistic about the internet as a vehicle for truth and inquiry. The second thing relates to Tocqueville's observation about the peculiar taste Americans had for general ideas. Read "Americans" as a cypher for democratic societies in general, and we come to the bottom of our declining ability to speak the same language. We cast our nets too wide. We love grandiloquent doctrines and have little attention for detail. Terrible simplicity demands a Manichean theology. It's not so terrible that people should be prejudiced, but that people should say this very damaging thing: this is how I am, this is how you are. We are separated by an unbreakable void of class, nationality, gender, life experience, genetic endowments and sexual proclivities. In my experience people who resort to such arguments are either too weak to prevail, or too abstract to be convincing. In either case, the initial fault was overreaching ambition. the question right in the beginnign was how do europeans see american politics. Well we gave our opinion how we see it. And then the flaming started because some americans couldnt handle that a lot of people here dont see them as heros :/ I think most Americans among us are quite aware of the general cadence of the European chorus. However like any people they will be instinctively inclined to dispute foreign criticism of their nation as a whole. This is no different whether discussing American, German, or British politics. Neither is such an instinct unnatural. Most foreign criticisms are superficial. They are built on idle speculations and lack contextual knowledge. They rarely take into consideration the national character and chemistry which are often decisive. They evaluate national idiosyncrasies on its intellectual merit, whereas all idiosyncrasies are organic qualities. A giraffe may accept complaints from other giraffes about the length of his neck, but he will rarely accept it from an elephant. P.S. You will note that I say this after mentioning Tocqueville, a man who understood America better than any American. Foreign observations can be most valuable, but are two potential blindspots: blindness towards his subject, and blindness towards himself. What is needed in criticizing foreign nations is a lot of insight on every level. Take Napoleon's adage that the English were a nation of shopkeepers. Now this tells us more about Napoleon (and about the French, for that matter!) than it does about the English. I don't mean TL specifically, just that TL is a place with a lack of moderation (in threads about politics) and people from diverse ideological backgrounds. In that case you can't escape the perpetual debates about libertarianism vs liberalism that seem to pop up every thread, like groundhog day. The same would go for any random forum. Like I said, I don't think "ideological background" is a real thing. Social background I admit can contribute to a person's thoughts, but to call something an "ideological" background just begs the question: how did the background get there in the first place? That we should be thinking about phrases like "ideological background" makes me very pessimistic. As Simone Weil said, we are no longer employing words as signs of things. We are employing them as signs of signs. We thereby reduce the person to the status of an unthinking thing, while it is the thing itself that thinks. There is one attitude I'd like to see purged: the accusation of someone who is limited to his background. The accusation that one is a slave of Fox news, or of the NYT. Like I said, such accusations merely begs the question. People are not computers; to know anything is an exertion of the will. You can't fight this though, since those opinions seem deeply ingrained by US culture, and a forum post on a message board isn't going to change their mind. Especially since the ones that argue the most will never change their mind anyway. Well, not unless you are a Great Man. For all of us who are not Jesus or Mohammad, you can limit your ambition. What you can do is influence your family, friends, associates. TL.net is crippled in this regard by its size. It is not quite a country, but it's not quite a neighbourhood either. The same thing will be said in a week which was said last week. | ||
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Monsen
Germany2548 Posts
Personally, I have always hated the anti american bandwagon (which was extremely prevalent in germany during the 2nd Bush aera) mostly because people were not being very rational in their hostility. However the blind patriotism of many americans smells exactly the same to me. Reeks of stupidity. | ||
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DROPPINBOMBS
United States312 Posts
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DMBJonesy
United States42 Posts
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c0rn1
Germany146 Posts
A nice article to the current economical situation within the US. My oppinion about tendencies of the 2 leading parties is extremist to moderate right wing(reps) vs mid to slight right wing (dems). It is amazing to see that americans have such a different impression of left/right wing as we in europe have. Similarities in politics are existing all over the world. One of the major flaws at current politics is that less specialized and educated people decide over topics they have not even the slightest clue about. Another thing is a lack of a moral and ethic institution which watches over decisions made by politicians and major corporations. Further there is a problem that certain things like electricity, & water distribution as well as production, health care, public transportation and certain other topics do not belong into the hands of private corporations. Because maximizing profits do not serve to the cause in those areas. We here in germany experience as we speak the difference between those things run from publically to private. The energy production and distribution for example: We had a stable and affordable system beforehand which was replaced by opening the market to private corporations under the promise of lower energy costs at the same quality of service. Changes since this was privatized: -> Lower Standards in security - The fault liability of nuclear power plants increased tenfold, - No ultimate disposal place for the nuclear waste in sight - The insurance coverage for a maximum credible accident are comical at best in the end the population HAS to bear the consequences in ALL ways -> Lower Prices? - Prices are raising continously with raising profits for the corporations as well. - a newly made "secret" contract between the government and the 4 major players prolonged the operating time of our nuclear plants by several years. Which adds an additional 100 bn € to their profit in that time because all plants are amortized by now. -> Lower distribution network quality - Were we had a multiple redundancy in our power grid when it ran under governmental reign we now see the reduction of redundancy as well as quality to maximise profits which lead to some outages already. This is just one of many examples which we experience here due to privatizing alot of former governmental activities. To conclude and come back to the former topic I think that Capitalism in its' form nowadays has run its' course. it served a purpose as a motor in a growing market as well as growing resources. But we are at the point where the markets are fully build up and the resources are becoming scarce. You cannot apply an exponentially growing, limitless system to a limited world. We have to reconsider the form of capitalism nowadays and adjust it to that particular cause as well as invent rules and boundaries to contradict ridiculous excrescences at the financial market. Further we have to make the system recession proof so it can handle a reduction in productivity and resources over a period of time without faltering. I do know that most right wing minds would scream at me for being a communist but I am far from it. All I want is to put the people back in their rightful place where they belong. PEOPLE first then economy and profit. This planet we live on gives us enough resources to sustain our grade of current prosperity and expand it for the whole population if we use them well and do not waste them to support a reckless turbo-capitalism where money is created out of thin air and the gains of hard labour and inventions are siphoned by a strong financial minority without any regard to the hard-working majority of people. Here is a nice article about that: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/07/opinion/07kristof.html?_r=3 Consider this: If all investment bankers, stock analysts and consultants OR fire fighters, nurses and policemen would die tomorrow, Which group would you miss the most? Conclusion: The biggest problem in politics all around the world is that some groups try to put fear about the future and drastic changes into peoples' hearts so the decision at the ballots is not a logical, moral and well-thought choice but one which is reduced to the simplest instincts of human nature. To the US specifically I find that there's a certain "news" network which hosts people which have nothing better to do than place that particular fear into huge chunks of the population by creating distrust and spreading lies across the nation to discredit people and oppinions. Always remember: A fox has a distinct intelligence about using deceit and subterfuge to hunt down its' prey. cheers P.S.: I want to state very clear that I do not think that the americans are worse nor better than anyone else in this world. We are all sitting in the same boat and it's about time we start to paddle together with good ideas for and necessary changes in the future to support a bright future not only for us but for our kids and the following generations. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
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Danze
Australia219 Posts
On November 08 2010 13:40 Euronyme wrote: yeah derailed. Orly. :D | ||
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Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
On November 07 2010 23:39 Euronyme wrote: I think Hitler said something similar, but he wasn't racist though.. he was just fighting jews and muslims.. wait.. I would edit that post of yours if i was you. In all honesty though I think the main reason to the racism in Europe today is due to really bad integration. Notice that an adopted child with a different skin colour is not considered to be a threat, whilst a family of immigrants would. Better integration is the key to a modern society. Almost every country in europe has tendensies of going all out North Korea instead of dealing with its problems though. Also racist parties tend to lie like crazy. For instance the Swedish nationalistic party said that most crimes are commited by immigrants (seems to be a common thing to say nowadays), but actually neither nationality nor skin colour is written down in police reports, so how the heck would they know that? Just a hint, don't trust the parties saying that muslims are behind all your problems. It's pathetic and a big fat lie, and would it indeed be true, it's rather your poor integration policies fault than the immigrants themselves. For instance it's quite common that immigrants are basically placed in the same neighbourhoods, which makes it alot harder for them to adapt to the new country etc etc etc. I doubt people in general commit crimes if they live a good and healthy life. However that obviously is not the case in Holland. So am I to believe that there is no distinction between discriminating between heritage and beliefs? I would not ever say people of a certain race/gender/sexual tendency or whatever are bad/inferior or any such thing, it's simply a generalisation that cannot be made. I can however say that, for instance (as you so cheaply shot it), the beliefs of Neo-Nazi's are a belief I condemn, and altho I do think people with those beliefs should have the same laws, I would happily discriminate against them; not in a sense that I would ban their ideology, but in a sense that if you're walking around with a swastika I would assume your an idiot, and I would try not to associate with you. Note that in my post I didnt say I agree with any of the tendencies in the Dutch Politics at the moment, I'm just saying there is a very clear distinction between racism and condeming ideologies. Edit: And to be clear, I'm sure there are some racist fuckwads around who believe everyone from Marokko or whatever is an asshole, but there have always been a few morons like that and always will be, I wouldnt go so far as to call that an emerging tendency. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7913 Posts
On November 08 2010 09:54 Mothxal wrote: I don't mean TL specifically, just that TL is a place with a lack of moderation (in threads about politics) and people from diverse ideological backgrounds. In that case you can't escape the perpetual debates about libertarianism vs liberalism that seem to pop up every thread, like groundhog day. The same would go for any random forum. Such debates do seem somewhat of an American obsession, though. I don't think, say, a Dutch-language forum would have them, at least. There are certainly plenty cases of plainly incorrect assumptions, meaningless terms (such as big government or capitalism/socialism) used to reflexively attack people, defining terms as they suit one, ignoring annoying facts, etc. You can't fight this though, since those opinions seem deeply ingrained by US culture, and a forum post on a message board isn't going to change their mind. Especially since the ones that argue the most will never change their mind anyway. Ha, you are still more optimistic than me. You blame ignorance and/or closed-mindness and/or agressivity. The thing is that if I put any cultured left-winger european in the same room with let say, Dick Cheney, and ask them to discuss politics, the result would be exactly the same. Not becaue Dick Cheney is a cock, but because the ideological background is so far away that even the terms we use don't have the same meaning. I argued in this thread with a guy who told me that Scandinavia was the least socialist place in Europe. So well, yeah, we would already need to give a clear definition of the word socialism, which is not an easy task. I thought he was joking, but no, he was very serious. The way ideology work is that the words have a positive / negative connotation BEFORE we really give them a meaning. Socialism will always be bad for a republican, because it is almost an ideological axiom that socialism is evil, regarless the content of the word. Debates lead nowhere, there is a good reason for that. | ||
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