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On September 25 2010 06:35 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 06:32 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes. I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased. Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell. On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_- On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote:
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value. Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then. There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more. Except that TL is mostly ad free (minus the google ones at the top). It's not exactly cheap to pay for bandwidth for a site. It has the potential to make money, but probably does not make money. And if it does, it makes very little. TL, according to the owners, is mostly about the love, though it'd be nice to make money on it... Naz or Meat posted all about this when the site's look was changed. Ha, you're like the people from that SP episode with that line of thought. "I want your internet money." If it never makes any profit in any way, then you are correct. Keep in mind that TL is (or was) one of the main feeders of LP, which does make a lot of money (Nazgul has made made $200-300+ from me via just a small percentage of my FTP rakeback alone, and that's just one user from LP).
Right, but LP is a separate entity, and I think they pay their "contributors" there anyway (contributors being writers and mods).
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On September 25 2010 06:14 matjlav wrote:
I love TL's moderating staff. This is a private website, and they want to keep it from being shitty. Awesome.
I would be interested to hear statistics on how many accounts have been created vs. how many accounts have been banned.
I'd love to see those stats, especially if someone could figure it out year-by-year. I know the banhammer has been swung a lot recently, but 99% of those were perfectly warranted. Aesop gave a great explanation on the first page:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 25 2010 02:50 Aesop wrote:Note: I did not issue the ban cited and didn't have anything to do with it. This is just my take on moderation that isn't representative for all Mods. Let's talk about your example, you say: Show nested quote +The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL. Now, firstly he posted in a thread that was about Idra being interviewed about the patch. So there is nothing to 'disagree' about. It's not remotely related to the topic of the thread. Secondly, he used a sweeping generalization, "every other zerg player". We don't like those racial stereotypes. We ban people for dissing Terran for being OP, we ban people for dissing Zerg about complaining. Thirdly, he uses bad spelling, interpunctuation, and stereotypical low-effort internet lingo. That, too, is despicable. So in short, what we don't like is derailing a thread by posting stuff that doesn't belong there, and we give even worse marks for putting now effort into the posting. The opinion isn't important. If you disagree with anything that Idra said content-wise, you are welcome to express it, if you feel like his opinion is generally being heeded too much, you might find a way to formulate it. But not like this.
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On September 25 2010 02:39 chimthegrim wrote:This thread as an example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155453The first response was a guy that said this: Show nested quote +
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?" The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL. Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
That guy deserved it. This isn't the blizzard forums.
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hilarious how the OP got the first part of the phrase "Idra isn't god." to base his arguments, when it is obviously that it was the second part of the message that deserved him the ban.
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On September 25 2010 06:24 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 06:15 pat965 wrote:
If you have nothing useful to say, and haven't thought out your post, the absolute least you can do is not be offensive, or over-presumptuous about it, especially in the Strategy forum. I mean, the post is still a waste of space, but at least it'll probably be ignored and nobody will be offended. Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 19:49 archaik wrote:
Artosis: whine whine bitch bitch. What a dork he is. Tasteless needs a new co-commentator.
User was warned for this post You be the judge.
Lmao that clearly awards a warning imo even disregarding the ridiculous amounts of contribution artosis has made for this community. He should be temp banned for even bringing that up in this thread.
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Being strict as it is is exactly why I love this forum, the moderators are doing such a great job. and obvious troll is obvious
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On September 25 2010 06:24 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 06:15 pat965 wrote:
If you have nothing useful to say, and haven't thought out your post, the absolute least you can do is not be offensive, or over-presumptuous about it, especially in the Strategy forum. I mean, the post is still a waste of space, but at least it'll probably be ignored and nobody will be offended. Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 19:49 archaik wrote:
Artosis: whine whine bitch bitch. What a dork he is. Tasteless needs a new co-commentator.
User was warned for this post You be the judge.
hahahah, my god. I guess if you lie to yourself enough, you'll really believe you're the victim??
On September 25 2010 06:28 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Someone can say "I think artosis would be a more enjoyable commentator if he didn't complain all the time. Really hard to listen to" as opposed to what you said which has 0 value and is just annoying.
This is a way of saying the exact same thing and not get banned. You could have 1 or 100,000 posts and say this, and you would not get banned.
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On September 25 2010 06:36 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 06:35 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 06:32 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes. I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased. Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell. On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_- On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote:
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value. Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then. There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more. Except that TL is mostly ad free (minus the google ones at the top). It's not exactly cheap to pay for bandwidth for a site. It has the potential to make money, but probably does not make money. And if it does, it makes very little. TL, according to the owners, is mostly about the love, though it'd be nice to make money on it... Naz or Meat posted all about this when the site's look was changed. Ha, you're like the people from that SP episode with that line of thought. "I want your internet money." If it never makes any profit in any way, then you are correct. Keep in mind that TL is (or was) one of the main feeders of LP, which does make a lot of money (Nazgul has made made $200-300+ from me via just a small percentage of my FTP rakeback alone, and that's just one user from LP). Right, but LP is a separate entity, and I think they pay their "contributors" there anyway (contributors being writers and mods).
But TL generates traffic for LP (or did so significantly), and thus some of the LP profits has to be considered to be partially as belonging to TL.
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Yes I do agree that TL is 'a little' too strict.
IMO, they should be A LOT too strict.
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It was a bad post in that example. The OP was discussing Idras views on balance, and how zerg seem lacking, and he justs posts "Idra isnt god". He might not be, but he is a good player, and if you are going to disagree, you should post some more evidence.
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TL has to be strict, it should be more strict imo.
Now with sc2 too many ignorant replys and topics are being made, as well as replys that cause paranoia on other ignorant visitors.
Ppl feel too free to post non-quality opinions, they should limit themselves to post just when they have a real point to make.
Quality vs Quantity.
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I love how the mods behave here. I'm sick of the idea that "everyone's opinion is valid" when it includes people who just say things like the person in the quote you cited. If your response to a logical argument is nonsense like that then I think you definitely deserve to be shut up.
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Anyway what's there really to discuss here? It's their site and it's upon them to decide where and when to draw the line. If the mods did such a horrible job then most of us wouldn't even be here in the first place. You can't deem a ban unjust by just looking at a post either, as there may be other reasons behind banning in a lot of cases.
Besides, this far no one has even managed to present a case where someone was banned and it wasn't more or less his own fault.
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United States24670 Posts
I'm not sure why 'free speech' was brought up like 5 times since it's completely irrelevant. Fortunately it wasn't being brought up in the capacity of "tl limits our free speech" but still lol. If I go through your post history and remove everything you've ever said it has nothing to do with laws to protect citizens from their government.
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On September 25 2010 06:45 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 06:36 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On September 25 2010 06:35 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 06:32 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes. I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased. Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell. On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_- On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote:
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value. Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then. There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more. Except that TL is mostly ad free (minus the google ones at the top). It's not exactly cheap to pay for bandwidth for a site. It has the potential to make money, but probably does not make money. And if it does, it makes very little. TL, according to the owners, is mostly about the love, though it'd be nice to make money on it... Naz or Meat posted all about this when the site's look was changed. Ha, you're like the people from that SP episode with that line of thought. "I want your internet money." If it never makes any profit in any way, then you are correct. Keep in mind that TL is (or was) one of the main feeders of LP, which does make a lot of money (Nazgul has made made $200-300+ from me via just a small percentage of my FTP rakeback alone, and that's just one user from LP). Right, but LP is a separate entity, and I think they pay their "contributors" there anyway (contributors being writers and mods). But TL generates traffic for LP (or did so significantly), and thus some of the LP profits has to be considered to be partially as belonging to TL.
I guess I missed the point about what this has to do with anything being discussed?? Some obscure rant about how this site is nothing without the users?
Here's a little fact: Most of the users like the moderation here. It's what has kept the community viable for so long. People like you who whine about moderation apparently aren't bothered by it enough to go elsewhere. Membership is at all time high. Previously banned users come back time and time again.
All really compelling reasons to suddenly eschew strict moderation that keeps idiots out of a free forum.
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The fact that I have never been banned and never even got a warning after 5k+ posts on TL shows that this site is definitely not too strict. There is many times when I think someone should be banned, or should be banned for longer, but they are not. The moderation is a little more lax than I would want it to be.
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I think they are to strict in certain circumstances but really it keep its clean mostly. I think if they chilled out and turned it down a notch then it would be better.
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On September 25 2010 06:45 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 06:36 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On September 25 2010 06:35 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 06:32 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes. I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased. Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell. On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_- On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote:
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value. Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then. There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more. Except that TL is mostly ad free (minus the google ones at the top). It's not exactly cheap to pay for bandwidth for a site. It has the potential to make money, but probably does not make money. And if it does, it makes very little. TL, according to the owners, is mostly about the love, though it'd be nice to make money on it... Naz or Meat posted all about this when the site's look was changed. Ha, you're like the people from that SP episode with that line of thought. "I want your internet money." If it never makes any profit in any way, then you are correct. Keep in mind that TL is (or was) one of the main feeders of LP, which does make a lot of money (Nazgul has made made $200-300+ from me via just a small percentage of my FTP rakeback alone, and that's just one user from LP). Right, but LP is a separate entity, and I think they pay their "contributors" there anyway (contributors being writers and mods). But TL generates traffic for LP (or did so significantly), and thus some of the LP profits has to be considered to be partially as belonging to TL.
I guess you have a point, but there are a lot of variables to account for there.
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On September 25 2010 02:50 Mephit wrote:
I've lurked/posted in a lot of forums, and TL has the best moderators by far. They would rather have quality posting instead quantitative garbage. Even with an influx of new players they've handled it.
Thanks Mods.
This really deserves a +1.
I lurked here for a good 6 months before even making my account and only did so because of the quality usually here. I think I've seen a bit of decline, but even so it's far better here than almost every gaming forum I have known.
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TL mods are generally more likely to be stricter on the newer members.
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EPT
