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TL a little too strict on speech? - Page 11

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Nihilnovi
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden696 Posts
September 24 2010 21:11 GMT
#201
After hanging around on the internet for about 11 years now, being part of many a community, I can safely say that TL.net is the best moderated community on the internet in terms of what is allowed and what is not, while keeping the discussions interesting and funny at the same time.
BrownBear
Profile Joined March 2010
United States6894 Posts
September 24 2010 21:12 GMT
#202
Are the mods perfect? No.

Do they pretend to be? Of course not.

Sure, occasionally they make a dumb ban, but it's all part of the greater effort to keep TL a relatively idiot-free place. I have yet to get banned (fairly or unfairly), so if that ever happens, maybe I will see it differently, but for now, my stance is that the road to forum perfection is marred with the occasional whoopsie, and I'm ok with that.
SUNSFANNED
Scrubwave
Profile Joined July 2010
Poland1786 Posts
September 24 2010 21:13 GMT
#203
--- Nuked ---
matjlav
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany2435 Posts
September 24 2010 21:14 GMT
#204
I love TL's moderating staff. This is a private website, and they want to keep it from being shitty. Awesome.

I would be interested to hear statistics on how many accounts have been created vs. how many accounts have been banned.
Ryps
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Romania2740 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-24 21:17:26
September 24 2010 21:14 GMT
#205
Theres a reason manifesto has a hammer and sickle > but I remember what he said once and it made sense.

The problem, Stimy, is that you think this should be a democracy. Well, democracy barely works in the real world, and it sure as hell doesn't work on a forum with 19000 members. If you want to try it on a forum be my guest, it just wont be this one.


If they werent strict the forum would become very unwelcoming. The community is something to be proud of here on TL, and it wouldnt be possible without strict moderation.

However mods are still are still humans governed by emotions and personal opinions and do hasty bans.
pat965
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada274 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-24 21:16:34
September 24 2010 21:15 GMT
#206
If you have nothing useful to say, and haven't thought out your post, the absolute least you can do is not be offensive, or over-presumptuous about it, especially in the Strategy forum. I mean, the post is still a waste of space, but at least it'll probably be ignored and nobody will be offended.
hi
Kurr
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada2338 Posts
September 24 2010 21:16 GMT
#207
On September 25 2010 06:00 udgnim wrote:
want to add that the Ban List thread makes for some humorous reading sometimes

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696&currentpage=382


I agree. My bookmark to get to TL is that thread :D Always worth reading, some of the bans are hilarious. I just wish there was an easier to find the post that got them ban sometimes because they don't always show them; especially went the mod goes like : "How in the world did you think that was acceptable?". Brings out the curiosity in me :D
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ | ┻━┻ ︵╰(°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
archaik
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden32 Posts
September 24 2010 21:16 GMT
#208
I think they moderation is pretty arbitrary and strange. I criticized Artosis for whining about imbalance in one thread and got a warning for it, like wtf? It feels like you can't criticize certain people (Idra, Artosis, tasteless etc).
jeddus
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States832 Posts
September 24 2010 21:19 GMT
#209
TL's high standard has impacted my behavior on other sites I frequent in a positive manner.

I see industry professionals behaving in a manner that would get them banned within five minutes here on the other boards, and just sort of scratch my head.

"Thinking before you speak" is a great skill to have, and TL promotes that.
sex appeal
IamTheWhiteGuy
Profile Joined September 2010
United States93 Posts
September 24 2010 21:20 GMT
#210
TL is nothing.

I just ate a temp ban on GameFAQs for telling some moron what a moron he was because he did nothing but spam endless topics about how overpowered terran was.

And don't get me wrong, it wasn't a one word post either. It was a well constructed post taking into account everything he said and going to some efforts to provide rationale as to why he was wrong.

I wasn't kind about it, of course, but the dude deserved worse than I gave him.
The core gamer is the bastard middle child of the casual and hardcore gamer. He invests the former's effort and cries when he doesn't get the latter's results.
Aesop
Profile Joined October 2007
Hungary11305 Posts
September 24 2010 21:22 GMT
#211
On September 25 2010 06:16 archaik wrote:
I think they moderation is pretty arbitrary and strange. I criticized Artosis for whining about imbalance in one thread and got a warning for it, like wtf? It feels like you can't criticize certain people (Idra, Artosis, tasteless etc).

That's true to some extent. See TLC § 6 (Team Liquid Commandments, Paragraph Six)
ModeratorNon veritas sed auctoritas facit legem. | Liquipedia: Don't ask me, I'm retired.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25991 Posts
September 24 2010 21:24 GMT
#212
On September 25 2010 06:15 pat965 wrote:
If you have nothing useful to say, and haven't thought out your post, the absolute least you can do is not be offensive, or over-presumptuous about it, especially in the Strategy forum. I mean, the post is still a waste of space, but at least it'll probably be ignored and nobody will be offended.

On September 17 2010 19:49 archaik wrote:
Artosis: whine whine bitch bitch. What a dork he is. Tasteless needs a new co-commentator.

User was warned for this post

You be the judge.
Moderator
cz
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3249 Posts
September 24 2010 21:24 GMT
#213
On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.


I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.

Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.

Show nested quote +
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.


His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-

Show nested quote +
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote:
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.


Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.


There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
Kurr
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada2338 Posts
September 24 2010 21:26 GMT
#214
On September 25 2010 06:20 IamTheWhiteGuy wrote:
TL is nothing.

I just ate a temp ban on GameFAQs for telling some moron what a moron he was because he did nothing but spam endless topics about how overpowered terran was.

And don't get me wrong, it wasn't a one word post either. It was a well constructed post taking into account everything he said and going to some efforts to provide rationale as to why he was wrong.

I wasn't kind about it, of course, but the dude deserved worse than I gave him.


GameFAQs is different in that it is the trolls that are the mods. There's no point posting on that board honestly. Moderators go out of their way to make troll topics but if you call them out on it you get your post deleted or just banned.

Please for the love of god never compare that forum to TL again.

And I agree with the person who said the moderation here helps your posting in other forums. I look at some other forums and shake my head in despair after 1 thread pretty much everytime.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ | ┻━┻ ︵╰(°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
September 24 2010 21:27 GMT
#215
On September 25 2010 02:39 chimthegrim wrote:

This thread as an example:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155453


The first response was a guy that said this:
Show nested quote +

"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."

User was warned for this post

User was temp banned for this post.



So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"

The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.

Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.





Welcome to Team Liquid. If you haven't read the ten commandments then you probably ought to read again.

Remember one thing: this is their house rightfully so. If anything, I don't think they're strict enough. :/
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
September 24 2010 21:28 GMT
#216
On September 25 2010 06:24 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2010 06:15 pat965 wrote:
If you have nothing useful to say, and haven't thought out your post, the absolute least you can do is not be offensive, or over-presumptuous about it, especially in the Strategy forum. I mean, the post is still a waste of space, but at least it'll probably be ignored and nobody will be offended.

Show nested quote +
On September 17 2010 19:49 archaik wrote:
Artosis: whine whine bitch bitch. What a dork he is. Tasteless needs a new co-commentator.

User was warned for this post

You be the judge.


See posts like this make me question the maturity/age of some of the TL posters... how can anyone be shocked at all that they got warned for that?

Someone can say "I think artosis would be a more enjoyable commentator if he didn't complain all the time. Really hard to listen to" as opposed to what you said which has 0 value and is just annoying.

How is that at all a mystery?
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
September 24 2010 21:29 GMT
#217
On the whole, I think the mods do fine. If anything, they could be a little more strict. I'm looking at you, sc2 forums.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
SweeTLemonS[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
11739 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-24 21:35:19
September 24 2010 21:32 GMT
#218
On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.


I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.

Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.

On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.


His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-

On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote:
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.


Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.


There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.


Except that TL is mostly ad free (minus the google ones at the top). It's not exactly cheap to pay for bandwidth for a site. It has the potential to make money, but probably does not make money. And if it does, it makes very little. TL, according to the owners, is mostly about the love, though it'd be nice to make money on it... Naz or Meat posted all about this when the site's look was changed.

Ha, you're like the people from that SP episode with that line of thought. "I want your internet money."


On September 25 2010 06:29 Mindcrime wrote:
On the whole, I think the mods do fine. If anything, they could be a little more strict. I'm looking at you, sc2 forums.


Over half of the closed threads come from that forum.
I'm never gonna know you now \ But I'm gonna love you anyhow.
GGQ
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada2653 Posts
September 24 2010 21:34 GMT
#219
On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.


I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.

Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.

On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.


His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-

On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote:
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.


Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.


There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.


This would be true if all viewers added to the community. Unfortunately many detract from it. These are the ones that are successfully turned away by strict moderation. I think more people are attracted to the site by the fact that the forums are kept clear of flaming and arguing and trolling than anything else. I know for myself that I wouldn't bother reading any pages on this site if I had to wade through the sort of posts that get people banned/warned around here. So lax moderation could very well lead to fewer viewers.
cz
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3249 Posts
September 24 2010 21:35 GMT
#220
On September 25 2010 06:32 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:
On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.


I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.

Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.

On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.


His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-

On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote:
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.


Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.


There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.


Except that TL is mostly ad free (minus the google ones at the top). It's not exactly cheap to pay for bandwidth for a site. It has the potential to make money, but probably does not make money. And if it does, it makes very little. TL, according to the owners, is mostly about the love, though it'd be nice to make money on it... Naz or Meat posted all about this when the site's look was changed.

Ha, you're like the people from that SP episode with that line of thought. "I want your internet money."


If it never makes any profit in any way, then you are correct. Keep in mind that TL is (or was) one of the main feeders of LP, which does make a lot of money (Nazgul has made made $200-300+ from me via just a small percentage of my FTP rakeback alone, and that's just one user from LP).
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