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On August 26 2010 03:31 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:
You need to chill out with this flaming, you clearly don't understand the issue. I am not a bigot and neither are most Americans. I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are wife-beaters or terrorists. However, I am opposed to the mosque because it is too close to ground zero. They can build it anywhere else, just not near there. Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory.
Most New Yorkers and most Americans are against the mosque. Use google to verify, plenty of poll numbers out there. You can't claim to be free of racism or bigotry and then immediately say Muslims shouldn't be allowed to build a place of worship. It's a complete failure of logic to try to do so. By attempting to prevent the [l]ground zero mosque[/l] community center 2 blocks away from ground zero, you are essentially associating Islam with terrorism. You're guilty of associating an entire religion (not to mention one of the largest religions) with the actions of a few people belonging to an extremist sect.
The opposition to the mosque is its proximity. The opposition prefers that the developers build the mosque further away from the ground zero memorial. Nearly everybody knows that the developers can build the mosque wherever they like. The attacks were done by extremists in the name of Islam, the families don't want a mosque built near the attack site. I agree that there is a guilt by association factor in this.
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On August 26 2010 03:17 ZeaL. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 02:56 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 02:51 JinNJuice wrote:On August 26 2010 02:34 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 02:06 funnybananaman wrote:
So stupid lol.. there are so many bigger problems in america, why are people are wasting so much time and energy on this -_-
Comparing the people building the mosque who's whole purpose is to bridge faiths and stuff to foreign terrorists who just use islam as a front for their violent political agenda is totally retarded. There's nothing bad about what they're doing. Plus they've been in the neighborhood for years.
Terrorists want to isolate muslims from christians so they can make it black and white (christians vs muslims, us and THEM) because then more muslims will identify with them and they'll get more support. We should embrace regular islam in america so that way muslims aren't alienated and aren't given incentives to join the radical side. Bridging the gap between muslims and other americans is a blow to terrorism and thats what the mosque is trying to do.
Ron Paul put it well: First of all, Ron Paul is a nutjob. All recent polls show that a large majority of Americans, as well as New Yorkers, are against construction of the mosque. Why are the developers insistent upon constructing the mosque when it is only going to make people angry? At this point, the mosque is not "bridging cultures." It's pissing people off and contributing to "Islamophobia." If is constructed, it will be seen as a symbol of victory by the jihadists and will be trumpeted throughout the Middle East. The mosque is two blocks away from ground zero (it's 1 block from a subway stop, 2-3 min walk from ground zero). Doing some quick research, the closest mosque in the area is the Masjid Manhattan, which is 4 blocks away to the NW, that mosque has been in NYC for 40 years. I don't know of any other mosques closer than that one. If the developers were able to purchase property and build a mosque 1 block away from Ground Zero, they would do so. The construction of the "cultural center" is extremely offensive to the families of 9/11. I wish people would stop making excuses for the fact that they're just bigots against Muslims. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with people opposing this if they just say "Hey, we don't want this mosque here because we don't like Muslims." I'm sure theres a group of people who wouldn't want to build a Korean restaraunt near Ground Zero, because Kimchi smells like shit (if you're not korean) and it's a disrespect to the 9/11 victims. Stop pretending that you don't care that its a mosque and the reason you're offended is because it's disrespectful to victims. Just accept the fact that the reason you don't want it built there is because you're bigots. And ffs, if we BAN the mosque, THAT will be held up as a victory for terrorists. I can read the headlines now...."America Bans Muslim Mosque. Anti-American Sentiment Grows" I am not a bigot. If 60% of Americans are against the mosque, do you think that most Americans are bigots? Use some common sense, building a mosque next to ground zero is offensive. I don't understand how people don't see this. You are a bigot. And 60% of Americans are bigots, if that number is to be believed. Let me definte bigot for you: Show nested quote +A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern American English refers to persons hostile to those of differing race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation and religion. Get it? Why the fuck do people oppose the mosque? They think its offensive or some shit because the people building the facility are the same religion as the people who committed 9/11 right? Inherent in that statement is the assumption is that all Muslims are the same, brown terrorists who beat their women and stone people for having sex. And somehow the guys building the facility are making a victory memorial or some shit because they're the same as the guys who did 9/11. Guess what bigot? If all Muslims were the same, and all Muslims were terrorists, we'd all be dead by now or at least fighting for our lives because we'd have 1.82 billion motherfuckers bombing the crap out of everything. Even if there are a total of 100,000 Muslim terrorists in the world that is only .5% of the world's Muslim population. Why the fuck does 99.5% of the Muslim population have to be held accountable for the <.5% that does messed up shit? Edit: Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:06 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:00 redviper wrote:On August 26 2010 02:56 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 02:51 JinNJuice wrote:On August 26 2010 02:34 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 02:06 funnybananaman wrote:
So stupid lol.. there are so many bigger problems in america, why are people are wasting so much time and energy on this -_-
Comparing the people building the mosque who's whole purpose is to bridge faiths and stuff to foreign terrorists who just use islam as a front for their violent political agenda is totally retarded. There's nothing bad about what they're doing. Plus they've been in the neighborhood for years.
Terrorists want to isolate muslims from christians so they can make it black and white (christians vs muslims, us and THEM) because then more muslims will identify with them and they'll get more support. We should embrace regular islam in america so that way muslims aren't alienated and aren't given incentives to join the radical side. Bridging the gap between muslims and other americans is a blow to terrorism and thats what the mosque is trying to do.
Ron Paul put it well: First of all, Ron Paul is a nutjob. All recent polls show that a large majority of Americans, as well as New Yorkers, are against construction of the mosque. Why are the developers insistent upon constructing the mosque when it is only going to make people angry? At this point, the mosque is not "bridging cultures." It's pissing people off and contributing to "Islamophobia." If is constructed, it will be seen as a symbol of victory by the jihadists and will be trumpeted throughout the Middle East. The mosque is two blocks away from ground zero (it's 1 block from a subway stop, 2-3 min walk from ground zero). Doing some quick research, the closest mosque in the area is the Masjid Manhattan, which is 4 blocks away to the NW, that mosque has been in NYC for 40 years. I don't know of any other mosques closer than that one. If the developers were able to purchase property and build a mosque 1 block away from Ground Zero, they would do so. The construction of the "cultural center" is extremely offensive to the families of 9/11. I wish people would stop making excuses for the fact that they're just bigots against Muslims. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with people opposing this if they just say "Hey, we don't want this mosque here because we don't like Muslims." I'm sure theres a group of people who wouldn't want to build a Korean restaraunt near Ground Zero, because Kimchi smells like shit (if you're not korean) and it's a disrespect to the 9/11 victims. Stop pretending that you don't care that its a mosque and the reason you're offended is because it's disrespectful to victims. Just accept the fact that the reason you don't want it built there is because you're bigots. And ffs, if we BAN the mosque, THAT will be held up as a victory for terrorists. I can read the headlines now...."America Bans Muslim Mosque. Anti-American Sentiment Grows" I am not a bigot. If 60% of Americans are against the mosque, do you think that most Americans are bigots? Use some common sense, building a mosque next to ground zero is offensive. I don't understand how people don't see this. Wasn't that long ago that 60% of Americans were supporting segregating. Wasn't that long ago that 60% of Americans had slaves. For that matter wasn't that long ago that 90% of the world thought earth was flat and the sun revolved around Earth. Facts aren't changed because the majority believes something different. Bigotry is still bigotry even if 99% of the people think it is justified. Infact bigotry is still bigotry even if it actually is justified. Why is opposition to the mosque bigotry? People are opposed to the mosque because of its location. Building it anywhere else is fine. The developers have made it a point to build it as close to ground zero as they can. Jesus man. People aren't opposed to it because of its location. Its just the media stirring people up. There's already a mosque just 4 blocks away from ground zero, and its an ACTUAL mosque not a YMIA. Anyways, how far would be a distance that's "OKAY" with people who oppose this? 5 blocks? 10 blocks? 100 blocks? Where does ground zero stop being ground zero? Did all of Manhattan become ground zero overnight?
The problem with your claims of bigotry are as follows:
1) If we believe that statistic that 60% of Americans are against the construction of the mosque, we must also believe that more than 60% believe in the right of the people behind it to construct it (which was a statistic given in the same article as the previous one). Most Americans aren't dumb, and they know what rights other people have. Just because 60% don't like it doesn't mean that they don't think they have the right to build it.
2) If I'm against the construction of all mosques, churches and synagogues, am I a bigot? The definition you gave does not directly relate the opposition to the building of certain structures to the intolerance of the people that will use those structures. It is directly related to the intolerance of the beliefs of those people. Those are two very different things.
3) The people who legitimately think that they have no right to build at that location, on property that they purchased, are flat out wrong and there's no reason to argue with them. Nobody's going to try to take them to court over it and try to find legal ways to stop the construction. It's up to the builders to consider whether or not they want to proceed. They have every right to, they just have to realize that because everybody's so swayed by the media in this country, lots of people are going to get really pissed off. Of course, it shouldn't really matter to them because they're under the assumption that the infidels are wrong about Islam anyway.
I would only use the term "bigot" to describe someone who meets all of the following criteria:
Vehemently against the rights of certain people to build what they want on their own land. Intolerant of people with opposing beliefs, in that they want nothing to do with them and think the world would be better without them.
Lots of people probably walk on the edge of bigotry because they think that the world would be better without certain belief systems while still realizing the importance and necessity of some of the people who hold those beliefs. Those people I would not call bigots, because their problems aren't with people, they are with philosophy.
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On August 26 2010 03:39 ZeaL. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:17 ZeaL. wrote:On August 26 2010 02:56 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 02:51 JinNJuice wrote:On August 26 2010 02:34 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 02:06 funnybananaman wrote:
So stupid lol.. there are so many bigger problems in america, why are people are wasting so much time and energy on this -_-
Comparing the people building the mosque who's whole purpose is to bridge faiths and stuff to foreign terrorists who just use islam as a front for their violent political agenda is totally retarded. There's nothing bad about what they're doing. Plus they've been in the neighborhood for years.
Terrorists want to isolate muslims from christians so they can make it black and white (christians vs muslims, us and THEM) because then more muslims will identify with them and they'll get more support. We should embrace regular islam in america so that way muslims aren't alienated and aren't given incentives to join the radical side. Bridging the gap between muslims and other americans is a blow to terrorism and thats what the mosque is trying to do.
Ron Paul put it well: First of all, Ron Paul is a nutjob. All recent polls show that a large majority of Americans, as well as New Yorkers, are against construction of the mosque. Why are the developers insistent upon constructing the mosque when it is only going to make people angry? At this point, the mosque is not "bridging cultures." It's pissing people off and contributing to "Islamophobia." If is constructed, it will be seen as a symbol of victory by the jihadists and will be trumpeted throughout the Middle East. The mosque is two blocks away from ground zero (it's 1 block from a subway stop, 2-3 min walk from ground zero). Doing some quick research, the closest mosque in the area is the Masjid Manhattan, which is 4 blocks away to the NW, that mosque has been in NYC for 40 years. I don't know of any other mosques closer than that one. If the developers were able to purchase property and build a mosque 1 block away from Ground Zero, they would do so. The construction of the "cultural center" is extremely offensive to the families of 9/11. I wish people would stop making excuses for the fact that they're just bigots against Muslims. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with people opposing this if they just say "Hey, we don't want this mosque here because we don't like Muslims." I'm sure theres a group of people who wouldn't want to build a Korean restaraunt near Ground Zero, because Kimchi smells like shit (if you're not korean) and it's a disrespect to the 9/11 victims. Stop pretending that you don't care that its a mosque and the reason you're offended is because it's disrespectful to victims. Just accept the fact that the reason you don't want it built there is because you're bigots. And ffs, if we BAN the mosque, THAT will be held up as a victory for terrorists. I can read the headlines now...."America Bans Muslim Mosque. Anti-American Sentiment Grows" I am not a bigot. If 60% of Americans are against the mosque, do you think that most Americans are bigots? Use some common sense, building a mosque next to ground zero is offensive. I don't understand how people don't see this. You are a bigot. And 60% of Americans are bigots, if that number is to be believed. Let me definte bigot for you: A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern American English refers to persons hostile to those of differing race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation and religion. Get it? Why the fuck do people oppose the mosque? They think its offensive or some shit because the people building the facility are the same religion as the people who committed 9/11 right? Inherent in that statement is the assumption is that all Muslims are the same, brown terrorists who beat their women and stone people for having sex. And somehow the guys building the facility are making a victory memorial or some shit. Guess what bigot? If all Muslims were the same, and all Muslims were terrorists, we'd all be dead by now or at least fighting for our lives because we'd have 1.82 billion motherfuckers bombing the crap out of everything. Even if there are a total of 100,000 Muslim terrorists in the world that is only .5% of the world's Muslim population. Why the fuck does 99.5% of the Muslim population have to be held accountable for the <.5% that does messed up shit? You need to chill out with this flaming, you clearly don't understand the issue. I am not a bigot and neither are most Americans. I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are wife-beaters or terrorists. However, I am opposed to the mosque because it is too close to ground zero. They can build it anywhere else, just not near there. Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory. Most New Yorkers and most Americans are against the mosque. Use google to verify, plenty of poll numbers out there. I don't give a shit if most Americans are against the mosque, that doesn't justify anything. And I revise my statement, you might not be a bigot but if you aren't you're just plain ignorant. Explain to me how building this "mosque next to ground zero" is a victory for terrorists? If anything the opposition to the mosque is a victory for terrorists by showing Americans to be the close minded, racist bigots that many of them are.
Islamic extremists will view this as a victory, like I said, this is plain as day. I'll ignore the rest of your ranting.
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On August 26 2010 03:44 thesighter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:31 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:
You need to chill out with this flaming, you clearly don't understand the issue. I am not a bigot and neither are most Americans. I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are wife-beaters or terrorists. However, I am opposed to the mosque because it is too close to ground zero. They can build it anywhere else, just not near there. Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory.
Most New Yorkers and most Americans are against the mosque. Use google to verify, plenty of poll numbers out there. You can't claim to be free of racism or bigotry and then immediately say Muslims shouldn't be allowed to build a place of worship. It's a complete failure of logic to try to do so. By attempting to prevent the [l]ground zero mosque[/l] community center 2 blocks away from ground zero, you are essentially associating Islam with terrorism. You're guilty of associating an entire religion (not to mention one of the largest religions) with the actions of a few people belonging to an extremist sect. The opposition to the mosque is its proximity. The opposition prefers that the developers build the mosque further away from the ground zero memorial. Nearly everybody knows that the developers can build the mosque wherever they like. The attacks were done by extremists in the name of Islam, the families don't want a mosque built near the attack site. I agree that there is a guilt by association factor in this.
At this point, words are failing me. I think you, thesighter, highlight everything wrong with this debate. Your inability to see that condemning A WHOLE RELIGION by association immediately makes you either racist, or just a complete idiot is hilarious to me.
And Meta, I think Zeal and I are just frustrated at thesighter, and thus have to resort to match his sweeping generalizations with generalizations of our own. Obviously we don't think that all 60% of these people are racist against Muslims, but there are quite a few who are.
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On August 26 2010 03:44 thesighter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:31 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:
You need to chill out with this flaming, you clearly don't understand the issue. I am not a bigot and neither are most Americans. I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are wife-beaters or terrorists. However, I am opposed to the mosque because it is too close to ground zero. They can build it anywhere else, just not near there. Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory.
Most New Yorkers and most Americans are against the mosque. Use google to verify, plenty of poll numbers out there. You can't claim to be free of racism or bigotry and then immediately say Muslims shouldn't be allowed to build a place of worship. It's a complete failure of logic to try to do so. By attempting to prevent the [l]ground zero mosque[/l] community center 2 blocks away from ground zero, you are essentially associating Islam with terrorism. You're guilty of associating an entire religion (not to mention one of the largest religions) with the actions of a few people belonging to an extremist sect. The opposition to the mosque is its proximity. The opposition prefers that the developers build the mosque further away from the ground zero memorial. Nearly everybody knows that the developers can build the mosque wherever they like. The attacks were done by extremists in the name of Islam, the families don't want a mosque built near the attack site. I agree that there is a guilt by association factor in this.
So how far away is sufficient? Is there any metric that could satisfy the people who are making irrational protests against the construction? Another poster has already mentioned there's an older mosque 4 blocks away from ground zero, is 4 blocks sufficient whereas 2 is not?
What's your proposed building location for the community center? Keep in mind real estate in the heart of NY isn't exactly easily available.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:
Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory.
i don't understand this point. "a man's legal right to do what he will with his property is upheld, religious tolerance prevails, this is a great victory for us terrorists!!". You know what'd really show those terrorists they can't bring down America? Continuing business as usual, not pointlessly delaying commerce and the return of economic progress in a previously-bustling area because of how you "feel" about a "mosque". What does it even matter if the terrorists view it as a victory? It's a tremendous shame that what I just said is merely a fantasy, because it ought to be common sense.
the entire area around the former site of the WTC is basically a ghost town, drastically lowering property value. if the people in charge think terrorists are watching what is built nearby and counting everything they can as a victory or defeat, they should have rebuilt the same damn towers.
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On August 26 2010 03:48 JinNJuice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:44 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:31 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:
You need to chill out with this flaming, you clearly don't understand the issue. I am not a bigot and neither are most Americans. I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are wife-beaters or terrorists. However, I am opposed to the mosque because it is too close to ground zero. They can build it anywhere else, just not near there. Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory.
Most New Yorkers and most Americans are against the mosque. Use google to verify, plenty of poll numbers out there. You can't claim to be free of racism or bigotry and then immediately say Muslims shouldn't be allowed to build a place of worship. It's a complete failure of logic to try to do so. By attempting to prevent the [l]ground zero mosque[/l] community center 2 blocks away from ground zero, you are essentially associating Islam with terrorism. You're guilty of associating an entire religion (not to mention one of the largest religions) with the actions of a few people belonging to an extremist sect. The opposition to the mosque is its proximity. The opposition prefers that the developers build the mosque further away from the ground zero memorial. Nearly everybody knows that the developers can build the mosque wherever they like. The attacks were done by extremists in the name of Islam, the families don't want a mosque built near the attack site. I agree that there is a guilt by association factor in this. At this point, words are failing me. I think you, thesighter, highlight everything wrong with this debate. Your inability to see that condemning A WHOLE RELIGION by association immediately makes you either racist, or just a complete idiot is hilarious to me.
I am not condemning a whole religion. I just don't want the mosque built next to ground zero in this case. It's offensive to the 9/11 families, is not supported by most americans or new yorkers, and will be viewed as a victory symbol for the Islamic terrorists. Any other mosque, any other situation, any other location, I'm fine with the developers building it.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On August 26 2010 03:44 thesighter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:31 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:
You need to chill out with this flaming, you clearly don't understand the issue. I am not a bigot and neither are most Americans. I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are wife-beaters or terrorists. However, I am opposed to the mosque because it is too close to ground zero. They can build it anywhere else, just not near there. Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory.
Most New Yorkers and most Americans are against the mosque. Use google to verify, plenty of poll numbers out there. You can't claim to be free of racism or bigotry and then immediately say Muslims shouldn't be allowed to build a place of worship. It's a complete failure of logic to try to do so. By attempting to prevent the [l]ground zero mosque[/l] community center 2 blocks away from ground zero, you are essentially associating Islam with terrorism. You're guilty of associating an entire religion (not to mention one of the largest religions) with the actions of a few people belonging to an extremist sect. The opposition to the mosque is its proximity. The opposition prefers that the developers build the mosque further away from the ground zero memorial. Nearly everybody knows that the developers can build the mosque wherever they like. The attacks were done by extremists in the name of Islam, the families don't want a mosque built near the attack site. I agree that there is a guilt by association factor in this.
that guilt by association is not fair whatsoever & should be immediately discarded
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On August 26 2010 03:46 thesighter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:39 ZeaL. wrote:On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:17 ZeaL. wrote:On August 26 2010 02:56 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 02:51 JinNJuice wrote:On August 26 2010 02:34 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 02:06 funnybananaman wrote:
So stupid lol.. there are so many bigger problems in america, why are people are wasting so much time and energy on this -_-
Comparing the people building the mosque who's whole purpose is to bridge faiths and stuff to foreign terrorists who just use islam as a front for their violent political agenda is totally retarded. There's nothing bad about what they're doing. Plus they've been in the neighborhood for years.
Terrorists want to isolate muslims from christians so they can make it black and white (christians vs muslims, us and THEM) because then more muslims will identify with them and they'll get more support. We should embrace regular islam in america so that way muslims aren't alienated and aren't given incentives to join the radical side. Bridging the gap between muslims and other americans is a blow to terrorism and thats what the mosque is trying to do.
Ron Paul put it well: First of all, Ron Paul is a nutjob. All recent polls show that a large majority of Americans, as well as New Yorkers, are against construction of the mosque. Why are the developers insistent upon constructing the mosque when it is only going to make people angry? At this point, the mosque is not "bridging cultures." It's pissing people off and contributing to "Islamophobia." If is constructed, it will be seen as a symbol of victory by the jihadists and will be trumpeted throughout the Middle East. The mosque is two blocks away from ground zero (it's 1 block from a subway stop, 2-3 min walk from ground zero). Doing some quick research, the closest mosque in the area is the Masjid Manhattan, which is 4 blocks away to the NW, that mosque has been in NYC for 40 years. I don't know of any other mosques closer than that one. If the developers were able to purchase property and build a mosque 1 block away from Ground Zero, they would do so. The construction of the "cultural center" is extremely offensive to the families of 9/11. I wish people would stop making excuses for the fact that they're just bigots against Muslims. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with people opposing this if they just say "Hey, we don't want this mosque here because we don't like Muslims." I'm sure theres a group of people who wouldn't want to build a Korean restaraunt near Ground Zero, because Kimchi smells like shit (if you're not korean) and it's a disrespect to the 9/11 victims. Stop pretending that you don't care that its a mosque and the reason you're offended is because it's disrespectful to victims. Just accept the fact that the reason you don't want it built there is because you're bigots. And ffs, if we BAN the mosque, THAT will be held up as a victory for terrorists. I can read the headlines now...."America Bans Muslim Mosque. Anti-American Sentiment Grows" I am not a bigot. If 60% of Americans are against the mosque, do you think that most Americans are bigots? Use some common sense, building a mosque next to ground zero is offensive. I don't understand how people don't see this. You are a bigot. And 60% of Americans are bigots, if that number is to be believed. Let me definte bigot for you: A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern American English refers to persons hostile to those of differing race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation and religion. Get it? Why the fuck do people oppose the mosque? They think its offensive or some shit because the people building the facility are the same religion as the people who committed 9/11 right? Inherent in that statement is the assumption is that all Muslims are the same, brown terrorists who beat their women and stone people for having sex. And somehow the guys building the facility are making a victory memorial or some shit. Guess what bigot? If all Muslims were the same, and all Muslims were terrorists, we'd all be dead by now or at least fighting for our lives because we'd have 1.82 billion motherfuckers bombing the crap out of everything. Even if there are a total of 100,000 Muslim terrorists in the world that is only .5% of the world's Muslim population. Why the fuck does 99.5% of the Muslim population have to be held accountable for the <.5% that does messed up shit? You need to chill out with this flaming, you clearly don't understand the issue. I am not a bigot and neither are most Americans. I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are wife-beaters or terrorists. However, I am opposed to the mosque because it is too close to ground zero. They can build it anywhere else, just not near there. Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory. Most New Yorkers and most Americans are against the mosque. Use google to verify, plenty of poll numbers out there. I don't give a shit if most Americans are against the mosque, that doesn't justify anything. And I revise my statement, you might not be a bigot but if you aren't you're just plain ignorant. Explain to me how building this "mosque next to ground zero" is a victory for terrorists? If anything the opposition to the mosque is a victory for terrorists by showing Americans to be the close minded, racist bigots that many of them are. Islamic extremists will view this as a victory, like I said, this is plain as day. I'll ignore the rest of your ranting.
thesighter has neither cited any sources for this absurd idea nor explained how it could be a reason to cancel the project. He failed to answer my earlier critiques of his argument and simply reiterated something that he made up in his head. Obviously he has lost the argument.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On August 26 2010 03:52 thesighter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:48 JinNJuice wrote:On August 26 2010 03:44 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:31 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:
You need to chill out with this flaming, you clearly don't understand the issue. I am not a bigot and neither are most Americans. I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are wife-beaters or terrorists. However, I am opposed to the mosque because it is too close to ground zero. They can build it anywhere else, just not near there. Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory.
Most New Yorkers and most Americans are against the mosque. Use google to verify, plenty of poll numbers out there. You can't claim to be free of racism or bigotry and then immediately say Muslims shouldn't be allowed to build a place of worship. It's a complete failure of logic to try to do so. By attempting to prevent the [l]ground zero mosque[/l] community center 2 blocks away from ground zero, you are essentially associating Islam with terrorism. You're guilty of associating an entire religion (not to mention one of the largest religions) with the actions of a few people belonging to an extremist sect. The opposition to the mosque is its proximity. The opposition prefers that the developers build the mosque further away from the ground zero memorial. Nearly everybody knows that the developers can build the mosque wherever they like. The attacks were done by extremists in the name of Islam, the families don't want a mosque built near the attack site. I agree that there is a guilt by association factor in this. At this point, words are failing me. I think you, thesighter, highlight everything wrong with this debate. Your inability to see that condemning A WHOLE RELIGION by association immediately makes you either racist, or just a complete idiot is hilarious to me. I am not condemning a whole religion. I just don't want the mosque built next to ground zero in this case. It's offensive to the 9/11 families, is not supported by most americans or new yorkers, and will be viewed as a victory symbol for the Islamic terrorists. Any other mosque, any other situation, any other location, I'm fine with the developers building it.
it's only offensive if you're ignorant, that's the driving point here. I don't mean to call you personally ignorant, you obviously have some sort of point but I don't think you're getting it across.
Can you give some reason as to why it would be offensive other than 'because the attacks were carried out by Muslims'?
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thesighter, if you can tell me why you think that building the community center there is offensive to 9/11 families without saying that it's built by Muslims and Muslims were responsible (which is racist btw), then I will accept your argument.
Damn, FakeSteve beats me to it...
ok seriously.....stop using Wikipedia as your source. And how does a building damaged from wreckage from the WTC have anything to do with this?
Damnit I'm hoping you notice these edits because I'm trying to keep down the posts.
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On August 26 2010 03:50 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:44 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:31 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:
You need to chill out with this flaming, you clearly don't understand the issue. I am not a bigot and neither are most Americans. I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are wife-beaters or terrorists. However, I am opposed to the mosque because it is too close to ground zero. They can build it anywhere else, just not near there. Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory.
Most New Yorkers and most Americans are against the mosque. Use google to verify, plenty of poll numbers out there. You can't claim to be free of racism or bigotry and then immediately say Muslims shouldn't be allowed to build a place of worship. It's a complete failure of logic to try to do so. By attempting to prevent the [l]ground zero mosque[/l] community center 2 blocks away from ground zero, you are essentially associating Islam with terrorism. You're guilty of associating an entire religion (not to mention one of the largest religions) with the actions of a few people belonging to an extremist sect. The opposition to the mosque is its proximity. The opposition prefers that the developers build the mosque further away from the ground zero memorial. Nearly everybody knows that the developers can build the mosque wherever they like. The attacks were done by extremists in the name of Islam, the families don't want a mosque built near the attack site. I agree that there is a guilt by association factor in this. So how far away is sufficient? Is there any metric that could satisfy the people who are making irrational protests against the construction? Another poster has already mentioned there's an older mosque 4 blocks away from ground zero, is 4 blocks sufficient whereas 2 is not? What's your proposed building location for the community center? Keep in mind real estate in the heart of NY isn't exactly easily available.
4 or more is fine. I am the poster that brought up these numbers, I don't think most of the people in this thread have done their research.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park51#Interpretations_of_the_debate
One of the reasons why they purchased that location was because a piece of the 911 wreckage damaged the building. There is significance in its location.
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On August 26 2010 03:46 thesighter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:39 ZeaL. wrote:On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:17 ZeaL. wrote:On August 26 2010 02:56 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 02:51 JinNJuice wrote:On August 26 2010 02:34 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 02:06 funnybananaman wrote:
So stupid lol.. there are so many bigger problems in america, why are people are wasting so much time and energy on this -_-
Comparing the people building the mosque who's whole purpose is to bridge faiths and stuff to foreign terrorists who just use islam as a front for their violent political agenda is totally retarded. There's nothing bad about what they're doing. Plus they've been in the neighborhood for years.
Terrorists want to isolate muslims from christians so they can make it black and white (christians vs muslims, us and THEM) because then more muslims will identify with them and they'll get more support. We should embrace regular islam in america so that way muslims aren't alienated and aren't given incentives to join the radical side. Bridging the gap between muslims and other americans is a blow to terrorism and thats what the mosque is trying to do.
Ron Paul put it well: First of all, Ron Paul is a nutjob. All recent polls show that a large majority of Americans, as well as New Yorkers, are against construction of the mosque. Why are the developers insistent upon constructing the mosque when it is only going to make people angry? At this point, the mosque is not "bridging cultures." It's pissing people off and contributing to "Islamophobia." If is constructed, it will be seen as a symbol of victory by the jihadists and will be trumpeted throughout the Middle East. The mosque is two blocks away from ground zero (it's 1 block from a subway stop, 2-3 min walk from ground zero). Doing some quick research, the closest mosque in the area is the Masjid Manhattan, which is 4 blocks away to the NW, that mosque has been in NYC for 40 years. I don't know of any other mosques closer than that one. If the developers were able to purchase property and build a mosque 1 block away from Ground Zero, they would do so. The construction of the "cultural center" is extremely offensive to the families of 9/11. I wish people would stop making excuses for the fact that they're just bigots against Muslims. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with people opposing this if they just say "Hey, we don't want this mosque here because we don't like Muslims." I'm sure theres a group of people who wouldn't want to build a Korean restaraunt near Ground Zero, because Kimchi smells like shit (if you're not korean) and it's a disrespect to the 9/11 victims. Stop pretending that you don't care that its a mosque and the reason you're offended is because it's disrespectful to victims. Just accept the fact that the reason you don't want it built there is because you're bigots. And ffs, if we BAN the mosque, THAT will be held up as a victory for terrorists. I can read the headlines now...."America Bans Muslim Mosque. Anti-American Sentiment Grows" I am not a bigot. If 60% of Americans are against the mosque, do you think that most Americans are bigots? Use some common sense, building a mosque next to ground zero is offensive. I don't understand how people don't see this. You are a bigot. And 60% of Americans are bigots, if that number is to be believed. Let me definte bigot for you: A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern American English refers to persons hostile to those of differing race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation and religion. Get it? Why the fuck do people oppose the mosque? They think its offensive or some shit because the people building the facility are the same religion as the people who committed 9/11 right? Inherent in that statement is the assumption is that all Muslims are the same, brown terrorists who beat their women and stone people for having sex. And somehow the guys building the facility are making a victory memorial or some shit. Guess what bigot? If all Muslims were the same, and all Muslims were terrorists, we'd all be dead by now or at least fighting for our lives because we'd have 1.82 billion motherfuckers bombing the crap out of everything. Even if there are a total of 100,000 Muslim terrorists in the world that is only .5% of the world's Muslim population. Why the fuck does 99.5% of the Muslim population have to be held accountable for the <.5% that does messed up shit? You need to chill out with this flaming, you clearly don't understand the issue. I am not a bigot and neither are most Americans. I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are wife-beaters or terrorists. However, I am opposed to the mosque because it is too close to ground zero. They can build it anywhere else, just not near there. Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory. Most New Yorkers and most Americans are against the mosque. Use google to verify, plenty of poll numbers out there. I don't give a shit if most Americans are against the mosque, that doesn't justify anything. And I revise my statement, you might not be a bigot but if you aren't you're just plain ignorant. Explain to me how building this "mosque next to ground zero" is a victory for terrorists? If anything the opposition to the mosque is a victory for terrorists by showing Americans to be the close minded, racist bigots that many of them are. Islamic extremists will view this as a victory, like I said, this is plain as day. I'll ignore the rest of your ranting.
Why. You still haven't explained why. I really cannot wrap my head around this, explain this to me like I'm a 5 year old kid. You can't just make a statement and then state that its true because its true.
On August 26 2010 03:45 Meta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:17 ZeaL. wrote:On August 26 2010 02:56 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 02:51 JinNJuice wrote:On August 26 2010 02:34 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 02:06 funnybananaman wrote:
So stupid lol.. there are so many bigger problems in america, why are people are wasting so much time and energy on this -_-
Comparing the people building the mosque who's whole purpose is to bridge faiths and stuff to foreign terrorists who just use islam as a front for their violent political agenda is totally retarded. There's nothing bad about what they're doing. Plus they've been in the neighborhood for years.
Terrorists want to isolate muslims from christians so they can make it black and white (christians vs muslims, us and THEM) because then more muslims will identify with them and they'll get more support. We should embrace regular islam in america so that way muslims aren't alienated and aren't given incentives to join the radical side. Bridging the gap between muslims and other americans is a blow to terrorism and thats what the mosque is trying to do.
Ron Paul put it well: First of all, Ron Paul is a nutjob. All recent polls show that a large majority of Americans, as well as New Yorkers, are against construction of the mosque. Why are the developers insistent upon constructing the mosque when it is only going to make people angry? At this point, the mosque is not "bridging cultures." It's pissing people off and contributing to "Islamophobia." If is constructed, it will be seen as a symbol of victory by the jihadists and will be trumpeted throughout the Middle East. The mosque is two blocks away from ground zero (it's 1 block from a subway stop, 2-3 min walk from ground zero). Doing some quick research, the closest mosque in the area is the Masjid Manhattan, which is 4 blocks away to the NW, that mosque has been in NYC for 40 years. I don't know of any other mosques closer than that one. If the developers were able to purchase property and build a mosque 1 block away from Ground Zero, they would do so. The construction of the "cultural center" is extremely offensive to the families of 9/11. I wish people would stop making excuses for the fact that they're just bigots against Muslims. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with people opposing this if they just say "Hey, we don't want this mosque here because we don't like Muslims." I'm sure theres a group of people who wouldn't want to build a Korean restaraunt near Ground Zero, because Kimchi smells like shit (if you're not korean) and it's a disrespect to the 9/11 victims. Stop pretending that you don't care that its a mosque and the reason you're offended is because it's disrespectful to victims. Just accept the fact that the reason you don't want it built there is because you're bigots. And ffs, if we BAN the mosque, THAT will be held up as a victory for terrorists. I can read the headlines now...."America Bans Muslim Mosque. Anti-American Sentiment Grows" I am not a bigot. If 60% of Americans are against the mosque, do you think that most Americans are bigots? Use some common sense, building a mosque next to ground zero is offensive. I don't understand how people don't see this. You are a bigot. And 60% of Americans are bigots, if that number is to be believed. Let me definte bigot for you: A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern American English refers to persons hostile to those of differing race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation and religion. Get it? Why the fuck do people oppose the mosque? They think its offensive or some shit because the people building the facility are the same religion as the people who committed 9/11 right? Inherent in that statement is the assumption is that all Muslims are the same, brown terrorists who beat their women and stone people for having sex. And somehow the guys building the facility are making a victory memorial or some shit because they're the same as the guys who did 9/11. Guess what bigot? If all Muslims were the same, and all Muslims were terrorists, we'd all be dead by now or at least fighting for our lives because we'd have 1.82 billion motherfuckers bombing the crap out of everything. Even if there are a total of 100,000 Muslim terrorists in the world that is only .5% of the world's Muslim population. Why the fuck does 99.5% of the Muslim population have to be held accountable for the <.5% that does messed up shit? Edit: On August 26 2010 03:06 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:00 redviper wrote:On August 26 2010 02:56 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 02:51 JinNJuice wrote:On August 26 2010 02:34 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 02:06 funnybananaman wrote:
So stupid lol.. there are so many bigger problems in america, why are people are wasting so much time and energy on this -_-
Comparing the people building the mosque who's whole purpose is to bridge faiths and stuff to foreign terrorists who just use islam as a front for their violent political agenda is totally retarded. There's nothing bad about what they're doing. Plus they've been in the neighborhood for years.
Terrorists want to isolate muslims from christians so they can make it black and white (christians vs muslims, us and THEM) because then more muslims will identify with them and they'll get more support. We should embrace regular islam in america so that way muslims aren't alienated and aren't given incentives to join the radical side. Bridging the gap between muslims and other americans is a blow to terrorism and thats what the mosque is trying to do.
Ron Paul put it well: First of all, Ron Paul is a nutjob. All recent polls show that a large majority of Americans, as well as New Yorkers, are against construction of the mosque. Why are the developers insistent upon constructing the mosque when it is only going to make people angry? At this point, the mosque is not "bridging cultures." It's pissing people off and contributing to "Islamophobia." If is constructed, it will be seen as a symbol of victory by the jihadists and will be trumpeted throughout the Middle East. The mosque is two blocks away from ground zero (it's 1 block from a subway stop, 2-3 min walk from ground zero). Doing some quick research, the closest mosque in the area is the Masjid Manhattan, which is 4 blocks away to the NW, that mosque has been in NYC for 40 years. I don't know of any other mosques closer than that one. If the developers were able to purchase property and build a mosque 1 block away from Ground Zero, they would do so. The construction of the "cultural center" is extremely offensive to the families of 9/11. I wish people would stop making excuses for the fact that they're just bigots against Muslims. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with people opposing this if they just say "Hey, we don't want this mosque here because we don't like Muslims." I'm sure theres a group of people who wouldn't want to build a Korean restaraunt near Ground Zero, because Kimchi smells like shit (if you're not korean) and it's a disrespect to the 9/11 victims. Stop pretending that you don't care that its a mosque and the reason you're offended is because it's disrespectful to victims. Just accept the fact that the reason you don't want it built there is because you're bigots. And ffs, if we BAN the mosque, THAT will be held up as a victory for terrorists. I can read the headlines now...."America Bans Muslim Mosque. Anti-American Sentiment Grows" I am not a bigot. If 60% of Americans are against the mosque, do you think that most Americans are bigots? Use some common sense, building a mosque next to ground zero is offensive. I don't understand how people don't see this. Wasn't that long ago that 60% of Americans were supporting segregating. Wasn't that long ago that 60% of Americans had slaves. For that matter wasn't that long ago that 90% of the world thought earth was flat and the sun revolved around Earth. Facts aren't changed because the majority believes something different. Bigotry is still bigotry even if 99% of the people think it is justified. Infact bigotry is still bigotry even if it actually is justified. Why is opposition to the mosque bigotry? People are opposed to the mosque because of its location. Building it anywhere else is fine. The developers have made it a point to build it as close to ground zero as they can. Jesus man. People aren't opposed to it because of its location. Its just the media stirring people up. There's already a mosque just 4 blocks away from ground zero, and its an ACTUAL mosque not a YMIA. Anyways, how far would be a distance that's "OKAY" with people who oppose this? 5 blocks? 10 blocks? 100 blocks? Where does ground zero stop being ground zero? Did all of Manhattan become ground zero overnight? The problem with your claims of bigotry are as follows: 1) If we believe that statistic that 60% of Americans are against the construction of the mosque, we must also believe that more than 60% believe in the right of the people behind it to construct it (which was a statistic given in the same article as the previous one). Most Americans aren't dumb, and they know what rights other people have. Just because 60% don't like it doesn't mean that they don't think they have the right to build it. 2) If I'm against the construction of all mosques, churches and synagogues, am I a bigot? The definition you gave does not directly relate the opposition to the building of certain structures to the intolerance of the people that will use those structures. It is directly related to the intolerance of the beliefs of those people. Those are two very different things. 3) The people who legitimately think that they have no right to build at that location, on property that they purchased, are flat out wrong and there's no reason to argue with them. Nobody's going to try to take them to court over it and try to find legal ways to stop the construction. It's up to the builders to consider whether or not they want to proceed. They have every right to, they just have to realize that because everybody's so swayed by the media in this country, lots of people are going to get really pissed off. Of course, it shouldn't really matter to them because they're under the assumption that the infidels are wrong about Islam anyway. I would only use the term "bigot" to describe someone who meets all of the following criteria: Vehemently against the rights of certain people to build what they want on their own land. Intolerant of people with opposing beliefs, in that they want nothing to do with them and think the world would be better without them. Lots of people probably walk on the edge of bigotry because they think that the world would be better without certain belief systems while still realizing the importance and necessity of some of the people who hold those beliefs. Those people I would not call bigots, because their problems aren't with people, they are with philosophy.
Yeah, I'm guilty of using opposition to the building of the mosque as a proxy for opposition to Islam. Its a simplification but I think its close enough.
1) Being a bigot doesn't have anything to do with recognizing they have a right to build wherever they want. You can think black people are all lazy, KFC eating slobs but still recognize that they have a right to sit at the front of the bus. The two are not mutually exclusive.
2) It depends on why people oppose the building. I can almost assure you that the majority of the opposition stems from the fact that most Americans don't like Muslims.
3) This gets to the heart of the matter, this would not be an issue if not for the media.
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On August 26 2010 03:56 thesighter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:50 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 03:44 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:31 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:
You need to chill out with this flaming, you clearly don't understand the issue. I am not a bigot and neither are most Americans. I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are wife-beaters or terrorists. However, I am opposed to the mosque because it is too close to ground zero. They can build it anywhere else, just not near there. Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory.
Most New Yorkers and most Americans are against the mosque. Use google to verify, plenty of poll numbers out there. You can't claim to be free of racism or bigotry and then immediately say Muslims shouldn't be allowed to build a place of worship. It's a complete failure of logic to try to do so. By attempting to prevent the [l]ground zero mosque[/l] community center 2 blocks away from ground zero, you are essentially associating Islam with terrorism. You're guilty of associating an entire religion (not to mention one of the largest religions) with the actions of a few people belonging to an extremist sect. The opposition to the mosque is its proximity. The opposition prefers that the developers build the mosque further away from the ground zero memorial. Nearly everybody knows that the developers can build the mosque wherever they like. The attacks were done by extremists in the name of Islam, the families don't want a mosque built near the attack site. I agree that there is a guilt by association factor in this. So how far away is sufficient? Is there any metric that could satisfy the people who are making irrational protests against the construction? Another poster has already mentioned there's an older mosque 4 blocks away from ground zero, is 4 blocks sufficient whereas 2 is not? What's your proposed building location for the community center? Keep in mind real estate in the heart of NY isn't exactly easily available. 4 or more is fine. I am the poster that brought up these numbers, I don't think most of the people in this thread have done their research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park51#Interpretations_of_the_debateOne of the reasons why they purchased that location was because a piece of the 911 wreckage damaged the building. There is significance in its location.
You're stretching, hard I might add, to find any logically consistent reason as to why there can't be a mosque 2 blocks away from ground zero. We're into "Well, part of the WTC hit the old building there so it's also memorial ground" type logic at this point. You readily admit that a community center shouldn't be built there because the ignorant association between Islam and terrorism will be made, yet you insist that this is in no way bigoted.
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Give them the mosque ban the minarets. Everyone is happy.
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On August 26 2010 03:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:52 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:48 JinNJuice wrote:On August 26 2010 03:44 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:31 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:
You need to chill out with this flaming, you clearly don't understand the issue. I am not a bigot and neither are most Americans. I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are wife-beaters or terrorists. However, I am opposed to the mosque because it is too close to ground zero. They can build it anywhere else, just not near there. Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory.
Most New Yorkers and most Americans are against the mosque. Use google to verify, plenty of poll numbers out there. You can't claim to be free of racism or bigotry and then immediately say Muslims shouldn't be allowed to build a place of worship. It's a complete failure of logic to try to do so. By attempting to prevent the [l]ground zero mosque[/l] community center 2 blocks away from ground zero, you are essentially associating Islam with terrorism. You're guilty of associating an entire religion (not to mention one of the largest religions) with the actions of a few people belonging to an extremist sect. The opposition to the mosque is its proximity. The opposition prefers that the developers build the mosque further away from the ground zero memorial. Nearly everybody knows that the developers can build the mosque wherever they like. The attacks were done by extremists in the name of Islam, the families don't want a mosque built near the attack site. I agree that there is a guilt by association factor in this. At this point, words are failing me. I think you, thesighter, highlight everything wrong with this debate. Your inability to see that condemning A WHOLE RELIGION by association immediately makes you either racist, or just a complete idiot is hilarious to me. I am not condemning a whole religion. I just don't want the mosque built next to ground zero in this case. It's offensive to the 9/11 families, is not supported by most americans or new yorkers, and will be viewed as a victory symbol for the Islamic terrorists. Any other mosque, any other situation, any other location, I'm fine with the developers building it. it's only offensive if you're ignorant, that's the driving point here. I don't mean to call you personally ignorant, you obviously have some sort of point but I don't think you're getting it across. Can you give some reason as to why it would be offensive other than 'because the attacks were carried out by Muslims'?
The point is that people don't want Islamic extremists to have any sort of victory dance next to ground zero. Historically, Muslims built mosques as symbols of conquests over new territories. It is quite obvious Al-Qaeda and co will interpret the building as a victory. The opposition is fine with the construction of the mosque at another location. This will serve the intended Muslim population ( at a slight inconvenience), while not giving th extremists the victory they are looking for.
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On August 26 2010 04:05 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:56 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:50 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 03:44 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:31 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:
You need to chill out with this flaming, you clearly don't understand the issue. I am not a bigot and neither are most Americans. I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are wife-beaters or terrorists. However, I am opposed to the mosque because it is too close to ground zero. They can build it anywhere else, just not near there. Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory.
Most New Yorkers and most Americans are against the mosque. Use google to verify, plenty of poll numbers out there. You can't claim to be free of racism or bigotry and then immediately say Muslims shouldn't be allowed to build a place of worship. It's a complete failure of logic to try to do so. By attempting to prevent the [l]ground zero mosque[/l] community center 2 blocks away from ground zero, you are essentially associating Islam with terrorism. You're guilty of associating an entire religion (not to mention one of the largest religions) with the actions of a few people belonging to an extremist sect. The opposition to the mosque is its proximity. The opposition prefers that the developers build the mosque further away from the ground zero memorial. Nearly everybody knows that the developers can build the mosque wherever they like. The attacks were done by extremists in the name of Islam, the families don't want a mosque built near the attack site. I agree that there is a guilt by association factor in this. So how far away is sufficient? Is there any metric that could satisfy the people who are making irrational protests against the construction? Another poster has already mentioned there's an older mosque 4 blocks away from ground zero, is 4 blocks sufficient whereas 2 is not? What's your proposed building location for the community center? Keep in mind real estate in the heart of NY isn't exactly easily available. 4 or more is fine. I am the poster that brought up these numbers, I don't think most of the people in this thread have done their research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park51#Interpretations_of_the_debateOne of the reasons why they purchased that location was because a piece of the 911 wreckage damaged the building. There is significance in its location. You're stretching, hard I might add, to find any logically consistent reason as to why there can't be a mosque 2 blocks away from ground zero. We're into "Well, part of the WTC hit the old building there so it's also memorial ground" type logic at this point. You readily admit that a community center shouldn't be built there because the ignorant association between Islam and terrorism will be made, yet you insist that this is in no way bigoted.
No, see my latest post. Build the mosque at another location. Islamic extremists don't get their victory, Muslim population is still served.
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On August 26 2010 04:06 thesighter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 26 2010 03:52 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:48 JinNJuice wrote:On August 26 2010 03:44 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:31 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:
You need to chill out with this flaming, you clearly don't understand the issue. I am not a bigot and neither are most Americans. I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are wife-beaters or terrorists. However, I am opposed to the mosque because it is too close to ground zero. They can build it anywhere else, just not near there. Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory.
Most New Yorkers and most Americans are against the mosque. Use google to verify, plenty of poll numbers out there. You can't claim to be free of racism or bigotry and then immediately say Muslims shouldn't be allowed to build a place of worship. It's a complete failure of logic to try to do so. By attempting to prevent the [l]ground zero mosque[/l] community center 2 blocks away from ground zero, you are essentially associating Islam with terrorism. You're guilty of associating an entire religion (not to mention one of the largest religions) with the actions of a few people belonging to an extremist sect. The opposition to the mosque is its proximity. The opposition prefers that the developers build the mosque further away from the ground zero memorial. Nearly everybody knows that the developers can build the mosque wherever they like. The attacks were done by extremists in the name of Islam, the families don't want a mosque built near the attack site. I agree that there is a guilt by association factor in this. At this point, words are failing me. I think you, thesighter, highlight everything wrong with this debate. Your inability to see that condemning A WHOLE RELIGION by association immediately makes you either racist, or just a complete idiot is hilarious to me. I am not condemning a whole religion. I just don't want the mosque built next to ground zero in this case. It's offensive to the 9/11 families, is not supported by most americans or new yorkers, and will be viewed as a victory symbol for the Islamic terrorists. Any other mosque, any other situation, any other location, I'm fine with the developers building it. it's only offensive if you're ignorant, that's the driving point here. I don't mean to call you personally ignorant, you obviously have some sort of point but I don't think you're getting it across. Can you give some reason as to why it would be offensive other than 'because the attacks were carried out by Muslims'? The point is that people don't want Islamic extremists to have any sort of victory dance next to ground zero. Historically, Muslims built mosques as symbols of conquests over new territories. It is quite obvious Al-Qaeda and co will interpret the building as a victory. The opposition is fine with the construction of the mosque at another location. This will serve the intended Muslim population ( at a slight inconvenience), while not giving th extremists the victory they are looking for.
What the heck does it matter if they view it as a victory? They can think whatever they want so long as we adhere to our core values we built this country on. They can think it a victory we dont torture them. Or that we try them in a court of law. Or dont hunt down muslims in the street and murder them. Or any of a thousand other ways that we are better than them.
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On August 26 2010 04:06 thesighter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 26 2010 03:52 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:48 JinNJuice wrote:On August 26 2010 03:44 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 03:31 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 03:25 thesighter wrote:
You need to chill out with this flaming, you clearly don't understand the issue. I am not a bigot and neither are most Americans. I don't believe that the majority of Muslims are wife-beaters or terrorists. However, I am opposed to the mosque because it is too close to ground zero. They can build it anywhere else, just not near there. Building a mosque near ground zero will be viewed by terrorists as a victory.
Most New Yorkers and most Americans are against the mosque. Use google to verify, plenty of poll numbers out there. You can't claim to be free of racism or bigotry and then immediately say Muslims shouldn't be allowed to build a place of worship. It's a complete failure of logic to try to do so. By attempting to prevent the [l]ground zero mosque[/l] community center 2 blocks away from ground zero, you are essentially associating Islam with terrorism. You're guilty of associating an entire religion (not to mention one of the largest religions) with the actions of a few people belonging to an extremist sect. The opposition to the mosque is its proximity. The opposition prefers that the developers build the mosque further away from the ground zero memorial. Nearly everybody knows that the developers can build the mosque wherever they like. The attacks were done by extremists in the name of Islam, the families don't want a mosque built near the attack site. I agree that there is a guilt by association factor in this. At this point, words are failing me. I think you, thesighter, highlight everything wrong with this debate. Your inability to see that condemning A WHOLE RELIGION by association immediately makes you either racist, or just a complete idiot is hilarious to me. I am not condemning a whole religion. I just don't want the mosque built next to ground zero in this case. It's offensive to the 9/11 families, is not supported by most americans or new yorkers, and will be viewed as a victory symbol for the Islamic terrorists. Any other mosque, any other situation, any other location, I'm fine with the developers building it. it's only offensive if you're ignorant, that's the driving point here. I don't mean to call you personally ignorant, you obviously have some sort of point but I don't think you're getting it across. Can you give some reason as to why it would be offensive other than 'because the attacks were carried out by Muslims'? The point is that people don't want Islamic extremists to have any sort of victory dance next to ground zero. Historically, Muslims built mosques as symbols of conquests over new territories. It is quite obvious Al-Qaeda and co will interpret the building as a victory. The opposition is fine with the construction of the mosque at another location. This will serve the intended Muslim population ( at a slight inconvenience), while not giving th extremists the victory they are looking for.
Ok, honestly. People are not going to look at that COMMUNITY CENTER and say..."Well shit, those terrorists sure showed America, look at that fucking mosque man." They're going to say, "Man America can show that even if they got attacked by a radical group of extremists, they can still show that they are accepting and understanding of other people's races and religions. Those terrorists were wrong, America is not the evil one, the terrorists are."
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Doesn´t matter which religions temple it is, it´s always "peace and love ya´ll"
If nothing is built there is it a win to atheist extremists...
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EPT
