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On April 14 2012 13:29 Gummy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 13:25 Demonhunter04 wrote:On April 14 2012 12:58 FliedLice wrote:On August 12 2010 02:25 Laerties wrote:
This is not from the prestige.
This is most definitely from the prestige. Well Prestige used a similar concept, but didn't invent it. Also the original wasn't killed in the machine from prestige, it was a more of a pure cloning device, killing the original was a mechanism added by the magician afterwards by adding the trap door. The original died in the Prestige? I thought it was the original killing off his clones repeatedly. It's been a while since I saw it. No the original died each time. That was so terrible about it! Hugh Jackman had to die each time he did the trick. So much suffering for his art.
I don't think this was exactly the case. The point is that you could not distinguish between the original and the clone. You might be able to say that the new one appears at the same place each time, and so distinguish, but they don't really go into all that detail in the movie. The new copy has all the memories of the original and could make the case that he was the original and had been teleported while a clone had been left in his place. If I remember correctly, the movie poses this question by suggesting that you could not know if you would be the prestige or the man in the box.
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On April 14 2012 13:46 phyren wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 13:29 Gummy wrote:On April 14 2012 13:25 Demonhunter04 wrote:On April 14 2012 12:58 FliedLice wrote:On August 12 2010 02:25 Laerties wrote:
This is not from the prestige.
This is most definitely from the prestige. Well Prestige used a similar concept, but didn't invent it. Also the original wasn't killed in the machine from prestige, it was a more of a pure cloning device, killing the original was a mechanism added by the magician afterwards by adding the trap door. The original died in the Prestige? I thought it was the original killing off his clones repeatedly. It's been a while since I saw it. No the original died each time. That was so terrible about it! Hugh Jackman had to die each time he did the trick. So much suffering for his art. I don't think this was exactly the case. The point is that you could not distinguish between the original and the clone. You might be able to say that the new one appears at the same place each time, and so distinguish, but they don't really go into all that detail in the movie. The new copy has all the memories of the original and could make the case that he was the original and had been teleported while a clone had been left in his place. If I remember correctly, the movie poses this question by suggesting that you could not know if you would be the prestige or the man in the box.
It's ambiguous as I recall, yeah. I like to think that the original magician dies and the clone is the survivor, but the magician doesn't know that because he was the clone last time, with all the memories -- including the start of the trick -- as if they were his own. He thought he survived, but really he was only just born, so he's willing to do it again; and realizes his mistake as he falls into the tank and stares at his new self as he dies.
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This is exactly the theme of Gantz, a manga where a black ball stores people but the trick is it makes a copy of a person at a certain point, if that copy dies and another one is made the memories will be the ones at the moment the copy was first made because the chemicals in the brain and what not are a exact replicate or something like that. Gantz is amazing, even if you're not into manga, actually it's the first one I've read, but since I love all sci-fi it's all good. Give it a try, there is a TL thread about it somewhere that's where I found it.
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On April 14 2012 14:01 UmiNotsuki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 13:46 phyren wrote:On April 14 2012 13:29 Gummy wrote:On April 14 2012 13:25 Demonhunter04 wrote:On April 14 2012 12:58 FliedLice wrote:On August 12 2010 02:25 Laerties wrote:
This is not from the prestige.
This is most definitely from the prestige. Well Prestige used a similar concept, but didn't invent it. Also the original wasn't killed in the machine from prestige, it was a more of a pure cloning device, killing the original was a mechanism added by the magician afterwards by adding the trap door. The original died in the Prestige? I thought it was the original killing off his clones repeatedly. It's been a while since I saw it. No the original died each time. That was so terrible about it! Hugh Jackman had to die each time he did the trick. So much suffering for his art. I don't think this was exactly the case. The point is that you could not distinguish between the original and the clone. You might be able to say that the new one appears at the same place each time, and so distinguish, but they don't really go into all that detail in the movie. The new copy has all the memories of the original and could make the case that he was the original and had been teleported while a clone had been left in his place. If I remember correctly, the movie poses this question by suggesting that you could not know if you would be the prestige or the man in the box. It's ambiguous as I recall, yeah. I like to think that the original magician dies and the clone is the survivor, but the magician doesn't know that because he was the clone last time, with all the memories -- including the start of the trick -- as if they were his own. He thought he survived, but really he was only just born, so he's willing to do it again; and realizes his mistake as he falls into the tank and stares at his new self as he dies.
If he was smart he would have just made one clone and cooperated with himself to pull off the trick without killing any clones, but that wouldn't have been quite as entertaining haha.
I can imagine if I could clone myself I would do it in a second, two or more me's could accomplish so much...
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Nice blog, and an interesting question. I would use it. If it makes an exact copy of my mind and body, who's to say it's still not "me"?
I think the question goes down to this: do you believe in a soul? If you do, you probably will think your soul might depart after killing your own body. It would be another being. Perhaps not.
If not, being that it's a being just like you and since there will be just 1 of you in the whole universe, what's to say that he's not "you"? Excet from being consiously unaware that you just "died", you will still be there. As someone mentioned, what makes you "you" and what defines your reality, in the end, is nothing more that the perception of yur mind and your short-term memory. If both are kept just as before, you'll just remember momentarily ceasing to exist and appearing somewhere else.
What if he didn't "kill" you? What if he deassembled and reassembled you in a different place? Would it be any different? I mean, considering the machin copies and reassembles every single atom just as before, there wouldn't be any difference in the end result.
A more interesting question might actually be: how would your conscience be affected in the short lapse you're dead? Would you feel the time lapse in real life? Would you be aware you're dead? Woluld you be aware of anything at all?
There's a short story by Stephen King that actually explores this question: "The Jaunt". Highly recommended.
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On April 14 2012 13:29 Gummy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 13:25 Demonhunter04 wrote:On April 14 2012 12:58 FliedLice wrote:On August 12 2010 02:25 Laerties wrote:
This is not from the prestige.
This is most definitely from the prestige. Well Prestige used a similar concept, but didn't invent it. Also the original wasn't killed in the machine from prestige, it was a more of a pure cloning device, killing the original was a mechanism added by the magician afterwards by adding the trap door. The original died in the Prestige? I thought it was the original killing off his clones repeatedly. It's been a while since I saw it. No the original died each time. That was so terrible about it! Hugh Jackman had to die each time he did the trick. So much suffering for his art.
the original falls into the watertank under the machine "entrance" through a trapdoor, while a duplicate aappears at the "exit"
i think that's how it worked
anyway, the point i was trying to make is that the machine in the movie didn't necessarily kill anything, he just had to get rid of one version of himself to make the trick work so he added the trapdoor+water tank himself
remember the scene at tesla's lab where had shitloads of tophats because he replicated them while testing his machine
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Curiously I've been pondering a similar question over the past couple of days, specifically in concern to 'cloning'.
I can't decide whether I would.
On the one hand, I believe that I'm a different being from one moment the next, regardless of whether there is an implicit 'death'. Consequently this should solve any concerns I should have about 'dying', as it in fact isn't a death (really).
But then I can't adhere to that previous notion if I'm asked whether I would be willing to die, for another to live in my stead (for the sake of teleportation [or immortality]), because if 'I' die, I'm not there to witness 'myself' living, as it were.
Questions about being (me).
I somehow need to conclude that I don't exist as an individual at all. Not only not as an individual, but simply do not exist.
But, then I can't answer other questions.
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On April 14 2012 13:46 phyren wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 13:29 Gummy wrote:On April 14 2012 13:25 Demonhunter04 wrote:On April 14 2012 12:58 FliedLice wrote:On August 12 2010 02:25 Laerties wrote:
This is not from the prestige.
This is most definitely from the prestige. Well Prestige used a similar concept, but didn't invent it. Also the original wasn't killed in the machine from prestige, it was a more of a pure cloning device, killing the original was a mechanism added by the magician afterwards by adding the trap door. The original died in the Prestige? I thought it was the original killing off his clones repeatedly. It's been a while since I saw it. No the original died each time. That was so terrible about it! Hugh Jackman had to die each time he did the trick. So much suffering for his art. I don't think this was exactly the case. The point is that you could not distinguish between the original and the clone. You might be able to say that the new one appears at the same place each time, and so distinguish, but they don't really go into all that detail in the movie. The new copy has all the memories of the original and could make the case that he was the original and had been teleported while a clone had been left in his place. If I remember correctly, the movie poses this question by suggesting that you could not know if you would be the prestige or the man in the box.
With the prestige the problem really comes from the audience.
The idea of a perfect clone, one that truly cannot be distinguish itself, or be distinguished from the original. People have trouble with the idea that you could be a clone with perfect memory, but not somehow have an evil mustache twirling "har-har, shoot him, not me!"-persona on the inside.
The problem comes from the idea that the original and clone can't tell. They both think they always existed. People seem to find this concept hard to grasp, believing that on some level, they should know.
The question of course, does the machine teleport the original and create a clone, or does it simply create a clone some distance away.
The truth of this question is one that cannot be answered, and this is intentional to the story.
Even if it teleports, the original can't be sure that he isn't a clone with perfect memory.
Having said that, the prestige suffers from a single mistake, which is a shame because it is one of my favorite films.
The real version doesn't exist in the movie.
The machine does one of two things:
A. It creates a clone and teleports the original to another location.
B. It creates a clone at a different location.
If B is true, then the original has died when he first performed the trick, with each clone dying on each night.
If A is true, then the real version was teleported away, only to be shot by the clone when he was testing the machine, after which the clone proceeded to perform the trick every night, killing off future versions with the water tank.
But in the end, it isn't very important. The core of the story is obsession and rivalry, not a question on how important it is to be an "original" compared to a perfect imitation.
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This form of teleportation is utterly retarded. YOU'RE DEAD PEOPLE. You know, if the machine is going to rebuild your body atom by atom in another location, is the whole, killing the original really that important. Might as well just make a clone to do what's needed to be done. Better yet, might as well just do what you want to do electronically and send it. It's not like the information carrying your body plan travels any faster than an email. If your doing this for a fast way to get to something pleasurable, like going on vacation, don't. Your dead. Someone else is enjoying your life.
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On April 14 2012 16:28 Brutaxilos wrote:
This form of teleportation is utterly retarded. YOU'RE DEAD PEOPLE. You know, if the machine is going to rebuild your body atom by atom in another location, is the whole, killing the original really that important. Might as well just make a clone to do what's needed to be done. Better yet, might as well just do what you want to do electronically and send it. It's not like the information carrying your body plan travels any faster than an email. If your doing this for a fast way to get to something pleasurable, like going on vacation, don't. Your dead. Someone else is enjoying your life.
But why are you necessarily dead? You're still alive, in a sense. Objectively nobody would know the difference. Subjectively, well I'm not sure. But how can you be so sure that you are in effect dead if there is another you in existence?
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It's an interesting conundrum. Eg the teleporters in Star Trek - the body is being annihilated in one location and rebuilt in another. The body is not being 'moved'; one body is destroyed, and an exact copy re-created elsewhere. Does this mean "you" essentially die using the teleporter?
The question boils down to:
Do you believe "you" (i.e. your conscious, thinking mind) are something that inhabits your brain, or are "you" simply the physical brain itself.
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It's a bad argument. The author bases his conception on the idea that if you clone someone, killing the clone is okay, but killing a clone is no more acceptable than killing a twin sibling.
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I definately wouldn't use it, i mean, why would i want to be replaced by a clone of myself ? If this machine can really recreate a body, do so when i'm about to die ( with the informations of a younger me ) and recreate a younger me when i die, but then again, when i'm dead i don't really care anymore so i'd probably find it pointless at that point.
In short : no
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On April 14 2012 16:53 Hairy wrote:
It's an interesting conundrum. Eg the teleporters in Star Trek - the body is being annihilated in one location and rebuilt in another. The body is not being 'moved'; one body is destroyed, and an exact copy re-created elsewhere. Does this mean "you" essentially die using the teleporter?
The question boils down to:
Do you believe "you" (i.e. your conscious, thinking mind) are something that inhabits your brain, or are "you" simply the physical brain itself.
Star Trek actually adresses this in an episode, saying that this was a very prevalent fear during the early days of the teleporter, but in the end, those fears just came from people that didn't understand the science.
So no, in Star Trek the person being beamed up continues to exist. Though you could argue that perhaps nobody truly knows and they are all perfect clones thinking that they are real.
Which would make the Star Trek series far more hilarious to watch.
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On April 14 2012 16:53 Hairy wrote:
It's an interesting conundrum. Eg the teleporters in Star Trek - the body is being annihilated in one location and rebuilt in another. The body is not being 'moved'; one body is destroyed, and an exact copy re-created elsewhere. Does this mean "you" essentially die using the teleporter?
The question boils down to:
Do you believe "you" (i.e. your conscious, thinking mind) are something that inhabits your brain, or are "you" simply the physical brain itself.
Without questioning wether the you inhabits the mind (e.g. as a soul) I'd still argue that a re-creating is a separate creation so it is another object, be it inhabited with an identical 'you(ness)', so not infact 'you'.
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On April 14 2012 16:53 Hairy wrote:
It's an interesting conundrum. Eg the teleporters in Star Trek - the body is being annihilated in one location and rebuilt in another. The body is not being 'moved'; one body is destroyed, and an exact copy re-created elsewhere. Does this mean "you" essentially die using the teleporter?
The question boils down to:
Do you believe "you" (i.e. your conscious, thinking mind) are something that inhabits your brain, or are "you" simply the physical brain itself.
You're both; two halves to one whole. The "true" you is your mind, however your body hosts that mind. If your body is destroyed, then that mind is destroyed, and thus you are. It doesn't matter if the machine copies your mind and places it in a new body somewhere else, because your old body, and in extension your old/current mind, has already been destroyed.
Easiest way to realize this is to assume the following: your old body is not destroyed.
Nothing else changes, the machine still copies your mind into a new body and a new "you" is created. As a result, you'll each probably think you're the "real" you. However, the one that was copied is not you, they are a clone. You won't be simultaneously living your life through both bodies, so whoever is in the newly created body, is not "you".
Though only "you" would realize this. As for all intensive purposes, either version of you would be considered the real you by anyone else but you.
There was an interesting movie that played with the concept of cloning, and showed this quite well. In the movie they thought they achieved immortality, by cloning themselves and copying their mind into the new clones. Sadly I forget the name of it.
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Read this and had to go watch the prestige...
+ Show Spoiler +Have to convince / promise myself if I ever get cloned we will work together. The second you decide you'd shoot your clone your clone will shoot you when he gets the chance!
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On April 14 2012 17:28 Nibbler89 wrote:Read this and had to go watch the prestige... + Show Spoiler +Have to convince / promise myself if I ever get cloned we will work together. The second you decide you'd shoot your clone your clone will shoot you when he gets the chance!
Better not have any doubts or your clone will kill you and you have to live with that experience, minus the pain.
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On April 14 2012 16:36 Chooser wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 16:28 Brutaxilos wrote:
This form of teleportation is utterly retarded. YOU'RE DEAD PEOPLE. You know, if the machine is going to rebuild your body atom by atom in another location, is the whole, killing the original really that important. Might as well just make a clone to do what's needed to be done. Better yet, might as well just do what you want to do electronically and send it. It's not like the information carrying your body plan travels any faster than an email. If your doing this for a fast way to get to something pleasurable, like going on vacation, don't. Your dead. Someone else is enjoying your life. But why are you necessarily dead? You're still alive, in a sense. Objectively nobody would know the difference. Subjectively, well I'm not sure. But how can you be so sure that you are in effect dead if there is another you in existence?
You would know the difference, since you're dead. Your life is at an end. From a neurological viewpoint, it would certainly be the same as having a normal death, since all your brain function seizes. Whatever is created on the other side isn't you, it's someone else. It could, in the very same way, create a completely different person on the other side of the teleportation device. It would make absolutely no difference for you.
Imo this is one of thousands of useless purely philosophical questions (pure philosophy rarely does something else than raise pointless questions), since they're easily answered using real facts (anybody who would use this device knowingly what it does would be a fool, or suicidal).
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Teleport me, but keep the original. Then we meet up and have shitloads of fun and fuck with people's minds. I know myself well enough that I'd know we'd be the ultimate trolls.
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EPT
