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On August 08 2010 06:41 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 06:40 Guss wrote:On August 08 2010 06:30 Myles wrote:On August 08 2010 06:23 Zeromaxx wrote:
If you are saying every molecule, every atom, every base particle is exactly the same and your entire consciousness is downloaded exactly then you can't really call it much of a copy either. If it took your place the universe would continue on and you it would live your life exactly as you have and will. Heck if you can do this whats to keep you from shaving off a few pounds or adding muscle mass, removing cancer or disease. What if the "copy" could come out a BETTER you? Then what?
We are all just a bunch of particles and having my consciousness in this body or that one over there isn't going to make much of a difference. I will still have my wife and kids and be reading the same stuff on TL. I am not dead my container just changed.
If you are copied and both you and the copy exist leading seperate lives then you are not exactly the same. You began having different experiences the exact moment you existed together. The point is that you, the human being experiencing whats happening around you, would no longer exist. You would no longer experience your thoughts, someone else would. You would close your eyes and never experience anything ever again. Someone else would open their eyes and take your place. In the end, nothing has changed and the copy feels no different from the original, but it is not the same person experiencing things in both cases. what is "you"? You is the person experiencing your thoughts right now. A clone is not you, a clone is someone else is who exactly like you. You do not experience a clones thoughts as a clones brain is not connected to your body. Show nested quote +Their isn't a cell in my body which has existed since I was born. Am I not the same conscious entity I was born as? That's a horrible comparison as its still the same brain connected to your body. How do I experience the thoughts of a brain in a different body that I'm not connected to at all? Oh, and there's a reason time travel is a paradox, so I don't buy your previous example at all/
"The person experiencing your thoughts" that is still valid if you were to teleport yourself. Or you would have to explain what "person" is
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Personally, I wouldn't do it. My reasoning being (I hope I understand the OP correctly):
Even if the clone has the same everything as the original, from memories to appearance, It won't really be "me" in the sense that This "soul" of me is no longer in control.
This is what I mean by soul:
Lets say you have a robot. Lets say this robot has X functions and Y information inside of it. Now lets say there are Pilots A and B. Both pilots want to use the functions and information of said robot for the same purpose, but only Pilot A gets assigned to the robot. Now lets say some time after pilot A uses the robot, pilot A gets killed in some sort of accident and pilot B gets assigned the robot. Though the same functions and information are being used in the exact same way, its not the same person controlling it.
(I dunno if i explained it correctly, but that was the best example that came to mind =\)
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On August 08 2010 06:41 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 06:40 Guss wrote:On August 08 2010 06:30 Myles wrote:On August 08 2010 06:23 Zeromaxx wrote:
If you are saying every molecule, every atom, every base particle is exactly the same and your entire consciousness is downloaded exactly then you can't really call it much of a copy either. If it took your place the universe would continue on and you it would live your life exactly as you have and will. Heck if you can do this whats to keep you from shaving off a few pounds or adding muscle mass, removing cancer or disease. What if the "copy" could come out a BETTER you? Then what?
We are all just a bunch of particles and having my consciousness in this body or that one over there isn't going to make much of a difference. I will still have my wife and kids and be reading the same stuff on TL. I am not dead my container just changed.
If you are copied and both you and the copy exist leading seperate lives then you are not exactly the same. You began having different experiences the exact moment you existed together. The point is that you, the human being experiencing whats happening around you, would no longer exist. You would no longer experience your thoughts, someone else would. You would close your eyes and never experience anything ever again. Someone else would open their eyes and take your place. In the end, nothing has changed and the copy feels no different from the original, but it is not the same person experiencing things in both cases. what is "you"? You is the person experiencing your thoughts right now. A clone is not you, a clone is someone else is who exactly like you. You do not experience a clones thoughts as a clones brain is not connected to your body.
Consciousness is a local phenomenon. If you cloned me down to the last bits of data, two of "me" exist. Consciousness is a bunch of bio-electric signals produced by the brain at any given time. As this happens thousands of times every second, the illusion of a contiguous experience is created. If you duplicate these signals, you duplicate the consciousness. The fact that their is a physical gap between these objects is irrelevant, because their are gaps between your consciousness ALL THE TIME, because your brain can only process information so fast.
This is what I mean by soul:
Lets say you have a robot. Lets say this robot has X functions and Y information inside of it. Now lets say there are Pilots A and B. Both pilots want to use the traits and information of said robot for the same purpose, but only Pilot A gets assigned to the robot. Now lets say some time after pilot A uses the robot, pilot A gets killed in some sort of accident and pilot B gets assigned the robot. Though the same functions and information are being used in the exact same function, its not the same person controlling it.
That doesn't explain what you mean by soul, that just explains why you wouldn't do assuming souls existed.
What do you mean by soul? An intangible, invisible force that supersedes your body and brain entirely unbound by the laws of physics?
That's a horrible comparison as its still the same brain connected to your body. How do I experience the thoughts of a brain in a different body that I'm not connected to at all? Oh, and there's a reason time travel is a paradox, so I don't buy your previous example at all
Oh, and there's a reason time travel is a paradox, so I don't buy your previous example at all/
I'm time traveling using the same preconditions as the OP. FTL information transfer IS time travel. You arrive before you left, its just irrelevant if your going somewhere really far.
Moreover time travel isn't a paradox. It causes paradoxes, but demonstrably plausible within the current laws of physic under many models. The only problem is that it requires infinite energy.
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United States5162 Posts
On August 08 2010 06:45 Guss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 06:41 Myles wrote:On August 08 2010 06:40 Guss wrote:On August 08 2010 06:30 Myles wrote:On August 08 2010 06:23 Zeromaxx wrote:
If you are saying every molecule, every atom, every base particle is exactly the same and your entire consciousness is downloaded exactly then you can't really call it much of a copy either. If it took your place the universe would continue on and you it would live your life exactly as you have and will. Heck if you can do this whats to keep you from shaving off a few pounds or adding muscle mass, removing cancer or disease. What if the "copy" could come out a BETTER you? Then what?
We are all just a bunch of particles and having my consciousness in this body or that one over there isn't going to make much of a difference. I will still have my wife and kids and be reading the same stuff on TL. I am not dead my container just changed.
If you are copied and both you and the copy exist leading seperate lives then you are not exactly the same. You began having different experiences the exact moment you existed together. The point is that you, the human being experiencing whats happening around you, would no longer exist. You would no longer experience your thoughts, someone else would. You would close your eyes and never experience anything ever again. Someone else would open their eyes and take your place. In the end, nothing has changed and the copy feels no different from the original, but it is not the same person experiencing things in both cases. what is "you"? You is the person experiencing your thoughts right now. A clone is not you, a clone is someone else is who exactly like you. You do not experience a clones thoughts as a clones brain is not connected to your body. Their isn't a cell in my body which has existed since I was born. Am I not the same conscious entity I was born as? That's a horrible comparison as its still the same brain connected to your body. How do I experience the thoughts of a brain in a different body that I'm not connected to at all? Oh, and there's a reason time travel is a paradox, so I don't buy your previous example at all/ "The person experiencing your thoughts" that is still valid if you were to teleport yourself. Or you would have to explain what "person" is
Huh? It's destroys your body and creates a new one at the location you want to go and copies your mind into that body. Since my brain is destroyed, I can no longer thing/feel/ect. A different brain and body are, it doesn't matter if they think the same way I do and am me in every way, its not my body and brain and I don't experience it.
I'm not arguing from the clones perspective that anything has changed, they feel completely normal. I'm saying from the person who is cloned that they close their eyes and never experience anything again because if their brain and body are gone then how do expedience something? Just because an identical set is created somewhere else doesn't magically transfer my thoughts from this brain to that one, its two separate sets of thoughts.
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To be blunt, there is no such thing as the soul.
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On August 08 2010 06:50 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 06:45 Guss wrote:On August 08 2010 06:41 Myles wrote:On August 08 2010 06:40 Guss wrote:On August 08 2010 06:30 Myles wrote:On August 08 2010 06:23 Zeromaxx wrote:
If you are saying every molecule, every atom, every base particle is exactly the same and your entire consciousness is downloaded exactly then you can't really call it much of a copy either. If it took your place the universe would continue on and you it would live your life exactly as you have and will. Heck if you can do this whats to keep you from shaving off a few pounds or adding muscle mass, removing cancer or disease. What if the "copy" could come out a BETTER you? Then what?
We are all just a bunch of particles and having my consciousness in this body or that one over there isn't going to make much of a difference. I will still have my wife and kids and be reading the same stuff on TL. I am not dead my container just changed.
If you are copied and both you and the copy exist leading seperate lives then you are not exactly the same. You began having different experiences the exact moment you existed together. The point is that you, the human being experiencing whats happening around you, would no longer exist. You would no longer experience your thoughts, someone else would. You would close your eyes and never experience anything ever again. Someone else would open their eyes and take your place. In the end, nothing has changed and the copy feels no different from the original, but it is not the same person experiencing things in both cases. what is "you"? You is the person experiencing your thoughts right now. A clone is not you, a clone is someone else is who exactly like you. You do not experience a clones thoughts as a clones brain is not connected to your body. Their isn't a cell in my body which has existed since I was born. Am I not the same conscious entity I was born as? That's a horrible comparison as its still the same brain connected to your body. How do I experience the thoughts of a brain in a different body that I'm not connected to at all? Oh, and there's a reason time travel is a paradox, so I don't buy your previous example at all/ "The person experiencing your thoughts" that is still valid if you were to teleport yourself. Or you would have to explain what "person" is Huh? It's destroys your body and creates a new one at the location you want to go and copies your mind into that body. Since my brain is destroyed, I can no longer thing/feel/ect. A different brain and body are, it doesn't matter if they think the same way I do and am me in every way, its not my body and brain and I don't experience it. I'm not arguing from the clones perspective that anything has changed, they feel completely normal. I'm saying from the person who is cloned that they close their eyes and never experience anything again because if their brain and body are gone then how do expedience something? Just because an identical set is created somewhere else doesn't magically transfer my thoughts from this brain to that one, its two separate sets of thoughts.
Your brain has not been destroyed, it has simply been moved. If be destroyed you mean that its not the same atoms, atoms change every nano second in your brain. Is it not still the same brain?
When you say "I" cannot feel things. The "I" is simply your memory and experiences. Which comes along to your next location.
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Huh? It's destroys your body and creates a new one at the location you want to go and copies your mind into that body. Since my brain is destroyed, I can no longer thing/feel/ect. A different brain and body are, it doesn't matter if they think the same way I do and am me in every way, its not my body and brain and I don't experience it.
What you're arguing here is that consciousness supersedes your brain. In other words, it represents a phenomenon that cannot be contained within the context of your brain.
I think you mean "soul".
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United States5162 Posts
On August 08 2010 06:56 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
Huh? It's destroys your body and creates a new one at the location you want to go and copies your mind into that body. Since my brain is destroyed, I can no longer thing/feel/ect. A different brain and body are, it doesn't matter if they think the same way I do and am me in every way, its not my body and brain and I don't experience it.
What you're arguing here is that consciousness supersedes your brain. In other words, it represents a phenomenon that cannot be contained within the context of your brain. I think you mean "soul".
No, I'm arguing the exact opposite. Without a brain there is no consciousness. If you destroy a brain, you destroy the thoughts inside it. Creating a new one with the same thoughts somewhere else doesn't make the first one experience those thoughts.
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On August 08 2010 06:58 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 06:56 Half wrote:
Huh? It's destroys your body and creates a new one at the location you want to go and copies your mind into that body. Since my brain is destroyed, I can no longer thing/feel/ect. A different brain and body are, it doesn't matter if they think the same way I do and am me in every way, its not my body and brain and I don't experience it.
What you're arguing here is that consciousness supersedes your brain. In other words, it represents a phenomenon that cannot be contained within the context of your brain. I think you mean "soul". No, I'm arguing the exact opposite. Without a brain there is no consciousness. If you destroy a brain, you destroy the thoughts inside it. Creating a new one with the same thoughts somewhere else doesn't make the first one experience those thoughts.
Again your thoughts arent destroyed. They are simply moved. Thinking nothing for a certain amount of time does not kill "you".
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On August 08 2010 06:58 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 06:56 Half wrote:
Huh? It's destroys your body and creates a new one at the location you want to go and copies your mind into that body. Since my brain is destroyed, I can no longer thing/feel/ect. A different brain and body are, it doesn't matter if they think the same way I do and am me in every way, its not my body and brain and I don't experience it.
What you're arguing here is that consciousness supersedes your brain. In other words, it represents a phenomenon that cannot be contained within the context of your brain. I think you mean "soul". No, I'm arguing the exact opposite. Without a brain there is no consciousness. If you destroy a brain, you destroy the thoughts inside it.
Right...except in this case I'm not destroying the thoughts inside of it. These thoughts are being preserved identically, then they continue as they left off. .
Creating a new one with the same thoughts somewhere else doesn't make the first one experience those thoughts.
Experience doesn't precede the brain, the Brain precedes experience. The entire terminology your using is wrong. Their is no "first" consciousness. Consciousness is the makeup of the current processes of any given brain that is capable of initiating developed self-feedback loops (human consciousness). Since these happen incredibly fast, an illusion of contiguity is made.
As long as these processes occur, then you still exist. "You" exist as a local phenomenon at any given point in time, the current action of this process.
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United States5162 Posts
On August 08 2010 07:01 Guss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 06:58 Myles wrote:On August 08 2010 06:56 Half wrote:
Huh? It's destroys your body and creates a new one at the location you want to go and copies your mind into that body. Since my brain is destroyed, I can no longer thing/feel/ect. A different brain and body are, it doesn't matter if they think the same way I do and am me in every way, its not my body and brain and I don't experience it.
What you're arguing here is that consciousness supersedes your brain. In other words, it represents a phenomenon that cannot be contained within the context of your brain. I think you mean "soul". No, I'm arguing the exact opposite. Without a brain there is no consciousness. If you destroy a brain, you destroy the thoughts inside it. Creating a new one with the same thoughts somewhere else doesn't make the first one experience those thoughts. So loosing consciousness kills you? If you have no memory of a certain time you were dead when it happened
What does that have to to do with destroying my brain thus destroying my thoughts? Not having a memory doesn't make you dead.
Like I said before, from the perspective of the person created nothing has changed. But from the perspective of the brain that's been destroyed, thought can no longer happen.
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Well once you make the decision and do it, think of the possibilities. You won't hesitate to do it again.
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What does that have to to do with destroying my brain thus destroying my thoughts? Not having a memory doesn't make you dead.
Destroying your thoughts kill you, but in this case your thoughts are NOT DESTROYED.
But from the perspective of the brain that's been destroyed, thought can no longer happen.
You need to abandon this sentimental and unrealistic perception of consciousness if you're going to make sense of this. A brain that no longer exists can not no longer experience perspective. Their is no "perspective of a brain thats been destroyed" because brains precede perception. And in this case, their is a brain to perceive, but no brain not to perceive.
I need to reiterate this. Their is no you that exists outside of your consciousness. You, is your consciousness, and your consciousness is the product of a brain configured in a specific way. If you have that brain configured, down to a certain level, the same, then you have your consciousness, and you have "you".
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On August 08 2010 02:27 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 02:26 Badjas wrote:On August 08 2010 02:02 heishe wrote:
I'd never do it. At least if we're talking about a realistic teleporter here. A teleporter in our world could never "teleport" our atoms and molecules from one part of the universe to the other, it would work more like a copy machine that kills the template. and that would suck obv.
(theres no use for me if I'm dead after all. doesn't make it better that an exact copy of me is walking around)
people expect to walk into a teleporter and then "wake up" or somethign on the other side. you wouldn't, unless they find a way to teleport by bending spacetime, which is unlikely. you'd walk into the teleporter and die. your consiousness would be gone. on the other side, someone else would "wake up" and think he'd be you, but you'd be gone. The other person would wake up and think he'd be you. Now argue how he would _not_ be you? (and really, that strand of hair that stands on my head, does not define me, and neither do the individual atoms in the rest of my body.) Rather simple, actually. If one defines life as a continuity, then that break would essentially mean that the other person is living a different life.
Reasoning about life as a continuity is different from reasoning about which defines a person to be 'the same'. Continuity in this case depends on how the theoretical teleporting device operates. Another thought experiment is that of being cryogenically frozen and revived later on. Being frozen, you are dead by most common definitions, and life continuity does end. But if you get revived, life picks up again. And in this case there is much less debate whether the person would still be that same person.
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On August 08 2010 07:13 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
What does that have to to do with destroying my brain thus destroying my thoughts? Not having a memory doesn't make you dead.
Destroying your thoughts kill you, but in this case your thoughts are NOT DESTROYED. Show nested quote +But from the perspective of the brain that's been destroyed, thought can no longer happen. You need to abandon this sentimental and unrealistic perception of consciousness if you're going to make sense of this. A brain that no longer exists can not no longer experience perspective. Their is no "perspective of a brain thats been destroyed" because brains precede perception. And in this case, their is a brain to perceive, but no brain not to perceive. I need to reiterate this. Their is no you that exists outside of your consciousness. You, is your consciousness, and your consciousness is the product of a brain configured in a specific way. If you have that brain configured, down to a certain level, the same, then you have your consciousness, and you have "you".
thank you sir
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I imagined similar debates arose in academic institutions when the Electronic Defibrillator was invented.
Maybe you'd come back with the spirit of Keanu Reaves in you, having seen the horrors of hell :O.
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To the people who would do this...
Would you still do it if, instead of simply ceasing to exist, your original body is instead put into a deep drug-induced sleep and then stabbed in the face repeatedly?
I don't know man... I might have to side with Arnold on this one.
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United States5162 Posts
Because I hate people who just stop posting mid-argument, I'll just say we should probably end this here. We're all just reiterating things we've already said. I do agree to an extent, but at this point its better if I leave it at I'll see ya later.
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The question to be asked here is: how is this different from falling into a coma and gaining consciousness? Most people would want (and see no problem) in continuing on their lives after recovering from a coma.
In both cases, there is a distinct break in consciousness and you are, more or less, the same person afterwards. (Actually, even more so in the teleportation sitaution).
The only distinction is that there's no break in the continuity of the existence of material matter in the coma situation. But is that important at all?
Difficult question indeed
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On August 08 2010 07:44 KhaosKreator wrote:
To the people who would do this...
Would you still do it if, instead of simply ceasing to exist, your original body is instead put into a deep drug-induced sleep and then stabbed in the face repeatedly?
I don't know man... I might have to side with Arnold on this one.
No because quantum mechanics requires the original to be destroyed in order pinpoint spin or acceleration. In fact we can't even do both, but lets just assume we could.
If that wasn't a law of physics, sure, why not.
That would actually make for an awesome science fiction novel. A man steps through a teleporter, and it malfunctions. He is still here, despite his replacement still materializing on the other end, but the law demands that he die, a individual can only exist in once instance at a time. But he doesn't want to die, he still feels alive and feels he has as much as a right to life as his "clone". Drama and deep existential angst ensue.
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EPT
