|
On August 07 2010 07:04 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 06:59 Daimon wrote:On August 06 2010 19:32 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2010 19:27 Daimon wrote:
potentially a great tool for suicidal people.
off yourself and let your copy take over for a day.
your copy can then use the machine at the end of the day.
repeat until you die to something else.
it changes almost nothing for them, but it might improve the quality of their life knowing they'll find rest without introducing a burden on loved ones.
but you don't really need a machine for that. you could just imagine that every time you sleep you die, and every time you wake up you wake up as a copy. Except the guy who steps out of the machine will say "fuck, that didn't work" and shoot himself in the head. no, you didn't understand. that's why you tell yourself that you'll only do it at the end of the day. that way the clone will have the benefit of eternal rest as well. all he has to do is live through another day and pass the baton on to the next copy No, you don't understand what you're trying to say. As far as the copy (not clone) is concerned, he's as old as the original. He lived through your "only one more day". This machine is no more an interuption to the consciousness than blinking would be. Each copy that came out would have lived for all the previous days, you could say to them "but you were just created by that machine" but they'd think, feel and remember for the past however many years they were alive. And if they intended to commit suicide yesterday and decided to have just one more day then they'd remember that day being over, even if their particular atoms didn't live it.
yes i've already accounted for that in my answer
|
United States41980 Posts
On August 07 2010 23:01 Daimon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 07:04 KwarK wrote:On August 07 2010 06:59 Daimon wrote:On August 06 2010 19:32 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2010 19:27 Daimon wrote:
potentially a great tool for suicidal people.
off yourself and let your copy take over for a day.
your copy can then use the machine at the end of the day.
repeat until you die to something else.
it changes almost nothing for them, but it might improve the quality of their life knowing they'll find rest without introducing a burden on loved ones.
but you don't really need a machine for that. you could just imagine that every time you sleep you die, and every time you wake up you wake up as a copy. Except the guy who steps out of the machine will say "fuck, that didn't work" and shoot himself in the head. no, you didn't understand. that's why you tell yourself that you'll only do it at the end of the day. that way the clone will have the benefit of eternal rest as well. all he has to do is live through another day and pass the baton on to the next copy No, you don't understand what you're trying to say. As far as the copy (not clone) is concerned, he's as old as the original. He lived through your "only one more day". This machine is no more an interuption to the consciousness than blinking would be. Each copy that came out would have lived for all the previous days, you could say to them "but you were just created by that machine" but they'd think, feel and remember for the past however many years they were alive. And if they intended to commit suicide yesterday and decided to have just one more day then they'd remember that day being over, even if their particular atoms didn't live it. yes i've already accounted for that in my answer
No, no you haven't. I understand your argument fully but unfortunately you seem not to. The man stepping out of the machine would have lived all of the previous days when he didn't kill himself. He would not think this machine was helping him in any way. This is what would happen.
Man says "I can't go on living, I'm horribly depressed, in 24 hours I'll step into this machine that destroys and recreates me".
Man steps out of machine.
Man says "I can't go on living, I'm horribly depressed, I just spent the last 24 hours waiting to step into a machine. Stepping into the machine doesn't appear to have improved my situation. I've done my 24 hours of being depressed and I don't want to do another 24."
Man shoots himself in the head.
If he could cope with having one more day forever then you can just remove the teleporter and tell the guy to keep living life one day at a time.
|
On August 07 2010 23:11 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 23:01 Daimon wrote:On August 07 2010 07:04 KwarK wrote:On August 07 2010 06:59 Daimon wrote:On August 06 2010 19:32 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2010 19:27 Daimon wrote:
potentially a great tool for suicidal people.
off yourself and let your copy take over for a day.
your copy can then use the machine at the end of the day.
repeat until you die to something else.
it changes almost nothing for them, but it might improve the quality of their life knowing they'll find rest without introducing a burden on loved ones.
but you don't really need a machine for that. you could just imagine that every time you sleep you die, and every time you wake up you wake up as a copy. Except the guy who steps out of the machine will say "fuck, that didn't work" and shoot himself in the head. no, you didn't understand. that's why you tell yourself that you'll only do it at the end of the day. that way the clone will have the benefit of eternal rest as well. all he has to do is live through another day and pass the baton on to the next copy No, you don't understand what you're trying to say. As far as the copy (not clone) is concerned, he's as old as the original. He lived through your "only one more day". This machine is no more an interuption to the consciousness than blinking would be. Each copy that came out would have lived for all the previous days, you could say to them "but you were just created by that machine" but they'd think, feel and remember for the past however many years they were alive. And if they intended to commit suicide yesterday and decided to have just one more day then they'd remember that day being over, even if their particular atoms didn't live it. yes i've already accounted for that in my answer No, no you haven't. I understand your argument fully but unfortunately you seem not to. The man stepping out of the machine would have lived all of the previous days when he didn't kill himself. He would not think this machine was helping him in any way. This is what would happen. Man says "I can't go on living, I'm horribly depressed, in 24 hours I'll step into this machine that destroys and recreates me". Man steps out of machine. Man says "I can't go on living, I'm horribly depressed, I just spent the last 24 hours waiting to step into a machine. Stepping into the machine doesn't appear to have improved my situation. I've done my 24 hours of being depressed and I don't want to do another 24." Man shoots himself in the head. If he could cope with having one more day forever then you can just remove the teleporter and tell the guy to keep living life one day at a time.
yeah, i got that :p
you shouldn't just state someone isn't getting something in that way. i expected you to not make an error like that. if you don't understand something or think the other person is wrong, you should ask a question rather than coming from a position of superiority. it's condescending and makes you seem more interested than winning the argument than having a real discussion.
|
Ever seen The Fly?
Not really death if your reformed without memory loss or anything 
|
Would not use, too lazy to explain through phone's tiny keyboard, but has to do with contradicting human's most basic instinct (no, the other one, pervert).
|
I'd never do it. At least if we're talking about a realistic teleporter here. A teleporter in our world could never "teleport" our atoms and molecules from one part of the universe to the other, it would work more like a copy machine that kills the template. and that would suck obv.
(theres no use for me if I'm dead after all. doesn't make it better that an exact copy of me is walking around)
people expect to walk into a teleporter and then "wake up" or somethign on the other side. you wouldn't, unless they find a way to teleport by bending spacetime, which is unlikely. you'd walk into the teleporter and die. your consiousness would be gone. on the other side, someone else would "wake up" and think he'd be you, but you'd be gone.
|
On August 08 2010 02:02 heishe wrote:
I'd never do it. At least if we're talking about a realistic teleporter here. A teleporter in our world could never "teleport" our atoms and molecules from one part of the universe to the other, it would work more like a copy machine that kills the template. and that would suck obv.
(theres no use for me if I'm dead after all. doesn't make it better that an exact copy of me is walking around)
people expect to walk into a teleporter and then "wake up" or somethign on the other side. you wouldn't, unless they find a way to teleport by bending spacetime, which is unlikely. you'd walk into the teleporter and die. your consiousness would be gone. on the other side, someone else would "wake up" and think he'd be you, but you'd be gone.
The other person would wake up and think he'd be you. Now argue how he would _not_ be you? (and really, that strand of hair that stands on my head, does not define me, and neither do the individual atoms in the rest of my body.)
|
On August 08 2010 02:26 Badjas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 02:02 heishe wrote:
I'd never do it. At least if we're talking about a realistic teleporter here. A teleporter in our world could never "teleport" our atoms and molecules from one part of the universe to the other, it would work more like a copy machine that kills the template. and that would suck obv.
(theres no use for me if I'm dead after all. doesn't make it better that an exact copy of me is walking around)
people expect to walk into a teleporter and then "wake up" or somethign on the other side. you wouldn't, unless they find a way to teleport by bending spacetime, which is unlikely. you'd walk into the teleporter and die. your consiousness would be gone. on the other side, someone else would "wake up" and think he'd be you, but you'd be gone. The other person would wake up and think he'd be you. Now argue how he would _not_ be you? (and really, that strand of hair that stands on my head, does not define me, and neither do the individual atoms in the rest of my body.)
Rather simple, actually. If one defines life as a continuity, then that break would essentially mean that the other person is living a different life.
|
If the copy is perfect, recreating your full consciousness in the brain of "the other", then I'd think that person IS you.
However, how many imperfections would it take before that is no longer true?
|
Sure, no problem. There's nothing very special about the processes of death and life. As long as the brain state and physical state are preserved without any losses, I'm fine with it. I won't be wondering afterwards whether I'm the same person; I will be the same person.
|
+ Show Spoiler +
What do you mean by, "haven't you tried killing yourself" if I kill myself my conciousness ends, I cease to exist. If a reassembled me continues after I have been disassembled then conciousness continues and I continue to exist.
Have you even read what op said? Teleportation that will destroy you and make a "clone" in new place. Same particals won't be moved from one place to other. Just copy is created.
+ Show Spoiler +How about this. What if everything in your body was destroyed except for your brain and you transplanted your brain to a exact replica of a body. Is that body still you? Or say you completely die, through brain death, and by some process you are reanimated and brought back to life. Is that body or person the original you, even though that person is already technically dead by your definition?
What do you mean by "technically dead by your definition"? My definition is just if you get erased from this world and replaced by a clone then you are dead and your clone is alive. Transplanting a brain to your clone body would mean that conciousness continues and if you reanimate dead person in some magical way really fast then I believe he is still the same person too (because important parts of brain haven't destroyed or else they would've needed a replacement = new person). Anyway this part is really offtopic.. don't even know why you wrote it.
+ Show Spoiler +
If its only the sudden replacement of molecules that gets to you heres another hypothetical situation: What if you are disassembled into your base molecules, those molecules are brought to another location and then reassembeled to be exactly the same as before, would you count that as a new person or the same person?
Again haven't you read op? Let me quote because you obviously skipped it... I have written my post based on op.
This is a common thing in science fiction where you are 'teleported' by a machine that kills you, then reconstructs an exact copy of your body and mind at another point. The question is
Would you use it? (the copy really believes it is you and acts like and is indistinguishable from you. assume it's failsafe. the question is emotional rather than practical)
+ Show Spoiler +Delving even deeper, say your body dies but I transfer your brain into a computer and store it there until a new body can be made for you. Then I transfer the brain file into your new body, is deleting that brain file the same as deleting the existance of a human?
Transfer brain into a compter? wtf.... you probably mean that all information hidden in brain will be created in computer (you can't transfer it, obviously) and brain gets destroyed. Same answer as creating a clone => you die!
|
This has probably been written, but yourself 10 years ago and yourself now do not share the same atoms, so technically you arent the same you as you were. There is no such this as the "soul" or anything else etheral that cant be transferred
|
So lets say there is a perfect copy of you. You are still alive. I kill you. Do you not die?
|
If you are saying every molecule, every atom, every base particle is exactly the same and your entire consciousness is downloaded exactly then you can't really call it much of a copy either. If it took your place the universe would continue on and you it would live your life exactly as you have and will. Heck if you can do this whats to keep you from shaving off a few pounds or adding muscle mass, removing cancer or disease. What if the "copy" could come out a BETTER you? Then what?
We are all just a bunch of particles and having my consciousness in this body or that one over there isn't going to make much of a difference. I will still have my wife and kids and be reading the same stuff on TL. I am not dead my container just changed.
If you are copied and both you and the copy exist leading seperate lives then you are not exactly the same. You began having different experiences the exact moment you existed together.
|
United States5162 Posts
On August 08 2010 06:23 Zeromaxx wrote:
If you are saying every molecule, every atom, every base particle is exactly the same and your entire consciousness is downloaded exactly then you can't really call it much of a copy either. If it took your place the universe would continue on and you it would live your life exactly as you have and will. Heck if you can do this whats to keep you from shaving off a few pounds or adding muscle mass, removing cancer or disease. What if the "copy" could come out a BETTER you? Then what?
We are all just a bunch of particles and having my consciousness in this body or that one over there isn't going to make much of a difference. I will still have my wife and kids and be reading the same stuff on TL. I am not dead my container just changed.
If you are copied and both you and the copy exist leading seperate lives then you are not exactly the same. You began having different experiences the exact moment you existed together.
The point is that you, the human being experiencing whats happening around you, would no longer exist. You would no longer experience your thoughts, someone else would. You would close your eyes and never experience anything ever again. Someone else would open their eyes and take your place. In the end, nothing has changed and the copy feels no different from the original, but it is not the same person experiencing things in both cases.
|
On August 08 2010 02:32 Phrujbaz wrote:
If the copy is perfect, recreating your full consciousness in the brain of "the other", then I'd think that person IS you.
However, how many imperfections would it take before that is no longer true?
It's much easier to see things into perspective, if you think about these:
If it makes 10 copies are they all you? If not, which one is you and which one isn't?
If it doesn't kill the original, how does this change things? Is the original you still you and the clone not you, despite absolutely nothing changing for the clone itself?
It could also kill you some time after creating the clone. During that period which one of them is you and how does the close suddenly become you?
|
If it doesn't kill the original, how does this change things? Is the original you still you and the clone not you, despite absolutely nothing changing for the clone itself?
They are both you. Did everyone just ignore my analogy?
What do you mean by "technically dead by your definition"? My definition is just if you get erased from this world and replaced by a clone then you are dead and your clone is alive. Transplanting a brain to your clone body would mean that conciousness continues and if you reanimate dead person in some magical way really fast then I believe he is still the same person too (because important parts of brain haven't destroyed or else they would've needed a replacement = new person). Anyway this part is really offtopic.. don't even know why you wrote it.
Consciousness does not transcend time or space lols. It is a local phenomenon that is the result of any given state of mind. If two identical things are identical, down to the spin of every last sub-atomic particle, then in order for them not to be contiguous to one another, then consciousness would have to be the product of something that is not entirely encapsulated within those two identical entities.
aka: a soul.
The question is not "would your soul" transfer, which would make for a funny mythical discussion on religious and spiritual viewpoints, but would your consciousness transfer.
srsly both of you, just read this.
+ Show Spoiler +
I might think
"If I could make an identical duplicate myself without killing the original (lets pretend thats possible, idk if it is), you might look at him and say "Hey, I'm still conscious", therefor, he is not me. Killing "me" (The physical entity with this thought) would kill "me" forever, and I would not become "him"."
Right? No. Wrong.
Lets use an alternate example of this paradox. Lets say I make a wormhole that is incredibly large, so big I can not only transmit information ftl, it can transmit actual matter. It is 100% stable, and I can walk through it without being vaporized or whatever, on a simple walkway.
But instead of connecting it to some far off exotic destination, I connect it to another walkway exactly ten feet of it. The end result is I actually walk into the past. This is how FTL travel works.
( A wormhole, like this one, or the one used in the OP to transmit information/particle states, is theoretically doable, but requires an beam of energy with a height bigger then the universe (according to one model done by a physicist, though obviously, it has not been proven), so we're not talking about events that could possibly physically impossible. )
The end result is I end up meeting me....before I step into the wormhole.. Lets for a moment, ignore the thousands of batshit crazy things that defy all logic that could occur from this meet up, and move on.
Now, I still have consciousness, because I am still in my original body with a state of mind that was never interrupted. It is still "my" body, my original body, the one that I was born with. At the same time, I know that is true for me in the past. After all, when I entered the portal, I was still all of those.
So which one is the real you? They both are, and you know that, because you physical are/were in both positions, with an uninterrupted consciousness.
You've created an identical deliemna without creating a scenario that could possibly result in either versions of you not being the real you.
So. How do you solve this problem? The only answer is that regardless of how many times "you" are duplicated, then erased, is as long as some version of you still exist, so does your consciousness, because it is a local phenomenon bound by the rules of space and time. Their is no alternative that manages to answer the above phenomenon.
The point is that you, the human being experiencing whats happening around you, would no longer exist. You would no longer experience your thoughts, someone else would. You would close your eyes and never experience anything ever again. Someone else would open their eyes and take your place. In the end, nothing has changed and the copy feels no different from the original, but it is not the same person experiencing things in both cases.
Their isn't a cell in my body which has existed since I was born. Am I not the same conscious entity I was born as?
|
On August 08 2010 06:30 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 06:23 Zeromaxx wrote:
If you are saying every molecule, every atom, every base particle is exactly the same and your entire consciousness is downloaded exactly then you can't really call it much of a copy either. If it took your place the universe would continue on and you it would live your life exactly as you have and will. Heck if you can do this whats to keep you from shaving off a few pounds or adding muscle mass, removing cancer or disease. What if the "copy" could come out a BETTER you? Then what?
We are all just a bunch of particles and having my consciousness in this body or that one over there isn't going to make much of a difference. I will still have my wife and kids and be reading the same stuff on TL. I am not dead my container just changed.
If you are copied and both you and the copy exist leading seperate lives then you are not exactly the same. You began having different experiences the exact moment you existed together. The point is that you, the human being experiencing whats happening around you, would no longer exist. You would no longer experience your thoughts, someone else would. You would close your eyes and never experience anything ever again. Someone else would open their eyes and take your place. In the end, nothing has changed and the copy feels no different from the original, but it is not the same person experiencing things in both cases.
what is "you"?
|
United States5162 Posts
On August 08 2010 06:40 Guss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 06:30 Myles wrote:On August 08 2010 06:23 Zeromaxx wrote:
If you are saying every molecule, every atom, every base particle is exactly the same and your entire consciousness is downloaded exactly then you can't really call it much of a copy either. If it took your place the universe would continue on and you it would live your life exactly as you have and will. Heck if you can do this whats to keep you from shaving off a few pounds or adding muscle mass, removing cancer or disease. What if the "copy" could come out a BETTER you? Then what?
We are all just a bunch of particles and having my consciousness in this body or that one over there isn't going to make much of a difference. I will still have my wife and kids and be reading the same stuff on TL. I am not dead my container just changed.
If you are copied and both you and the copy exist leading seperate lives then you are not exactly the same. You began having different experiences the exact moment you existed together. The point is that you, the human being experiencing whats happening around you, would no longer exist. You would no longer experience your thoughts, someone else would. You would close your eyes and never experience anything ever again. Someone else would open their eyes and take your place. In the end, nothing has changed and the copy feels no different from the original, but it is not the same person experiencing things in both cases. what is "you"?
You is the person experiencing your thoughts right now. A clone is not you, a clone is someone else is who exactly like you. You do not experience a clones thoughts as a clones brain is not connected to your body.
Their isn't a cell in my body which has existed since I was born. Am I not the same conscious entity I was born as?
That's a horrible comparison as its still the same brain connected to your body. How do I experience the thoughts of a brain in a different body that I'm not connected to at all? Oh, and there's a reason time travel is a paradox, so I don't buy your previous example at all/
|
The only problem is the nature of consciousness. How exactly does it clone you. Are we assuming some quasi religious idea in which you live on in the clone, or am I going to kill myself.
If I get to step in the machine and wake up as a clone then maybe I'd use it, but if this wouldn't slow my aging process what would be the point?
If it was an immortality machine then yeah, I'd use it.
I think the more traditional way of presenting this argument is a matter transporter that destroys you then rebuilds you at the other location from different materials. And like the Greek question this has the possibility of changing everything physical about your being, while you retain you're consciousness.
Too many variables yo, tis confusing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
