On July 24 2010 08:08 Mykill wrote: RTS is almost impossible on consoles to be any good. its difficult to get the whole game going. your APM is like 10 because of the scrolling selecting and stuffs
Remember starcraft for N64?
Also needing two joysticks to control your shot instead the sweep of the mouse gives PC games a good edge in FPS shooting.
Yeah, that certainly hasn't stopped a lot developers from trying, and failing horribly, to bring some kind of RTS experience (usually combined with an FPS or 3PS) to consoles.
It doesn't even have to be as awesomely balanced and intricate as Starcraft, it just has to have good gameplay and intuitive controls to sell well on consoles, but not a single one has even come close. The control systems are just a giant clusterfuck and you spend more time sitting there struggling with the controller to do what it is you want to do than witnessing the result and forming strategies.
Anyone played the Overlord games, or Brutal Legend on a console? Good fucking god...they're simple as hell AND their controls suck. You just don't get any more disasterous than that from a strategy standpoint.
Halo Wars lolol my friend its like. its crap. its for the gamer who wants to say they play RTS and sounds smart
On July 24 2010 07:46 kainzero wrote: i'm tired of hearing that "if pc gamers could use a keyboard + mouse they would murder console gamers."
well you can't. just like you can't bring a women's basketball to a men's basketball game so it's easier to make your shots.
and comparisons across consoles, games, genres? why not compare jai alai and lacrosse with golf and baseball?
i feel like the only people who feel that they are "better gamers" are people who aren't that good at their own game and need something to brag about, like a street fighter player calling tekken a button masher. chances are, the street fighter player is mediocre and just wants to show off at something.
if you're so good at q3 for pc, play q3 for pc instead of saying you'd kick ass on the DC if you had your pc controls.
The complaint is that console FPS games are more popular when the skill ceiling, accuracy and precision are much lower. It's like wheel chair basketball getting better ratings than the NBA.
On July 24 2010 04:11 ZlaSHeR wrote: Let me know when a console player can do this
Lol really? I'm huge on CS but that is a random shot... I've seen complete noobs get shots like that. Watch some Halo3 tournament play and you can see the same thing, or youtube and you can see noobs get lucky shots.
You're right on that shot, but I'm just going to leave this right here.
Lol really? I'm huge on CS but that is a random shot... I've seen complete noobs get shots like that. Watch some Halo3 tournament play and you can see the same thing, or youtube and you can see noobs get lucky shots.
You're right on that shot, but I'm just going to leave this right here.
:D PC games feel a lot better. It actually feels like you have complete control. I don't understand the use of an analog stick. Sure you can do amazing shots, but a twitch of the little stick either 0.5cm or 0.49cm makes a crazy difference. I don't understand that.
I've done crazy random shots on Counterstrike during scrims, and my friends have too. And I've played my console gaming friends on Counterstrike multiple times. Not even close competition, and we're using my school's old computers.
Watch Bombsight, it's beautiful. I have not seen anything like it from other FPS's and what I have seen doesn't impress me.
On July 24 2010 09:03 SubtleArt wrote: A mouse is way easier to aim with than a keyboard
Heh. I downloaded a copy of Hexen 1 the other day and was messing around with it. Playing that game, using the arrow keys and using alt for strafe and shift for run was just torture on my hands. Can't believe I ever managed to get through any of these old FPS games without breaking my wrists.
On July 24 2010 08:44 Jibba wrote: The complaint is that console FPS games are more popular when the skill ceiling, accuracy and precision are much lower. It's like wheel chair basketball getting better ratings than the NBA.
First of all, what's popular has nothing to do with skill required to play. MW2 is trash and is the most popular FPS right now. (you don't even have to aim just noob tube, wtf.)
Second, skill required is such a nebulous topic.
My example - 100m Dash vs. 110m Hurdles.
Which requires more skill?
The hurdles offer more breadth of skill, because now you have to run fast, jump over something, and accelerate after jumping along with everything else required, like starting, accelerating from start, etc etc.
However the 100m takes away the jumping, the recovery when jumping and all that stuff. But now all the athletes have to focus on is starting, accelerating, etc. It may be just as hard, if not more difficult. You can argue that because they strip down the breadth, the concentrated effort on running straight makes it just as difficult to compete in.
Now take Halo. It's impossible to be extremely accurate on sticks, so they give you autoaim and reticle magnetism and all that. They take lower the skill ceiling. However, that also changes the way you move and position your team. It makes flanking much more significant because they can't move or turn their view as fast and because aiming is easier. It makes first shot more significant. Blah blah blah
I'm not saying it's better or worse, I'm just saying it's a different game which is why you should only care about whatever game you're playing and the rules and controls for that game.
Arguably, wheelchair basketball could take more skill than playing in the NBA if you have some really good players.
If you were really skilled you'd use the Xbox 360 controller in your computer's USB slot to play CS and Quake, just jack the sensitivity up to where you can turn at mouse speed. You'd have to have supreme control to manage moving the thumbsticks enough to not spin wildly around in circles. Then you can call all the mouse/keyboard using noobs out for not increasing the skill ceiling of their gaming.
Or you could not be a console/pc elitist for no reason at all and just play your own games. If it pisses you off when console gamers talk about how great their shit is, why would you stoop to that same level? Tell your friends to try it out, if they don't like it then whatever, different strokes.
On July 24 2010 10:22 Runnin wrote: If you were really skilled you'd use the Xbox 360 controller in your computer's USB slot to play CS and Quake, just jack the sensitivity up to where you can turn at mouse speed. You'd have to have supreme control to manage moving the thumbsticks enough to not spin wildly around in circles.
Actually that would be physically impossible to do. Modern console joysticks can sense only 8 directions at 3 different levels. They can only sense up, down, left, right and 1 position in-between each of them. They can only sense that they're being held lightly, moderately, or all the way down. Even worse you actually have to move the joystick just to get it to stop moving so you can't just go a set speed, wind up at your position, and then stop.
A mouse on the other hand can move in at any angle, depending on how you move it, at any speed, and as soon as you stop moving the cursor stops moving. It's not about elitism or not, mice are just better tools than joysticks in every way. There's a reason joysticks went from standard to absolutely no computer support 10 years ago.
Oh yeah, I remember MW2. I just grabbed the fastest firing gun I could with the largest spray, pointed it in the enemies direction and something usually died.
Lol really? I'm huge on CS but that is a random shot... I've seen complete noobs get shots like that. Watch some Halo3 tournament play and you can see the same thing, or youtube and you can see noobs get lucky shots.
That was walle lol, considered one of the best awpers of all time, less luck than you think, especially in a pressure situation like that.
On July 24 2010 08:49 Jibba wrote: You're right on that shot, but I'm just going to leave this right here.
Even though one could argue that Pc shooters have a higher skillceiling it is absolutely irrelevant in this. I mean even a average player would be able to beat someone with a controller. It´s like Larping where one guy has a sword and the other has a nerv gun and the first one to get three hits is dead.Guess who wins ... If they want to connect Xboxplayers with pcgamers either rewuire the pc to play with a pad or give the xbox players a Keyboard and a mouse.
Lol really? I'm huge on CS but that is a random shot... I've seen complete noobs get shots like that. Watch some Halo3 tournament play and you can see the same thing, or youtube and you can see noobs get lucky shots.
You're right on that shot, but I'm just going to leave this right here.
On July 24 2010 10:22 Runnin wrote: If you were really skilled you'd use the Xbox 360 controller in your computer's USB slot to play CS and Quake, just jack the sensitivity up to where you can turn at mouse speed. You'd have to have supreme control to manage moving the thumbsticks enough to not spin wildly around in circles.
Actually that would be physically impossible to do. Modern console joysticks can sense only 8 directions at 3 different levels. They can only sense up, down, left, right and 1 position in-between each of them. They can only sense that they're being held lightly, moderately, or all the way down. Even worse you actually have to move the joystick just to get it to stop moving so you can't just go a set speed, wind up at your position, and then stop.
A mouse on the other hand can move in at any angle, depending on how you move it, at any speed, and as soon as you stop moving the cursor stops moving. It's not about elitism or not, mice are just better tools than joysticks in every way. There's a reason joysticks went from standard to absolutely no computer support 10 years ago.
Oh yeah, I remember MW2. I just grabbed the fastest firing gun I could with the largest spray, pointed it in the enemies direction and something usually died.
I don't think anyone questions the fact that mouse/keyboard is much, much more precise than controllers. Hands are superior to feet but you don't see any non-French suggesting they be used in soccer. Console shooters can be a lot of fun if they are designed with the controller in mind. I don't understand why PC/Console players feel the need to bash the other. Play PC shooters if you enjoy them, play console if you prefer that, it's not all the complicated.
Lol really? I'm huge on CS but that is a random shot... I've seen complete noobs get shots like that. Watch some Halo3 tournament play and you can see the same thing, or youtube and you can see noobs get lucky shots.
That was walle lol, considered one of the best awpers of all time, less luck than you think, especially in a pressure situation like that.
Oh, you're right. I had watched it in window mode and didn't see the arm come out so I thought he was just taking a wallshot and got someone about to peek out. Guess that's why you need to go full screen. D:
Perhaps skill ceiling was the wrong term to use, because sticks are harder to use. Performance ceiling is better. You can't perform at the same level as PC gamers without a mouse. People do it because at that level, you're not just playing for fun. You're playing to be the best, but when your skill gets watered down by the mechanics, it's hard to say that. You could make a similar argument between BW and WC3.
It even happens between Q3 and CS players to some extent, and as a CS player, I think the Q3 players have a point.
On July 24 2010 08:08 Mykill wrote: RTS is almost impossible on consoles to be any good. its difficult to get the whole game going. your APM is like 10 because of the scrolling selecting and stuffs
Remember starcraft for N64?
Also needing two joysticks to control your shot instead the sweep of the mouse gives PC games a good edge in FPS shooting.
Yeah, that certainly hasn't stopped a lot developers from trying, and failing horribly, to bring some kind of RTS experience (usually combined with an FPS or 3PS) to consoles.
It doesn't even have to be as awesomely balanced and intricate as Starcraft, it just has to have good gameplay and intuitive controls to sell well on consoles, but not a single one has even come close. The control systems are just a giant clusterfuck and you spend more time sitting there struggling with the controller to do what it is you want to do than witnessing the result and forming strategies.
Anyone played the Overlord games, or Brutal Legend on a console? Good fucking god...they're simple as hell AND their controls suck. You just don't get any more disasterous than that from a strategy standpoint.
Halo Wars lolol my friend its like. its crap. its for the gamer who wants to say they play RTS and sounds smart
I'm gonna wait in line and buy halo wars at the midnight release of SC2 at the gamestop near my place and loudly proclaim that I am buying a -REAL- RTS and see how long it takes for a knife to make contact with my jugular.
But in all honesty, I agree. Halo Wars is a joke. I played it with my tryhard pants on, became #3 Arbiter player in the United States and #8 in the world. That game is so easy, it's so simplistic, and it's so 1a2a3a. It's no macro, you produce from like 3 or 4 buildings at the most and micro is so retardedly simple.
Lol really? I'm huge on CS but that is a random shot... I've seen complete noobs get shots like that. Watch some Halo3 tournament play and you can see the same thing, or youtube and you can see noobs get lucky shots.
That was walle lol, considered one of the best awpers of all time, less luck than you think, especially in a pressure situation like that.
Oh, you're right. I had watched it in window mode and didn't see the arm come out so I thought he was just taking a wallshot and got someone about to peek out. Guess that's why you need to go full screen. D:
Perhaps skill ceiling was the wrong term to use, because sticks are harder to use. Performance ceiling is better. You can't perform at the same level as PC gamers without a mouse. People do it because at that level, you're not just playing for fun. You're playing to be the best, but when your skill gets watered down by the mechanics, it's hard to say that. You could make a similar argument between BW and WC3.
Very true. I admire my friends who play really well with the joystick. I tried and got destroyed by them. Over and over again, no competition. I'm not more skilled than them maybe, but they choose to limit themselves by using hardware that doesn't give you enough freedom.
In the future, maybe we'll get a full on experience in FPS's, or RTS's, where we use our body to control everything. Like in the RUSE trailers, or like in Gamer. When that day comes, I'll gladly switch to something that offers more freedom and control in gaming. But until then, I'll stick to what's best at the moment, under my budget.
On July 24 2010 10:22 Runnin wrote: If you were really skilled you'd use the Xbox 360 controller in your computer's USB slot to play CS and Quake, just jack the sensitivity up to where you can turn at mouse speed. You'd have to have supreme control to manage moving the thumbsticks enough to not spin wildly around in circles.
Actually that would be physically impossible to do. Modern console joysticks can sense only 8 directions at 3 different levels. They can only sense up, down, left, right and 1 position in-between each of them. They can only sense that they're being held lightly, moderately, or all the way down. Even worse you actually have to move the joystick just to get it to stop moving so you can't just go a set speed, wind up at your position, and then stop.
A mouse on the other hand can move in at any angle, depending on how you move it, at any speed, and as soon as you stop moving the cursor stops moving. It's not about elitism or not, mice are just better tools than joysticks in every way. There's a reason joysticks went from standard to absolutely no computer support 10 years ago.
Oh yeah, I remember MW2. I just grabbed the fastest firing gun I could with the largest spray, pointed it in the enemies direction and something usually died.
You are both wrong!
But since this is obviously a flame thread, i will not bother posting any arguments and just say that first person shooters played with joypads is limiting your input capabilities. Therefor the game has to account for that (i.e.: "dumbed down") which in turn changes the game to what most here would see an "inferior" gameplay system.
I just picked up wipeout hd on the ps3 and the game is pretty hardcore. I dare you try playing that with keyboard (and mouse if you wish). You would not stand ANY chance ... same rules as above apply. If you want to play good competitive games on consoles CHOSE THE RIGHT GAME and stay away from FPS games.
AND STOP BITCHING! The article in the OP does not have ANY source and you are getting all worked up about this. Stop being mindless sheep!
Seriously. I am very disappointed finding this thread here.
On July 24 2010 04:12 Ace wrote: You are kidding yourself if you think it's "easier to code for the PC than for console". It's not that simple because there are numerous things to take into account for both machines. At the end of the day you'd sound a bit more believable if you knew that a console is literally just a dedicated graphics hog of a computer.
I agree fully... As a student in games development, we did research into this and when you code for a console, you know what the disc is going into 100% of the time. For PC you have to account for so many things, like different cpus, gpus, sound cards, motherboards etc etc.. they all make a difference.
On July 24 2010 10:03 Ciryandor wrote: And all those 360 degree trickshots are just BLEH on the consoles. TRY DOING THAT ON THE PC... people will laugh.
That's timing, not aiming lol... I tried doing it on CoD:MW2 with friends on PC, It looked awesome when I hit, it's all about timing and smooth movement of the mouse. That's add +1 skill to doing on PC
EPT
