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Denmark4783 Posts
On November 24 2013 00:55 marvellosity wrote:
But the issue itself is with sub-par e-cigarettes, not e-cigarettes which, when made properly, do not contain carcinogens - which is kinda the point.
I'd be all in favour of greater testing so that with whatever you buy you know exactly what you're getting.
Notice how we went from "e-cigs do not contain carcinogens" to "only sub-par e-cigs contain carcinogens". That was kinda the entire point - which is made stronger by the fact that you really have zero idea of which e-cig you have gotten your hands on. Glad we can agree on the need for better regulation.
You still have to take a glance at the second link concerning long-term effects of nicotine - you know that compound which is the entire reason for smoking in the first place (which is actually also hinted at in the CDC Q&A).
EDIT: My point is: It is wrong to declare e-cigs safe and healthy. Nicotine itself has the potential to be unhealthy, so no matter what else you combine it with and how you ingest it, before we are able to look longitudinally at Nicotine it is premature to declare something containing Nicotine for safe - which you are currently trying to pass it off as.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
I consider kettles safe; if a manufacturer for some reason unnecessarily put asbestos in a kettle, it would be unsafe. However, this does not affect my view that kettles are, in general, safe.
We didn't "go" from one point to another, a defective product (and unnecessarily including carcinogens IS defective) is not indicative of a product in general.
You can declare anything as unhealthy - back to my original "do you leave the house?" comment - there is no real evidence that the dangers are greater than with almost any activity, such as going outside where cars + their fumes exist.
Of course inhaling about anything is going to be less "healthy and safe" than inhaling plain air. But the relative risks? Meh. When I see something more persuasive than "we don't know the longterm risks because it's not longterm yet" or "it hurts babies and teenagers" or "there is some sort of correlation with insulin even though we don't actually know the lifestyle habits of the people we're experimenting on" then I'll start conceding some ground on how UNhealthy they are.
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Denmark4783 Posts
On November 24 2013 01:39 marvellosity wrote:
I consider kettles safe; if a manufacturer for some reason unnecessarily put asbestos in a kettle, it would be unsafe. However, this does not affect my view that kettles are, in general, safe.
We didn't "go" from one point to another, a defective product (and unnecessarily including carcinogens IS defective) is not indicative of a product in general.
You can declare anything as unhealthy - back to my original "do you leave the house?" comment - there is no real evidence that the dangers are greater than with almost any activity, such as going outside where cars + their fumes exist.
Of course inhaling about anything is going to be less "healthy and safe" than inhaling plain air. But the relative risks? Meh. When I see something more persuasive than "we don't know the longterm risks because it's not longterm yet" or "it hurts babies and teenagers" or "there is some sort of correlation with insulin even though we don't actually know the lifestyle habits of the people we're experimenting on" then I'll start conceding some ground on how UNhealthy they are.
I think you and I best stop here...
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
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I use mine since 2 month now, after 13 years of 1-2 packs a day. It's different for sure, it can't compare with real cigarettes, but I really like it.
I'm not stinky anymore, and don't spit my psalmons any time I run for 10 meters, I rediscovered my lovely fench baguette's taste, and I spend 6 € a week instead of 64...
It's all good for me. The change was not easy but I smoked only 3 cigarettes last 2 months (empty batteries during a party).
In january a french law will forbid to smoke in public areas and work but it's not a big deal for me. After years and years of going out to smoke, whatever the weather, I'm just used to it.
For those who are thinking about reducing or stopping cigarettes, I think it's a very good thing. It's healthier, cheaper and quite pleasant.
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marv you should have asked me about ecigs I'm like an aficionado.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
I'll PM you when you least expect it 
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On November 23 2013 21:15 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 12:17 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On November 23 2013 09:41 LaNague wrote:
yes, i get very angry at people that think they can smoke anywhere just because the smoke is invisible.
Its still poison. Not that this will change your mind, but By the standards of occupational hygiene, current data do not indicate that exposures to vapers from contaminants in
electronic cigarettes warrant a concern. There are no known toxicological synergies among compounds in the aerosol,
and mixture of the contaminants does not pose a risk to health. http://publichealth.drexel.edu/~/media/Files/publichealth/ms08.pdf I have taken the liberty of bolding the important part of your selected quote, because it seems like you were a little too quick on the trigger there. It is all fine and dandy that the contaminants do not appear toxic at the levels in the vapor, however that doesn't change the fact that the vapor in it's entirety is cause for concern. From the same paragraph as you quoted: Show nested quote +However, aerosol generated during vaping on the whole, when considering the declared
ingredients themselves, if it were treated in the same manner as an emission from industrial process, creates personal
exposures that would justify surveillance of exposures and health among exposed persons. The authors of that article (which isn't published in a peer-reviewed journal and has some pretty relevant COI which you neglected to mention) subscribe to the notion that second-hand smoke shouldn't be an issue as the exposure is in orders of magnitude less than for the person using the e-cigarette - however I see no actual data to support this, and no matter how they try to avoid the nicotine exposure (they claim it voluntary to the user, and conveniently enough neglect it for the 2 lines they have assigned to talking about second-hand exposure). And even better, in the 2 lines about second-hand exposure they neglect to account for the fact that this second-hand exposure is still imposed on people without their consent which is morally a cause for concern. All in all - e-cigs are less harmful than traditional ones, but they still aren't comparable to fresh air - don't try and pass it off as such. EDIT: For the record: I couldn't care less about what you decide to inhale and not to inhale. I believe in people making informed choices and taking responsibilities for their own actions. Ultimately the choice is really yours, so vapor on 
Valid points. I do think that the second hand smoke from e-cigs is less harmful then analog cigarettes, but like you said, I can understand why people are still apprehensive to being around someone smoking an e-cig in public.
Hopefully in the future there is a further, even safer step. I am not a smoker, but I think there will always be smokers in my lifetime, and I'd like to see them stigmatized a little less, which is why I responded to the other gentleman earlier.. and I agree, let people make their own choices and then hold them accountable.
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On November 24 2013 00:55 marvellosity wrote:
e-cigarettes made properly do not contain carcinogens
Nicotine is not classified as a carcinogen based on current understanding, but, the real story may be a touch more complex:
Wong HP, Yu L, Lam EK, Tai EK, Wu WK, Cho CH (2007). Nicotine promotes colon tumor growth and angiogenesis through beta-adrenergic activation. Toxicol. Sci. 97 (2): 279–87.
Chowdhury P, Udupa KB (2006). Nicotine as a mitogenic stimulus for pancreatic acinar cell proliferation. World J. Gastroenterol. 12 (46): 7428–32.
Natori T, Sata M, Washida M, Hirata Y, Nagai R, Makuuchi M (2003). Nicotine enhances neovascularization and promotes tumor growth. Mol. Cells 16 (2): 143–6.
Davis R, Rizwani W, Banerjee S (2009). Nicotine promotes tumor growth and metastasis in mouse models of lung cancer. In Pao, William. PLoS ONE 4 (10): e7524.
Ye YN, Liu ES, Shin VY, Wu WK, Luo JC, Cho CH (2004). Nicotine promoted colon cancer growth via epidermal growth factor receptor, c-Src, and 5-lipoxygenase-mediated signal pathway. J. Pharmacol. Exp. Ther. 308 (1): 66–72.
just tryna' polemicize, sorry...
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I'm starting to subscribe to the "life to your years" thing. As a man, I'm already inherently more at risk for colon cancer than women, right? I'm already genetically predisposed to diabetes due to inherited genetics on top of being overweight. I smoked normal cigarettes for 9 years, I've already probably done all the damage that needed doing to make my old age hell.
Reading the evidence that nicotine may help those things along doesn't really phase me, in the same way that reading http://www.ehhi.org/reports/exhaust/summary.shtml doesn't make me afraid to go outside.
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Fuck off the discussion of whether or not they're good for you. Obviously they're PROBABLY not good for you, but there's also evidence that nicotine prevents neurodegeneration as well so let's all just recognize that there are upsides and downsides and move on. Before I started vaping I was smoking pall malls nonfiltered and CLEARLY vaping is less harmful than that.
POST YOUR SETUPS
I'm running an iTaste vv v3 (variable voltage/wattage) with either iClear 16s or Kanger Mini Protank 2s. Been thinking about upgrading to the Protank 3 which just came out because it's dual coil. I want to get into mechanical mods but I don't have the time with grad school and practicum and work, but the iTaste vv v3 is fucking amazing for its cost (40 for the whole kit + a box of iClear 16s).
As far as juice goes, I've been looking around. I started on the volcano ones but they suck and I ordered a couple batches from mount baker vapor which have been amazing. TRY THEIR ECTO COOLER, IT TASTES LIKE HI-C (but don't use it in a plastic tank as any citrus/cinnamon juice cracks plastic). I was relatively unimpressed with the other flavors I ordered (vanilla tobacco, chocolate tobacco, dark chocolate) but Ecto Cooler is amazing. Some guy in my area makes his own juice and sells it and his wasn't bad either. He cuts it with vodka and it was actually getting me tipsy for short periods, which was kinda cool.
Anyone have any good juice suggestions? I prefer a ratio of 20/80 PG/VG so far and was thinking about actually switching over to pure VG on my next batch. Looking for good all day vapes, so let me know if you have any recommendations!
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battery: ego CTwist, 1100mA, 3,2 - 4,8 v (?)
vaporizer: CE4 something blue and white
Liquid: Cafe Arabica (Red Kiwi), 15 mg, regulary
For me, the liquid tastes herb, less synthetical.
As i'm going to buy a second battery, i consider to buy one without voltage modulator, and therefore with usb charger.
So would a battery without vm change my smoking habbits by a lot? Voltage is almost everyday at 3,2. So a 1100mA with usb instead of voltage modulator should work for me?!
The Pro Tank 2 is certainly within the battery order. I'm sick off filthy vaporizers cause of shoddy/not so sturdy quality.
Also i'm looking for a good table retainer. Have you guys any recommendation on that?
I found a pretty cool one
+ Show Spoiler +
but that's not what i'm looking for, exactly. I would prefer steatite-like ones. Generaly more useful then fancy, overall.
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On November 24 2013 06:53 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Fuck off the discussion of whether or not they're good for you. Obviously they're PROBABLY not good for you, but there's also evidence that nicotine prevents neurodegeneration as well so let's all just recognize that there are upsides and downsides and move on. Before I started vaping I was smoking pall malls nonfiltered and CLEARLY vaping is less harmful than that.
POST YOUR SETUPS
I'm running an iTaste vv v3 (variable voltage/wattage) with either iClear 16s or Kanger Mini Protank 2s. Been thinking about upgrading to the Protank 3 which just came out because it's dual coil. I want to get into mechanical mods but I don't have the time with grad school and practicum and work, but the iTaste vv v3 is fucking amazing for its cost (40 for the whole kit + a box of iClear 16s).
As far as juice goes, I've been looking around. I started on the volcano ones but they suck and I ordered a couple batches from mount baker vapor which have been amazing. TRY THEIR ECTO COOLER, IT TASTES LIKE HI-C (but don't use it in a plastic tank as any citrus/cinnamon juice cracks plastic). I was relatively unimpressed with the other flavors I ordered (vanilla tobacco, chocolate tobacco, dark chocolate) but Ecto Cooler is amazing. Some guy in my area makes his own juice and sells it and his wasn't bad either. He cuts it with vodka and it was actually getting me tipsy for short periods, which was kinda cool.
Anyone have any good juice suggestions? I prefer a ratio of 20/80 PG/VG so far and was thinking about actually switching over to pure VG on my next batch. Looking for good all day vapes, so let me know if you have any recommendations!
I'm running a SMOK SiD VV with the Protank 2. Ecto is among my favoritest of vapes. I've been doing a Florida Citrus that's really good from Vermilion River, and Mountain Oak has a flavor called Red Drop that's pretty good but a little strong for all-day usage, it's a raspberry lemonade
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E-cigs and regular cigs make people look like fishes. Fish face. 
Doesn't Snoop Doggie Dog use it for "other" recreational uses or am I confusing it with something else?
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On November 24 2013 06:17 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2013 00:55 marvellosity wrote:
e-cigarettes made properly do not contain carcinogens
Nicotine is not classified as a carcinogen based on current understanding, but, the real story may be a touch more complex: Wong HP, Yu L, Lam EK, Tai EK, Wu WK, Cho CH (2007). Nicotine promotes colon tumor growth and angiogenesis through beta-adrenergic activation. Toxicol. Sci. 97 (2): 279–87. Chowdhury P, Udupa KB (2006). Nicotine as a mitogenic stimulus for pancreatic acinar cell proliferation. World J. Gastroenterol. 12 (46): 7428–32. Natori T, Sata M, Washida M, Hirata Y, Nagai R, Makuuchi M (2003). Nicotine enhances neovascularization and promotes tumor growth. Mol. Cells 16 (2): 143–6. Davis R, Rizwani W, Banerjee S (2009). Nicotine promotes tumor growth and metastasis in mouse models of lung cancer. In Pao, William. PLoS ONE 4 (10): e7524. Ye YN, Liu ES, Shin VY, Wu WK, Luo JC, Cho CH (2004). Nicotine promoted colon cancer growth via epidermal growth factor receptor, c-Src, and 5-lipoxygenase-mediated signal pathway. J. Pharmacol. Exp. Ther. 308 (1): 66–72. just tryna' polemicize, sorry...
Cancer and the rest of the diseases mentioned are genetically linked.
The lady that lived the longest out of any other person in the world up until this point in human history smoked cigarettes.
I have relatives that smoke 1-2 packs a day and are 80+ years old......
I don't smoke but I'm just trying to prove a point that there's no playing it safe in this life. We're all going to die one day or another old or young from cancer from heart diseases in the end it doesn't even matter.
Some people enjoy smoking....let them enjoy it. That or we could all be scared when it comes to diseases and death (fear of death and diseases is based around ignorance) and eat raw vegan and live in a hospital room and be monitored and bed ridden all of our lives and live to 100 years+.
Quality > Quantity
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I need to drop to low or no nic, I keep over-vaping to the point where I don't feel well. The B&M near me charges about $15 per 30mL bottle so I'm thinking about ordering somewhere online (such as MountBaker or some of the other recommended places on the ecr reddit). Any recommendations for 0mg-nic flavors or vendors? For reference I've been enjoying the grape and black cherry flavors I've gotten locally.
Edit: Actually, I think I want to move towards an RBA as well, the tank thing is nice and I'll probably keep my Protank II active for on the go, but for sitting at home I think I want something a little more delicious / effective. Watched a video for the IGO-L and that seems to be something in the right direction.
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On December 04 2013 04:50 ObviousOne wrote:
I need to drop to low or no nic, I keep over-vaping to the point where I don't feel well. The B&M near me charges about $15 per 30mL bottle so I'm thinking about ordering somewhere online (such as MountBaker or some of the other recommended places on the ecr reddit). Any recommendations for 0mg-nic flavors or vendors? For reference I've been enjoying the grape and black cherry flavors I've gotten locally.
Edit: Actually, I think I want to move towards an RBA as well, the tank thing is nice and I'll probably keep my Protank II active for on the go, but for sitting at home I think I want something a little more delicious / effective. Watched a video for the IGO-L and that seems to be something in the right direction.
Honestly, this has always seemed like one of the pitfalls of e-cigs to me. The ease of use, as much as it is a selling point, I think actually creates a bit of a problem.
With traditional cigarettes, the physical wear and tear on the throat and esophagus actually serves as a mild deterrent. Just like a hangover can temporarily curb your desire for alcohol, a lot of drugs have a sort of built-in mechanism to deter overuse. This is why I've found drugs like marijuana to potentially be more (at least psychologically) addictive, as there really are no lasting negative effects on your body.
Similarly, the ease with which one can use e-cigarettes makes them almost too readily accessible, to the point where I think the potential for nicotine addiction can actually be greater than what you would traditionally see with cigarettes. Most of the smokers who smoke copious amounts of cigarettes on a daily basis are only able to do so after years of smoking and damaging nerve cells that would otherwise cause their body to reject the constant smoke inhalation. With e-cigarettes, you lose that barrier for entry, and when you add the common perception of them being less harmful with their convenience factor, you get a recipe for addiction.
That being said, for people who use them as a substitute for real cigarettes, this doesn't apply as much since you're already addicted to nicotine. However, you could reasonably increase your average nicotine intake above what it was when you smoked real cigarettes, and in that way, they could further reinforce and actually strenghten your nicotine addiction. Of course, inhaling 100mg of nicotine a day through e-cigarettes is probably still far more healthy than inhaling 50mg of nicotine (in addition to all the other chemicals) from real cigarettes, but I think it's at least something worth considering.
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Zero-nic smokers are like decaf coffee drinkers or people who like O'Douls. You're all doing it wrong. <3
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My only issue with eCigs is concern over knowing when to stop vaping. I know, for example, that when I hit the filter, I should stop smoking my cigarette. (Unrelated, it also takes me about 5-7 minutes. I've timed my breaks using them. Two cigarettes, it's time to go back inside.)
With an eCig, I don't have that feedback. I could wind up with a lot more nicotine than I was going for - and dammit I don't want to buy a watch. Otherwise, I think they're pretty nifty, and echo that quality control is important. (Regarding cancer, etc, nicotine is a poison. Period. A very very small quantity of pure nicotine will kill you, your friends, etc. The amount you get smoking a cigarette is not lethal, but it absolutely isn't healthy. The biggest health risk connected to smoking is not nicotine, it's all the combustion byproducts that eCigs shouldn't produce.)
+ Show Spoiler +Nicotine is such a wonderful poison it's in terrorist manuals for biological and chemical weapons as a potential means of assassination. I'm not saying anything else, because NSA.
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On December 04 2013 06:29 VisceraEyes wrote:
Zero-nic smokers are like decaf coffee drinkers or people who like O'Douls. You're all doing it wrong. <3
Bro do you even vape? Where you get your juice? I wanted the 411!
Yeah I'm using vape to quit smoking (11-12 days or so cig free thus far!!) so 0mg juice is the penultimate goal for me. Mount Baker, then, mister helpful? =P
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