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On November 30 2009 08:02 FragKrag wrote:
Saturnize I don't think there is a single country in Europe where the majority has no religious beliefs
maybe, just maybe the Netherlands, but I think even that is a long shot.
Sweden. I P-R-O-M-I-S-E
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All religion is bullshit. If you're going to be intolerant to one then be intolerant to all of them. But that's unrealistic.
Well it IS their country, why can't they have a say in how it should be? I don't get why all the western countries have to give in to everything foreign just so they can be politically correct.
Fine, maybe they are xenophobic and intolerant. Does that make them terrible and evil human beings? They just want to live their lives according to tradition and what they are familiar with. Why do the local people have to start changing their ways for a group of people that left their own country in search of a better country to live in.
oh yea and sweden is pretty awesome in that nearly everyone here is atheist. a month ago i overheard a girl talking on the phone and said something like "...omg that guy was a religion nerd... " lol sweden is awesome. religious people are seen as stupid nerds hahaha.
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On December 01 2009 19:08 GinNtoniC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 08:02 FragKrag wrote:
Saturnize I don't think there is a single country in Europe where the majority has no religious beliefs
maybe, just maybe the Netherlands, but I think even that is a long shot. Sweden. I P-R-O-M-I-S-E
Yep, Sweden.
Then again "religious beliefs" aren't that clear cut. Alot of Swedes don't go to church but many people believe in "something". You guys are making way too many assumptions of your own here. I would say there are more agnostics than atheists in Sweden for example.
Pyro, yeah religious people are often viewed like a bit weird here. At the same time we have one of the highest rates of depression in Europe, which may or may not have something to do with us being a secularized country and lacking the comfort from religion.
Removing god is not always positive for people's well-being, although it's the rational thing to do.
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Zurich15345 Posts
On December 01 2009 19:08 GinNtoniC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 08:02 FragKrag wrote:
Saturnize I don't think there is a single country in Europe where the majority has no religious beliefs
maybe, just maybe the Netherlands, but I think even that is a long shot. Sweden. I P-R-O-M-I-S-E
About half of Europe actually. Pretty accurate numbers from what I can tell:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe
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On December 01 2009 16:18 Underwhelmed wrote:I looked at all three of your links (through Google translator), but I couldn't find a single figure on what percentage of second and/or third generation descendants of immigrants lack proficiency in German. They mostly talked about problems with immigrants, and even then, there was often a lack numbers. I found one study that claimed 2/3rd of second generation descendants tested in the 4th year had problems with reading, although I couldn't find such a figure for native-born children to compare to. Still quite a high number for any first-world country though, so I guess your claims have some merit.
Unfotunately, my claims have not only some merit...
You seem to like numbers so here are some for you:
Integration Problems - It basically says:
- turkish immigrants are the least integrated immigrant group in Germany
- third and even forth generation turkish immigrants not wishing to integrate
- 30% do NOT achieve ANY educational degree (=not finishing even 8 grade...)
- only 14% finishing 13th grade (in comparison 25% of Germans finish 13th grade)
- 70% finishing only 9th grade (without any further schooling (German average is about 20%))
- 42% of turks in Berlin are unemployed (German average ~10%)
Integration Problems - basically saying the same as above with some more text
Still, banning minarets is just reactionary backlash that won't accomplish anything; it doesn't do anything concrete, but what it does do is send a message that other cultures aren't welcome. For a country struggling to integrate immigrants, this is very counterproductive. You might as well ban crosses in hopes that people will stop being Christian.
Yeah sure. It's far better to let them completely bar themselves from society. Since the mosques offer a place to spend time and pass activities, guess where many turks decide to spend all of their time? I honestly cannot imagine how they would integrate in Germany if they continue like this...
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this is pretty blatant racism/ discrimination against minority "alien" culture. the picture says it all, its portrayed as if the minarets are some kind of disease sprouting off the land and spreading all over
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Knowing that there are fanatics , why are they making such decision ? It ll rather cause problems than solve anything . Terrorist threat, even tho low in Swiss will be a bit or more higher because of that decision , right ?
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On December 01 2009 13:59 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2009 13:40 pubbanana wrote:On December 01 2009 13:19 himurakenshin wrote:On December 01 2009 12:43 ghostWriter wrote:On December 01 2009 11:54 Freaky[x] wrote:
I'm not sure if this is right, but I heard that many of the turks in germany are treated like trash and take on the worse jobs because people hate them so much (maybe not hate but they are discriminated against). They are basically lower class citizens. It's hard to have a will to integrate a society when you're not represented on a political level, because as a minority you will be slaves of the upper class. How do you want them to learn german when your government brings them as cheap labor...?
I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time.
Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject)
As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on.
I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining. Religion is a scourge that should be eliminated. Nothing else promotes ignorance, intolerance and blind faith like religion in general does, not just Islam. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Also, take a look at how voters in various states in America are refusing to give gay people the right to get married. Even if you hate gay people, how can you possibly do this? Many people use religion as their justification, claiming that God hates gays or whatever and posting the lines from the Bible that agree with their view. If their beliefs didn't affect other people, then there wouldn't be a problem, but they do. Take stem cell research for example. Why did George W. Bush not fund this? Instead, he went out of his way to oppose research, despite the fact that it would save many lives. I guess cells that can't feel or think are more important than living people. This is especially hypocritical when you consider the number of executions that George W. Bush presided over and the number of soldiers and civilians that died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that began during his presidency. oh just shut up. are you serious. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Are you really serious. do you know how much islamic mathematicians and scientists have contributed to the world. do you know how many mathematicians were religious? Donald Knuth - do you know who he is? wow he is retarded isn't he, since he is so religious larry wall - he wrote the perl programming language. he is also a devout christian. he is obviously stupid. Charles Hard Townes - yeah he is stupid too issac newton - what the fuck did he ever accomplish Gottfried Leibniz - christian fucking noob Leonhard Euler - religion clearly drove him to doing jack shit with his life too so honestly I must say you have no idea what you are talking about. and blah blah about your gay shit. why the fuck don't they legalize incest and polygamy? whats wrong if I love my sister why can't I fuck her? lets agree that we won't have kids (even though its not that bad). better yet let me have gay sex with my brother. why is this illegal? all you gay rights supporters are fucking hypocrites if you ask me. they say they are supporting an ideal of equality, but they won't stand up for other issues which should be made legal based on the same principals. and btw to all the people saying islam is a dangerous religion. shut the fuck up. talk shit about islam once you have lived with some muslim people, or you are muslim, or have some association with them. not just some shit you hear on tv. and to the people quoting quran translations. first of all, go learn classical arabic before you try and talk about the quran. you reading quran translations is like trying to understand a progamers interview via babel fish. second of all if you look down on islam saying they are not advancing because of their religion, shut the fuck up as well. because they were one of the advanced cultures in science and technology. what fucking numbers are you guys using? english numbers? european numbers? christian numbers? i don't fucking think so. just because the islamic world isn't at the forefront of science and technology doesn't mean its because of their faith or culture that's holding them back. india was one of the most fucking advanced country in the world, let alone asia. infact arabic numbers are really indian numbers with a different script. if you don't know, everything from buddhism, karma, martial arts, trigonometry, shaolin, zen, buddhism kama sutra fuck it the list is way too long - came from indians. they aren't doing as well right now, but is that because of their faith or their culture? fuck no. so stop talking shit about how you think religion is holding people back. people who were very religious have accomplished more in a few years than most of us will accomplish in our whole lifetimes. now go fight for your right to fuck your mom. the fact that it's illegal is ridiculous. Would you say these advances happened because they were religious, though? I think that's what ghostwriter is arguing here, that their religion did not motivate any of these advances which were made in mathematics, science and technology. But I don't know, I'm not ghostwriter, I'm just assuming. Wait to see what he says. His point was that religion and science are incompatible, which is nonsense.
They are incompatible, unless by religion you mean picking and choosing which parts you believe so that it doesnt conflict with science. But, if you truly believe any of the popular religions then you hold believes that directly contradict science.
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On December 02 2009 01:51 Mastermind wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2009 13:59 koreasilver wrote:On December 01 2009 13:40 pubbanana wrote:On December 01 2009 13:19 himurakenshin wrote:On December 01 2009 12:43 ghostWriter wrote:On December 01 2009 11:54 Freaky[x] wrote:
I'm not sure if this is right, but I heard that many of the turks in germany are treated like trash and take on the worse jobs because people hate them so much (maybe not hate but they are discriminated against). They are basically lower class citizens. It's hard to have a will to integrate a society when you're not represented on a political level, because as a minority you will be slaves of the upper class. How do you want them to learn german when your government brings them as cheap labor...?
I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time.
Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject)
As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on.
I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining. Religion is a scourge that should be eliminated. Nothing else promotes ignorance, intolerance and blind faith like religion in general does, not just Islam. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Also, take a look at how voters in various states in America are refusing to give gay people the right to get married. Even if you hate gay people, how can you possibly do this? Many people use religion as their justification, claiming that God hates gays or whatever and posting the lines from the Bible that agree with their view. If their beliefs didn't affect other people, then there wouldn't be a problem, but they do. Take stem cell research for example. Why did George W. Bush not fund this? Instead, he went out of his way to oppose research, despite the fact that it would save many lives. I guess cells that can't feel or think are more important than living people. This is especially hypocritical when you consider the number of executions that George W. Bush presided over and the number of soldiers and civilians that died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that began during his presidency. oh just shut up. are you serious. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Are you really serious. do you know how much islamic mathematicians and scientists have contributed to the world. do you know how many mathematicians were religious? Donald Knuth - do you know who he is? wow he is retarded isn't he, since he is so religious larry wall - he wrote the perl programming language. he is also a devout christian. he is obviously stupid. Charles Hard Townes - yeah he is stupid too issac newton - what the fuck did he ever accomplish Gottfried Leibniz - christian fucking noob Leonhard Euler - religion clearly drove him to doing jack shit with his life too so honestly I must say you have no idea what you are talking about. and blah blah about your gay shit. why the fuck don't they legalize incest and polygamy? whats wrong if I love my sister why can't I fuck her? lets agree that we won't have kids (even though its not that bad). better yet let me have gay sex with my brother. why is this illegal? all you gay rights supporters are fucking hypocrites if you ask me. they say they are supporting an ideal of equality, but they won't stand up for other issues which should be made legal based on the same principals. and btw to all the people saying islam is a dangerous religion. shut the fuck up. talk shit about islam once you have lived with some muslim people, or you are muslim, or have some association with them. not just some shit you hear on tv. and to the people quoting quran translations. first of all, go learn classical arabic before you try and talk about the quran. you reading quran translations is like trying to understand a progamers interview via babel fish. second of all if you look down on islam saying they are not advancing because of their religion, shut the fuck up as well. because they were one of the advanced cultures in science and technology. what fucking numbers are you guys using? english numbers? european numbers? christian numbers? i don't fucking think so. just because the islamic world isn't at the forefront of science and technology doesn't mean its because of their faith or culture that's holding them back. india was one of the most fucking advanced country in the world, let alone asia. infact arabic numbers are really indian numbers with a different script. if you don't know, everything from buddhism, karma, martial arts, trigonometry, shaolin, zen, buddhism kama sutra fuck it the list is way too long - came from indians. they aren't doing as well right now, but is that because of their faith or their culture? fuck no. so stop talking shit about how you think religion is holding people back. people who were very religious have accomplished more in a few years than most of us will accomplish in our whole lifetimes. now go fight for your right to fuck your mom. the fact that it's illegal is ridiculous. Would you say these advances happened because they were religious, though? I think that's what ghostwriter is arguing here, that their religion did not motivate any of these advances which were made in mathematics, science and technology. But I don't know, I'm not ghostwriter, I'm just assuming. Wait to see what he says. His point was that religion and science are incompatible, which is nonsense. They are incompatible, unless by religion you mean picking and choosing which parts you believe so that it doesnt conflict with science. But, if you truly believe any of the popular religions then you hold believes that directly contradict science.
This is pretty self-evident; it's sad that you had to point this out like this for him. But then again, the unsupported affirmative statements that he makes pretty much speak for themselves
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On December 01 2009 16:41 Velr wrote:
Btw: If you think this is a minor topic we could/had to vote on you should check out all the stuff we actually vote about :p.
lol yeah, this is one of the most important things we voted on in recent times. The other two federal things last Sunday were a blanket ban on exporting war material (didn't pass) and a really small thing that nobody was interested in and that was going to pass anyway because nobody was really against it. :p
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I have already made my response to this topic on page 20-21 or so, but I would like to add that koreasilver should not simply come by and say "point X is nonsense." That's not an argument, and it's not like serious, educated authorities don't argue for point X (point X being "religion and science are incompatible", but that's beside the point).
To dismiss a reputable point as nonsense with no other reason given is trolling, flame baiting, and topic derailing. It baits people like me to then ask him to back up this claim, at which point he will probably offer flimsy reasons or try to turn the burden of proof on me. Next, I'm either taking pot shots at his reasons which he can accuse of being semantics, OR I'm offering my own reasons for a position that is completely off topic, OR we bicker over whom the burden of proof is on and who said what. And I'm okay with doing this, but why not do it in a new thread about this very new dispute? Why add "are religion and science incompatible?" to THIS topic, about whether governments should ban minarets?
You can see how this kind of thing would "steal" the topic, so really, hold your tongue until you are willing to research the topic and give reasons for the position on it you take--if you did that you would not make an "Not X, cause it's nonsense"-style argument.
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On December 02 2009 01:56 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2009 16:41 Velr wrote:
Btw: If you think this is a minor topic we could/had to vote on you should check out all the stuff we actually vote about :p. lol yeah, this is one of the most important things we voted on in recent times. The other two federal things last Sunday were a blanket ban on exporting war material (didn't pass) and a really small thing that nobody was interested in and that was going to pass anyway because nobody was really against it. :p
i was against it :p
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On December 02 2009 01:51 Mastermind wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2009 13:59 koreasilver wrote:On December 01 2009 13:40 pubbanana wrote:On December 01 2009 13:19 himurakenshin wrote:On December 01 2009 12:43 ghostWriter wrote:On December 01 2009 11:54 Freaky[x] wrote:
I'm not sure if this is right, but I heard that many of the turks in germany are treated like trash and take on the worse jobs because people hate them so much (maybe not hate but they are discriminated against). They are basically lower class citizens. It's hard to have a will to integrate a society when you're not represented on a political level, because as a minority you will be slaves of the upper class. How do you want them to learn german when your government brings them as cheap labor...?
I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time.
Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject)
As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on.
I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining. Religion is a scourge that should be eliminated. Nothing else promotes ignorance, intolerance and blind faith like religion in general does, not just Islam. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Also, take a look at how voters in various states in America are refusing to give gay people the right to get married. Even if you hate gay people, how can you possibly do this? Many people use religion as their justification, claiming that God hates gays or whatever and posting the lines from the Bible that agree with their view. If their beliefs didn't affect other people, then there wouldn't be a problem, but they do. Take stem cell research for example. Why did George W. Bush not fund this? Instead, he went out of his way to oppose research, despite the fact that it would save many lives. I guess cells that can't feel or think are more important than living people. This is especially hypocritical when you consider the number of executions that George W. Bush presided over and the number of soldiers and civilians that died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that began during his presidency. oh just shut up. are you serious. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Are you really serious. do you know how much islamic mathematicians and scientists have contributed to the world. do you know how many mathematicians were religious? Donald Knuth - do you know who he is? wow he is retarded isn't he, since he is so religious larry wall - he wrote the perl programming language. he is also a devout christian. he is obviously stupid. Charles Hard Townes - yeah he is stupid too issac newton - what the fuck did he ever accomplish Gottfried Leibniz - christian fucking noob Leonhard Euler - religion clearly drove him to doing jack shit with his life too so honestly I must say you have no idea what you are talking about. and blah blah about your gay shit. why the fuck don't they legalize incest and polygamy? whats wrong if I love my sister why can't I fuck her? lets agree that we won't have kids (even though its not that bad). better yet let me have gay sex with my brother. why is this illegal? all you gay rights supporters are fucking hypocrites if you ask me. they say they are supporting an ideal of equality, but they won't stand up for other issues which should be made legal based on the same principals. and btw to all the people saying islam is a dangerous religion. shut the fuck up. talk shit about islam once you have lived with some muslim people, or you are muslim, or have some association with them. not just some shit you hear on tv. and to the people quoting quran translations. first of all, go learn classical arabic before you try and talk about the quran. you reading quran translations is like trying to understand a progamers interview via babel fish. second of all if you look down on islam saying they are not advancing because of their religion, shut the fuck up as well. because they were one of the advanced cultures in science and technology. what fucking numbers are you guys using? english numbers? european numbers? christian numbers? i don't fucking think so. just because the islamic world isn't at the forefront of science and technology doesn't mean its because of their faith or culture that's holding them back. india was one of the most fucking advanced country in the world, let alone asia. infact arabic numbers are really indian numbers with a different script. if you don't know, everything from buddhism, karma, martial arts, trigonometry, shaolin, zen, buddhism kama sutra fuck it the list is way too long - came from indians. they aren't doing as well right now, but is that because of their faith or their culture? fuck no. so stop talking shit about how you think religion is holding people back. people who were very religious have accomplished more in a few years than most of us will accomplish in our whole lifetimes. now go fight for your right to fuck your mom. the fact that it's illegal is ridiculous. Would you say these advances happened because they were religious, though? I think that's what ghostwriter is arguing here, that their religion did not motivate any of these advances which were made in mathematics, science and technology. But I don't know, I'm not ghostwriter, I'm just assuming. Wait to see what he says. His point was that religion and science are incompatible, which is nonsense. They are incompatible, unless by religion you mean picking and choosing which parts you believe so that it doesnt conflict with science. But, if you truly believe any of the popular religions then you hold believes that directly contradict science.
Religion and science as a whole are not completely incompatible. Of course there are various aspects where they have no choice depending on what religion but to clash but you can seriously say that with just about everything. The idea that you can not be religious and believe in science or be a scientist and be religious is a completely ridiculous notion as many aspects of religion and science can coexist with each other. The only real issue between a religion like Christianity and science is the issues with the mainstream scientific thought of how life originated on the earth and the Genesis myth. Christianity in general has driven themselves into a hole by constantly changing their stances in order to worm themselves into "safe" areas throughout history, but we were talking about religion as a whole, not just simply Christianity or other Abrahamic religions or whatever. Just because one of the most prominent religions in the world has some big issues with one aspect of science (disregarding how modern scientific analysis has given evidence for various Catholic relics being bogus; not for convenience but more due to these problems being the Vatican just being idiots rather than it being an issue due to the fundamental Christian beliefs), does not mean that religion and science are incompatible.
On December 02 2009 02:02 old times sake wrote:
I have already made my response to this topic on page 20-21 or so, but I would like to add that koreasilver should not simply come by and say "point X is nonsense." That's not an argument, and it's not like serious, educated authorities don't argue for point X (point X being "religion and science are incompatible", but that's beside the point).
To dismiss a reputable point as nonsense with no other reason given is trolling, flame baiting, and topic derailing. It baits people like me to then ask him to back up this claim, at which point he will probably offer flimsy reasons or try to turn the burden of proof on me. Next, I'm either taking pot shots at his reasons which he can accuse of being semantics, OR I'm offering my own reasons for a position that is completely off topic, OR we bicker over whom the burden of proof is on and who said what. And I'm okay with doing this, but why not do it in a new thread about this very new dispute? Why add "are religion and science incompatible?" to THIS topic, about whether governments should ban minarets?
You can see how this kind of thing would "steal" the topic, so really, hold your tongue until you are willing to research the topic and give reasons for the position on it you take--if you did that you would not make an "Not X, cause it's nonsense"-style argument.
Since when were blanket statements reputable in any way? The divergences from the topic were generally not initiated by me either, I have just simply been replying to whatever statements that have been said in this thread that suggest that religion is the problem.
The discussion of the compatibility of religion and science was also not brought up by me. Beats me why they brought that to the dinner table.
On December 02 2009 01:54 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 01:51 Mastermind wrote:On December 01 2009 13:59 koreasilver wrote:On December 01 2009 13:40 pubbanana wrote:On December 01 2009 13:19 himurakenshin wrote:On December 01 2009 12:43 ghostWriter wrote:On December 01 2009 11:54 Freaky[x] wrote:
I'm not sure if this is right, but I heard that many of the turks in germany are treated like trash and take on the worse jobs because people hate them so much (maybe not hate but they are discriminated against). They are basically lower class citizens. It's hard to have a will to integrate a society when you're not represented on a political level, because as a minority you will be slaves of the upper class. How do you want them to learn german when your government brings them as cheap labor...?
I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time.
Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject)
As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on.
I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining. Religion is a scourge that should be eliminated. Nothing else promotes ignorance, intolerance and blind faith like religion in general does, not just Islam. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Also, take a look at how voters in various states in America are refusing to give gay people the right to get married. Even if you hate gay people, how can you possibly do this? Many people use religion as their justification, claiming that God hates gays or whatever and posting the lines from the Bible that agree with their view. If their beliefs didn't affect other people, then there wouldn't be a problem, but they do. Take stem cell research for example. Why did George W. Bush not fund this? Instead, he went out of his way to oppose research, despite the fact that it would save many lives. I guess cells that can't feel or think are more important than living people. This is especially hypocritical when you consider the number of executions that George W. Bush presided over and the number of soldiers and civilians that died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that began during his presidency. oh just shut up. are you serious. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Are you really serious. do you know how much islamic mathematicians and scientists have contributed to the world. do you know how many mathematicians were religious? Donald Knuth - do you know who he is? wow he is retarded isn't he, since he is so religious larry wall - he wrote the perl programming language. he is also a devout christian. he is obviously stupid. Charles Hard Townes - yeah he is stupid too issac newton - what the fuck did he ever accomplish Gottfried Leibniz - christian fucking noob Leonhard Euler - religion clearly drove him to doing jack shit with his life too so honestly I must say you have no idea what you are talking about. and blah blah about your gay shit. why the fuck don't they legalize incest and polygamy? whats wrong if I love my sister why can't I fuck her? lets agree that we won't have kids (even though its not that bad). better yet let me have gay sex with my brother. why is this illegal? all you gay rights supporters are fucking hypocrites if you ask me. they say they are supporting an ideal of equality, but they won't stand up for other issues which should be made legal based on the same principals. and btw to all the people saying islam is a dangerous religion. shut the fuck up. talk shit about islam once you have lived with some muslim people, or you are muslim, or have some association with them. not just some shit you hear on tv. and to the people quoting quran translations. first of all, go learn classical arabic before you try and talk about the quran. you reading quran translations is like trying to understand a progamers interview via babel fish. second of all if you look down on islam saying they are not advancing because of their religion, shut the fuck up as well. because they were one of the advanced cultures in science and technology. what fucking numbers are you guys using? english numbers? european numbers? christian numbers? i don't fucking think so. just because the islamic world isn't at the forefront of science and technology doesn't mean its because of their faith or culture that's holding them back. india was one of the most fucking advanced country in the world, let alone asia. infact arabic numbers are really indian numbers with a different script. if you don't know, everything from buddhism, karma, martial arts, trigonometry, shaolin, zen, buddhism kama sutra fuck it the list is way too long - came from indians. they aren't doing as well right now, but is that because of their faith or their culture? fuck no. so stop talking shit about how you think religion is holding people back. people who were very religious have accomplished more in a few years than most of us will accomplish in our whole lifetimes. now go fight for your right to fuck your mom. the fact that it's illegal is ridiculous. Would you say these advances happened because they were religious, though? I think that's what ghostwriter is arguing here, that their religion did not motivate any of these advances which were made in mathematics, science and technology. But I don't know, I'm not ghostwriter, I'm just assuming. Wait to see what he says. His point was that religion and science are incompatible, which is nonsense. They are incompatible, unless by religion you mean picking and choosing which parts you believe so that it doesnt conflict with science. But, if you truly believe any of the popular religions then you hold believes that directly contradict science. This is pretty self-evident; it's sad that you had to point this out like this for him. But then again, the unsupported affirmative statements that he makes pretty much speak for themselves
It's sad that you had to be pointed out that the murder of Jews in the Holocaust was an ethnically motivated atrocity, not a religious one?
idk bro.
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I'm just gonna butt in with my 2 cents because I hate when people talk about science and religion being compatible.
They aren't. They can't be. It's one or the other.
I'm not saying you can't be spiritual and a be a scientist, I'm just saying the two will never complement each other.
When evolution was discussed around Darwin's time, it got a lot of flak because it contradicted a big part of what the christian god meant to the religion. Even in recent history, cases are still brought up about teaching evoultion is schools.
but as it gradually becomes clear that there is such a rich amount of fascinating evidence pointing towards evolution, you see people reworking their beliefs around it so they don't sound like cave men.
"oh yeah, well genesis is really more of a metaphor, you know?"
"yeah, all those planets and the fact that were 0.0000000000000000000000001% of the universe, god did all that too -- he can do what ever wants, we can't question God, man."
-_-
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A bunch of people in this thread need to take a history of western philosophy course before posting on the topic again.
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I can't see this doing anything good. If you don't want people stoning women, then ban the stoning of women.. not architecture.
Seriously, it's not like Muslims say "hey guys, I just built this minaret.. LETS HANG SOME HOMOS OFF IT LOL"
and how many people have actually SEEN a minaret? If there's only four in Switzerland, I'm sure not everyone even knows what it is. By the looks of the poster some people probably thought it was a burka.
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On December 02 2009 04:46 eMbrace wrote:
I'm just gonna butt in with my 2 cents because I hate when people talk about science and religion being compatible.
They aren't. They can't be. It's one or the other.
I'm not saying you can't be spiritual and a be a scientist, I'm just saying the two will never complement each other.
When evolution was discussed around Darwin's time, it got a lot of flak because it contradicted a big part of what the christian god meant to the religion. Even in recent history, cases are still brought up about teaching evoultion is schools.
but as it gradually becomes clear that there is such a rich amount of fascinating evidence pointing towards evolution, you see people reworking their beliefs around it so they don't sound like cave men.
"oh yeah, well genesis is really more of a metaphor, you know?"
"yeah, all those planets and the fact that were 0.0000000000000000000000001% of the universe, god did all that too -- he can do what ever wants, we can't question God, man."
-_-
There's a distinction here. science and a literal view of the Bible is definitely NOT compatible. But there definitely is room for both religion and science, depending on what you believe happened before the Big Bang and so on. In fact, there's room for things within modern physics that are compatible with religion, things like Tipler's Omega Point theory. It just depends on how omnipotent you want your God to be.
To be honest I'm not actually religious myself, but I do have respect for those who are. Especially Muslims, because it takes serious dedication to stop what you're doing and pray five times a day. Hell, I don't study physics five times a day.. if my university told me I had to get up at 5:30 in the morning every day and fast for a month and all that other stuff, I'd probably say "screw physics" and be on my way to bible college.
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Of course religion and science are incompatible. If you hold any beliefs preventing you from considering any possibility you might find in your experimentation, you are not practicing science. If you are at all cherry-picking facts, you aren't practicing science. All of the great 'scientists' we mention - the ones that were religious by and large - were very much held back by their beliefs more than anything. Imagine what they could have accomplished if they did not have the barriers of stigma to fight against (both in society and in their own minds).
On December 01 2009 19:41 Foucault wrote:
Pyro, yeah religious people are often viewed like a bit weird here. At the same time we have one of the highest rates of depression in Europe, which may or may not have something to do with us being a secularized country and lacking the comfort from religion.
Removing god is not always positive for people's well-being, although it's the rational thing to do.
I believe you have to take into account the factors of seasonal depression into this, since Sweden is at a higher latitude than much of Europe (and is not Iceland, which seems to be nearly immune to such problems). While religion does 'comfort' a lot of people, non-religion is really only a scary thought if you actually consider religion plausible in the first place.
On December 02 2009 05:46 starfries wrote:
To be honest I'm not actually religious myself, but I do have respect for those who are. Especially Muslims, because it takes serious dedication to stop what you're doing and pray five times a day. Hell, I don't study physics five times a day.. if my university told me I had to get up at 5:30 in the morning every day and fast for a month and all that other stuff, I'd probably say "screw physics" and be on my way to bible college.
This argument is really disingenuous. If you truly believe (or were brought up being told) that there was an afterlife and your life should be led in the best possible fashion in order to please your god, you would pray five times a day as well. This isn't really dedication like studying something five times a day would be - there are great personal stakes involved here. If you give up studying at that particular university because it's too difficult, you have alternatives to still lead a happy life. If they give up praying, they will ruin their chances at a good afterlife (and often their place in society). That is, unless they give up their beliefs altogether, which is probably more difficult to them than the rituals are in the first place.
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On December 02 2009 02:54 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 01:56 Orome wrote:On December 01 2009 16:41 Velr wrote:
Btw: If you think this is a minor topic we could/had to vote on you should check out all the stuff we actually vote about :p. lol yeah, this is one of the most important things we voted on in recent times. The other two federal things last Sunday were a blanket ban on exporting war material (didn't pass) and a really small thing that nobody was interested in and that was going to pass anyway because nobody was really against it. :p i was against it :p
hahaha, why? Are you in the 'Autopartei'? ;p
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 02 2009 03:02 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 01:51 Mastermind wrote:On December 01 2009 13:59 koreasilver wrote:On December 01 2009 13:40 pubbanana wrote:On December 01 2009 13:19 himurakenshin wrote:On December 01 2009 12:43 ghostWriter wrote:On December 01 2009 11:54 Freaky[x] wrote:
I'm not sure if this is right, but I heard that many of the turks in germany are treated like trash and take on the worse jobs because people hate them so much (maybe not hate but they are discriminated against). They are basically lower class citizens. It's hard to have a will to integrate a society when you're not represented on a political level, because as a minority you will be slaves of the upper class. How do you want them to learn german when your government brings them as cheap labor...?
I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time.
Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject)
As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on.
I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining. Religion is a scourge that should be eliminated. Nothing else promotes ignorance, intolerance and blind faith like religion in general does, not just Islam. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Also, take a look at how voters in various states in America are refusing to give gay people the right to get married. Even if you hate gay people, how can you possibly do this? Many people use religion as their justification, claiming that God hates gays or whatever and posting the lines from the Bible that agree with their view. If their beliefs didn't affect other people, then there wouldn't be a problem, but they do. Take stem cell research for example. Why did George W. Bush not fund this? Instead, he went out of his way to oppose research, despite the fact that it would save many lives. I guess cells that can't feel or think are more important than living people. This is especially hypocritical when you consider the number of executions that George W. Bush presided over and the number of soldiers and civilians that died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that began during his presidency. oh just shut up. are you serious. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Are you really serious. do you know how much islamic mathematicians and scientists have contributed to the world. do you know how many mathematicians were religious? Donald Knuth - do you know who he is? wow he is retarded isn't he, since he is so religious larry wall - he wrote the perl programming language. he is also a devout christian. he is obviously stupid. Charles Hard Townes - yeah he is stupid too issac newton - what the fuck did he ever accomplish Gottfried Leibniz - christian fucking noob Leonhard Euler - religion clearly drove him to doing jack shit with his life too so honestly I must say you have no idea what you are talking about. and blah blah about your gay shit. why the fuck don't they legalize incest and polygamy? whats wrong if I love my sister why can't I fuck her? lets agree that we won't have kids (even though its not that bad). better yet let me have gay sex with my brother. why is this illegal? all you gay rights supporters are fucking hypocrites if you ask me. they say they are supporting an ideal of equality, but they won't stand up for other issues which should be made legal based on the same principals. and btw to all the people saying islam is a dangerous religion. shut the fuck up. talk shit about islam once you have lived with some muslim people, or you are muslim, or have some association with them. not just some shit you hear on tv. and to the people quoting quran translations. first of all, go learn classical arabic before you try and talk about the quran. you reading quran translations is like trying to understand a progamers interview via babel fish. second of all if you look down on islam saying they are not advancing because of their religion, shut the fuck up as well. because they were one of the advanced cultures in science and technology. what fucking numbers are you guys using? english numbers? european numbers? christian numbers? i don't fucking think so. just because the islamic world isn't at the forefront of science and technology doesn't mean its because of their faith or culture that's holding them back. india was one of the most fucking advanced country in the world, let alone asia. infact arabic numbers are really indian numbers with a different script. if you don't know, everything from buddhism, karma, martial arts, trigonometry, shaolin, zen, buddhism kama sutra fuck it the list is way too long - came from indians. they aren't doing as well right now, but is that because of their faith or their culture? fuck no. so stop talking shit about how you think religion is holding people back. people who were very religious have accomplished more in a few years than most of us will accomplish in our whole lifetimes. now go fight for your right to fuck your mom. the fact that it's illegal is ridiculous. Would you say these advances happened because they were religious, though? I think that's what ghostwriter is arguing here, that their religion did not motivate any of these advances which were made in mathematics, science and technology. But I don't know, I'm not ghostwriter, I'm just assuming. Wait to see what he says. His point was that religion and science are incompatible, which is nonsense. They are incompatible, unless by religion you mean picking and choosing which parts you believe so that it doesnt conflict with science. But, if you truly believe any of the popular religions then you hold believes that directly contradict science. Religion and science as a whole are not completely incompatible. Of course there are various aspects where they have no choice depending on what religion but to clash but you can seriously say that with just about everything. The idea that you can not be religious and believe in science or be a scientist and be religious is a completely ridiculous notion as many aspects of religion and science can coexist with each other. The only real issue between a religion like Christianity and science is the issues with the mainstream scientific thought of how life originated on the earth and the Genesis myth. Christianity in general has driven themselves into a hole by constantly changing their stances in order to worm themselves into "safe" areas throughout history, but we were talking about religion as a whole, not just simply Christianity or other Abrahamic religions or whatever. Just because one of the most prominent religions in the world has some big issues with one aspect of science (disregarding how modern scientific analysis has given evidence for various Catholic relics being bogus; not for convenience but more due to these problems being the Vatican just being idiots rather than it being an issue due to the fundamental Christian beliefs), does not mean that religion and science are incompatible. Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 02:02 old times sake wrote:
I have already made my response to this topic on page 20-21 or so, but I would like to add that koreasilver should not simply come by and say "point X is nonsense." That's not an argument, and it's not like serious, educated authorities don't argue for point X (point X being "religion and science are incompatible", but that's beside the point).
To dismiss a reputable point as nonsense with no other reason given is trolling, flame baiting, and topic derailing. It baits people like me to then ask him to back up this claim, at which point he will probably offer flimsy reasons or try to turn the burden of proof on me. Next, I'm either taking pot shots at his reasons which he can accuse of being semantics, OR I'm offering my own reasons for a position that is completely off topic, OR we bicker over whom the burden of proof is on and who said what. And I'm okay with doing this, but why not do it in a new thread about this very new dispute? Why add "are religion and science incompatible?" to THIS topic, about whether governments should ban minarets?
You can see how this kind of thing would "steal" the topic, so really, hold your tongue until you are willing to research the topic and give reasons for the position on it you take--if you did that you would not make an "Not X, cause it's nonsense"-style argument. Since when were blanket statements reputable in any way? The divergences from the topic were generally not initiated by me either, I have just simply been replying to whatever statements that have been said in this thread that suggest that religion is the problem. The discussion of the compatibility of religion and science was also not brought up by me. Beats me why they brought that to the dinner table. Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 01:54 ghostWriter wrote:On December 02 2009 01:51 Mastermind wrote:On December 01 2009 13:59 koreasilver wrote:On December 01 2009 13:40 pubbanana wrote:On December 01 2009 13:19 himurakenshin wrote:On December 01 2009 12:43 ghostWriter wrote:On December 01 2009 11:54 Freaky[x] wrote:
I'm not sure if this is right, but I heard that many of the turks in germany are treated like trash and take on the worse jobs because people hate them so much (maybe not hate but they are discriminated against). They are basically lower class citizens. It's hard to have a will to integrate a society when you're not represented on a political level, because as a minority you will be slaves of the upper class. How do you want them to learn german when your government brings them as cheap labor...?
I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time.
Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject)
As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on.
I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining. Religion is a scourge that should be eliminated. Nothing else promotes ignorance, intolerance and blind faith like religion in general does, not just Islam. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Also, take a look at how voters in various states in America are refusing to give gay people the right to get married. Even if you hate gay people, how can you possibly do this? Many people use religion as their justification, claiming that God hates gays or whatever and posting the lines from the Bible that agree with their view. If their beliefs didn't affect other people, then there wouldn't be a problem, but they do. Take stem cell research for example. Why did George W. Bush not fund this? Instead, he went out of his way to oppose research, despite the fact that it would save many lives. I guess cells that can't feel or think are more important than living people. This is especially hypocritical when you consider the number of executions that George W. Bush presided over and the number of soldiers and civilians that died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that began during his presidency. oh just shut up. are you serious. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Are you really serious. do you know how much islamic mathematicians and scientists have contributed to the world. do you know how many mathematicians were religious? Donald Knuth - do you know who he is? wow he is retarded isn't he, since he is so religious larry wall - he wrote the perl programming language. he is also a devout christian. he is obviously stupid. Charles Hard Townes - yeah he is stupid too issac newton - what the fuck did he ever accomplish Gottfried Leibniz - christian fucking noob Leonhard Euler - religion clearly drove him to doing jack shit with his life too so honestly I must say you have no idea what you are talking about. and blah blah about your gay shit. why the fuck don't they legalize incest and polygamy? whats wrong if I love my sister why can't I fuck her? lets agree that we won't have kids (even though its not that bad). better yet let me have gay sex with my brother. why is this illegal? all you gay rights supporters are fucking hypocrites if you ask me. they say they are supporting an ideal of equality, but they won't stand up for other issues which should be made legal based on the same principals. and btw to all the people saying islam is a dangerous religion. shut the fuck up. talk shit about islam once you have lived with some muslim people, or you are muslim, or have some association with them. not just some shit you hear on tv. and to the people quoting quran translations. first of all, go learn classical arabic before you try and talk about the quran. you reading quran translations is like trying to understand a progamers interview via babel fish. second of all if you look down on islam saying they are not advancing because of their religion, shut the fuck up as well. because they were one of the advanced cultures in science and technology. what fucking numbers are you guys using? english numbers? european numbers? christian numbers? i don't fucking think so. just because the islamic world isn't at the forefront of science and technology doesn't mean its because of their faith or culture that's holding them back. india was one of the most fucking advanced country in the world, let alone asia. infact arabic numbers are really indian numbers with a different script. if you don't know, everything from buddhism, karma, martial arts, trigonometry, shaolin, zen, buddhism kama sutra fuck it the list is way too long - came from indians. they aren't doing as well right now, but is that because of their faith or their culture? fuck no. so stop talking shit about how you think religion is holding people back. people who were very religious have accomplished more in a few years than most of us will accomplish in our whole lifetimes. now go fight for your right to fuck your mom. the fact that it's illegal is ridiculous. Would you say these advances happened because they were religious, though? I think that's what ghostwriter is arguing here, that their religion did not motivate any of these advances which were made in mathematics, science and technology. But I don't know, I'm not ghostwriter, I'm just assuming. Wait to see what he says. His point was that religion and science are incompatible, which is nonsense. They are incompatible, unless by religion you mean picking and choosing which parts you believe so that it doesnt conflict with science. But, if you truly believe any of the popular religions then you hold believes that directly contradict science. This is pretty self-evident; it's sad that you had to point this out like this for him. But then again, the unsupported affirmative statements that he makes pretty much speak for themselves It's sad that you had to be pointed out that the murder of Jews in the Holocaust was an ethnically motivated atrocity, not a religious one? idk bro.
hey let's bring up something stupid a million times that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, that was obviously not serious and doesn't have anything to do with the topic because no one who had 9th grade world history or access to Wikipedia could say what I said and actually believe it, although seeing the way you continually parrot your bullshit about religion and science not being at odds, I guess someone can be that stupid. It doesn't make you look better when you continually try to flaunt your basic high school knowledge like you're in academia or some shit nor does it help your argument when I'm obviously way more knowledgeable than you're trying to make me out to be. I just don't take you seriously, especially when you don't back up any of your statements with evidence and I'm sorry that my lack of respect for you or anything you say makes you feel inadequate.
On December 02 2009 05:46 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 04:46 eMbrace wrote:
I'm just gonna butt in with my 2 cents because I hate when people talk about science and religion being compatible.
They aren't. They can't be. It's one or the other.
I'm not saying you can't be spiritual and a be a scientist, I'm just saying the two will never complement each other.
When evolution was discussed around Darwin's time, it got a lot of flak because it contradicted a big part of what the christian god meant to the religion. Even in recent history, cases are still brought up about teaching evoultion is schools.
but as it gradually becomes clear that there is such a rich amount of fascinating evidence pointing towards evolution, you see people reworking their beliefs around it so they don't sound like cave men.
"oh yeah, well genesis is really more of a metaphor, you know?"
"yeah, all those planets and the fact that were 0.0000000000000000000000001% of the universe, god did all that too -- he can do what ever wants, we can't question God, man."
-_-
There's a distinction here. science and a literal view of the Bible is definitely NOT compatible. But there definitely is room for both religion and science, depending on what you believe happened before the Big Bang and so on. In fact, there's room for things within modern physics that are compatible with religion, things like Tipler's Omega Point theory. It just depends on how omnipotent you want your God to be. To be honest I'm not actually religious myself, but I do have respect for those who are. Especially Muslims, because it takes serious dedication to stop what you're doing and pray five times a day. Hell, I don't study physics five times a day.. if my university told me I had to get up at 5:30 in the morning every day and fast for a month and all that other stuff, I'd probably say "screw physics" and be on my way to bible college.
Obviously some things can coexist but the truth is, many people actually take holy books to be the "truth" from the mouth of their god. And just because not everything said in holy books are ridiculous doesn't mean that the rest of the nonsense that they espouse have any merit.
Look at this pm I got:
"well if you don't even believe that Adam and Eve existed then this discussion is over.i have nothing more to say to you..have a great life.see you when i see you."
How can there possibly be an Adam and Eve when they were the first humans to ever live and writing wasn't even invented yet? The story is obviously a metaphor, not a real event. There was no "garden of Eden" and no snake tempting Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. What a ridiculous story and yet this person actually believes it with no evidence, just because it's in some book that he thinks is important.
Also, there's a story in the Old Testament where Joshua apparently made the earth stop rotating, because it says that the sun stopped in the sky or something for some time because of something he did. I forget how the story goes exactly, but it's impossible to be literal truth. How can a man stop the rotation of the Earth? And if it were true, then everyone wouldn't just be stuck in place, everything would keep moving because they would still have the momentum from the Earth's spin. And Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead and curing a blind man with mud? Absolute nonsense. And yet people actually believe it to be literal truth and use the timeline from the Bible to attempt calculate the age of the Earth, while ignoring all scientific evidence which can be repeated and verified. There are even Muslims that are starting to buy into the young Earth 'theory'.
Who cares if they pray 5 times a day, it's not something to be proud of. Why would they need to tell their god about their problems and shit, which he probably doesn't want to hear about anyway, 5 times a day if their god is omniscient? They only do it because they've been told from a young age that they have to do it. I've found that many of my Muslim friends (second generation) actually skip many of the prayers or don't pray at all. If they get up at 5:30, then they get up extra early to think real hard to themselves because scientific experiments have shown that prayer doesn't work. There is no god listening to your prayers. Notice how none of your prayers come true, or if they do, then it was something that would have happened anyway. What a powerful god!
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