Why can't local communities/cities/states/whatever decide on whether or not they accept the construction of a new Minaret? (or for that manner any large building that would change the architecture/citiscape.. what if I am from a protestant sect that constructs similarly-shaped christian buildings..). All this will do is radicalize relations between Muslims and the Swiss. Pretty stupid law. If a community/city doesn't want a minaret, let them decide, rather then passing a law that bans ALL minarets in Switzerland.
On December 01 2009 11:54 Freaky[x] wrote: I'm not sure if this is right, but I heard that many of the turks in germany are treated like trash and take on the worse jobs because people hate them so much (maybe not hate but they are discriminated against). They are basically lower class citizens. It's hard to have a will to integrate a society when you're not represented on a political level, because as a minority you will be slaves of the upper class. How do you want them to learn german when your government brings them as cheap labor...?
I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time.
Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject)
As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on.
I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining.
Religion is a scourge that should be eliminated. Nothing else promotes ignorance, intolerance and blind faith like religion in general does, not just Islam. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Also, take a look at how voters in various states in America are refusing to give gay people the right to get married. Even if you hate gay people, how can you possibly do this? Many people use religion as their justification, claiming that God hates gays or whatever and posting the lines from the Bible that agree with their view. If their beliefs didn't affect other people, then there wouldn't be a problem, but they do. Take stem cell research for example. Why did George W. Bush not fund this? Instead, he went out of his way to oppose research, despite the fact that it would save many lives. I guess cells that can't feel or think are more important than living people. This is especially hypocritical when you consider the number of executions that George W. Bush presided over and the number of soldiers and civilians that died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that began during his presidency.
oh just shut up. are you serious.
Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other.
Are you really serious. do you know how much islamic mathematicians and scientists have contributed to the world. do you know how many mathematicians were religious?
Donald Knuth - do you know who he is? wow he is retarded isn't he, since he is so religious larry wall - he wrote the perl programming language. he is also a devout christian. he is obviously stupid. Charles Hard Townes - yeah he is stupid too issac newton - what the fuck did he ever accomplish Gottfried Leibniz - christian fucking noob Leonhard Euler - religion clearly drove him to doing jack shit with his life too
so honestly I must say you have no idea what you are talking about. and blah blah about your gay shit. why the fuck don't they legalize incest and polygamy? whats wrong if I love my sister why can't I fuck her? lets agree that we won't have kids (even though its not that bad). better yet let me have gay sex with my brother. why is this illegal?
all you gay rights supporters are fucking hypocrites if you ask me. they say they are supporting an ideal of equality, but they won't stand up for other issues which should be made legal based on the same principals.
and btw to all the people saying islam is a dangerous religion. shut the fuck up. talk shit about islam once you have lived with some muslim people, or you are muslim, or have some association with them. not just some shit you hear on tv.
and to the people quoting quran translations. first of all, go learn classical arabic before you try and talk about the quran. you reading quran translations is like trying to understand a progamers interview via babel fish.
second of all if you look down on islam saying they are not advancing because of their religion, shut the fuck up as well. because they were one of the advanced cultures in science and technology. what fucking numbers are you guys using? english numbers? european numbers? christian numbers? i don't fucking think so.
just because the islamic world isn't at the forefront of science and technology doesn't mean its because of their faith or culture that's holding them back. india was one of the most fucking advanced country in the world, let alone asia. infact arabic numbers are really indian numbers with a different script. if you don't know, everything from buddhism, karma, martial arts, trigonometry, shaolin, zen, buddhism kama sutra fuck it the list is way too long - came from indians. they aren't doing as well right now, but is that because of their faith or their culture? fuck no.
so stop talking shit about how you think religion is holding people back. people who were very religious have accomplished more in a few years than most of us will accomplish in our whole lifetimes.
now go fight for your right to fuck your mom. the fact that it's illegal is ridiculous.
Would you say these advances happened because they were religious, though? I think that's what ghostwriter is arguing here, that their religion did not motivate any of these advances which were made in mathematics, science and technology.
But I don't know, I'm not ghostwriter, I'm just assuming. Wait to see what he says.
His point was that religion and science are incompatible, which is nonsense.
On December 01 2009 11:54 Freaky[x] wrote: I'm not sure if this is right, but I heard that many of the turks in germany are treated like trash and take on the worse jobs because people hate them so much (maybe not hate but they are discriminated against). They are basically lower class citizens. It's hard to have a will to integrate a society when you're not represented on a political level, because as a minority you will be slaves of the upper class. How do you want them to learn german when your government brings them as cheap labor...?
I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time.
Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject)
As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on.
I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining.
Religion is a scourge that should be eliminated. Nothing else promotes ignorance, intolerance and blind faith like religion in general does, not just Islam. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Also, take a look at how voters in various states in America are refusing to give gay people the right to get married. Even if you hate gay people, how can you possibly do this? Many people use religion as their justification, claiming that God hates gays or whatever and posting the lines from the Bible that agree with their view. If their beliefs didn't affect other people, then there wouldn't be a problem, but they do. Take stem cell research for example. Why did George W. Bush not fund this? Instead, he went out of his way to oppose research, despite the fact that it would save many lives. I guess cells that can't feel or think are more important than living people. This is especially hypocritical when you consider the number of executions that George W. Bush presided over and the number of soldiers and civilians that died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that began during his presidency.
Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other.
Are you really serious. do you know how much islamic mathematicians and scientists have contributed to the world. do you know how many mathematicians were religious?
Donald Knuth - do you know who he is? wow he is retarded isn't he, since he is so religious larry wall - he wrote the perl programming language. he is also a devout christian. he is obviously stupid. Charles Hard Townes - yeah he is stupid too issac newton - what the fuck did he ever accomplish Gottfried Leibniz - christian fucking noob Leonhard Euler - religion clearly drove him to doing jack shit with his life too
so honestly I must say you have no idea what you are talking about. and blah blah about your gay shit. why the fuck don't they legalize incest and polygamy? whats wrong if I love my sister why can't I fuck her? lets agree that we won't have kids (even though its not that bad). better yet let me have gay sex with my brother. why is this illegal?
all you gay rights supporters are fucking hypocrites if you ask me. they say they are supporting an ideal of equality, but they won't stand up for other issues which should be made legal based on the same principals.
and btw to all the people saying islam is a dangerous religion. shut the fuck up. talk shit about islam once you have lived with some muslim people, or you are muslim, or have some association with them. not just some shit you hear on tv.
and to the people quoting quran translations. first of all, go learn classical arabic before you try and talk about the quran. you reading quran translations is like trying to understand a progamers interview via babel fish.
second of all if you look down on islam saying they are not advancing because of their religion, shut the fuck up as well. because they were one of the advanced cultures in science and technology. what fucking numbers are you guys using? english numbers? european numbers? christian numbers? i don't fucking think so.
just because the islamic world isn't at the forefront of science and technology doesn't mean its because of their faith or culture that's holding them back. india was one of the most fucking advanced country in the world, let alone asia. infact arabic numbers are really indian numbers with a different script. if you don't know, everything from buddhism, karma, martial arts, trigonometry, shaolin, zen, buddhism kama sutra fuck it the list is way too long - came from indians. they aren't doing as well right now, but is that because of their faith or their culture? fuck no.
so stop talking shit about how you think religion is holding people back. people who were very religious have accomplished more in a few years than most of us will accomplish in our whole lifetimes.
now go fight for your right to fuck your mom. the fact that it's illegal is ridiculous.
Sure thing broseph, let me just go learn an entire language so that I can read an ancient book in its original language and learn why I should hate gays as much as you do.
On December 01 2009 11:54 Freaky[x] wrote: I'm not sure if this is right, but I heard that many of the turks in germany are treated like trash and take on the worse jobs because people hate them so much (maybe not hate but they are discriminated against). They are basically lower class citizens. It's hard to have a will to integrate a society when you're not represented on a political level, because as a minority you will be slaves of the upper class. How do you want them to learn german when your government brings them as cheap labor...?
I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time.
Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject)
As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on.
I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining.
Religion is a scourge that should be eliminated. Nothing else promotes ignorance, intolerance and blind faith like religion in general does, not just Islam. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Also, take a look at how voters in various states in America are refusing to give gay people the right to get married. Even if you hate gay people, how can you possibly do this? Many people use religion as their justification, claiming that God hates gays or whatever and posting the lines from the Bible that agree with their view. If their beliefs didn't affect other people, then there wouldn't be a problem, but they do. Take stem cell research for example. Why did George W. Bush not fund this? Instead, he went out of his way to oppose research, despite the fact that it would save many lives. I guess cells that can't feel or think are more important than living people. This is especially hypocritical when you consider the number of executions that George W. Bush presided over and the number of soldiers and civilians that died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that began during his presidency.
oh just shut up. are you serious.
Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other.
Are you really serious. do you know how much islamic mathematicians and scientists have contributed to the world. do you know how many mathematicians were religious?
Donald Knuth - do you know who he is? wow he is retarded isn't he, since he is so religious larry wall - he wrote the perl programming language. he is also a devout christian. he is obviously stupid. Charles Hard Townes - yeah he is stupid too issac newton - what the fuck did he ever accomplish Gottfried Leibniz - christian fucking noob Leonhard Euler - religion clearly drove him to doing jack shit with his life too
so honestly I must say you have no idea what you are talking about. and blah blah about your gay shit. why the fuck don't they legalize incest and polygamy? whats wrong if I love my sister why can't I fuck her? lets agree that we won't have kids (even though its not that bad). better yet let me have gay sex with my brother. why is this illegal?
all you gay rights supporters are fucking hypocrites if you ask me. they say they are supporting an ideal of equality, but they won't stand up for other issues which should be made legal based on the same principals.
and btw to all the people saying islam is a dangerous religion. shut the fuck up. talk shit about islam once you have lived with some muslim people, or you are muslim, or have some association with them. not just some shit you hear on tv.
and to the people quoting quran translations. first of all, go learn classical arabic before you try and talk about the quran. you reading quran translations is like trying to understand a progamers interview via babel fish.
second of all if you look down on islam saying they are not advancing because of their religion, shut the fuck up as well. because they were one of the advanced cultures in science and technology. what fucking numbers are you guys using? english numbers? european numbers? christian numbers? i don't fucking think so.
just because the islamic world isn't at the forefront of science and technology doesn't mean its because of their faith or culture that's holding them back. india was one of the most fucking advanced country in the world, let alone asia. infact arabic numbers are really indian numbers with a different script. if you don't know, everything from buddhism, karma, martial arts, trigonometry, shaolin, zen, buddhism kama sutra fuck it the list is way too long - came from indians. they aren't doing as well right now, but is that because of their faith or their culture? fuck no.
so stop talking shit about how you think religion is holding people back. people who were very religious have accomplished more in a few years than most of us will accomplish in our whole lifetimes.
now go fight for your right to fuck your mom. the fact that it's illegal is ridiculous.
Would you say these advances happened because they were religious, though? I think that's what ghostwriter is arguing here, that their religion did not motivate any of these advances which were made in mathematics, science and technology.
But I don't know, I'm not ghostwriter, I'm just assuming. Wait to see what he says.
I'm not saying that these advances happened because they were religious. It is possible, but it's impossible for us to tell. What I'm saying in that point is that the fact that they were religious didn't seem to hinder their progress of science and technology, what ghostWriter and many other people in this thread are trying to state.
And note the people that I mentioned in the thread were actively devout religious people, who in fact often related religion to their work. I'm not talking about people who just happened to be religious and did something.
On December 01 2009 11:54 Freaky[x] wrote: I'm not sure if this is right, but I heard that many of the turks in germany are treated like trash and take on the worse jobs because people hate them so much (maybe not hate but they are discriminated against). They are basically lower class citizens. It's hard to have a will to integrate a society when you're not represented on a political level, because as a minority you will be slaves of the upper class. How do you want them to learn german when your government brings them as cheap labor...?
I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time.
Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject)
As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on.
I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining.
Religion is a scourge that should be eliminated. Nothing else promotes ignorance, intolerance and blind faith like religion in general does, not just Islam. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Also, take a look at how voters in various states in America are refusing to give gay people the right to get married. Even if you hate gay people, how can you possibly do this? Many people use religion as their justification, claiming that God hates gays or whatever and posting the lines from the Bible that agree with their view. If their beliefs didn't affect other people, then there wouldn't be a problem, but they do. Take stem cell research for example. Why did George W. Bush not fund this? Instead, he went out of his way to oppose research, despite the fact that it would save many lives. I guess cells that can't feel or think are more important than living people. This is especially hypocritical when you consider the number of executions that George W. Bush presided over and the number of soldiers and civilians that died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that began during his presidency.
oh just shut up. are you serious.
Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other.
Are you really serious. do you know how much islamic mathematicians and scientists have contributed to the world. do you know how many mathematicians were religious?
Donald Knuth - do you know who he is? wow he is retarded isn't he, since he is so religious larry wall - he wrote the perl programming language. he is also a devout christian. he is obviously stupid. Charles Hard Townes - yeah he is stupid too issac newton - what the fuck did he ever accomplish Gottfried Leibniz - christian fucking noob Leonhard Euler - religion clearly drove him to doing jack shit with his life too
so honestly I must say you have no idea what you are talking about. and blah blah about your gay shit. why the fuck don't they legalize incest and polygamy? whats wrong if I love my sister why can't I fuck her? lets agree that we won't have kids (even though its not that bad). better yet let me have gay sex with my brother. why is this illegal?
all you gay rights supporters are fucking hypocrites if you ask me. they say they are supporting an ideal of equality, but they won't stand up for other issues which should be made legal based on the same principals.
and btw to all the people saying islam is a dangerous religion. shut the fuck up. talk shit about islam once you have lived with some muslim people, or you are muslim, or have some association with them. not just some shit you hear on tv.
and to the people quoting quran translations. first of all, go learn classical arabic before you try and talk about the quran. you reading quran translations is like trying to understand a progamers interview via babel fish.
second of all if you look down on islam saying they are not advancing because of their religion, shut the fuck up as well. because they were one of the advanced cultures in science and technology. what fucking numbers are you guys using? english numbers? european numbers? christian numbers? i don't fucking think so.
just because the islamic world isn't at the forefront of science and technology doesn't mean its because of their faith or culture that's holding them back. india was one of the most fucking advanced country in the world, let alone asia. infact arabic numbers are really indian numbers with a different script. if you don't know, everything from buddhism, karma, martial arts, trigonometry, shaolin, zen, buddhism kama sutra fuck it the list is way too long - came from indians. they aren't doing as well right now, but is that because of their faith or their culture? fuck no.
so stop talking shit about how you think religion is holding people back. people who were very religious have accomplished more in a few years than most of us will accomplish in our whole lifetimes.
now go fight for your right to fuck your mom. the fact that it's illegal is ridiculous.
Sure thing broseph, let me just go learn an entire language so that I can read an ancient book in its original language and learn why I should hate gays as much as you do.
hey man, actually I don't hate gays, and i'm not muslim myself. what i'm saying is that you can't start analyzing islamic scripture based off of translations. a translation of the quran is not even considered the "holy quran", this is not the same with the bible, where translations are still considered to be more or less canon.
ancient arabic is apparently is not that easy to translate to english. the quran is written very poetically, and as you all may know poetry is one of the hardest things to translate. additionally context is very important. you can see a bunch of youtube videos showing how people take excerpts of speeches out of context and string them together to create absolutely ridiculous shit.
On December 01 2009 11:54 Freaky[x] wrote: I'm not sure if this is right, but I heard that many of the turks in germany are treated like trash and take on the worse jobs because people hate them so much (maybe not hate but they are discriminated against). They are basically lower class citizens. It's hard to have a will to integrate a society when you're not represented on a political level, because as a minority you will be slaves of the upper class. How do you want them to learn german when your government brings them as cheap labor...?
I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time.
Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject)
As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on.
I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining.
Religion is a scourge that should be eliminated. Nothing else promotes ignorance, intolerance and blind faith like religion in general does, not just Islam. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Also, take a look at how voters in various states in America are refusing to give gay people the right to get married. Even if you hate gay people, how can you possibly do this? Many people use religion as their justification, claiming that God hates gays or whatever and posting the lines from the Bible that agree with their view. If their beliefs didn't affect other people, then there wouldn't be a problem, but they do. Take stem cell research for example. Why did George W. Bush not fund this? Instead, he went out of his way to oppose research, despite the fact that it would save many lives. I guess cells that can't feel or think are more important than living people. This is especially hypocritical when you consider the number of executions that George W. Bush presided over and the number of soldiers and civilians that died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that began during his presidency.
Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other.
Are you really serious. do you know how much islamic mathematicians and scientists have contributed to the world. do you know how many mathematicians were religious?
Donald Knuth - do you know who he is? wow he is retarded isn't he, since he is so religious larry wall - he wrote the perl programming language. he is also a devout christian. he is obviously stupid. Charles Hard Townes - yeah he is stupid too issac newton - what the fuck did he ever accomplish Gottfried Leibniz - christian fucking noob Leonhard Euler - religion clearly drove him to doing jack shit with his life too
so honestly I must say you have no idea what you are talking about. and blah blah about your gay shit. why the fuck don't they legalize incest and polygamy? whats wrong if I love my sister why can't I fuck her? lets agree that we won't have kids (even though its not that bad). better yet let me have gay sex with my brother. why is this illegal?
all you gay rights supporters are fucking hypocrites if you ask me. they say they are supporting an ideal of equality, but they won't stand up for other issues which should be made legal based on the same principals.
and btw to all the people saying islam is a dangerous religion. shut the fuck up. talk shit about islam once you have lived with some muslim people, or you are muslim, or have some association with them. not just some shit you hear on tv.
and to the people quoting quran translations. first of all, go learn classical arabic before you try and talk about the quran. you reading quran translations is like trying to understand a progamers interview via babel fish.
second of all if you look down on islam saying they are not advancing because of their religion, shut the fuck up as well. because they were one of the advanced cultures in science and technology. what fucking numbers are you guys using? english numbers? european numbers? christian numbers? i don't fucking think so.
just because the islamic world isn't at the forefront of science and technology doesn't mean its because of their faith or culture that's holding them back. india was one of the most fucking advanced country in the world, let alone asia. infact arabic numbers are really indian numbers with a different script. if you don't know, everything from buddhism, karma, martial arts, trigonometry, shaolin, zen, buddhism kama sutra fuck it the list is way too long - came from indians. they aren't doing as well right now, but is that because of their faith or their culture? fuck no.
so stop talking shit about how you think religion is holding people back. people who were very religious have accomplished more in a few years than most of us will accomplish in our whole lifetimes.
now go fight for your right to fuck your mom. the fact that it's illegal is ridiculous.
You bring up some good points, even if they tend to be strawmen that stray away from the main issues. But their religion didn't contribute to their intelligence or their contributions. I would say that they were able to make their contributions despite their religion. I can see why people would be religious, but I disagree with it. But that's the thing about religion. People are brain washed from a young age to accept a worldview that has no evidence whatsoever. I feel that all the time that Newton spent analyzing the bible would have been better spent on thinking about and improving the theory of gravity or whatever. Also, in the past, the church was much more powerful than it is now. The church made up a huge part of people's lives, it's not like today's world in which people are more willing to analyze, think critically and decide for themselves. You really can't compare different situations in times that are separated by centuries, because they are radically different. People may claim to believe in a religion, just because it's socially acceptable (or even required) to do so, even if they don't accept the basic tenets of the religion.
Why are you so against incest and polygamy? You do know that there are examples in the Bible of incest, although I can't think of anything that has to do with polygamy. Then again, the Mormons believe (believed?) in polygamy. Truthfully, I think they are wrong and I wouldn't do either, but in theory at least, I feel that these are taboos because of societal pressures and because of the inherent problems involved with them. I also disagree with gay behavior, I think that it's a bit pointless since it doesn't lead to procreation, but then again, neither does anal or oral sex, or even sex with a condom on. Then again, this idea fundamentally contradicts with the ideals of freedom and equality that this country was built on and that I believe in, despite its inherent hypocrisies when it was written. We probably developed an aversion to incest as we saw the genetic problems (although back then, they weren't aware of genetics of course) that were associated with incestful relationships and that's probably where that came from. Many people believe in the right to have polygamous relationships, no matter what you may think about it Please don't create somewhat unrelated strawmen and then bash them as if they were positions that I took, just to be sensationalist.
I have had several Muslim friends in both high school and college and they were more or less all fine, decent people, not that this matters. I also realize that what the media shows me may be skewed to be sensationalist, but it's not like Fox News went out and put signs in the hands of people that say "Death to America" just to strike fear into the hearts of Americans. They are obviously selective about what they show, but they are just the middlemen and don't go out and create the behaviors that they record. Comparing koran translations to babelfish is ridiculous. I'm sure people worked hard translating the Koran into different languages. And if anything that's an argument in my favor. Not that I believe in anything written in these so called holy books, but how do you know that something wasn't lost in translation when the angel Gabriel supposedly told Mohammed what to write? In any case, why should I learn a language just to read a book that I know isn't the actual word of God anyway?
Koreans have actually used Chinese numbers and they developed their own system as well, not that having arabic numbers (that originated in India actually, long before Islam even came about)[edit]sorry I didn't see that you said this already] being used makes a difference to the argument at hand. The Romans had their numbers too as well as their own gods. Why not believe in Jupiter and Neptune, along with Allah?
By the way, saying fuck in every sentence doesn't help you get your point across, you just look immature and unnecessarily abrasive. It's not difficult to argue in a civilized manner without telling people that you disagree with to "shut up" and imply that they should "fuck your mother".
On November 30 2009 10:14 InToTheWannaB wrote: I'm shocked so many people in this thread seem to believe this is ok. How can anyone be ok with a law the clearly persecutes a religious group? I understand not be a fan of a religion, but no one gets to decide whats right for other people. You can't make it hard for them to practice there beliefs because you dislike them. I thought all western nations had adopted religious freedom long ago.
Bro, do we live in the same country?
That's what governments do...they decide what's RIGHT FOR YOU. There is no real reason for Marijuana to be illegal for instance but it sure as hell is. That's the government making a decision FOR ME on whether or not I can put something INTO MY OWN BODY.
I always found it strange that religious persecution was always met with such a stark upheaval when other ideas like homosexuality rights and abortion rights don't get anywhere near the same attention.
I don't think anybody in any thread I have read in the past 2 years on teamliquid has angered me as much as Ghostwriter has in this thread. Extremists of any kind are a problem to man kind, especially the atheist ones. They're the one's who piss me off the most because they're oblivious to the sad irony that they are just as devoted to atheism and 'science' as most religious extremest are to their respective god(s). Stop trying to see the world through your tainted 'enlightened' lens and actually learn about religions and understand them before you criticism them as evil and a plague on the world.
Also, Koreasilver is right. Take a goddamn logic course. Don't cite your opponent as using strawmans and then go to use them yourself. Learn to be less extremist, and maybe people will actually listen to your arguments, and maybe even like you.
On December 01 2009 14:47 Athos wrote: I don't think anybody in any thread I have read in the past 2 years on teamliquid has angered me as much as Ghostwriter has in this thread. Extremists of any kind are a problem to man kind, especially the atheist ones. They're the one's who piss me off the most because they're oblivious to the sad irony that they are just as devoted to atheism and 'science' as most religious extremest are to their respective god(s). Stop trying to see the world through your tainted 'enlightened' lens and actually learn about religions and understand them before you criticism them as evil and a plague on the world.
Also, Koreasilver is right. Take a goddamn logic course. Don't cite your opponent as using strawmans and then go to use them yourself. Learn to be less extremist, and maybe people will actually listen to your arguments, and maybe even like you.
Guess what? I don't care if you like me or not.
In any case, I was a practicing, believing Christian until like two weeks ago. I attend a Catholic school. I went to church at least twice a week and I am familiar with most, if not all of the stories of the Bible taught in church. But I guess I need to go learn about it before I criticize it, because I obviously can't use my eyes and brain to see and understand the evils that religion propagates in the world. You don't need to touch a hot stove to know that it will burn the shit out of your hand.
The difference between science and religion is that religion falsely claims to know and explain truth, while science actively goes to experiment to try to explain phenomena. Religion is the lazy way out: "Why bother learning anything, it's obvious that God did it and that's good enough for me". Atheists are a problem how? Sorry for trying to open your eyes to the fact that religion in general makes no sense and that people using religion to justify intrusions on other people's rights is wrong.
I am intimately familiar with Christianity, pretty good with Buddhism and I know a bit about Judaism, Islam, Roman, Hindu, Greek religions etc. Don't tell me what I know or don't know. tainted enlightened lens my ass
On December 01 2009 11:54 Freaky[x] wrote: I'm not sure if this is right, but I heard that many of the turks in germany are treated like trash and take on the worse jobs because people hate them so much (maybe not hate but they are discriminated against). They are basically lower class citizens. It's hard to have a will to integrate a society when you're not represented on a political level, because as a minority you will be slaves of the upper class. How do you want them to learn german when your government brings them as cheap labor...?
I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time.
Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject)
As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on.
I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining.
Religion is a scourge that should be eliminated. Nothing else promotes ignorance, intolerance and blind faith like religion in general does, not just Islam. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Also, take a look at how voters in various states in America are refusing to give gay people the right to get married. Even if you hate gay people, how can you possibly do this? Many people use religion as their justification, claiming that God hates gays or whatever and posting the lines from the Bible that agree with their view. If their beliefs didn't affect other people, then there wouldn't be a problem, but they do. Take stem cell research for example. Why did George W. Bush not fund this? Instead, he went out of his way to oppose research, despite the fact that it would save many lives. I guess cells that can't feel or think are more important than living people. This is especially hypocritical when you consider the number of executions that George W. Bush presided over and the number of soldiers and civilians that died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that began during his presidency.
oh just shut up. are you serious.
Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other.
Are you really serious. do you know how much islamic mathematicians and scientists have contributed to the world. do you know how many mathematicians were religious?
Donald Knuth - do you know who he is? wow he is retarded isn't he, since he is so religious larry wall - he wrote the perl programming language. he is also a devout christian. he is obviously stupid. Charles Hard Townes - yeah he is stupid too issac newton - what the fuck did he ever accomplish Gottfried Leibniz - christian fucking noob Leonhard Euler - religion clearly drove him to doing jack shit with his life too
so honestly I must say you have no idea what you are talking about. and blah blah about your gay shit. why the fuck don't they legalize incest and polygamy? whats wrong if I love my sister why can't I fuck her? lets agree that we won't have kids (even though its not that bad). better yet let me have gay sex with my brother. why is this illegal?
all you gay rights supporters are fucking hypocrites if you ask me. they say they are supporting an ideal of equality, but they won't stand up for other issues which should be made legal based on the same principals.
and btw to all the people saying islam is a dangerous religion. shut the fuck up. talk shit about islam once you have lived with some muslim people, or you are muslim, or have some association with them. not just some shit you hear on tv.
and to the people quoting quran translations. first of all, go learn classical arabic before you try and talk about the quran. you reading quran translations is like trying to understand a progamers interview via babel fish.
second of all if you look down on islam saying they are not advancing because of their religion, shut the fuck up as well. because they were one of the advanced cultures in science and technology. what fucking numbers are you guys using? english numbers? european numbers? christian numbers? i don't fucking think so.
just because the islamic world isn't at the forefront of science and technology doesn't mean its because of their faith or culture that's holding them back. india was one of the most fucking advanced country in the world, let alone asia. infact arabic numbers are really indian numbers with a different script. if you don't know, everything from buddhism, karma, martial arts, trigonometry, shaolin, zen, buddhism kama sutra fuck it the list is way too long - came from indians. they aren't doing as well right now, but is that because of their faith or their culture? fuck no.
so stop talking shit about how you think religion is holding people back. people who were very religious have accomplished more in a few years than most of us will accomplish in our whole lifetimes.
now go fight for your right to fuck your mom. the fact that it's illegal is ridiculous.
You bring up some good points, even if they tend to be strawmen that stray away from the main issues. But their religion didn't contribute to their intelligence or their contributions. I would say that they were able to make their contributions despite their religion. I can see why people would be religious, but I disagree with it. But that's the thing about religion. People are brain washed from a young age to accept a worldview that has no evidence whatsoever. I feel that all the time that Newton spent analyzing the bible would have been better spent on thinking about and improving the theory of gravity or whatever. Also, in the past, the church was much more powerful than it is now. The church made up a huge part of people's lives, it's not like today's world in which people are more willing to analyze, think critically and decide for themselves. You really can't compare different situations in times that are separated by centuries, because they are radically different. People may claim to believe in a religion, just because it's socially acceptable (or even required) to do so, even if they don't accept the basic tenets of the religion.
Why are you so against incest and polygamy? You do know that there are examples in the Bible of incest, although I can't think of anything that has to do with polygamy. Then again, the Mormons believe (believed?) in polygamy. Truthfully, I think they are wrong and I wouldn't do either, but in theory at least, I feel that these are taboos because of societal pressures and because of the inherent problems involved with them. I also disagree with gay behavior, I think that it's a bit pointless since it doesn't lead to procreation, but then again, neither does anal or oral sex, or even sex with a condom on. Then again, this idea fundamentally contradicts with the ideals of freedom and equality that this country was built on and that I believe in, despite its inherent hypocrisies when it was written. We probably developed an aversion to incest as we saw the genetic problems (although back then, they weren't aware of genetics of course) that were associated with incestful relationships and that's probably where that came from. Many people believe in the right to have polygamous relationships, no matter what you may think about it Please don't create somewhat unrelated strawmen and then bash them as if they were positions that I took, just to be sensationalist.
I have had several Muslim friends in both high school and college and they were more or less all fine, decent people, not that this matters. I also realize that what the media shows me may be skewed to be sensationalist, but it's not like Fox News went out and put signs in the hands of people that say "Death to America" just to strike fear into the hearts of Americans. They are obviously selective about what they show, but they are just the middlemen and don't go out and create the behaviors that they record. Comparing koran translations to babelfish is ridiculous. I'm sure people worked hard translating the Koran into different languages. And if anything that's an argument in my favor. Not that I believe in anything written in these so called holy books, but how do you know that something wasn't lost in translation when the angel Gabriel supposedly told Mohammed what to write? In any case, why should I learn a language just to read a book that I know isn't the actual word of God anyway?
Koreans have actually used Chinese numbers and they developed their own system as well, not that having arabic numbers (that originated in India actually, long before Islam even came about)[edit]sorry I didn't see that you said this already] being used makes a difference to the argument at hand. The Romans had their numbers too as well as their own gods. Why not believe in Jupiter and Neptune, along with Allah?
By the way, saying fuck in every sentence doesn't help you get your point across, you just look immature and unnecessarily abrasive. It's not difficult to argue in a civilized manner without telling people that you disagree with to "shut up" and imply that they should "fuck your mother".
I would just like to say thanks for responding to my post in a well mannered manner I agree with you that my post was abrasive; it was actually intentional, but I do again thank you for a gm response oh also I wasn't saying to "go fuck your mom". I was more like trying to imply that people who fight for gay rights should also fight for the right to "fuck their mother" or incest, which is also illegal, but under the same pretenses, should be made legal.
My response was why not? I stand by my principles and I believe that what people want to do in their bedrooms is not something that other people should concern themselves with. Just because society disagrees with it, there are laws against it and people think that their religion is against it, doesn't mean that these people have the right to go and dictate to other people what behaviors they can or cannot do, especially if those behaviors don't infringe on the rights of others. This is not to say that I agree with these behaviors, nor would I do them myself.
I looked at all three of your links (through Google translator), but I couldn't find a single figure on what percentage of second and/or third generation descendants of immigrants lack proficiency in German. They mostly talked about problems with immigrants, and even then, there was often a lack numbers. I found one study that claimed 2/3rd of second generation descendants tested in the 4th year had problems with reading, although I couldn't find such a figure for native-born children to compare to. Still quite a high number for any first-world country though, so I guess your claims have some merit.
Still, banning minarets is just reactionary backlash that won't accomplish anything; it doesn't do anything concrete, but what it does do is send a message that other cultures aren't welcome. For a country struggling to integrate immigrants, this is very counterproductive. You might as well ban crosses in hopes that people will stop being Christian.
On December 01 2009 13:57 ultramagnetics wrote: Why can't local communities/cities/states/whatever decide on whether or not they accept the construction of a new Minaret? (or for that manner any large building that would change the architecture/citiscape.. what if I am from a protestant sect that constructs similarly-shaped christian buildings..). All this will do is radicalize relations between Muslims and the Swiss. Pretty stupid law. If a community/city doesn't want a minaret, let them decide, rather then passing a law that bans ALL minarets in Switzerland.
On December 01 2009 11:54 Freaky[x] wrote: I'm not sure if this is right, but I heard that many of the turks in germany are treated like trash and take on the worse jobs because people hate them so much (maybe not hate but they are discriminated against). They are basically lower class citizens. It's hard to have a will to integrate a society when you're not represented on a political level, because as a minority you will be slaves of the upper class. How do you want them to learn german when your government brings them as cheap labor...?
I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time.
Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject)
As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on.
I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining.
Religion is a scourge that should be eliminated. Nothing else promotes ignorance, intolerance and blind faith like religion in general does, not just Islam. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Also, take a look at how voters in various states in America are refusing to give gay people the right to get married. Even if you hate gay people, how can you possibly do this? Many people use religion as their justification, claiming that God hates gays or whatever and posting the lines from the Bible that agree with their view. If their beliefs didn't affect other people, then there wouldn't be a problem, but they do. Take stem cell research for example. Why did George W. Bush not fund this? Instead, he went out of his way to oppose research, despite the fact that it would save many lives. I guess cells that can't feel or think are more important than living people. This is especially hypocritical when you consider the number of executions that George W. Bush presided over and the number of soldiers and civilians that died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that began during his presidency.
oh just shut up. are you serious.
Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other.
Are you really serious. do you know how much islamic mathematicians and scientists have contributed to the world. do you know how many mathematicians were religious?
Donald Knuth - do you know who he is? wow he is retarded isn't he, since he is so religious larry wall - he wrote the perl programming language. he is also a devout christian. he is obviously stupid. Charles Hard Townes - yeah he is stupid too issac newton - what the fuck did he ever accomplish Gottfried Leibniz - christian fucking noob Leonhard Euler - religion clearly drove him to doing jack shit with his life too
so honestly I must say you have no idea what you are talking about. and blah blah about your gay shit. why the fuck don't they legalize incest and polygamy? whats wrong if I love my sister why can't I fuck her? lets agree that we won't have kids (even though its not that bad). better yet let me have gay sex with my brother. why is this illegal?
all you gay rights supporters are fucking hypocrites if you ask me. they say they are supporting an ideal of equality, but they won't stand up for other issues which should be made legal based on the same principals.
and btw to all the people saying islam is a dangerous religion. shut the fuck up. talk shit about islam once you have lived with some muslim people, or you are muslim, or have some association with them. not just some shit you hear on tv.
and to the people quoting quran translations. first of all, go learn classical arabic before you try and talk about the quran. you reading quran translations is like trying to understand a progamers interview via babel fish.
second of all if you look down on islam saying they are not advancing because of their religion, shut the fuck up as well. because they were one of the advanced cultures in science and technology. what fucking numbers are you guys using? english numbers? european numbers? christian numbers? i don't fucking think so.
just because the islamic world isn't at the forefront of science and technology doesn't mean its because of their faith or culture that's holding them back. india was one of the most fucking advanced country in the world, let alone asia. infact arabic numbers are really indian numbers with a different script. if you don't know, everything from buddhism, karma, martial arts, trigonometry, shaolin, zen, buddhism kama sutra fuck it the list is way too long - came from indians. they aren't doing as well right now, but is that because of their faith or their culture? fuck no.
so stop talking shit about how you think religion is holding people back. people who were very religious have accomplished more in a few years than most of us will accomplish in our whole lifetimes.
now go fight for your right to fuck your mom. the fact that it's illegal is ridiculous.
You bring up some good points, even if they tend to be strawmen that stray away from the main issues. But their religion didn't contribute to their intelligence or their contributions. I would say that they were able to make their contributions despite their religion. I can see why people would be religious, but I disagree with it. But that's the thing about religion. People are brain washed from a young age to accept a worldview that has no evidence whatsoever. I feel that all the time that Newton spent analyzing the bible would have been better spent on thinking about and improving the theory of gravity or whatever. Also, in the past, the church was much more powerful than it is now. The church made up a huge part of people's lives, it's not like today's world in which people are more willing to analyze, think critically and decide for themselves. You really can't compare different situations in times that are separated by centuries, because they are radically different. People may claim to believe in a religion, just because it's socially acceptable (or even required) to do so, even if they don't accept the basic tenets of the religion.
Why are you so against incest and polygamy? You do know that there are examples in the Bible of incest, although I can't think of anything that has to do with polygamy. Then again, the Mormons believe (believed?) in polygamy. Truthfully, I think they are wrong and I wouldn't do either, but in theory at least, I feel that these are taboos because of societal pressures and because of the inherent problems involved with them. I also disagree with gay behavior, I think that it's a bit pointless since it doesn't lead to procreation, but then again, neither does anal or oral sex, or even sex with a condom on. Then again, this idea fundamentally contradicts with the ideals of freedom and equality that this country was built on and that I believe in, despite its inherent hypocrisies when it was written. We probably developed an aversion to incest as we saw the genetic problems (although back then, they weren't aware of genetics of course) that were associated with incestful relationships and that's probably where that came from. Many people believe in the right to have polygamous relationships, no matter what you may think about it Please don't create somewhat unrelated strawmen and then bash them as if they were positions that I took, just to be sensationalist.
I have had several Muslim friends in both high school and college and they were more or less all fine, decent people, not that this matters. I also realize that what the media shows me may be skewed to be sensationalist, but it's not like Fox News went out and put signs in the hands of people that say "Death to America" just to strike fear into the hearts of Americans. They are obviously selective about what they show, but they are just the middlemen and don't go out and create the behaviors that they record. Comparing koran translations to babelfish is ridiculous. I'm sure people worked hard translating the Koran into different languages. And if anything that's an argument in my favor. Not that I believe in anything written in these so called holy books, but how do you know that something wasn't lost in translation when the angel Gabriel supposedly told Mohammed what to write? In any case, why should I learn a language just to read a book that I know isn't the actual word of God anyway?
Koreans have actually used Chinese numbers and they developed their own system as well, not that having arabic numbers (that originated in India actually, long before Islam even came about)[edit]sorry I didn't see that you said this already] being used makes a difference to the argument at hand. The Romans had their numbers too as well as their own gods. Why not believe in Jupiter and Neptune, along with Allah?
By the way, saying fuck in every sentence doesn't help you get your point across, you just look immature and unnecessarily abrasive. It's not difficult to argue in a civilized manner without telling people that you disagree with to "shut up" and imply that they should "fuck your mother".
I would just like to say thanks for responding to my post in a well mannered manner I agree with you that my post was abrasive; it was actually intentional, but I do again thank you for a gm response oh also I wasn't saying to "go fuck your mom". I was more like trying to imply that people who fight for gay rights should also fight for the right to "fuck their mother" or incest, which is also illegal, but under the same pretenses, should be made legal.
I've been trying to keep up with this thread for the most part and people like JWD and Drone made most of my points, but it's too bad this retard was banned because if you equate homosexuality to incest, you obviously don't have the slightest clue.
On December 01 2009 13:57 ultramagnetics wrote: Why can't local communities/cities/states/whatever decide on whether or not they accept the construction of a new Minaret? (or for that manner any large building that would change the architecture/citiscape.. what if I am from a protestant sect that constructs similarly-shaped christian buildings..). All this will do is radicalize relations between Muslims and the Swiss. Pretty stupid law. If a community/city doesn't want a minaret, let them decide, rather then passing a law that bans ALL minarets in Switzerland.
the country of "Switzerland" is local enough imo
pretty small country
small enough for democracy to work
It was handled like you porpose before this vote.
And thats one of the reasons why i am so against this new law . The tools allready were there to ban Minarets from places were people did not want them.
Btw: If you think this is a minor topic we could/had to vote on you should check out all the stuff we actually vote about :p.
I didn't mean any disrespect towards the issues or Switzerland. I was merely stating that his complaints that people in a local community should be allowed to decide on laws were trivial considering how small Switzerland is compared to China, Russia, or the United States where local authorities have even less power in relation to the federal government.
On December 01 2009 14:47 Athos wrote: I don't think anybody in any thread I have read in the past 2 years on teamliquid has angered me as much as Ghostwriter has in this thread. Extremists of any kind are a problem to man kind, especially the atheist ones. They're the one's who piss me off the most because they're oblivious to the sad irony that they are just as devoted to atheism and 'science' as most religious extremest are to their respective god(s). Stop trying to see the world through your tainted 'enlightened' lens and actually learn about religions and understand them before you criticism them as evil and a plague on the world.
Also, Koreasilver is right. Take a goddamn logic course. Don't cite your opponent as using strawmans and then go to use them yourself. Learn to be less extremist, and maybe people will actually listen to your arguments, and maybe even like you.
On December 01 2009 16:31 GGTeMpLaR wrote: War is a continuation of policy by other means - Carl Von Clausewitz
As usual with quotes by great people, this one is continuously misunderstood and misused. Maybe you should read Vom Kriege first before applying his quote to support your point. Which it doesn't do at all in this case.
EPT
I agree with you that my post was abrasive; it was actually intentional, but I do again thank you for a gm response ![[image loading]](http://www.attitudetravel.com/switzerland/euroch.gif)
. The tools allready were there to ban Minarets from places were people did not want them.
