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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
Clearly the German people are not ostracizing these immigrants enough for them to submit! Every new generation of immigrants in the US is met with enough hostility to force them to conform. Germans are just too nice about it! I don't think this is so. Ostracization comes more naturally to visible minorities in Germany than in America. Of the minorities in Germany, the Poles are the best-integrated, while people of colour generally fail, even the yellow Asians. | ||
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FragKrag
United States11567 Posts
what about brown asians do they get double penalty? | ||
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pubbanana
United States3063 Posts
On December 01 2009 10:58 FragKrag wrote: lol what about brown asians do they get double penalty? I would assume that Vietnamese people count as 'brown Asians' and I know quite a few well-integrated Vietnamese Germans. There was even a girl on Germany's Next Top Model who was from Vietnam (and the winner was a second generation Ethiopian, no less).  | ||
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FragKrag
United States11567 Posts
i mean the real brown asians like in india and pakistan | ||
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pubbanana
United States3063 Posts
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
On December 01 2009 10:57 MoltkeWarding wrote: I don't think this is so. Ostracization comes more naturally to visible minorities in Germany than in America. Of the minorities in Germany, the Poles are the best-integrated, while people of colour generally fail, even the yellow Asians. As far as I know "yellow" Asians are quite well integrated or at least they have a very high employment rate in comparison to other groups. I haven't seen that many though but all I have met felt already as Germans (they were second generation though). On the other hand, "black" people really are not well integrated... | ||
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Freaky[x]
Canada995 Posts
I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time. Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject) As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on. I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining. | ||
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SmurfName
United States17 Posts
I live in new york and am originally from bangladesh, so I'm familiar with both sides of the spectrum. With any religion or morals or whatever, almost everyone has an inclination towards survival. In order to survive...people must be able to work with each other, be tolerant of differing opinions, and do what they want without causing harm to another. New york is a great example of this - u do what u want as long as u don't fudge with anyone else. Islam stresses peace and togetherness. The pilgrimage aka the Hajj just recently took place, where people of all cultures, backgrounds, societies, countries get together to represent togetherness...peace..tolerance..etc. Whether you are poor, rich, black, white, brown, yellow......doesn't matter. I don't see how banning the construction of minaret gets anyone toward this tolerance goal. It specifically targets a group of people and says you can't do this. This architecture, or the veil a woman wishes to wear, or w/e in no way harms other people so I don't get the justification. It's up to the person to make their own decisions - let the government f off. It's extremists, practices of governments, minds of fudged up people, that ruin things in the world. Mind you, islam is a way of life - it gives you guidance on how to eat, how to pray, how to conduct social life, how to do this and that - all towards making the person ethical/moral/spiritual. This is where war comes in to play - the quran gives muslims the right to defend themselves if they are oppressed. Muslims should not be the starters of any problems....they should only defend themselves. anyways i can write an essay no this but in short what I'm trying to say is there is no point preventing a group of people from doing something if it doesn't harm someone else. Basically be open minded of people with different backgrounds, faiths, opinions, etc even if it doesn't follow the majority's opinion. | ||
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
or the veil a woman wishes to wear If she really 'wishes to wear it', then that's fine, but you know as well as I do that many girls get beaten (or at the very least, emotionally abused) for not wanting to wear one. Not a tiny minority, either. This is where war comes in to play - the quran gives muslims the right to defend themselves if they are oppressed. Again, this is all well and good, but this is Switzerland. Muslims are guests in Switzerland, it is the Muslims' job to assimilate to Swiss culture, not Switzerland's job to assimilate to Islamic culture. What kind of person barges into another person's house and then declares culture war on them when the place isn't to their liking? There are many Muslims who are peaceful and tolerant, but they're too quiet, or maybe just too afraid. They don't condemn the extremists loudly or wholeheartedly enough. Remember what happened with the Mohammad cartoon fiasco in Europe. The 'moderate' Muslims were too afraid to condemn the Muslims making death threats. All you could get was a half-hearted "Yeah, the extremists are taking it too far, but you really should be more sensitive and not make comics like that" (again, implying that the cartoonist deserved it). Unless peaceful Muslims can grow some balls and show extremists that they're not afraid to condemn them, loudly and without making excuses, then it means one of two things: 1. They agree on some level with the extremists or 2. They're too afraid of physical retaliation/violence to condemn the extremists Neither option speaks particularly well for the Muslim world. It's good that there are peaceful Muslims, but entirely irrelevant unless they have more power than the extremists, which they absolutely do not. edit: I decided I was being too harsh and lightened the language a bit, and also removed the part about my friend, since it is anecdotal evidence and overly emotional. I do appreciate you taking the time to post here, but I wanted to voice my concerns anyway. | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
On December 01 2009 11:54 Freaky[x] wrote: I'm not sure if this is right, but I heard that many of the turks in germany are treated like trash and take on the worse jobs because people hate them so much (maybe not hate but they are discriminated against). They are basically lower class citizens. It's hard to have a will to integrate a society when you're not represented on a political level, because as a minority you will be slaves of the upper class. How do you want them to learn german when your government brings them as cheap labor...? I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time. Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject) As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on. I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining. Religion is a scourge that should be eliminated. Nothing else promotes ignorance, intolerance and blind faith like religion in general does, not just Islam. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Also, take a look at how voters in various states in America are refusing to give gay people the right to get married. Even if you hate gay people, how can you possibly do this? Many people use religion as their justification, claiming that God hates gays or whatever and posting the lines from the Bible that agree with their view. If their beliefs didn't affect other people, then there wouldn't be a problem, but they do. Take stem cell research for example. Why did George W. Bush not fund this? Instead, he went out of his way to oppose research, despite the fact that it would save many lives. I guess cells that can't feel or think are more important than living people. This is especially hypocritical when you consider the number of executions that George W. Bush presided over and the number of soldiers and civilians that died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that began during his presidency. | ||
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
On December 01 2009 11:54 Freaky[x] wrote: I'm not sure if this is right, but I heard that many of the turks in germany are treated like trash and take on the worse jobs because people hate them so much (maybe not hate but they are discriminated against). They are basically lower class citizens. It's hard to have a will to integrate a society when you're not represented on a political level, because as a minority you will be slaves of the upper class. How do you want them to learn german when your government brings them as cheap labor...? Yeah, it's true that in Germany there are some people that are intolerant towards foreigners (but it almost always applies to all foreigners not only turks and is mostly limited to rural areas and east Germany where there are very little foreigners) What you you write about was the situation 50 years ago when masses of turkish people came to Germany because the country needed cheap labor. Nowadays, Germans are pretty tolerant in general. I am a first generation immigrant from east Europe and have met enough other immigrants, who just like me are fully accepted and integrated in the society. Also Germany is a country with a LOT of immigrants from all over the world so people in the cities really are used to foreigners and get along with them. As for the "lower class citizen": Many (not all though) turkish immigrants are actually in the low social classes, which I would mostly blame on their inability to speak German at all, which leads to the inability to receive proper education and ultimately not receiving a good job (or no job at all). I don't know if this applies to germany, but I know for a fact as an arab that I'm not welcomed in certain countries and I'm treated like shit based on the fact that I'm arab. My brother was even thinking of changing his name to get a decent job in Europe at a certain time. This sux... But in cities in West Germany this is not a distinctive problem since Germans as mentioned above actually are tolerant. However, I must admit that as an Arab you would probably have less chances to get a certain job than a German. But on the other hand if you are dressed in European manner than your employment chances are not really worse than the chances a German would have. Let's take a small example, if you look at something every society in europe has: football. It's still VERY common to hear banana, monkey (against blacks), paki, and other extremely racist chants from the stand. It's as if WW2 continues on the football field and people use it as a symbol of patriotism. (sorry for that slightly off topic subject) Yeah, it has happened on multiple occasions in football matches throughout Europe. However, in Germany this basically never happens. As for the Minarets, I'm against the ban personally, but I'm mostly against the fact that a minority party managed to propagate this idea by propaganda(posters everywhere with a woman wearing a burka and the minarets behind her in black... wtf?) to get the Swiss to vote on this at a national level. Even The Cristians-Jewish-Muslim coalition society of Switzerland (or something like that) don't agree with this. The leading party was also against it, but had to adopt it because it was voted on. I just find it mildly amusing how atheist want to impose their way of thinking on people that are just minding their own business and practicing their belief. You know, many muslims believe in science, they do go see doctors, practice engineering and some even are scientists. Some muslims are crazy and that's a bummer, but some non-muslim swiss are also crazy. most celebrities are crazy, you don't see americans complaining. As far as I understood, the idea of the ban was by some radical right parties in Switzerland. They suck just as their posters do. However, I already expressed my views why I am against mosques (and minarets) and I would add a few more thoughts why I badly dislike the mosques around here: - How about the fact that many mosques are "turkish only" mosques? It's not like they are gonna throw you out if your are not a turk, but you would not be able to either talk to anybody else there nor you could participate in any non-religious activities that the mosques offer - Now guess, where the funds for most mosques in Germany (also in Bulgaria and probably other countries) come from? They are financed by the Presidency of Religious Affairs (turkish government institution) Well, that's not supposed to be a conspiracy theory. I honestly have no idea, why they are building all these mosques in Germany (In Bulgaria on the other hand, there is a turkish party, which is also funded by the turkish government - so it's all about political power). However, the turkish prime minister held a speech in front of 20000 people in Germany last year. There he successfully gather some votes for the next elections by praising the soon to be started constrution of a great mosque in Germany... It was kinda funny how he was talking about how the Turks need to better integrate themselves in Germany and then he suggested that there should be schools and universities in Germany in which the lessons are given in Turkish (way to go for integration!). Oh, by the way, after the Swiss banning minarets, Turkish politicians were very upset and started talking about human rights, freedom of religion, etc................ In fact in Turkey Christians, Jews and other religions are NOT allowed to build temples, churches and so on... Little annotation: I do NOT have anything against Turks! I do have several Turkish friends. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
Saying that science and religion are incompatible is quite wrong. | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
On December 01 2009 12:59 ggrrg wrote: Yeah, it's true that in Germany there are some people that are intolerant towards foreigners (but it almost always applies to all foreigners not only turks and is mostly limited to rural areas and east Germany where there are very little foreigners) What you you write about was the situation 50 years ago when masses of turkish people came to Germany because the country needed cheap labor. Nowadays, Germans are pretty tolerant in general. I am a first generation immigrant from east Europe and have met enough other immigrants, who just like me are fully accepted and integrated in the society. Also Germany is a country with a LOT of immigrants from all over the world so people in the cities really are used to foreigners and get along with them. As for the "lower class citizen": Many (not all though) turkish immigrants are actually in the low social classes, which I would mostly blame on their inability to speak German at all, which leads to the inability to receive proper education and ultimately not receiving a good job (or no job at all). This sux... But in cities in West Germany this is not a distinctive problem since Germans as mentioned above actually are tolerant. However, I must admit that as an Arab you would probably have less chances to get a certain job than a German. But on the other hand if you are dressed in European manner than your employment chances are not really worse than the chances a German would have. Yeah, it has happened on multiple occasions in football matches throughout Europe. However, in Germany this basically never happens. As far as I understood, the idea of the ban was by some radical right parties in Switzerland. They suck just as their posters do. However, I already expressed my views why I am against mosques (and minarets) and I would add a few more thoughts why I badly dislike the mosques around here: - How about the fact that many mosques are "turkish only" mosques? It's not like they are gonna throw you out if your are not a turk, but you would not be able to either talk to anybody else there nor you could participate in any non-religious activities that the mosques offer - Now guess, where the funds for most mosques in Germany (also in Bulgaria and probably other countries) come from? They are financed by the Presidency of Religious Affairs (turkish government institution) Well, that's not supposed to be a conspiracy theory. I honestly have no idea, why they are building all these mosques in Germany (In Bulgaria on the other hand, there is a turkish party, which is also funded by the turkish government - so it's all about political power). However, the turkish prime minister held a speech in front of 20000 people in Germany last year. There he successfully gather some votes for the next elections by praising the soon to be started constrution of a great mosque in Germany... It was kinda funny how he was talking about how the Turks need to better integrate themselves in Germany and then he suggested that there should be schools and universities in Germany in which the lessons are given in Turkish (way to go for integration!). Oh, by the way, after the Swiss banning minarets, Turkish politicians were very upset and started talking about human rights, freedom of religion, etc................ In fact in Turkey Christians, Jews and other religions are NOT allowed to build temples, churches and so on... Little annotation: I do NOT have anything against Turks! I do have several Turkish friends. If you're stating facts, you don't need to justify your statements by saying that you have friends in the group that you might be maligning. That's a tacit only used by people being racist fucks that try to cover it up by this kind of justification. But yeah, it tends to be the people who are most intolerant that yell the loudest for tolerance from others. | ||
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himurakenshin
Canada1845 Posts
On December 01 2009 12:43 ghostWriter wrote: Religion is a scourge that should be eliminated. Nothing else promotes ignorance, intolerance and blind faith like religion in general does, not just Islam. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Also, take a look at how voters in various states in America are refusing to give gay people the right to get married. Even if you hate gay people, how can you possibly do this? Many people use religion as their justification, claiming that God hates gays or whatever and posting the lines from the Bible that agree with their view. If their beliefs didn't affect other people, then there wouldn't be a problem, but they do. Take stem cell research for example. Why did George W. Bush not fund this? Instead, he went out of his way to oppose research, despite the fact that it would save many lives. I guess cells that can't feel or think are more important than living people. This is especially hypocritical when you consider the number of executions that George W. Bush presided over and the number of soldiers and civilians that died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that began during his presidency. oh just shut up. are you serious. Science and religion are polar opposites, you can't believe one without rejecting the other. Are you really serious. do you know how much islamic mathematicians and scientists have contributed to the world. do you know how many mathematicians were religious? Donald Knuth - do you know who he is? wow he is retarded isn't he, since he is so religious larry wall - he wrote the perl programming language. he is also a devout christian. he is obviously stupid. Charles Hard Townes - yeah he is stupid too issac newton - what the fuck did he ever accomplish Gottfried Leibniz - christian fucking noob Leonhard Euler - religion clearly drove him to doing jack shit with his life too so honestly I must say you have no idea what you are talking about. and blah blah about your gay shit. why the fuck don't they legalize incest and polygamy? whats wrong if I love my sister why can't I fuck her? lets agree that we won't have kids (even though its not that bad). better yet let me have gay sex with my brother. why is this illegal? all you gay rights supporters are fucking hypocrites if you ask me. they say they are supporting an ideal of equality, but they won't stand up for other issues which should be made legal based on the same principals. and btw to all the people saying islam is a dangerous religion. shut the fuck up. talk shit about islam once you have lived with some muslim people, or you are muslim, or have some association with them. not just some shit you hear on tv. and to the people quoting quran translations. first of all, go learn classical arabic before you try and talk about the quran. you reading quran translations is like trying to understand a progamers interview via babel fish. second of all if you look down on islam saying they are not advancing because of their religion, shut the fuck up as well. because they were one of the advanced cultures in science and technology. what fucking numbers are you guys using? english numbers? european numbers? christian numbers? i don't fucking think so. just because the islamic world isn't at the forefront of science and technology doesn't mean its because of their faith or culture that's holding them back. india was one of the most fucking advanced country in the world, let alone asia. infact arabic numbers are really indian numbers with a different script. if you don't know, everything from buddhism, karma, martial arts, trigonometry, shaolin, zen, buddhism kama sutra fuck it the list is way too long - came from indians. they aren't doing as well right now, but is that because of their faith or their culture? fuck no. so stop talking shit about how you think religion is holding people back. people who were very religious have accomplished more in a few years than most of us will accomplish in our whole lifetimes. now go fight for your right to fuck your mom. the fact that it's illegal is ridiculous. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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himurakenshin
Canada1845 Posts
On December 01 2009 13:23 koreasilver wrote: Don't point out his stupidity~ he might start rage PM'ing you for two days too! keke thank you for the warning | ||
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Matoo-
Canada1397 Posts
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pubbanana
United States3063 Posts
On December 01 2009 13:19 himurakenshin wrote: oh just shut up. are you serious. Are you really serious. do you know how much islamic mathematicians and scientists have contributed to the world. do you know how many mathematicians were religious? Donald Knuth - do you know who he is? wow he is retarded isn't he, since he is so religious larry wall - he wrote the perl programming language. he is also a devout christian. he is obviously stupid. Charles Hard Townes - yeah he is stupid too issac newton - what the fuck did he ever accomplish Gottfried Leibniz - christian fucking noob Leonhard Euler - religion clearly drove him to doing jack shit with his life too so honestly I must say you have no idea what you are talking about. and blah blah about your gay shit. why the fuck don't they legalize incest and polygamy? whats wrong if I love my sister why can't I fuck her? lets agree that we won't have kids (even though its not that bad). better yet let me have gay sex with my brother. why is this illegal? all you gay rights supporters are fucking hypocrites if you ask me. they say they are supporting an ideal of equality, but they won't stand up for other issues which should be made legal based on the same principals. and btw to all the people saying islam is a dangerous religion. shut the fuck up. talk shit about islam once you have lived with some muslim people, or you are muslim, or have some association with them. not just some shit you hear on tv. and to the people quoting quran translations. first of all, go learn classical arabic before you try and talk about the quran. you reading quran translations is like trying to understand a progamers interview via babel fish. second of all if you look down on islam saying they are not advancing because of their religion, shut the fuck up as well. because they were one of the advanced cultures in science and technology. what fucking numbers are you guys using? english numbers? european numbers? christian numbers? i don't fucking think so. just because the islamic world isn't at the forefront of science and technology doesn't mean its because of their faith or culture that's holding them back. india was one of the most fucking advanced country in the world, let alone asia. infact arabic numbers are really indian numbers with a different script. if you don't know, everything from buddhism, karma, martial arts, trigonometry, shaolin, zen, buddhism kama sutra fuck it the list is way too long - came from indians. they aren't doing as well right now, but is that because of their faith or their culture? fuck no. so stop talking shit about how you think religion is holding people back. people who were very religious have accomplished more in a few years than most of us will accomplish in our whole lifetimes. now go fight for your right to fuck your mom. the fact that it's illegal is ridiculous. Would you say these advances happened because they were religious, though? I think that's what ghostwriter is arguing here, that their religion did not motivate any of these advances which were made in mathematics, science and technology. But I don't know, I'm not ghostwriter, I'm just assuming. Wait to see what he says. | ||
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Duke
United States1106 Posts
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