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On June 23 2009 05:04 Atrioc wrote:
I'm definitely not making these changes randomly with no input.
I've sent a bunch of PM's (and talked some with ITW on IRC) about possible changes and what seems to need fixing. The GanZi change comes out of a long PM dialouge with Sleight.
To be more open: the current plan for OSL Select/SC2 Hype is to keep their same effect but add in a requirment that they cannot be played if you have already used another special card that turn, and you cant use special cards the rest of the turn after you play it.
This means the card have their amazing individual effect but cannot be massively chained through your deck by pulling multiple Sc2 hype / OSL Selects in a turn. It makes them more of a tactical choice without reducing their power (SC2 Hype - for instance - really had no drawback at all).
Thanks for your suggestions - the Horang2 and TLPD ones are really nice and seem to be the consensus among other people i've talked to! NaDa as well, though I dont know if his first attack should have its damage lowered or if its team card cost should be increased.
As for TheRock - what are your thoughts on a simple increase in his GG cost?
Oh fantastic.
I really like the idea of SC2 Hype being the only special card that turn.
Making Nada more team coloured would make sense. The only general danger I see is that there are LOTS of teams in the game and when making a deck this limits your choices quite a lot. Basically I think there needs to be more colourless card.
Well TheRock can only really be used for stalling.
Also if you want to remove him you can use his attack to kill himself.
Basically the decks which would use Rock wouldn't really want to GG him anyway. "Poor coaching" for example is a good when used with Rock.
In General I like GG costs to be low because swapping progamers in and out brings a lot of tactics.
In the current set cards like Pure are really fun to use (even if he is overpowered). I'd like to see more 0GG cost cards in the next set.
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I think Osl Selection/TLPD are good examples of cards that should be similar to the support cards in pokemon where you can only play one a turn. I think the game as is could use some extra searching and some discard mechanics too (control in general); obviously these shouldn't be too strong. Stuff like reordering the top n cards of your deck. Here's some stuff I was brainstorming:
Preparation: Look at the opponents hand and choose one card to discard.
Mind Games: Discard one card at random: Your opponent discards two cards at random.
Also I think we could use a special to discard the current map and tone down python a bit; as is Python can pretty much single handedly shut down any map-based deck (and I'd personally like to see some more map based mechanics seeing play).
I'd also like to see more map cards and we were brainstorming some ideas for global effects the other day in irc. One idea that was brought up was a forge/evo/ebay card which you could somehow pump to increase that races attack (possibly only your players of that race, possibly all players); I'd suggested attaching energy to it (although that could be a little strong), there were thoughts of a counter mechanic with it.
Here's a couple ideas I had for global effects:
Good Scouting: Opponent plays with the top card of their library revealed
Contain: Your opponent can not attach team cards to their active progamer
Macro Game: The active progamer with higher stamina does +1 damage
Micro Game: The active progamer with lower stamina does +1 damage
Fast moving game: Slumping progamer's take 1 damage at the end of each turn (before check for not slumping)
And here's some ideas I had for maps:
Outsider: Active Progamers have "Discard (T): opp becomes fatigued"
Demon's Forest: Basic progamers can be played face-down (reveal them if this goes out of play, they become active, they take damage, or they are upgraded)
Battle Royal: Zerg have +2 stamina
Neo-Requiem: Attacks costing 2 or less energy do +1 damage (only if it does damage)
Blue Storm: Progamers can't attack on the turn they become active
Also, from what I've seen an energy discarding deck with Netizens and Path of the Night seems hard to counter; especially since there's nothing like counter spells or control like in magic to prevent your opponent from doing much.
I also think the game could use basic progamers of each race that are strong against each other race, ie. Terran's that are good v T, P, Z. Just something basic like:
XXX Cycle (Basic): 4 Stamina, (T): 1, Strong v YYY
to help provide some filler.
Lastly I'd love to see rarities added so we could have drafts and sealed play (not sure what the pokemon rules are regarding it).
Anyway, just my 2 cents so far; great work though, its nice to see a tcg based on progaming  Althought I do agree with Anotak that I personally like the complexities of magic more so than what I've seen of the pokemon rules; the Pokemon ruleset seems to make more sense gameplay wise in simulating progaming though.
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On June 23 2009 05:16 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2009 05:04 Atrioc wrote:
I'm definitely not making these changes randomly with no input.
I've sent a bunch of PM's (and talked some with ITW on IRC) about possible changes and what seems to need fixing. The GanZi change comes out of a long PM dialouge with Sleight.
To be more open: the current plan for OSL Select/SC2 Hype is to keep their same effect but add in a requirment that they cannot be played if you have already used another special card that turn, and you cant use special cards the rest of the turn after you play it.
This means the card have their amazing individual effect but cannot be massively chained through your deck by pulling multiple Sc2 hype / OSL Selects in a turn. It makes them more of a tactical choice without reducing their power (SC2 Hype - for instance - really had no drawback at all).
Thanks for your suggestions - the Horang2 and TLPD ones are really nice and seem to be the consensus among other people i've talked to! NaDa as well, though I dont know if his first attack should have its damage lowered or if its team card cost should be increased.
As for TheRock - what are your thoughts on a simple increase in his GG cost?
Oh fantastic. I really like the idea of SC2 Hype being the only special card that turn. Making Nada more team coloured would make sense. The only general danger I see is that there are LOTS of teams in the game and when making a deck this limits your choices quite a lot. Basically I think there needs to be more colourless card. Well TheRock can only really be used for stalling. Also if you want to remove him you can use his attack to kill himself. Basically the decks which would use Rock wouldn't really want to GG him anyway. "Poor coaching" for example is a good when used with Rock. In General I like GG costs to be low because swapping progamers in and out brings a lot of tactics. In the current set cards like Pure are really fun to use (even if he is overpowered). I'd like to see more 0GG cost cards in the next set.
Cube (I think) had a nice RH3 deck that was swapping Terran progamers out that I liked. I think gg'ing is an important feature but shouldn't be too cheap that every deck is going to be using it. Also if gust of wind is too powerful maybe something like "GG the opponent's active progamer, they must pick a different progamer to become active (can't be used if they have no benched progamers)".
As for Nada 4 attack for 2 colorless is very powerful; reducing it to 3 damage seems fine or perhaps upping the cost (maybe adding some team cost to it).
Also, why did you remove the prize card mechanic that pokemon uses? It seems to be very influential in the flow of the game with card drawing.
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51507 Posts
Cube's RH3 deck is easily counterable with a Python/Anti-Terran deck (I made one and it just creamed him).
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United States1865 Posts
On June 23 2009 05:44 GTR wrote:
Cube's RH3 deck is easily counterable with a Python/Anti-Terran deck (I made one and it just creamed him).
Well haha yeah if you know what deck hes gonna run - but in general I dont think its a good idea to go in blind with a Python // Anti-Terran deck.
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Klive - you know that the Bonjwa cards are not Special cards right? You need to have all 5 in your hand at the same time in order to win, making your 1-ofs deck pretty pointless.
Also, running 4x Poker seems pretty loose unless you plan on winning most of your coin flips.
Atrioc - the changes you suggest to SC2/OSL seem reasonable. However, I don't actually think that SC2/OSL were problematic before, despite being extremely efficient card drawers, as long as there is not a mechanic like Bonjwa. Being able to OSL through your deck to Bonjwa win is bad for the game. Being able to OSL through your deck to set up is not when everyone can do it.
Abydos, Atrioc & everyone else: Just because the card draw/selection engine is really, really good does not make it bad for gameplay. In fact, I'd argue that it decreases the variance because it allows both players to get their decks to do what they are designed to do, every game.
Mechanics like disruption and coin flips, however, are obnoxious and bad for the game when poorly designed. Abydos, the Preparation and Mind Games card would be examples of cards that are both obnoxious and increase the variance in the game. Atrioc, cards like Pure often cause the game state to swing significantly on the result of a single coin flip.
Obviously the card draw/selection engine would cause problems if combined with cards like the ones Abydos suggested, or the Bonjwa card, but I argue that the problem is not with the card drawers.
Atrioc, I know you said that you are not just making changes randomly, but your PMs and IRC conversations are not accessible to the rest of us. So far everyone posting here is just saying things that need to be changed without giving reasons for why they are detrimental for gameplay. If you disagree with me argue your points with reasons to support them and I'll be glad to consider them.
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The rock is always used in combination with poor coaching, so that he can tank 11 dmg and comes fresh from hand without dmg.
Increasing gg cost wouldnt do too much.
Also i would like to give you more ideas to "nerf" those fast decks like
1) a map that does not allow special cards
2) a speical card as special card conter to conter only the positive effect of a soecial card ( in case of osl selec you must pay all you cards but u cannot draw any)
3) make special cards or palyers effects that forces youe enemy to discard some cards from his library.
this helps against bonjwa decks since 1 missing card screws you over
and
it also helps vs fast draw decks with poker/sc2hype/osl, because those decks use a huge amount of cards, in combination with dorced discarding those players will face the situation where he cannot draw anymore > gg
(note: the card could well be a doubled edge sword like "both players discard x cards from the top of their library" since if you are smart your deck will not be as fast as your enemies ^^ )
4) a card/ability to steal a card from thediscarded cards of your enemy, would work well together with the cards mentioned above+ osl/msl selec
Another thing maybe worth mentioning, except sea.shield and jaedong there are not much cards to conter "neizen" and night life"
"neizen and "night life" make the game "low eco".
This plus the fact that some of those ungradeable basic cards ( yes i am looking at you oov! and iris!) are almost on s-lvl cards with their great stamina and damage output makes it hard to get out later tier gamers.( edit: since i know now you can upgrade gamers in fights this might not be too true/accurate anymore )
At the end questions like always:
1)Can i upgrade a active and fighting progamer? ( before he attacks ofc^^ )
2) can for examplebackho fish me out 1 basic gamer per round into my hand when, and can he do it sitting on my bench? Or does it only work once and/or only when he is active fighting?
3) If my gamer is weak vs P , does it affect when i attack a P or only when i am getting attacked by a P?
4) If my jaedong is good vs z and attacks calm who is weak vs z do i get stacked bonus of +4 or only +2
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United States1865 Posts
On June 23 2009 07:16 Teejing wrote:
At the end questions like always:
1)Can i upgrade a active and fighting progamer? ( before he attacks ofc^^ )
2) can for examplebackho fish me out 1 basic gamer per round into my hand when, and can he do it sitting on my bench? Or does it only work once and/or only when he is active fighting?
3) If my gamer is weak vs P , does it affect when i attack a P or only when i am getting attacked by a P?
4) If my jaedong is good vs z and attacks calm who is weak vs z do i get stacked bonus of +4 or only +2
1. Yeah, as long as its not the same turn he was played from your hand (and you cant upgrade the same guy twice in one turn either)
2. Well the "OSL Tiebreakers" thing is one of BackHo's attacks, so it counts as an attack. You have to be the active progamer to use it, and it ends your turn once you use it.
3. Only when you are getting attacked. A good way to remember it is: when you are attacking - you never look at the Strong/Weak matchups of your own card, only the card that you are attacking.
4. Same answer as #3 - so no, you only get a bonus of +2 (from your enemy's weak MU). Strong matchups only help your own guys receive less damage, not dish out extra.
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Thx alot for answering =)
Are jangbi´s stalement, by.heroes "high apm", by greats "proy hatchery" the same? So all those abilities work like an attack with no dmg?
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On June 23 2009 07:16 Teejing wrote:
3) make special cards or palyers effects that forces youe enemy to discard some cards from his library.
this helps against bonjwa decks since 1 missing card screws you over
and
it also helps vs fast draw decks with poker/sc2hype/osl, because those decks use a huge amount of cards, in combination with dorced discarding those players will face the situation where he cannot draw anymore > gg
(note: the card could well be a doubled edge sword like "both players discard x cards from the top of their library" since if you are smart your deck will not be as fast as your enemies ^^
milling does not generate card [dis]advantage of any kind, if that's what you're implying, and milling is still a cheap/trivial cost
On June 23 2009 06:49 Gustav_Wind wrote:
Abydos, Atrioc & everyone else: Just because the card draw/selection engine is really, really good does not make it bad for gameplay. In fact, I'd argue that it decreases the variance because it allows both players to get their decks to do what they are designed to do, every game.
Mechanics like disruption and coin flips, however, are obnoxious and bad for the game when poorly designed. Abydos, the Preparation and Mind Games card would be examples of cards that are both obnoxious and increase the variance in the game. Atrioc, cards like Pure often cause the game state to swing significantly on the result of a single coin flip.
Obviously the card draw/selection engine would cause problems if combined with cards like the ones Abydos suggested, or the Bonjwa card, but I argue that the problem is not with the card drawers.
Atrioc, I know you said that you are not just making changes randomly, but your PMs and IRC conversations are not accessible to the rest of us. So far everyone posting here is just saying things that need to be changed without giving reasons for why they are detrimental for gameplay. If you disagree with me argue your points with reasons to support them and I'll be glad to consider them.
as a combo player in MTG, the bonjwa decks are by far the most interesting decks to me to play. Combo decks don't have to overpowered, the thing that makes this deck overpowered is being able to do everything for free in one turn. it's really cool to be able to play through all your deck like that, the part that's not cool is it being basically undisruptable/uncounterable by your opponent and possible on turn 1. i don't know though, in general the decks that aren't overpowered on the other hand seem to be boringly slow
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Fast decks use up alot of cards, when you force him to discard some more from his library he will end up with 0 cards in his library which is a lose condition
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United States47024 Posts
On June 23 2009 09:10 Teejing wrote:
Fast decks use up alot of cards, when you force him to discard some more from his library he will end up with 0 cards in his library which is a lose condition
Even if you played out 4x OSL Selection and 4x SC2 Hype, you still have 17 turns before you lose. That's fairly long by most TCG standards. And the chances that you will play out all 8 copies of those cards is very slim.
Mill doesn't affect the game-state. Unless your opponent is specifically building to mill you (not exactly easy, seeing as there's an extremely small number of relevant cards that do it), it has no effect on average on the game.
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Thats why i did suggest to implement such cards with the new cards coming, also you missed out msl selec/poker.
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is awesome32277 Posts
poor coaching is still broken with rock, even if you add gg cost.
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On June 23 2009 06:49 Gustav_Wind wrote:
Klive - you know that the Bonjwa cards are not Special cards right? You need to have all 5 in your hand at the same time in order to win, making your 1-ofs deck pretty pointless.
Also, running 4x Poker seems pretty loose unless you plan on winning most of your coin flips.
Atrioc - the changes you suggest to SC2/OSL seem reasonable. However, I don't actually think that SC2/OSL were problematic before, despite being extremely efficient card drawers, as long as there is not a mechanic like Bonjwa. Being able to OSL through your deck to Bonjwa win is bad for the game. Being able to OSL through your deck to set up is not when everyone can do it.
Abydos, Atrioc & everyone else: Just because the card draw/selection engine is really, really good does not make it bad for gameplay. In fact, I'd argue that it decreases the variance because it allows both players to get their decks to do what they are designed to do, every game.
Mechanics like disruption and coin flips, however, are obnoxious and bad for the game when poorly designed. Abydos, the Preparation and Mind Games card would be examples of cards that are both obnoxious and increase the variance in the game. Atrioc, cards like Pure often cause the game state to swing significantly on the result of a single coin flip.
Obviously the card draw/selection engine would cause problems if combined with cards like the ones Abydos suggested, or the Bonjwa card, but I argue that the problem is not with the card drawers.
Atrioc, I know you said that you are not just making changes randomly, but your PMs and IRC conversations are not accessible to the rest of us. So far everyone posting here is just saying things that need to be changed without giving reasons for why they are detrimental for gameplay. If you disagree with me argue your points with reasons to support them and I'll be glad to consider them.
Maybe I misread the rules, they're ambiguous. I read it as to play a Bonjwa card from your hand you must have already played all the titles.
It would weaken the deck no doubt.
Even if I needed them all in my hand I could win the vast majority.
I agree strongly with your other points.
Card drawing is important to the game and shouldn't really be nerfed. If anything there needs to be more ways to draw. Spells that remove cards slow the game down.
I also agree that coin-flips are very annoying and should be avoided.
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Also I wanted to add that I really don't like Path of the Night and Korean Netizens.
Those cards are too powerful and slow the game drastically.
On June 23 2009 09:38 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2009 09:10 Teejing wrote:
Fast decks use up alot of cards, when you force him to discard some more from his library he will end up with 0 cards in his library which is a lose condition
Even if you played out 4x OSL Selection and 4x SC2 Hype, you still have 17 turns before you lose. That's fairly long by most TCG standards. And the chances that you will play out all 8 copies of those cards is very slim. Mill doesn't affect the game-state. Unless your opponent is specifically building to mill you (not exactly easy, seeing as there's an extremely small number of relevant cards that do it), it has no effect on average on the game.
Cards like TLPD, FanCheerfuls, IloveOov all mill through cards and 17 turns is not a long time to survive in this format.
I really like the idea of having to kill your opponent fast or deck yourself.
On June 23 2009 12:52 IntoTheWow wrote:
poor coaching is still broken with rock, even if you add gg cost.
Agree.
Although I think it's TheRock that's broken, not poor coaching.
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United States1865 Posts
To clarify: You need all 5 bonjwa cards in your hand at the same time. You cant play them anywhere and wait until you get more - you have to play all 5 at once from your hand.
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On June 23 2009 15:56 Atrioc wrote:
To clarify: You need all 5 bonjwa cards in your hand at the same time. You cant play them anywhere and wait until you get more - you have to play all 5 at once from your hand.
So is it kind of like the exodia pieces in yugioh, where if you get all five you immediately win?
regardless, I need to check this out immediately
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The Bonjwa mechanic is not broken. You need 4of 5 cards that are useless until you actually win. OSL, SCII, TLPD, Ganzi are the problems. In MTG, you don't ban the kill card, you ban the engine. There was a series of decks that could 'go off' turn 1 or 2 and kill with 1 of 3 different cards or by just playing a lot of spells in Extended a couple years back. Turns out, it wasn't the kill, it was the card Tinker that let them generate card advantage that it didn't matter what they did, they'd end up overwhelming the opponent.
Atrioc changes are the most ideal. This way, Bonjwa combo is still viable and everyone gets an opportunity to still use the great effects of OSL or SCII but they will require very judicious timing.
And the Rock+Poor Coaching is not 'broken,' it is 'strong.' Broken wins the game. Strong is difficult to deal with. Bonjwa right now is 'broken.' As in, cannot be fixed. The Rock can be beaten and all it does is delay the game. It wins nothing and if meanwhile, you are going to town with any number of good strategies, you will survive, regardless of the increased game duration.
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Btw. what is up with all those coinflips? ^^
For example requim could easy be changed into a card that does not need coinflip, like
"each players ccan transfer 1 damage counter from 1 pro to another"
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EPT
