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On June 22 2009 14:01 JieXian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2009 07:39 Judicator wrote:On June 21 2009 23:14 JieXian wrote:
I remembered that ToD was kinda famous for being emo. If you think Orc is imba, why not just change to orc? i never get these WC3 people. As for me, switched whenever i think another race is better and i usually end up realising it's all balanced
How did Moon make human heroes? No, like I said before, there is no reliable counter to the RNG, BM's crits are stupid as hell+the wide damage range on him makes it hard for you to properly react especially if it occurs at bad times in a team fight. The Orc player can just let the BM loose on whatever hero for a few seconds coming out of Windwalk, micro his troops, and then respond accordingly, add in whatever the t2 hero is, TC/SH, and the spiritwalkers, its stupid easy to score a quick kill on any unit if you are lucky enough. The only thing that other players playing against the Orc have is that they know what strategy is coming, its literally the same shit (unit composition) for almost all MUs. But all of that means shit when the BM crits your hero twice (on the upper end of his damage range + backstab damage) and force a TP despite you having the better positioning. And ToD's been on the receiving end of that bad luck one too many times. You don't get it. If you think orc is so imba? Why not use the imba race and try to gain an advantage? Because there isn't one to gain. I've been playing for 3 years, though just casually. Though i am not really good, but i definitely think I do know more than you, if you seriously think that ORC is imba. Classic UD have Coil + Nova - a huge nuke, which can finish off Heroes at about 1/3 hp (generalizing). Classic Human vs Orc style if they use AM + Beastmaster have insane amounts of summons which they usually use for tower rushing, or a 5 second stun from MK (but of course the stun can be evaded by the BM's ww) Classic NE VS ORC uses DH + Beastmaster. Dh burns the mana from and TC or SH and tanks and fights equally well with the BM and the naga slows stuff Moreover, NE and HU have Staff, which can instantly save units. Tell me it's not balanced now. But by classic, i mean the way it was usually played some time agoOh ya. Thanks, i forgot about charm .. i have only seen charm used on bigger units and i totally forgot about it.
You are missing my point, you can predict and play against Staff, you can play against activated spells, you can play against buffs and units. You can't consistently play against the randomness of crit. All those instances you listed? You can plan against, you can play accordingly. My point isn't Orc is imba, its that if the Blademaster lands chain crits, the fight shifts in the Orc's favor very very quickly, its not like the Orc player pulled some super micro. Name another skill or hero in the game at levels 2-4 that can constantly pose a major offensive threat with requiring only the most basic skills as a War3 player at no cost to the hero.
Right now Orc is imba because even if you plan right, play right, it means shit if the BM gets lucky, that's the problem, when ToD rages at the BM he literally means just the BM, and its just not ToD that recognizes the problem with BM, almost ever pro War3 player will say something about the BM, alot of them were surprised when 1.23 came out and no BM nerfs, Orc players included. So again, you're misunderstanding the gripe of the players, the unpredictability of the BM makes it annoying and it's highlighted in Orc mirrors where it literally boils down to who gets more crits at certain moments. The Orc race is fine, the BM is the problem.
And your original question is up to the player, I mean you can ask why Yellow never switched races (or even playstyles for that matter) after finishing second every time.
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Orc is imba. The 2008-2009 results have all been quite orc heavy in the top of tournaments. Are the Orc players just better than all the rest? Certainly not.
Here is why they are:
Scroll of Speed
Ensnare
Spirit Link
Healing Wave
Orb of Lightning (not used too much because they don't need it to be insanely imba, but some recent orcs have been using it)
Items benefitting the Blademaster (claws, gloves, circlet, agility)
Now these aren't imba by themselves, but when you combine them with a Blademaster as first hero it is just total destruction.
Blademaster is a scout, harasser, creep jacker, and a main damage dealer in an army. How does that even work? One hero performs all the functions of a full set of units for any other race. And he can buy healing salves and just heal himself up at any point should he take some damage and come right back to be a pest. Something needs to be done about it, but I don't think it will.
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Oh you're only talking about crits. Nevermind then, i'm not a fan of RNG too, esp like WoW.
Though i haven't been playing since after the new patch. I know that's when the other races are nerfed, besides orc. That was when Human turtles and NE prevailed i think. Ok, maybe things that i'm not aware of have changed since then.
Still, i know orcs don't go BM everytime, sometimes they go FS. There has to be a reason.
This is coming from someone who changed from Human to UD to Orc except NE throughout a few years.
I changed to Orc after the new patch, i admit :D
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On June 24 2009 14:03 JieXian wrote:
Oh you're only talking about crits. Nevermind then, i'm not a fan of RNG too, esp like WoW.
Though i haven't been playing since after the new patch. I know that's when the other races are nerfed, besides orc. That was when Human turtles and NE prevailed i think. Ok, maybe things that i'm not aware of have changed since then.
Still, i know orcs don't go BM everytime, sometimes they go FS. There has to be a reason.
This is coming from someone who changed from Human to UD to Orc except NE throughout a few years.
I changed to Orc after the new patch, i admit :D
Accordingly, on TM FS is stronger.
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On June 24 2009 14:03 JieXian wrote:
Oh you're only talking about crits. Nevermind then, i'm not a fan of RNG too, esp like WoW.
Though i haven't been playing since after the new patch. I know that's when the other races are nerfed, besides orc. That was when Human turtles and NE prevailed i think. Ok, maybe things that i'm not aware of have changed since then.
Still, i know orcs don't go BM everytime, sometimes they go FS. There has to be a reason.
This is coming from someone who changed from Human to UD to Orc except NE throughout a few years.
I changed to Orc after the new patch, i admit :D
That FS they use? To harass the living crap out of Humans on maps where the militia creeping is harder and the HU is using an AM. But it rarely works out that well since those maps usually includes a merc camp with trolls, and good building placement+1 Arcane stomps any base harass. Basically you get better tier 1 pressure and if you don't get it then the HU gets to T2 caster and just rapes your army with a now useless hero in FS.
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Re: Jiexan
You've listed a bunch of specific unit/micro examples, but the point is that nothing is dangerous by itself. The idea is that certain things are blocked or controlled by the entire game flow.
The problem is that there are a number of situations where BM becomes too dominant with no gameplay counter. His power early game doesn't diminish late game - so any advantage that he rolls early on is going to be compounded mid and late game. Again, this is not an issue in itself, but combined with how the matchups and maps play out, it becomes a large issue.
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They're playing a repeat of Moon vs Infi at the moment.
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the arguments about crit/RNG for why the bm is good....completely unfounded. crits arent even completely random, they use a system called "progressive percentages"
source: http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/23182-Wotlk_uses_Warcraft_3_codes_for_item_drop_rate
i wouldnt call the blademaster imba, but the reason why hes such a dangerous hero is because of how he influences game flow. it is very easy for orc to gain an advantage in the early game, whether through creep jacks or just pressure in general. because of raiders, shadow hunter, and link, orc essentially controls the map until an undead hits tier 3. little advantages he got in the early game will translate big in the mid game, and it compounds from there.
to answer another person's question about why you see people going FS at times, there are a few reasons:
1. you are against human, and you expect a tower rush (turtle rock especially). later in the game hu also have slow which dampens a lot of what the bm can do
2. you are playing on a map which bm doesnt creep well (twisted basically, though its also true on some lesser played maps like road to stratholme).
that being said, a lot of times it comes down to personal preference. i see the grubster going fs more than other orcs in general.
also, an interesting note, rotterdam is pretty famous for having an exclusive love affair with the far seer, so drop him a comment on their next cast and he can probably give you more insight than me, a lowly undead player 
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Finally, more live games are coming up. Tomorrow at the normal time (15:00 CET) it's InFi VS Grubby.
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You do know that system doesn't make the BM worse but better right? The problem with that system is that it doesn't deteriorate (at least based on the article) and I don't know if giving some controlling factor to the BM's crit is a good thing especially at level 3.
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not too excited about inf vs grubby , online play will be too laggy just like with moon
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Second game was pretty good also.
I really like this match-up
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Damn, missed the 2nd and 3rd games.
Semis:
Moon VS TeD
Grubby VS FoV
Both on Saturday.
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Starts 2 hours earlier than normal tomorrow, so starts at 13:00 CET.
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Hey
any recommendable games from the tournament?
first time that i'm going to watch some war 3 commentary games
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I can't recall any, but the commentary is very good throughout :D For people newer to WC3 I'd stay away from long games or mirror match-ups - look for a good Orc vs. Night Elf game.
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EPT
