EPTWill definitely check PL fits out
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34493 Posts
Will definitely check PL fits out | ||
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Widdershins
51 Posts
On February 19 2011 18:42 Firebolt145 wrote: I would've thought efficiency = cost effectiveness of ships, and bc's (which is all we fly) is pretty much THE cost effective ship in eve. Will definitely check PL fits out Not necessarily. It's true that battlecruisers are an excellent medium, but for only slightly more money you can build a tier 1 battleship that tanks more and does more damage. Kil2 accomplished this by leaving Large Trimarks (Eternal Scourge of Wallets) out of his fits, instead substituting damage rigs and putting a third armor plate in the low slots where another heat sink might have gone. By comparison, battlecruisers are a tad fragile in general. Like destroyers when compared to cruisers, they are in general hardly any more difficult to hit than a battleship, while they deal less damage and don't survive as long under direct fire. In exchange, they are much faster, easier to train for, and fare much better against smaller ships than a battleship typically would. Really it mostly depends on what you're fighting. But when a properly fit battlecruiser costs 70 million and a battleship fit for efficiency might cost 85 or 90, plus improved insurance return on the battleship, battlecruisers are often actually less 'efficient' in moderate numbers. Club Bear used a lot of battlecruisers too, btw. Harbinger, dual rep Brutix, Ferox, to name a few. But most of their fights were ones where surviving outnumbered under heavy fire was needed for longer than a battlecruiser could generally manage, and so Dominixes and Armageddons were the order of the day. | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34493 Posts
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Weken
United Kingdom580 Posts
On February 19 2011 19:12 Widdershins wrote: Not necessarily. It's true that battlecruisers are an excellent medium, but for only slightly more money you can build a tier 1 battleship that tanks more and does more damage. Kil2 accomplished this by leaving Large Trimarks (Eternal Scourge of Wallets) out of his fits, instead substituting damage rigs and putting a third armor plate in the low slots where another heat sink might have gone. By comparison, battlecruisers are a tad fragile in general. Like destroyers when compared to cruisers, they are in general hardly any more difficult to hit than a battleship, while they deal less damage and don't survive as long under direct fire. In exchange, they are much faster, easier to train for, and fare much better against smaller ships than a battleship typically would. Really it mostly depends on what you're fighting. But when a properly fit battlecruiser costs 70 million and a battleship fit for efficiency might cost 85 or 90, plus improved insurance return on the battleship, battlecruisers are often actually less 'efficient' in moderate numbers. Club Bear used a lot of battlecruisers too, btw. Harbinger, dual rep Brutix, Ferox, to name a few. But most of their fights were ones where surviving outnumbered under heavy fire was needed for longer than a battlecruiser could generally manage, and so Dominixes and Armageddons were the order of the day. Im supprised that you can get them that cheap, i think that an abaddon costs 125mil for the hull at least. | ||
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Johnny Business
Sweden1251 Posts
Geddons are really cheap for a battleship but they are so clumsy. | ||
KwarK
United States42978 Posts
On February 19 2011 11:21 Widdershins wrote: Wow, are you mad about something? No need to get nasty, sarcastic, and combative, dude. What the hell. I didn't say what you said was wrong. I was letting him know that there's more to fitting, and what he can do to work towards becoming a self-sufficient expert in that area in the future. Do you treat everyone who tries to help your corp members like this? edit: jesus christ, wow, i still can't believe you responded like that. I'd appreciate us not being treated like idiots. Of course we know about EFT. | ||
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KwarK
United States42978 Posts
On February 19 2011 20:01 Firebolt145 wrote: Thanks to kwark I've got this mentality that anything t1 = bad aside from frigates :/ If you've got the skills like large projectile V and shit then maybe they're not so terrible. But trying to fly a PvP tempest at 2m SP is. Using this dt to take an EFT at various bs fits that could augment our fleet (minnie is fine obv) but so far I can't make the raven compare favourably to the drake. Edit: There's no way to give a raven heavy neuts, speed and EHP. You get to pick two. Five midslots is really limited when you need a cap booster to keep it moving (-2 slots from drake which after point + mwd = half the utility/tank mids of a drake) and it has considerably worse base resists. Using med neuts I've created a fit that can move decently well with respectable EHP and raven damage. I'll look into it when I get torp V done. | ||
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bN`
Slovenia504 Posts
Helps to have competent scimi pilots too. | ||
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KwarK
United States42978 Posts
On February 19 2011 21:00 bN` wrote: I know this may sound like a broken record but honestly the most cost efficient, able to take on larger numbers and not so hard to fly fleet comp in this game is a darkside drake gang. I'm sure you can find some recon pilots and get your newguys into drakes. You're able to engage gangs much larger then yours and it can be done with 8dudes or 20+ dudes(with mostly the drake numbers increasing so you won't giant ammounts of sp) Helps to have competent scimi pilots too. We know thanks. | ||
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Widdershins
51 Posts
On February 19 2011 20:23 KwarK wrote: I'd appreciate us not being treated like idiots. Of course we know about EFT. You're not reading what I'm writing. In response... oh screw it On February 19 2011 13:07 Widdershins wrote: I was replying to the new guy, who asked for help. I gave him some basic advice for learning to get really good at using EFT to produce excellent fits. Nothing about that assumes anything about anyone except that that one guy is unfamiliar with how things are generally done and what's the most useful way to go about it. On February 19 2011 20:20 Weken wrote: Im supprised that you can get them that cheap, i think that an abaddon costs 125mil for the hull at least. First tier battleships (Armageddon, Typhoon, and Dominix) are extremely powerful and very cheap, less than 45 million isk for the hull these days. (Scorpion is also pretty cheap, but is a different sort of ship altogether.) The larger ships are significantly more expensive, but for many applications they aren't hugely better; just different. On February 19 2011 20:20 Johnny Business wrote: Too bad none of the Amarr battleships fit in our fleet t.t Geddons are really cheap for a battleship but they are so clumsy. Your fleets are primarily shield. I have not yet seen The Hatchery field an actual armor gang. If by "clumsy" you mean slow, then yes. It's not fast; it's Amarr, and it's full-on armor to boot. But it has a hellish buffer tank, unbelievable damage output, and fantastic range, plus a full-sized drone bay. It's one of my favorite ships. On February 19 2011 20:26 KwarK wrote: If you've got the skills like large projectile V and shit then maybe they're not so terrible. But trying to fly a PvP tempest at 2m SP is. Using this dt to take an EFT at various bs fits that could augment our fleet (minnie is fine obv) but so far I can't make the raven compare favourably to the drake. Edit: There's no way to give a raven heavy neuts, speed and EHP. You get to pick two. Five midslots is really limited when you need a cap booster to keep it moving (-2 slots from drake which after point + mwd = half the utility/tank mids of a drake) and it has considerably worse base resists. Using med neuts I've created a fit that can move decently well with respectable EHP and raven damage. I'll look into it when I get torp V done. The raven is a bit of a special case when considered in PVP. It excels in the PVE arena, but when brought to PVP it is very limited in its applications. You really shouldn't be trying to make a raven fast. It just doesn't work. It should be heavily buffer tanked with good resists (get rid of that cap booster, it's useless), a longpoint -- and maybe a MWD, but moving is not actually very important for big missile boats in gang PVP, only positioning and range. For PVP, it is a basic necessity to have torpedoes over cruise missiles. Neuts will suffice, though guns can be included instead. When fitted, skilled, and deployed properly, a torp raven makes a very powerful addition to a DPS gang, but it is not a good ship for most of the things Hatchery does on a day to day basis. It's just awful for lowsec roaming. As for flying battleships with 2m sp, of course don't do that. When I talk about a certain ship being very good, I'm not talking about it being something that will find an immediate application in your corp; I'm talking about the ship as flown by a competent and well-skilled pilot, in a general sense. On February 19 2011 21:00 bN` wrote: I know this may sound like a broken record but honestly the most cost efficient, able to take on larger numbers and not so hard to fly fleet comp in this game is a darkside drake gang. I'm sure you can find some recon pilots and get your newguys into drakes. You're able to engage gangs much larger then yours and it can be done with 8dudes or 20+ dudes(with mostly the drake numbers increasing so you won't giant ammounts of sp) Helps to have competent scimi pilots too. It's very true that drakes are very much the flavor of this season. As a ship, it has always been almost disproportionately easy to train for, quickly attaining a large tank with decent damage output. So, what you say is perhaps true, but I think that there are much more flexible and powerful gang compositions to aspire to that don't simply rely on the current zeitgeist of nullsec fleet combat. I much prefer skilling for those. On February 19 2011 21:03 KwarK wrote: We know thanks. Speaking of broken records: Kwark, the bulk of your contributions on this page are you irritably informing us that people already know what we are saying. This is what's known as a debate, and saying that over and over doesn't really add anything to the discussion. | ||
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KwarK
United States42978 Posts
On February 19 2011 21:34 Widdershins wrote: Speaking of broken records: Kwark, the bulk of your contributions on this page are you irritably informing us that people already know what we are saying. This is what's known as a debate, and saying that over and over doesn't really add anything to the discussion. The plurality of ships we field are drakes. We run darkside style drake gangs in low and null. That's what we do. Given this, it kind of limits my responses to "maybe you should try drakes". It shows that he didn't even take the time to look at what we were doing before throwing in a bit of random generic advice. If anything my dismissal was too polite. When people go into a strategy forum topic and go "I didn't watch the replay but if you micro better you can sometimes beat your opponent" I ban them. | ||
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bN`
Slovenia504 Posts
It's very true that drakes are very much the flavor of this season. As a ship, it has always been almost disproportionately easy to train for, quickly attaining a large tank with decent damage output. So, what you say is perhaps true, but I think that there are much more flexible and powerful gang compositions to aspire to that don't simply rely on the current zeitgeist of nullsec fleet combat. I much prefer skilling for those. If by current zeitgeist you mean the last 15months then yeah, darkside is totally FOTM. As far as flexibilty goes it's harder to find a more flexible fleet in under 30man numbers. Powerwise sure the drake looks crap in eft(wink wink) doing 400dps on paper except people forget the drake does 400dps at all ranges up to 80km. Something turrent ships can't pull off(I guess maybe pulseapocs but sicne phreeze left nc a while ago noone flies that :>) | ||
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s_side
United States700 Posts
On February 19 2011 18:15 graph1k wrote: If you want to copy people: Pandemic Legion are a good place to start. Most of their fits are gang oriented but if you look at the fits Genos members fly solo you can find some awesome solo/small gang pvp fits. Club Bear are another corp who are almost all inactive now but their members were some of the best lowsec pvpers in the game.Kil2 made some amazing videos and his fits work very well. Also search for Gneeznow. If you're copying fits from PL, make sure you're copying fits from one of their better corps like HABIT. Fwiw, though, there haven't been many examples ofpeople copying PL fleets to good effect. vOv | ||
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Body_Shield
Canada3368 Posts
On February 19 2011 20:20 Johnny Business wrote: Too bad none of the Amarr battleships fit in our fleet t.t Only 110 more days and then I will be one | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34493 Posts
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Widdershins
51 Posts
On February 19 2011 21:45 KwarK wrote: The plurality of ships we field are drakes. We run darkside style drake gangs in low and null. That's what we do. Given this, it kind of limits my responses to "maybe you should try drakes". It shows that he didn't even take the time to look at what we were doing before throwing in a bit of random generic advice. If anything my dismissal was too polite. When people go into a strategy forum topic and go "I didn't watch the replay but if you micro better you can sometimes beat your opponent" I ban them. Yeah, but we're iterating over and discussing relative merits of various gang compositions at the moment. This thread is not about deciding what we think Hatchery should fly. On February 19 2011 21:49 bN` wrote: As far as flexibilty goes it's harder to find a more flexible fleet in under 30man numbers. Alternatively, substitute "fun and interesting" for "flexible." | ||
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Lascero
United States59 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i51.tinypic.com/2eg7jgz.jpg) There's an easier way to do that. | ||
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Body_Shield
Canada3368 Posts
On February 20 2011 00:23 Firebolt145 wrote: You're going straight for a amarr bs? :/ I'm nothing if not ambitiously stupid | ||
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bN`
Slovenia504 Posts
On February 20 2011 00:49 Widdershins wrote: Alternatively, substitute "fun and interesting" for "flexible." "fun and interesting": fun is subjective, if you don't find killing much larger gangs than your own(which you can do with dss) then by all means don't do it. If missiles aren't your thing then certainly don't do it. If you don't like having a clear and simple fleet concept then it probably isn't interesting as well. Might as well join an alliance that after existing for 2years still flies blobs of t1 nanobattlecruisers(AMIRITE KIZU? :>) "fun and interesting" makes no sense at all. You claimed dss lacked power and flexibility which is clearly not true. I'm guessing there's a bunch of guys somewhere that enjoy nothing more than flying a gang of 10rooks throughout lowsec jamming whole gangs while doing ascii in local. To them flying drakes is like choking on dry milk | ||
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KwarK
United States42978 Posts
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