EPTStar Wars - The Old Republic - Page 183
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Durp
Canada3117 Posts
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kukarachaa
United States284 Posts
On January 09 2012 02:07 floor exercise wrote: But in order to perfect those things, they did them the 'wrong' way first, and then worked on refining and making them the right way. Bioware doesn't need to look at how they did it the first time, they don't need to follow the footsteps, they just need to look at the way it is now, and either copy or preferably make an improved version. WoW development is A -> B -> C -> D TOR development should be D -> E, not start over at the beginning like they did for 90% of the stuff in this game. Or in some cases start with something worse, like the UI and lack of mods. WoW has 10 + years of man hours and subscription fees to help it get to D u cant expect TOR to be at D right away, probably B but to expect TOR to be ahead or on the same lvl as WoW is silly, i like a lot of thins that TOR did and i think with some more development it has a tone of potential. | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34502 Posts
Things like UI and game mechanics should at least be at C. | ||
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Laids
United Kingdom596 Posts
WoW has 10 + years of man hours and subscription fees to help it get to D u cant expect TOR to be at D right away, probably B but to expect TOR to be ahead or on the same lvl as WoW is silly, i like a lot of thins that TOR did and i think with some more development it has a tone of potential. Rift has been out for less than a year and already has every system WoW has bar arenas. Rift on launch had more challenging content than ToR has now, it had better PvP, better class structure, Better graphics (ToR graphics are fine, but high is locked to medium right now, wtf?). ToR probably had double the investment or more than Rift did and quite frankly all I'm seeing is a game that invested more into it's voice talent than the actual game itself. I'm not saying Rift is on par with WoW, it's not, but it's damn close. Closer than any other game has gotten. So how did Rift manage it in less than a year, but ToR feels unfinished and pushed out the door. Sure Rift had servers issues much like ToR did on launch, but at least I had WoW level responsiveness from my abilities and each and every new dungeon I entered felt completely different, in addition to having great and varied art.design and boss design. Bioware has made a game that sacrifices on the game systems for the story and voice acting and I don't know how that's going to help them in the long run, it's undeniable. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
The 10 years comes from making one iteration of a feature, seeing it in action, realizing there is room for improvement, and making the next. This is all work that is done for TOR, and they failed to capitalize on it. If you start at the latest iteration you can recreate it in a significantly shorter amount of time because you don't take 10 years making the same fucking mistakes before getting there. That's how we as a society are not stuck living in caves to this day Why wasn't WoW just Everquest if apparently you must start at square 1 every time you make a game? | ||
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topoulo
253 Posts
expect empty servers at the end of first month, in europe most are standard already and no queues. Do you remember how ti was with wow ( which is the only expanding mmo in the recent history , thus the late 7 years ?) instead of adding server they will start merging soon. Which comes another point that republic is a joke compare to empire in everything form quest zones ,( i mean srsly coruscant and naar shadar is the worst zones ever crated for xp SO FREAKING BORING) end game armors ... what a joke , quests overall etc etc. No wonder Republic is empty in most standard servers. I unsubscribed and i know many more that will either have or will do soon. Game is trash , the pvp is horrible , Game should have been in beta for couple of years , voice over my ass couldnt have they focused on anything more useless ? | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On January 09 2012 03:06 topoulo wrote: expect empty servers at the end of first month, in europe most are standard already and no queues. 8 servers standard. From 90 (?) total? That's not even 10% ;p 7 servers with queue. | ||
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MisterD
Germany1338 Posts
 How anyone can seriously complain about pvp is just beyond me. This is a PvE game in the likes of early WoW. How can anyone expect good pvp from that? seriously. From my current feeling, the way you should play this game is kind of mass effect ish with mmo-style quests and minimap. Which means you play until it's done and then you stop. Yes, sure, you can do lvl50 pvp day in day out once you are done with the story content, but really, why would you pick a pve game to do that? if you want to pvp, go play a different game. Simple as that. I can't do any qualified comments on end game because i'm currently just at level 39 or something on a republic vanguard trooper, but i can clearly notice a distinctive playstyle to that class and to the story line that belongs to that class. Playing through the story does give me a certain feeling to want to play at least one other class through it's story on imperial side, just because from the trooper point of view the republic is so evil and they should be killing each other all the time. That kinda makes me want to see the other side. So i think i will probably run that trooper to the end of the story and then run maybe another rep class through it's story and one imp class for now. if i like the other classes i might actually go through even more, because there is in the end 8 different stories to play through. I do expect repeating the same side quests along each main story will become very annoying, so i don't think i will play through all classes on each side. But still, the story content is worth the time to play through it. One thing i do seriously criticize is the mix-in of crafting with that leveling story centered play style. assuming you don't want to play pvp after the story content because it's horribad, crafting just seems completely pointless. I keep my gear high enough for questing simply by questing and just drag up my crafting skills along the way, because once you get to the point where your equip actually starts to matter, crafting might actually become relevant. But at the same time, once you are at that point where your equipment starts to matter because it no longer becomes obsolete due to just leveling up, the game is pretty much over and you don't need any more gear because you don't have any content to play anymore. However this is just theoretical thinking of me, as i said i'm not at end game yet. The question that remains is if it's worth the money it costs. Currently estimating, it took me two weeks to get to 40 with that trooper, now with holidays being gone, on a casual level you can play through one class story in about a month i guess, on a more "hardcode gamer" level, you can probably do it in two weeks, especially if people start figuring out how to get through faster over the next few weeks. So in the end, you pay your 50 to 60 monies (or whatever in your local currency) for getting the game and another about 15 per month in order to keep playing. So you have to decide if you want to pay that much for playing mass effect with co-op possibilities. Depending on what you play, you might end up paying initial purchase free month + 7 months making 50+7*15 + maybe another month doing end game and other random stuff, you end up at around 175 monies (again depending on currency) if you play through all 8 stories on a casual level. But i think that's really what it comes down to. A really expensive, but at the same time really extensive, story centered game. You may consider that you can side-track a bit with some pvp occasionally, but ultimately, this is a pve story game and not a pvp game, so don't play it just to skip all dialogue and then whine about bad lvl50 pvp. It became very clear that that's what you have to expect from this game after the NDA lift, and it is obviously very clear now. Everyone who goes and buys this game today for having something with end level pvp is, frankly, just an idiot. I can get behind people who preordered with these hopes in mind now being a tad angry that it doesn't meet their expectations. That's perfectly fine and you are allowed to do so. But i don't think it's justified to just hate on this title for not providing proper pvp. If you are out for pvp, this game is not for you. If you are out for pve and story, games like mass effect, than this game might be for you and you can start thinking if you are willing to play it for the price it costs and with that - for story games - weird payment model. But don't buy it expecting pvp and then spread hate and rage and talk about it like it's the worst thing ever created. That's just stupid and pointless. The story content is imo worth the time to be played, the monetary cost is questionable due to the lack of end game quality, as in the relatively basic tank&spank nature of raids (from what i have heard so far, not yet played these much myself) and the not-so-bright pvp. But if you like the story, just decide based upon that if you want to put up the money and don't consider pvp quality in your decision. You can try some pvp once you have the game, to mix up the questing a little, but you definitely should not put your focus on it, that just won't work out. tldr: if you want pvp, go away, play something else, stop hating. if you want mass effect like story based gaming, think if you want to spend up to 200 monies (depending on currency) to play through up to 8 distinct stories in the same game. Maybe until then there is some cool end game content like working and sufficiently balanced pvp or interesting raids to keep you playing further, but don't count on it and absolutely certainly do NOT have that as your main incentive to play the game from the beginning! | ||
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r00ty
Germany1066 Posts
I didn't buy it, but lots of friends are playing and trying to pull me in, but the game still seems not really good at all. Our discussions with me being critic usually end in "....yeee this and that sucks, but there's lightsabers!". One thing that really bugs me about the good story and fully voiced NPC's is, that it will delay content patches quite a bit, won't it? Also why focus on all this "single player stuff", when it's a MMO? I always thought MMOs are about interacting with other players and not with the NPCs... I'll still follow the development in the next months, but i think they chose the wrong approach when starting to design the game and missed out on too many important aspects for a 2011/12 MMO. Also some kind of gameplay innovation would have been nice! I was looking forward the most for the space combat (when announced it didn't sound like a stupid daily mini game). I think it should be possible to implement a full scale space combat system (X-Wing/TIE-Fighter like) with PvP in game like this nowadays. Imagine the awesomeness! Buying and tweaking space ships, battling the space combat skills and designs of other players... Well that train passed unfortunately. Enjoy the game, but stay critic everybody and keep bugging the developers so it evolves. | ||
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ampson
United States2355 Posts
My problems with the game: Engine is sub-par. Game takes a while to respond to your commands (noticeable in PvP especially) Class system is barely customizable. There's essentially 8 classes with 3 trees for each, but the trees are so straightfoward that any one person's will be the same as any other person's. I don't like the graphics style, but that's just me. I feel like the story is way too important to the game. I like to PvP my way up, and I always ended up way too high level for the story quests which you pretty much need to do. 1-50 PvP is just stupid, even with bolstering. I did however, like the crafting/companion system. The quests are better than average MMO quests (not by much, but still). The main story is pretty cool, PvP is kinda balanced. It could be good later on in it's development. | ||
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Alay
United States660 Posts
On January 08 2012 17:03 Aflixion wrote: To be honest, if you prefer "sandbox"-style gaming, this game is probably not for you. It was designed right off the bat as a "themepark"-style game, where your path is already laid out in front of you and you make your choices along that path. I feel like I'm the exact opposite of you in this regard. I didn't like SWG for exactly that reason. I don't enjoy sandbox style games (Elder Scrolls series included). I'd prefer to play through a story that's already been written and experience it that way. With regard to the MMO aspect, I haven't experienced anything lacking on that part. The only time I felt alone was on the high level planets (40+) but that's because of the fact that there's almost nobody else at that level. The lower level planets have always been packed, even at odd hours. I even run into people all over the place despite the planet instancing. The game's main selling point throughout its advertising campaign has always been the story. If you don't enjoy that time period, you likely won't enjoy the game. I will say, though, that even without following the lore religiously pre-launch (I only read a couple of the comics a few years ago and none of the novels), I still enjoyed the Jedi Knight story immensely. When I realized how well-connected the main characters were to the KOTOR storyline, I nearly shat myself. That's just me, though. Your mileage may vary. Thanks for the reply. I may still give it a shot to say I did. I'm just really looking for an RPG Star Wars since SWG got nuked--the game really sucked, but at least it had a decent niche community for RP. | ||
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LaNague
Germany9118 Posts
Because Aion and EQ2 worked basically in the same way, ypu press a button, it does its animation and when that is finished, you get your results. Only that Aion and EQ2 dont have global cooldown? Is the problem that things dont happen as soon as you press a button or is it something else that completely eluded me? Also, i totally get why people expect certain things. I mean when you basically clone the genre leader into another setting, people expect all those features. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On January 09 2012 05:13 LaNague wrote: what is this ability delay? Is this a WoW thing? No, this is an SWTOR issue. Basically, all abilities have a certain delay of being executed. Even if you have an instant abilty (that has no casting time or channeling), it will be delayed by a couple of hundreds of milliseconds. Apart from unresponsive feeling, this causes some other combat bugs as well. For example, if you use abilities in rapid succession, it can often happen that abilites which aren't supposed to trigger the global cooldown do it anyways. Or it happens that your character plays the animation and channels an ability, but doesn't actually execute it. Sometimes it locks up your abilities in general and you can't use any more until you have moved around a bit. All kinds of stuff like that. | ||
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broz0rs
United States2294 Posts
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=140954 + Show Spoiler + basically, high texture graphics is bugged and will mostly display on medium settings | ||
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Quenchiest
Canada286 Posts
On January 09 2012 05:26 heishe wrote: No, this is an SWTOR issue. Basically, all abilities have a certain delay of being executed. Even if you have an instant abilty (that has no casting time or channeling), it will be delayed by a couple of hundreds of milliseconds. Apart from unresponsive feeling, this causes some other combat bugs as well. For example, if you use abilities in rapid succession, it can often happen that abilites which aren't supposed to trigger the global cooldown do it anyways. Or it happens that your character plays the animation and channels an ability, but doesn't actually execute it. Sometimes it locks up your abilities in general and you can't use any more until you have moved around a bit. All kinds of stuff like that. Essentially the main problem with the ability delay is that the game requires the full animation of the attack to complete before you can use the next one. Instant attacks become non-instant because of the animation, and if you try to use an ability after the GCD is finished, but before the animation of the previous ability ability has finished, sometimes you'll trigger the GCD without anything happening. Also, you can't clip the animation of every attack with an instant like you can in WoW. If you're doing something, and an enemy starts casting and you hit your interrupt ability there's a high chance you won't use it because it's still waiting for the animation of the ability you were using to finish. Also, because of how the animation differ on abilities for empire and republic, this has lead to some of the mirror classes having gross advantages over their counterparts. Mostly being in favor of empire characters. It's a huge issue that needs to be fixed. | ||
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LaNague
Germany9118 Posts
For example Aions whole combat system is based around animations, but you come from WoW and are used to animations playing no part in whats actually happening. This is what i meant with WoW thingy, its a problem when you are only used to the WoW way of combat. Ill be fascinated if Bioware changes their whole combat system based on ex WoW players complaining in forums. Players should also be alarmed of they do because that means they have absolutely no idea what they are doing and especially they have no vision of what they want combat to be like. | ||
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Quenchiest
Canada286 Posts
On January 09 2012 06:19 LaNague wrote: ok so basically the issue is that the combat isnt like WoW. For example Aions whole combat system is based around animations, but you come from WoW and are used to animations playing no part in whats actually happening. This is what i meant with WoW thingy, its a problem when you are only used to the WoW way of combat. Ill be fascinated if Bioware changes their whole combat system based on ex WoW players complaining in forums. Players should also be alarmed of they do because that means they have absolutely no idea what they are doing and especially they have no vision of what they want combat to be like. BioWares already said they're looking into the issue and will be rolling out fixes/changes within the month to address it. What they're actually going to do though is unknown. That siad, If animations were supposed to be the main focal point in abilities BioWare would have at least balanced it for both factions. As already said, as it stands, Empire holds an incredible advantage over the Republic with most abilities. Also, if it was intended that the entire animation is supposed to happen for abilities, why can some be clipped with instants and others can't? There's a lot of issues with the system. It's not just WoW players not being used to a new system. | ||
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Laids
United Kingdom596 Posts
Ill be fascinated if Bioware changes their whole combat system based on ex WoW players complaining in forums. Players should also be alarmed of they do because that means they have absolutely no idea what they are doing and especially they have no vision of what they want combat to be like. WoW combat is fluid and responsive, this is a GOOD thing, anything other than responsive combat is BAD. Imagine if Starcraft 2 had a delay from using abilities to them actually going off, you can't call that a 'style' of responsiveness, it's just bad coding. Defending the awful combat is denial to the max. If Biowares 'vision' of combat is basically a mirror of LOTRO's then they can kiss the thousands of subs good bye, because people aren't going to deal with it. | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
On January 09 2012 06:37 Laids wrote: WoW combat is fluid and responsive, this is a GOOD thing, anything other than responsive combat is BAD. Imagine if Starcraft 2 had a delay from using abilities to them actually going off, you can't call that a 'style' of responsiveness, it's just bad coding. Defending the awful combat is denial to the max. If Biowares 'vision' of combat is basically a mirror of LOTRO's then they can kiss the thousands of subs good bye, because people aren't going to deal with it. Warhammer had a similar problem at launch. They were not able to fix it. they lost 800,000 subs after the first month and they game is basically dead now. They need to fix it, and fix it fast. How they can even consider releasing a game that they damn well know has the delay is beyond me. Its almost like they were to far into developement and couldnt go back and were just hoping nobody would notice. | ||
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Vortok
United States830 Posts
Played through the first Smuggler planet. Save for one super insane, crazy scientist (Ugnaught Assassins are in the trees!) it felt rather uninspired. All about getting the Smuggler's ship back, which means it would continue being the main story through the next planet... don't know if I can suffer through it that far in hopes it gets interesting after that. Kinda amusing as we're used to MMO characters taking awhile to get off the ground (go kill 10 rats!) but compared to the other class intros I've played and/or seen it just takes so much longer to get off the ground. Part of the problem is I was led to believe (by dev hype I think, so lol me) that the Smuggler was more action packed than other stories... and thus far it's been the least action packed. Oh yeah, and you can run through a minefield (once) as a quest and blow yourself up if rng goes wrong. Yay for a gambling quest for Smugglers, I guess. First companion is a pisschugger, too. More likely that my personality just doesn't mesh with the tone they were going for with the Smuggler class. I think it's partially because the Smuggler (much like a Bounty Hunter) doesn't actually have a specific faction tie so it's harder to really initially connect them to the Republic outside of 'hail citizen, ready for some freelance work?' every few quests. Smuggler can cover such a wide range of character personalities/values it almost has to be a tad vague. Also, I've determined that Twi'lek females don't look particularly good to me. Females need hair on their head and lekku brain tails simply don't count. | ||
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