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On August 24 2008 13:06 MYM.Testie wrote:
The point is I thought somebody who I know wasn't that good was bragging and bragged over him and in going further into the pissing contest I made an ass out of myself but also showed Judicator what a moron he is, while ack posted in a fairly polite manner considering my abrasive and obnoxious tone and diffused said situation while throwing some barbs (well deserved) my way.
In the end I can't really continue the shit talk without a more motivational post to continue said shit talk, so it does not look like any interesting grudge match will come out of it unless that pussy Judicator steps up to the plate.
And as I was saying, none of those factors are remotely impressive to a meepo player of my caliber Judicator. Hence, come play us.
I have and after watching your players fail at 3v1 gank with my sven with a dd because your lion couldn't chain a stun at level 1 against some stunless INT hero, I lost any will to play with TL. Ack may have the patience to play with you guys, I really don't. If you really want to play that badly set it up with Ack, he still leads JLIG as far as I am concerned.
Like I said before, I know what kind of environment you guys play in, and I am well aware of what level you guys are at.
And testie, meepo player of your caliber doesn't mean much when all you have played is TL in houses; big fish in a small pond mentality stunts your growth.
And BlueRoyal, yes I meant the only US teams that seem to perform is Shakens, x6, and (accidentally left off) EG. Every other team spends more time forum trolling than playing up.
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Sigh.....drop it man.
There's nothing to be solved. Each party is convinced of something that's not gonna get changed.
You know as well as I do there's no jlig team anymore, and I wouldn't put it past the regulars who play in our tdas to mess up like you described in that TL ggc game. It was one instance, to be fair. Shit happens in dota.
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On August 25 2008 09:29 Chewits wrote:Speaking of competitive play, and seeing this is the replays thread. I was hoping for some Wise words from the good players here. This was our first game of Dota-leagues Pick League for thew new season. We were Sent. Basically, I thought we played good up to a point, then we got paranoid and didint push hard enough. MY question is this, what do you do vs tower huggers? And how could myself and my team won this game? Where did we go wrong, and how can we improve it? I thought it was quite a close game, untill we let DK get too strong. We focused Void alot, and he was pretty useless, but didn't focus DK enough. But I also think, the game should have ended before DK hits his prime time (after lvl 16). Also, what do you think of our Bans and picks? I felt that they banned Omni and Es, and made me think they wanted to play Brood. Or why else would a team ban Omni so early? Here is replay - http://www.dota-allstars.com/replay/58319/index.htmlPicks/Bans in order Sentinel Bans: Rexxar, NA, Silencer, Brood Scourge Bans: QoP, Omni, ES, Zeus Sentinel Picks: WL, Lina, Sven, SF, Tide Scourge Picks: Dazzle, Potm, DK, Lich, Void Enjoy the game I hope!
I can't watch right now, so I am gonna have to theorycraft a little...
First off, weird bans, I can understand the Silencer ban with your line up but not really necessary, their bans is a little weird/probably what they were feeling at the time, although that Zeus ban is nice considering their eventual line up. And Omni if you haven't realized is near broken with his recent buffs, it doesn't mean Brood, if they picked up that Omni for that DK, their mid game would be relatively ALOT smoother.
Here's why, your lanes >>>>>>> their lanes. PotM versus SF, dodge the arrow and SF has free farm the entire way. Scourge should not be able to rotate help against SF because (again assuming here) their side lanes will be VERY defensive, basically pairing up Lich and SP with a melee. Lich top to creep pull and SP bottom to be sturdier against forest side gank. If they tower hug, you have two options and depending on your team's skill level you can do either. Focus on creep score, get farmed, fast. If creeps are constantly pushing up on their tower creep pull, you can do this in all but mid lane on Sent but only top (normally) on Scourge. Or if you have the AoE capacity, push down that tower. The other option is imo riskier, but assuming the solo mid setup, rotate a hero out to pick up runes and really limit their solo as well as shifting the creep wave back away from their tower. The problem with that is it lets their top lane pull at will and you lose farm for one hero. If they creep pull to keep the wave on the tower, then ward the creep spawn.
Quite honestly, it just sounds like you realize you have a better team and lineup but you are impatient in lanes; farm when you are given the chance, because their CS should not be anywhere near yours if they are tower hugging. Plus you have the mid game advantage, time a push (your lock is underleveled though) mid game and beat them down 5v5 or 5v4 if their DK/FV wises up. Focusing the FV isn't the smartest idea unless you are denying them a Chrono, FV is still one of the slowest farmers in the game, DK if he knows how to AoE properly, will power through a weak early game, Void has a much harder time so killing him isn't that big of a deal. Especially since if you reach end game, SP + Armor + Chrono will be very hard to stop even with a DK that's a little underfarmed.
The only 2 ways I see them winning based on hero line ups is that you messed up your mid game completely or they really moved that PotM around ALOT early game, but a quick ward by lock should/could have limited that.
Two (old) replays that remind me of your match from a line up point of view. MYM's infamous "decide to go for stronger lanes" match where they had lane match ups (by the balls considering the quality of their players) and the other team (probably VP?) just worked through the laning phase and still won because of mean carries. Then there's KingSurf's have Luna + Cent and I think TB carry and still lose in end game because of good decision making by the opposing team, XCN (now fnatic). Maybe someone remembers these matches and can tell you exactly which ones.
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-Sven/Lina should be sent bottom. Also not aggressive enough at all. Sven/Lina's strength lies in dual stun which isn't even that good anymore since the .48 versions. Your team also didn't even make use of the regen [ that graciously happened to spawn top ] You should've gone at level 1 with your stuns on sp to force him to use mana and be defensive, then pick up the regen. Voila top lane is yours.
-First blood happened because of the above point, you weren't aggressive so was just a matter of time before they could turn on your passive play.
+Gj ganking void pulling creeps, this is exactly how you need to play as soon as you get in the lane.
-Your warlock likes casting shadow word on creeps? O_o
-Your levi probably would've done a lot better if he went stats gush.
-Lina needs to learn to deny when there's no pressure on her at all. Top 1st tower
-SF probably could've gotten something other than travels first. Travels first is usually only good when your outer towers are still up.
+Good push on the tower at 26
-Better infernal control. Fed infernal every time after team fights ended, also didn't last hit outer mid tower.
-Too much chasing in team fights, particularly lina and sven. Would always get caught in chrono excluding that team fight mid @ 23.
-You godstrenghted when you had a dd. You know they don't stack right?
+Paused the replay at 45 after you guys downed roshan. At this point you guys have a pretty tight lock on the game, you should push lets see what happens.
-Team fight at 49 was a disaster. I don't think you guys call who to target. Everyone was hitting somebody different. Not a good idea against a team of DK/Void/Potm dps.
All the points above are minor things I thought of while watching, here's the big reasons that contributed to your loss.
-Team fights were pretty good like you thought up till 45. You ran way too many 5 man pain trains against a team with Potm and Void. Especially void. You simply don't do that shit, he time walks in and chronos its gg. Try changing up your strategy into more of a pushing split strategy next time when you have an advantage like you did immediately after you downed rosh. Either that or don't ' show your hand ' in big team fights until you know the location of lich/void. It's not good to stand together either ;<
-Your ult timings were really off, or wasted completely by potm's invis. I don't think I saw a single sentry for team fights. Levi would ulti way too early or lock would infernal way too late.
-You lost, but don't feel too bad your team played a good game. It was an inevitable loss seeing as how dk was left alone for the most part to farm against your weakest played lane which was bot levi+lock. Again refer to the very first point, Sven/Lina are REALLY strong sent bot and scourge top. Shallow grave is a bitch. Chain frost+chrono is an even bigger bitch.
It was a gg and your nevermore did a pretty good job seeing as to what he was up against late game. They simply had better late game than you guys. DK+Void with SP is just gg as expected past 40 minutes. Maybe if your levi was able to farm LightOfHeaven style you could overcome that, but that's the nature of Shallow Grave and I guess you can be thankful in the new versions SP is changed completely.
Again, all of this was just my view since you asked for it, did not mean to offend with anything I said. It is all stuff I would say to my own teammates/myself.
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Northern Ireland1200 Posts
Thanks ALOT. I really do appreciate that and it is not offensive at all.
I am interested in what you say about team fights. Are you saying that when faced with hereos such as Potm and Void (who both can "blink" in/out), that we should not really try to gang with all 5, but instead split up and gang in smallers groups of 2-3 ? Or try to ward better and catch out the other heroes first?
I do feel that our problems lie in mid-end game. We just cant seem to end a game, when we have the advantage. Better organization? Just more experience? When I look back, I cant help feel that Warlock should be firing his ulti at tower on ramp when we pushing, tide running in quickly behind to follow up with everyone else and pew pew do your shit. But for whatever reason, this never happened.
Regards Sven/Lina, I had it in my head that Sven/Lina was better top as Sven could tank the tower when fighting. I will have to try it other way round as suggested. Also, i was near 99% positive that Svens Ulti was reworked a few versions back so it was stackable with DD. Or is it you gotta cast Ulti then DD ?
Regarding BoT on SF early item comment - I am not sure i understand why its a bad first item? I thought its good for him to get to farm and be mobile to gang and push/def ?
Thanks again, will relay back to the guys =]
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He farms enough as it is unless he is against a very very good dual stunner lane.
Lothars -> BoT -> Change your items up depending on their lineup. Sometimes you want some extra hp, so you go skadi right after as it changes nothing. Sometimes you don't need the hp, so you can go mjoll/otherDPS item. i.e. stygian / cuirrass : mjoll/skadi etc. That's something you use your discretion for game to game as he is fairly versatile.
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On August 26 2008 10:00 Chewits wrote:
Thanks ALOT. I really do appreciate that and it is not offensive at all.
I am interested in what you say about team fights. Are you saying that when faced with hereos such as Potm and Void (who both can "blink" in/out), that we should not really try to gang with all 5, but instead split up and gang in smallers groups of 2-3 ? Or try to ward better and catch out the other heroes first?
I do feel that our problems lie in mid-end game. We just cant seem to end a game, when we have the advantage. Better organization? Just more experience? When I look back, I cant help feel that Warlock should be firing his ulti at tower on ramp when we pushing, tide running in quickly behind to follow up with everyone else and pew pew do your shit. But for whatever reason, this never happened.
Regards Sven/Lina, I had it in my head that Sven/Lina was better top as Sven could tank the tower when fighting. I will have to try it other way round as suggested. Also, i was near 99% positive that Svens Ulti was reworked a few versions back so it was stackable with DD. Or is it you gotta cast Ulti then DD ?
Regarding BoT on SF early item comment - I am not sure i understand why its a bad first item? I thought its good for him to get to farm and be mobile to gang and push/def ?
Thanks again, will relay back to the guys =]
Against Void you shouldn't run pain trains of 5 man ganks. It just doesn't work out well because even with one other aoe [ lich potm dk ult+breath ] you're asking to get raped. Its better to spot void with wards and target him THEN run the 5 man. Otherwise its better to split up and force them to choose fights. It's either this or disables with sheeps. Something you didn't have enough of.
The more advanced/risky option is to bait and learn how to position your team better so you're spaced out, but that's hard to do and sheeping is better anyway =)
You're right in thinking sven can tank the tower, but think about sven/lina bot. If you come to the lane after a monster block lower and then immediately start stunning and playing aggressive at level 1 they will be forced back and get no xp. They will sit there with their thumbs up their ass being able to do nothing.
Your mid game should involve more discussion on who to target in team fights, but yeah one thing I missed in my last post was disables but its not like the heroes you had could really go sheep. Lock was too poor. Also sentries for team fights since you have no globals to finish off weak heroes.
The BoT on SF was covered by Testie.
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Northern Ireland1200 Posts
Yeah I seen that Warlock was pretty under lvled. Regarding that game, who SHOULD we have been focusing first in them fights?
Do you think that, instead of Tide, swap him with Centaur and then Centaur could jungle, giving warlock a solo lane? Swapping lina/sven to down lane with Centaur helping gang. Then when mid game comes, Centaur will have a blink to initiate and allowing Warlock to solo, will allow him to be more powerful in mid game?
On another note, regarding Jungling, I have noticed from Jungling recently in games that Scourge seems to be much faster to jungle. You can pull top spawn run to top left and pull it to creeps too, then you have not far to walk to the "easy" camp in centre. But with Sentinel the "easy" camp is further away. I just noticed that it seems alot slower. You gotta use a Tango to open trees up to pull the other camp to creeps, which can be tricky, and you miss out on last hitting some of the neutrals. Maybe I just need to practice more or I am missing out on something 
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Its really rewarding to see that everything is beginning to click for you!
Its really hard to say who to target exactly since you had no disables but I would probably aim for Lich/SP/PotM in that order. Maybe switch potm and sp if you're able to keep down potm's leap. The frost armor and chain frost were killing you guys. DK was too big to kill at that point.
The tide for centaur is a good idea, but tide can also jungle! Just go anchor smash gush and creeps melt pretty much. I believe there's a guide on D-A for jungle tidehunter. Centaur really could have worked here too but then again I think your team fights may have been a bit more limited/unfavorable seeing as how the game turned out. Also big yes to the sven/lina bot + cent in jungle. You pretty much have bottom fucked over then. Even if they come to the jungle to fight centaur, its fucking centaur so he could tank enough for lina and sven to get there.
For a while its been pretty widely regarded that scourge jungle > sent jungle. Probably since the .43 versions. I always preferred the scourge terrain because it seems on scourge side you're always looking down the ramps on that side whereas sent side you have to go up a lot of ramps. Might just be perspective ><
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ks vs zenith - eswc final
sickkk game - lots of nice moves (i especially like what they do at 36min mark...so rofl). it's going to be a while before our ih's reach this level of coordination T_T;;
but yeah more cw's please, competitive dota looks mega fun
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Really surprised at the outcome of eswc, I guess Asian Dota has more depth than people think. Also the Chinese ehome just won 2008 asian wcg dota
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amazingly, i prefer sent jungle with certain heroes (furion/axe/ds esp) and scourge i prefer with other heroes (ursa/chen/ench). It seems more in order to me for them since furi/ds/axe can pull all three sent camps at same time while at scourge it takes longer to get to those camps, making ursa/chen/ench more useful since they can do circles and jungle very well. Also, the troll warlords are possibly the most imba creep when it comes to chen/ench jungling. raise dead makes jungle so easy with them, that i start out leveling solos at 5-7 instead of with axe/ds at 10/11.
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I still don't know how to jungle efficiently 
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On August 29 2008 12:59 zulu_nation8 wrote:I still don't know how to jungle efficiently
learn then! it's not hard. just learn basic jungle facts, then once u know those, remember to always keep killing (i.e. dont mess up spawns), keep track of the rune on your side and help gank top scour/bot sent
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I mean I've watched plenty of replays but I just haven't done it a lot. I still don't know the spawning times by heart. But I know how to like pull creeps to two groups of neutrals. Pull neutrals, etc. Buy a stout shield, help gank the solo lane you're next to, get runes, etc. Just lack practice. Jungling is fantastic for lots of lineups. When I pick Tidehunter now I always try to have it jungle to free up a lane for a qop or something.
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is awesome32274 Posts
Try it in single player first, so you can restart to fine tune your item shopping, while farming, how to pull and watch the clock.
Once you are done with that try it in a real game with people trying to gank you or you trying to gank.
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biggest times are for pulling creeps, pull at 15-17, or 45-47 for scourge top/sent btm. pulling at 52/53 (51 in day time for purge camps) to double stack. But you have to pull the correct way, some times when you pull some camps a certain way they dont double stack.
note: all camps respawn at the minute mark, pending no creep has been killed in the spawn checking area since :42
best way for me is:
Scourge: L1 camp and L5 camp next to it, pull and go to ramp at top tower, at 7 seconds they are at edge of forest and return to camp.
L3 camp, pull and run right up ramp to stack.
L3 camp you can pull to creeps. pull and run right.
L5 camp, pull and run right.
Sent: L5 camp near mid lane, pull left.
L1 camp pull up ramp and just run right til they retreat
L5 camp at btm, pull left past trees and head down path to btm tower
L3 camp that can be pulled, pull left or right
L3 camp thats near river, pull right or left.
Once you get good you can use heroes that have summons to pull multiple camps at once. I can pull 2 fine, but pulling 3 camps at once is harder.
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1-5 are in order from left to right or something?
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no, its the level camps, easy camp is L1, mediums L3, hard L5. they spawn those level creeps at them.
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EPT
