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I can't believe I wasn't in this thread earlier on. (It makes sense because I started with HoN and not Dota) There were actually quality posts about the game.
+ Show Spoiler [Old Post] +On August 27 2009 07:26 MYM.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2009 05:58 Tadzio wrote:On August 27 2009 05:07 MYM.Testie wrote:
The wrong attitude is also detrimental. Pet peeve: "Why did you *insert fuck up here*, you fucking noob?!" It's difficult to suck something like that up and not go into denial and anger-- or worse, self-loathing. . If any player has this kind of reaction to someone's very on the mark accusation of a fuck up, and they go into any of these modes they are immediately cut from the team. We don't need sissies who can't hack the game. Yeah it can usually go about it in a nice way, but if someone fucks up huge or does something that makes no sense it creates rage. Good players need that logical step, when someone does something that defies logic it sends the mind into anger. Because you're like, 'we had a team kill right there and he didn't fucking press a single key that would have won us the game'. So yeah. You say, 'yeah I know I fucked up hard' and move work on it. As rare as it is, I've been raged at and had fingers pointed at me too. I don't say 'WELL U FUCKED UP TOO'. I don't get petty and vindictive. I recognize my mistakes and theirs and just say, 'yeah let's do that again that won't happen next time'. Even Dev recently lost a mid lane he shouldn't have yesterday, but because he UTTERLY FUCKING DESTROYS the mid lane so often we forgive him for his mistakes. As for you Zelniq, no. If you're going to fuck up, you're going to get called out on it, and not in a nice way. Because if what you're doing isn't making sense, it's going to make people angry. ;p
I have exactly the same mentality as Testie. Some of my brother's friends and my friends are all flawed because they don't share this mentality. You try and teach them something (I always have a constructive and positive tone) and they reject it thinking they're perfect. You can't get better if you always think you're perfect. You need to notice when you play imperfectly and correct it.
Since everyone I know is mediocre, or unwilling to improve, I need to find a team. It's not even worth playing with pubs because they're so chancy and you can't correct their mistakes from game to game.
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On May 27 2010 08:03 Dead9 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2010 05:54 JeeJee wrote:
buy all components is pretty frigging useless, is there even a hotkey for it?
if not, still pretty sure pressing qwe is faster >.>
Maybe for items like meka it could be useful since there's items within items though But you probably already have the minor totems so you still gotta do it manually to save 26g obv Does anyone know if there's any reason to take the stances over stats on fayde ?
im pretty sure it's smart enough to take into account what you already have in your inventory. any other implementation would be stupid (well, perhaps i could see reasoning for only checking inventory if your hero is within shop range but still, it definitely has to check inventory)
ill go test it out though
nevermind no it doesn't
lol
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On May 27 2010 08 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 27 2010 08 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:13 Durak wrote:I can't believe I wasn't in this thread earlier on. (It makes sense because I started with HoN and not Dota) There were actually quality posts about the game. + Show Spoiler [Old Post] +On August 27 2009 07:26 MYM.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2009 05:58 Tadzio wrote:On August 27 2009 05:07 MYM.Testie wrote:
The wrong attitude is also detrimental. Pet peeve: "Why did you *insert fuck up here*, you fucking noob?!" It's difficult to suck something like that up and not go into denial and anger-- or worse, self-loathing. . If any player has this kind of reaction to someone's very on the mark accusation of a fuck up, and they go into any of these modes they are immediately cut from the team. We don't need sissies who can't hack the game. Yeah it can usually go about it in a nice way, but if someone fucks up huge or does something that makes no sense it creates rage. Good players need that logical step, when someone does something that defies logic it sends the mind into anger. Because you're like, 'we had a team kill right there and he didn't fucking press a single key that would have won us the game'. So yeah. You say, 'yeah I know I fucked up hard' and move work on it. As rare as it is, I've been raged at and had fingers pointed at me too. I don't say 'WELL U FUCKED UP TOO'. I don't get petty and vindictive. I recognize my mistakes and theirs and just say, 'yeah let's do that again that won't happen next time'. Even Dev recently lost a mid lane he shouldn't have yesterday, but because he UTTERLY FUCKING DESTROYS the mid lane so often we forgive him for his mistakes. As for you Zelniq, no. If you're going to fuck up, you're going to get called out on it, and not in a nice way. Because if what you're doing isn't making sense, it's going to make people angry. ;p I have exactly the same mentality as Testie. Some of my brother's friends and my friends are all flawed because they don't share this mentality. You try and teach them something (I always have a constructive and positive tone) and they reject it thinking they're perfect. You can't get better if you always think you're perfect. You need to notice when you play imperfectly and correct it. Since everyone I know is mediocre, or unwilling to improve, I need to find a team. It's not even worth playing with pubs because they're so chancy and you can't correct their mistakes from game to game.
That's just like my friend always playing agi carries like Zephyr, Engineer etc. despite him being awful at farming(normally like 20-75 CK per game and quite underleveled too even if he has good K/D) and I tell him to play and learn supports and gankers since he just can't farm but he won't listen and is stuck at like 1280 PSR although I think he should be higher... Yeah I don't know :/ I wonder why people don't take advice etc into account and instead are like no I'm right?
Like one game we had a team of noobs against us with a megamegafed torturer(and lvl 23 when the rest of their team was 11-14 and our team like 15-19) on Bloodbath. I told everyone to get shrunken head or shaman's headdress, no one did, we got raped. "Because it's not a part of my build and I like getting frostburn and runed axe"...
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On May 27 2010 08:13 Durak wrote:
I have exactly the same mentality as Testie. Some of my brother's friends and my friends are all flawed because they don't share this mentality. You try and teach them something (I always have a constructive and positive tone) and they reject it thinking they're perfect. You can't get better if you always think you're perfect. You need to notice when you play imperfectly and correct it.
its nice that you realize this for yourself, but as you already stated, most people do not share said mentality and probably never will. its not a very complicated thing and quite logical, you pretty much either understand/derive/discover said mentality for yourself or you will not accept or aquire it at all.
hon is such an easy game to play, you can get by with 1 one click a second and do decent if the decisions you make are just not arbitrarily stupid - but most people already fail doing that because they insist on neglecting their brain while playing what for them is "just a game".
its fine if that is all you want, but as soon as you want to (or should) discuss strategy or just anything transcending your own abilities, it just will not work and make you seem just as smart as you are while playing hon - which is not smart at all.
not sure if it even makes sense to type this, because it too is quite simple and easily figured out, but i felt i had to respond something besides my typical "yes, the end" as it is something i see every minute i play hon.
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On May 27 2010 08:45 Shikyo wrote:
That's just like my friend always playing agi carries like Zephyr, Engineer etc. despite him being awful at farming(normally like 20-75 CK per game and quite underleveled too even if he has good K/D) and I tell him to play and learn supports and gankers since he just can't farm but he won't listen and is stuck at like 1280 PSR although I think he should be higher... Yeah I don't know :/ I wonder why people don't take advice etc into account and instead are like no I'm right?
Your understanding of the game is lacking as well, if your friend can't keep up his cs then it doesn't matter what he plays. It all comes from the CS, pubs will never ever grasp this concept. Even the typical ward bitch, hardcore support player can just start farming when he needs to and they need to be able to deny. Either he learns to last hit or he'll stay at PSR range.
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so like is everyone pro at this game now?
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
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On May 27 2010 10:55 DevAzTaYtA wrote:
so like is everyone pro at this game now?
SC2 or Gunz?
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On May 27 2010 11:17 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2010 10:55 DevAzTaYtA wrote:
so like is everyone pro at this game now? SC2 or Gunz?
I rofle'd
Durak wanna start a team? I'm down. Like for real.
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On May 27 2010 10:23 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2010 08:45 Shikyo wrote:
That's just like my friend always playing agi carries like Zephyr, Engineer etc. despite him being awful at farming(normally like 20-75 CK per game and quite underleveled too even if he has good K/D) and I tell him to play and learn supports and gankers since he just can't farm but he won't listen and is stuck at like 1280 PSR although I think he should be higher... Yeah I don't know :/ I wonder why people don't take advice etc into account and instead are like no I'm right?
Your understanding of the game is lacking as well, if your friend can't keep up his cs then it doesn't matter what he plays. It all comes from the CS, pubs will never ever grasp this concept. Even the typical ward bitch, hardcore support player can just start farming when he needs to and they need to be able to deny. Either he learns to last hit or he'll stay at PSR range.
I agree with your point. However, don't some support chars not need to farm at all? For example, if someone is playing Plague Rider, they shouldn't be farming or last hitting and therefore their CS should be low.
I never played Dota so I'm not sure whether cs (creep stats) includes denies or not so my point may be invalid. If CS includes denies, then obviously PR should have some from deny+extinguish (if that's included). I don't think CK (creep kills) in HoN includes denies.
Here's an example of people not understanding their role. I was playing Sand Wraith and laning with Plague Rider. PR put his first level into his nuke, whereas I think he should start with extinguish to keep creeps at tower, and was trying to steal my last hits. In addition, he took the player kills as well even though I could have finished them.
We ended up winning because we were so much better than them regardless. I still farmed a mock in ~15min. The win just reinforces his incorrect mentality.
Edit:On May 27 2010 11:29 Arhkangel wrote:
Durak wanna start a team? I'm down. Like for real.
I'm busy until ~ June 18th. I'll see what's up after that. I don't think I want to start my own team because I recognize that I still lack a lot of knowledge. I think I have the potential to improve a lot but I'm absolutely not pro or even "good" yet. I'm not sure if I want to figure it out myself in my own team or to try and join some other ones and see how they run things.
Edit2: Oh, I looked it up and CS does include denies. I don't think there's an equivalent HoN stat but you can see both broken down in player stats.
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A support without farm is a complete liability. They need some cs to at least maintain wards boots bracers/power supply town portals and counter wards at times. They shouldn't be taking a majority of farm, but zero farm is out of the question because they will just die over and over again.
Also plague nuke first isn't bad, it really depends on your lane and what you are against, you can secure many fb's with nuke first and plague can push alot of lanes back with level 1 nuke. I really only encourage ritual first if you are being a defensive lane or plague is babysitting in the hard lane.
The big part people seem to not see about supports is that they have to actually be good at last hitting because they should concede free farm to a carry, but when they have the chance to farm they need to make sure they get all of the last hits so they have some farm too.
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On May 27 2010 12:00 Alventenie wrote:
A support without farm is a complete liability. They need some cs to at least maintain wards boots bracers/power supply town portals and counter wards at times. They shouldn't be taking a majority of farm, but zero farm is out of the question because they will just die over and over again.
Also plague nuke first isn't bad, it really depends on your lane and what you are against, you can secure many fb's with nuke first and plague can push alot of lanes back with level 1 nuke. I really only encourage ritual first if you are being a defensive lane or plague is babysitting in the hard lane.
The big part people seem to not see about supports is that they have to actually be good at last hitting because they should concede free farm to a carry, but when they have the chance to farm they need to make sure they get all of the last hits so they have some farm too.
Yeah. That's logical. However, in most "pro" games I've seen (replays and HoN cast basically), PR always has like 40g/min. Isn't that basically just the base gold/minute? 
That's not to say I disagree with your last paragraph. Most supports do need some farm.
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On May 27 2010 12:00 Alventenie wrote:
A support without farm is a complete liability. They need some cs to at least maintain wards boots bracers/power supply town portals and counter wards at times. They shouldn't be taking a majority of farm, but zero farm is out of the question because they will just die over and over again.
Also plague nuke first isn't bad, it really depends on your lane and what you are against, you can secure many fb's with nuke first and plague can push alot of lanes back with level 1 nuke. I really only encourage ritual first if you are being a defensive lane or plague is babysitting in the hard lane.
The big part people seem to not see about supports is that they have to actually be good at last hitting because they should concede free farm to a carry, but when they have the chance to farm they need to make sure they get all of the last hits so they have some farm too.
This. Think a Glacius/CM that spends a lot of time dead and you'll get the idea. Never, ever should a support be a liability and pubs/scrubs never seem to grasp that it is very easy to fall into that very role as a support.
Also, this is why I hate HoN's stat tracking...gold per min, creeps, apm are all very misleading stats. It's an average indicator of performance at best, but people love to think that X gold/min (or any other stat) is the end all which lead to shitty and horrible habits and mindsets. Things that get slapped back into your face the first creep wave in organized play.
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On May 27 2010 12:10 Durak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2010 12:00 Alventenie wrote:
A support without farm is a complete liability. They need some cs to at least maintain wards boots bracers/power supply town portals and counter wards at times. They shouldn't be taking a majority of farm, but zero farm is out of the question because they will just die over and over again.
Also plague nuke first isn't bad, it really depends on your lane and what you are against, you can secure many fb's with nuke first and plague can push alot of lanes back with level 1 nuke. I really only encourage ritual first if you are being a defensive lane or plague is babysitting in the hard lane.
The big part people seem to not see about supports is that they have to actually be good at last hitting because they should concede free farm to a carry, but when they have the chance to farm they need to make sure they get all of the last hits so they have some farm too. Yeah. That's logical. However, in most "pro" games I've seen (replays and HoN cast basically), PR always has like 40g/min. Isn't that basically just the base gold/minute? That's not to say I disagree with your last paragraph. Most supports do need some farm.
i want a link to which replay you saw a "pro" game with a 40g/min plague.
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On May 27 2010 12:10 Durak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2010 12:00 Alventenie wrote:
A support without farm is a complete liability. They need some cs to at least maintain wards boots bracers/power supply town portals and counter wards at times. They shouldn't be taking a majority of farm, but zero farm is out of the question because they will just die over and over again.
Also plague nuke first isn't bad, it really depends on your lane and what you are against, you can secure many fb's with nuke first and plague can push alot of lanes back with level 1 nuke. I really only encourage ritual first if you are being a defensive lane or plague is babysitting in the hard lane.
The big part people seem to not see about supports is that they have to actually be good at last hitting because they should concede free farm to a carry, but when they have the chance to farm they need to make sure they get all of the last hits so they have some farm too. Yeah. That's logical. However, in most "pro" games I've seen (replays and HoN cast basically), PR always has like 40g/min. Isn't that basically just the base gold/minute? That's not to say I disagree with your last paragraph. Most supports do need some farm.
Base g/min is like 66. If a plague is only getting 40 gpm then he isn't trying to get gold. TBH i hate it when people can't farm anything for themselves because after playing lots of game the one thing i figured is that you should try to do stuff all the time. Support standing around not doing anything, pull/stack creeps for your carry/yourself. Pull the lane to kill creeps, deny creeps in waves, do generally whatever to keep creeps near you unless you are pushing because you want to be in a safe spot where you can command a game. Very few times would a plague with 40 gpm be great in a game because i can't imagine him having any items whatsoever, in which case he just feeds and does nothing after he presses r.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
This is the part I fall down at a lot when playing support. People think playing support is the easiest job in the game, but playing a good support requires a lot of knowledge and efficiency.
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On May 27 2010 11:29 Arhkangel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2010 11:17 rabidch wrote:On May 27 2010 10:55 DevAzTaYtA wrote:
so like is everyone pro at this game now? SC2 or Gunz? I rofle'd Durak wanna start a team? I'm down. Like for real.
I'm down, tried to find one on my own with no success. I can be a leader as well, if you wish.
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How do you guys build Puck/Bubbles? Such an awesome fun to play hero. I barely played DotA so I'm really glad he's in HoN!
I saw a couple of tourney matches, and both Bubbles players specced like this:
orb,phase,orb,silence,orb,ult,orb,phase,phase,phase,ult,silence,silence,silence,stats,ult,stats
Bubbles was used as a counter initiator (opponent team had Hellbringer, Vindi, Jerry)
I thought silence would be prioritized over orb. But I guess orb is just a solid nuke when you get it to rank4?
As for items, I have two builds. Both these builds are optimized for pub-play. One poor build and one rich build. If I pubstomp noobs with him I usually get rich by dominating mid. If I'm in a decent level game in a lane however, I go the other one.
Rich build: Boots, bottle, portal key, finish ghost marchers, luxury: kuldra's or frostfield
Poor build: Boots, power supply, finish ghost marchers, tablet of command, luxury
Both builds are based on being able to initiate without dying, synergizing with phase shift in order to escape.
Thoughts/discuss.
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EPT
