|
On March 11 2010 16:08 Alventenie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 14:59 BalloonFight wrote:
You're responding to something I already acknowledged in what I said at first, and something I already know. As I said, I play EM for fun. It's just annoying to see a bunch of players I know I'm better than being elitist dicks. It's like when I see D+ players (as a B or higher player) being an idiot to BGH players (i.e. me, since I certainly came from BGH, and still do play it with friends).
EM and NM is really just a way for NM players to be elitist dicks. S2 needs to separate NM and EM stats so that players can play EM for fun and still maintain their NM % for when they want to play NM so they don't have to swap accounts like I currently have to when I want to play NM solo without having to host. I don't like splitting them, because while you might play both and be above average in NM, if some 90% 200 game EMer thats up over 1700 psr from all EM games joins a NM game, hes gonna get wrecked hardcore by most 1700+ (more specifically 1800+) players that join the game. Its just way to different for most players to handle. You can call NM players elitist dicks, but we have every right to say so when noob EM players go and try to spread strategies based off of EM play, where the game is not balanced around, and no one in competitive play even plays it. So consider yourself an exception, but over 90% of all EM players are just terrible, and really only play well in EM games where you can go 0-10 and still have farm/equal level.
They're elitist dicks because most of them will call EM players horrible without any provocation, just like low money players call BGH players noobs without any reason. It's mostly curbed on this site given the history of low money/BGH. Anyways what I'm saying is having separate EM and NM stats COMPLETELY. You have 2 different PSRs on the account. Join a normal game, all the stats you show on your profile are from NM games. Join EM, same thing.
see what I'm saying? I just don't like having to swap around accounts, and supposedly when they release the game you can't have multiple accounts, so...you see my point.
|
While I'm sure some people see it as a dick-waving superiority thing, but it's all out of bad experiences for most, I can honestly say that every single player that has had more than 40% EM that has joined a 1700 pub I'm in has been absolutely terrible. I obsessively check stats when waiting for the game to fill, too (I have a mod that makes it easier, even). These players generally do not have a clue about hero roles, proper item builds and have lackluster farming ability.
True, same can be said about many people who join any pubs, EM or NM players. But when I see an EM player join, I know he is going to practically ruin the game for his team. That's why I kick them if I'm the host.
I also kick Russians, I have an even worse track record with them.
|
EM is hilariously bad, coming from DotA. Sometimes when I'm bored and want to just stomp a pub I just hop in an EM game, not uncommon for me to hit 20 kills with a beyond godlike streak and my skill level is not high compared to some other TLers.
BTW, EM is more like Fastest instead of BGH. You don't even need to worry about farm/expo and just play the game on "auto". Which is to say the least, inherently unbalanced so EM "balance" is laughable.
|
When i first joined TL hon, i was a em player (mainly because i played dota on and off, and that i started in the em era on bnet.) my first actual non-em game was with bhp, who insisted that if playing it has to be non em. after seeing how much more skills it took (and fun) non em was, i made the permanent change. I have to say, em is a lot like a fastest (but a little more space between the mineral and the cc/nexus/hatch) because no one needs to rice to get good items, and because theres enough money generated, you can do shit like 5 carries and win
|
em is really fucking gay. apem is even worse. does it get any worse in an apem game when everyone fucking chooses the cheapest carries in the game LOL? (HELLO SCOUT!)
what game mode does everyone play? i always play sd, i feel like it's the most balanced that way.
although i've never tried random draft or ban picks. are they more balanced? in fact, what is the most popular game mode that is not AP or EM?
|
I always find SD to be worse than AR, because the possibilities (excluding horrishit teamates) you have poor synergy with your team's picks, you lack a certain role in your pool (ie disablers/initiators) or just get plain outpicked. ofcourse this works both ways, but i still hate it
|
I prefer BP pubs, because there is a higher percentage of good people joining BP games. They join BP games because they don't want people to get five carries, if you know what I'm saying.
|
I play about 80% SDEM. I totally agree with BalloonFight, my friends/brother play EM, and I just enjoy it for the time being. Yes, it's less skilled, but it DOES take many skills that are used in regular games. I'm not particularly good, but I'm okay at lasthitting/denying and can hold my own laning in a normal mode game pubs (like 1600+). I play SD so I don't get retards who instapick scout every game and just KS 100% of the time or guys who just practice 1 hero.. I hate playing the same heroes over and over so I play SD. I only really play normal mode games with TL people (probably played ~10 really) and I've never really lost my team the game (although that's usually cause TL >>> pubs).
|
I play BD or AR mostly. Sometimes I play AP, but only for the extra money on random.
|
On March 11 2010 21:28 Pokebunny wrote:
I play about 80% SDEM. I totally agree with BalloonFight, my friends/brother play EM, and I just enjoy it for the time being. Yes, it's less skilled, but it DOES take many skills that are used in regular games. I'm not particularly good, but I'm okay at lasthitting/denying and can hold my own laning in a normal mode game pubs (like 1600+). I play SD so I don't get retards who instapick scout every game and just KS 100% of the time or guys who just practice 1 hero.. I hate playing the same heroes over and over so I play SD. I only really play normal mode games with TL people (probably played ~10 really) and I've never really lost my team the game (although that's usually cause TL >>> pubs).
yeah the main reason i played sd was that single draft, while at times if i get lucky i can trade with my buddies, but if the odds are against me, then i have to actually be forced to learn a character i don't know.
i think that was probably one of the hardest things for me to learn. i never played dota so i really had no idea what the characters were all about. but by playing a variety of characters and asking friends/people, i was able to learn a lot more quickly about the game. now hon is like one of my favorite games :p fuck starcraft
jk <3 love bw always and forever n_n
btw i am baked as bawlzzzzzzz
|
To check player skill, I usually look at kdr and denies... People who dual lane more will have less average but its still a pretty reliable indication of actual skill.
|
but can't anyone get high deny stats?
i mean all you have to do is deny a lot mid-late game when denies dont really matter as much (dont they only matter most in early game?)
|
On March 11 2010 21:57 Butigroove wrote:
To check player skill, I usually look at kdr and denies... People who dual lane more will have less average but its still a pretty reliable indication of actual skill.
KDR>.6 is good by me if they have lots of denies but even if they don't they could be harassing lots with dazzle and letting the carry last hit(like they should be)
On March 11 2010 22:00 Amnesia wrote:
but can't anyone get high deny stats?
i mean all you have to do is deny a lot mid-late game when denies dont really matter as much (dont they only matter most in early game?)
Who would ever farm denies in the mid game, to be honest though you shouldn't stop denying as it doesn't lose effectiveness...it's just that heroes take so many more creeps to get a level.
|
lol Amnesia you don't even know all the heros but you are able to talk about "fucking gay" and "cheap heros" etc?
...
Honestly, all these people talking about "5 carry teams" blah blah in EM...yeah, maybe at 1400 PSR. At the levels my friends and I play at (1750+ games), the team compositions are pretty similar to competitive NM lineups. There is of course LESS of a penalty for picking a worse team, but EM simply dampens skill, it does not eliminate it. And yes, of course, we are not 1800 rank NM players, even if we have 1800 PSR. But we do occasionally play NM and I can assure you we are not horrible players. For example, my average game length is 32 minutes, my CS is 156, and my denies is 29 over 400 games. It's not as if this changes in a NM game. I just means I don't have the extra +60 gpm that I get in EM. My last hitting ability is not magically buffed in EM, nor is my denying (although in EM I deny to prevent them from getting the gold, rather than the experience, as denying in EM is far less effective for that purpose). Some of the dumb shit I see on the HON forums boggles my mind, such as "denying in EM is pointless." No, it's not pointless. Farming in EM is just as important, you simply have an extra 60 gpm that isn't found in NM, which changes the entire game for certain heros. If you are a NM player and you suck at farming, sit around and get a 20 CS in 10 minutes, that is not going to let you beat someone who has been farming well and has 50 cs in those 10 minutes just because it's EM and they're an EM player. Another argument I see is that EM builds bad habits. This might be true for noobs, but not for experienced players. I can swap between the modes without feeling any real difference (besides the obvious fact that it takes longer to level and farm, but not much - if you are a consistent, good farmer you do not feel a huge difference between income in EM and NM). I build differently in EM and NM. I have different skill builds, different item builds, etc for EM and NM. When I play engi in EM and solo (this is rare, obviously, but I play pretty much only AREM so sometimes our team composition is horrible) I get 2 levels of stats early to help my last hit damage, since his base is horrible; I would never do that in NM. I just happen to level much much more quickly in EM so it doesn't matter. It's just a different metagame, similar to 22 pylon 23 gate probe cutting for 3 gates on BGH vs 15 probe cut on Hunters for a 3 gate. Different shit works on different maps.
I really don't understand posts like a few above me, "you don't need to rice to get good items." EM boosts your farm, but it doesn't make it so you don't HAVE to farm at all. It will make you get your items 5 minutes earlier, not give it to you for free. If you want a 6k bfly, that's 100 minutes of income in NM and 50 minutes of income in EM. You still need to farm, and you'll still be shut down. I've gotten AREM teams of shit like Predator, FA, Chronos, tDL, and Scout. We will get fucking raped by decent players, and we were. You cannot get away with 5 carries in any mode unless you are playing very bad players. And while it's true that support often have a much smaller temporal window of "strength," it doesn't make them LESS effective. It just opens a new way of playing; for example, I can often be someone like pyro in an EM game with my friends and farm up a portal key, sheepstick, harkons, and maybe even a heart (only gotten that far once) and just have fun and even with that much money I haven't really taken too much farm from our carries. EM is an exaggerated version of NM. I like it. Some people don't. There are many more imbalances in the game. I put up with it because I like playing it, just like BGH has a million imbalances but players who play it know those imbalances, how to counter them, and how to play the map. Late game EM and late game NM are no different, at the point when people start blasting through creep waves (like level 16+). NM is just longer, in every respect, and since farming is slower there's a longer laning phase and more emphasis on item-independent heros.
As to denying all game long, depends on what you're doing, where they are; if you are about to push a tower by yourself and you know you've got the lane to yourself while the opponents are pushing some other lane (i.e. you're some carry farming and you simply cannot contribute to the fight yet) then leaving up some half dead creeps can be useful to tank the tower for longer. Denying later can just prevent a few more creeps worth of money from reaching your opponent in the long run. Also, certain heros who are going to static farm will rack up a huge number of denies without anyone in their lane; I've had 60+ denies in games with heros like scout, chronos, etc when you get away with static free farming a lane as your team covers your shit.
If your experience is playing with other players of your own skill level (i.e. by your own admission people who do not even know all the heros and are sometimes forced to learn new heros in SD) then I can see how you might think all EM players are idiots. In my own personal experience, there are very very bad players up until 1700 PSR in both EM and NM, more bad players in EM than in NM from 1700-1750, and mostly competent players from 1750+ in both NM and EM.
For example, I played a 1700 NM game the other day on my EM account and had to put up with abuse from a nerd playing pudge with 1% EM games who didn't know that he needs hood to reduce his own rot damage. Apparently as an EM noob I was simply wrong, and I also didn't know that Hotbl (vanguard) is core on pudge (LOL).
I find the hostility towards "EM noobs" to be extremely short sighted and stupid, as anyone who has followed this kind of SC2 discussion would probably agree with (I haven't really, just seen a few posts). What I mean is that a game should cater to both "noobs" and "competitive players," if it can, and that appealing to noobs is going to HELP the competitive scene, not hinder it. This is not really related to EM or NM, because it doesn't matter which one we're talking about; it's just a fact that more people play EM than do play NM, same as FPM and low money on b.net serves. Without a large fan base, even if they on average suck (as will ALWAYS be the case if a game has a large community), competitive play is not going to survive, because nobody will give a shit and sponsors won't want to put money up. Yet I see hundreds of posts from people saying things like GTFO FAGGOT EM NOOBS on the HON forums and people saying that noobs shouldn't be allowed to play, etc. Good luck with HON as a community and growth as an "e-sport"; HON isn't an easy game to learn for a noob.
Regardless of all of this, my original point in posting in this thread was simply that the HON forums are completely unmoderated. Tons of insults, cursing, calling people names for no reason, nothing is moderated. Makes me miss TL moderation.
|
|
|
On March 12 2010 00:34 Nitrogen wrote:
cool story brah
Thanks for mocking me for writing a somewhat long post. Just because you have a high post count shouldn't mean you can (or more like you should, since you probably can as mods tends to allow "vets" to get away with shit) post like a dick.
|
no, i'm posting like a dick because this is the dota thread, not because of my postcount.
|
On March 12 2010 00:36 Nitrogen wrote:
no, i'm posting like a dick because this is the dota thread, not because of my postcount.
On March 12 2010 00:36 BalloonFight wrote:Thanks for mocking me for writing a somewhat long post. Just because you have a high post count shouldn't mean you can (or more like you should, since you probably can as mods tends to allow "vets" to get away with shit) post like a dick.
|
On March 12 2010 00:39 BalloonFight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2010 00:36 Nitrogen wrote:
no, i'm posting like a dick because this is the dota thread, not because of my postcount. Show nested quote +On March 12 2010 00:36 BalloonFight wrote:On March 12 2010 00:34 Nitrogen wrote:
cool story brah Thanks for mocking me for writing a somewhat long post. Just because you have a high post count shouldn't mean you can (or more like you should, since you probably can as mods tends to allow "vets" to get away with shit) post like a dick.
welcome to the dota thread
|
Holy wall of text, not reading that, you seem awfully defensive over nothing.
I don't mind EM. As long as I don't have to play with an EM player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
