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[HoN/DotA] Let's Play~!! - Page 580

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luckygreens
Profile Joined April 2008
United States98 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-18 15:46:01
October 18 2009 15:45 GMT
#11581
heres a counter argument

===

AoE first:
AoE is not the game breaker, no one needs AoE to do well, AoE is not a crutch upon which all competitive teams must lean. AoE is effective simply because it allows you to damage an entire team.
However
Look at it this way, say your damaging teh entire team. What is more important, taking everyone down to half health in a gank, or killing off 2/5 of them? Half health is "POTENTIALLY" more damage dealt even, but I do believe everyone would agree that killing off 2/5 of the enemy team is much more effective.
That is taking a small part of the game, and yes, there are many other factors, but single target powerhouses have their place in Dota just as they do in HoN. And to say that its the AoE that makes a hero powerful is belying the entire strength of many of the heroes, unless you are truly trying to say that a hero like Glacius is useful for their AoE, or Pharoah.

AoE is powerful, but it is not nearly as good as you think it is.





Blink:
The argument against blink, and the argument for trying to say blink is powerful, has been stated a number of ways in this thread.
One of the major ones, which keeps getting repeated, is "Almost all heroes get blink", or stated by a few less stupid people, "A large majority of the competitively viable heroes get blink of some form".
Thus the reason I've proven fairly effectively that that is completely rubbish.

As such, saying that blink itself is the problem is more a case of an individual hero by hero basis as the majority of viable high tier picks does not include blink/portal key heroes, despite what many would have you believe.

Saying that it allows you better positioning is true, it does, thus the reason its useful. Indeed, that, and the armour, was the reason phase boots (Enhanced Marchers) became instantly spammed on every hero in Dota when it came out. Now that the changes have happened though the emphasis has moved back to a majority of Boots of Travel, though alot of phase boots are still used..

But at the same time, it also costs you 1/5 of your expected gold, makes you fragile, less damage, less mana, and less likely to survive.
The number of heroes who use it to, as the OP says:
Quote:
go from not close enough to the battle to right on top of your head
is few, because in order to do so you must be an AoE disabler who can then also survive the fallout after that AoE disable has been dealt. Whats more, you will never get an entire team with that one blink, so you must be able to survive long enough to be a threat (thus the reason that Enigma see's relatively little league play). Blinking into a group of 5 heroes, if they can't kill you in the time it'd take the other 2-4 players on your team to catch up to you, then its more a case of an inept team than anything else, with a few exceptions of proper initiators who can tank, in which case you wait for the fragile heroes to come in while your teammates are disabled and take them out. Yes, its a situation that can go either way, but at the same time, a game can go either way until the last gank.
Whats more, as will be discussed below, its not as clear cut as you seem to say for getting that blink dagger early.

Quote:
Heroes are balanced in terms of their strength and weaknesses. Many of the strongest heroes are those with the best AoE/Ults. However, their issue is getting in to the thick of things to get them off. Portal key is a free pass. Low HP heroes need to spend far more than 2200 to gain a lot more hp to cover their weakness. Mana dependent heroes need to farm big items to have a decent pool/regen. DPS heroes spend truckloads more than 2200 to get their damage rolling.
The heroes are not balanced just based on heroes, but based on items, map shape, rune spawns, creep strength, and MANY other things, so portal key is taken into account for these heroes. You will notice almost every hero who buys portal key can not support it as their first ~2k worth of items, requiring boots, probably a fortified bracelet or two, and maybe something else first, pushing the gold to something close to 4k to 5k worth, which is about the 30 minute mark of a game.
(Rather than discuss it here, I will wait for a silly idiot to say "Nuh Uh, Tempest can get it in 15 minutes" before I actually explain just why that person who posted that is an idiot)

That means that there have been many many ganks which have happened before the portal key even enters the equation, and during that entire time the heroes need to be viable without portal key otherwise they are not generally used, especially since a pushing strat, which can be quite common, will destroy that heroes farming for a portal key.


Quote:
Heroes without these ability or that benefit little from them become far less useful in HoN. Movement and positioning is the biggest issue in Dotaesque games. No point having the super ult when you can't get it off.
Here you go Verix, this is the exact point I countered with my list of heroes which are competitively viable. Enough said.



Finally
Quote:
Basically, this changes the entire dynamic of the game. Many skillful items (juke spots, cliffs, LoS spots etc.) become irrelevant against blinks. Proper positioning to pull off a great initiation is moot.
The dynamic of the game is already built around blink, so what you propose with removal/change of blink would CHANGE the ENTIRE DYNAMIC of the GAME. Your point is that the way the game is currently has changed the way the game is currently..... hmmm

Oh, and the other thing, saying that specific things are useless, like
juke spots - Incredibly useful, you can't blink into a juke spot very effectively, blink has a large cooldown, and the MAIN thing about juking is not being seen, which is still, and will forever be, there, no matter what. I Don't see how blink breaks juke spots at all
cliffs - Same confusion here, Cliff's still give a miss % for ranged attacking up, cliff's still provide a barrier for the majority of heroes for the majority of the time (one attack means 3 seconds of escaping befoer a cliff stops being an obstacle). Indeed, you can even juke with a cliff's fog of war effectively.
LoS spots - How does blink stop these being effective? You think that people with blink dagger always travel around the outside of such spots so they can't be seen? You have to at some point walk through the neutrals if you want to gank someone behind the bottom sent tower, and that means you must cross at least one useful line of sight position. Unless you think you should waste mana and that cooldown to blink past them and tehn walk into the gank?
Insane
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States4991 Posts
October 18 2009 16:42 GMT
#11582
His comment about wards being useless against blinkers is totally wrong. Wtf? Wards are even more valuable against blinkers if anything, since vs non-blinkers you often have a second or so to react before they're on top of you and (depending upon your hero) that may be enough to survive. Vs blinkers, they are on top of you asap, so you need to know they're coming...
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
October 18 2009 16:54 GMT
#11583
I think the guy is a total newbie and should shut up.
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
October 18 2009 20:34 GMT
#11584
There's no denying, however, that heros like magmus and tempest have recieved sizable buffs from their dota incarnations.

I think sandwraith will spell the end to pure AoE centric builds, as a single ult and suddenly all your daggers are stopped and your AoEs are dispersing back at your team. Nothing more frustrating than getting a perfect 5 man tempest ult and dying during it purely due to diffusion damage.
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
October 18 2009 22:29 GMT
#11585
Played sand wraith today.
I ulted, they all died,
our team lost literally 0 hp.
;o
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
October 18 2009 22:35 GMT
#11586
your ult alone teamkilled them wat
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
October 19 2009 00:45 GMT
#11587
was a team fight
except i don't think they got off a spell
;p
lol
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
iLoveKT
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Philippines3615 Posts
October 19 2009 01:25 GMT
#11588
Of all the things he said, I only agree with 1 thing. OMFG MADMAN IMBA WTF.
Woo Jung Ho
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
October 19 2009 01:36 GMT
#11589
On October 19 2009 09:45 MYM.Testie wrote:
was a team fight
except i don't think they got off a spell
;p
lol


obv cuz of mass sheepsticks hurrrrrrrrrr
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
hideo
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Canada1641 Posts
October 19 2009 03:48 GMT
#11590
On October 19 2009 09:45 MYM.Testie wrote:
was a team fight
except i don't think they got off a spell
;p
lol


okay...'fess up...how many CS at that point in the game?
Tadzio
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
3340 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-19 19:25:17
October 19 2009 19:11 GMT
#11591
I'm sorry, but I'm tired of being the only one that wards in our games. Sometimes I'm not a support hero. So, I'm putting time into writing this so others can do their hero's job. This is image intensive, so I'll put it in spoilers... but please read this if you're planning on playing support heroes in the near future.

When reviewing the images, please take note of the minimap if you don't have a feel for where the screenshot was taken.

+ Show Spoiler +

The Noob's Guide to Support Warding

A Disclaimer: Amongst other [TLn] gamers, I am probably average to slightly below average in terms of HoN skill. That, I think, makes me a poor authority for a guide. Fortunately, warding takes essentially zero skill. Just discipline and knowledge. I sincerely hope the newer players among you use this so we can get out of the 1600s.

Intro:

So, you want to be a support hero? Maybe your team needs a support hero and you're the last slot. Maybe you're tired of playing carries and wanna give support a try. Maybe you misclicked. Whatever the reasons, you're support and you need to know what's expected of your role. First, ask yourself two questions.

1) Are you okay with buying and placing wards all game long? If the answer is no, consider repicking into a tank or an initiator.

2) Are you willing to babysit your carry, giving him all the CK you can and trying not to last hit any heroes? If the answer is no, consider repicking into a carry or ganker.

If you can do both those things (warding/babysitting), you can handle playing a serviceable support hero. Congrats!

The rest of this guide will concentrate on covering how to ward at the pub level. You won't see any fancy advanced strategies here... just what you need to do your job.

First, which Heroes are Support?

Most heroes can serve as support, but these heroes excel in the role. Almost exclusively INT-based, they are item independent heroes and are usually nukers, healers or buffers. Weak as individuals, they make their team better than another carry would. Subroles in parenthesis.

Andromeda (ganker/initiator)
Blacksmith (ganker)
Nymphora (pusher)
Thunderbringer (ganker)
Pollywog Priest (pusher)
Ophelia (ganker/jungler)
Pyromancer (ganker)
Demented Shaman (pusher)
Voodoo Jester (ganker)
Hellbringer (initiator)
Plague Rider (ganker)
Accursed (tank)

If it's not obvious who should be warding in your game and you're one of these heroes, go ahead and buy some wards. Take some initiative.

Warding Basics:

Warding is by far the most important thing support heroes do. Legal maphack is a powerful thing, and if you take your role seriously you can give your team a great advantage simply by buying and placing wards. Warding does not require much skill, so even the noobiest players can be a valuable asset to their team if they ward.

In my games with [TLn], if I don't buy wards, I never see them. This must change if we ever wanna get outta the 1600s (and I certainly do). So let's go over the basics of warding.

Two wards cost 200g. You can buy them by pressing B R A. That's right, by simply typing "bra," you're rewarded with maphack. It's a sexy thing. I like to think that I'm taking off my opponent's bra when I do it, but you may find other motivations for purchasing them more often. Anyway, wards are invisible, last 6 minutes from the time you place them, you can buy up to 4 wards every 6 minutes, and they reveal the same portion of the map whether it is night or day.

Starting off:

When I play support heroes in a standard pub, I like to start off with 1x Runes of the Blight, 1x Ward of Sight, 1x Pretender's Crown, and 2x Minor Totem. If my hero needs mana early, I'll trade in the Pretender's Crown for 3x Mana Potion. In a game where I know the people I'm playing with I often start with 1x Runes of the Blight, 1x Ward of Sight, 1x Monkey Courier, and 2x Minor Totems.

Notice that the unwavering feature of these starting item builds is the Ward of Sight.

The first thing to do once you buy your items is head for the river runespawn, either top or bottom. If someone's come with you, use the time searching for a firstblood opportunity. If you're alone, sit on highground and wait for the -10s mark (ten seconds before the beginning of the match), at that moment, place your ward and position yourself to grab the rune.

If a rune is there, don't grab it right away unless you have to. If it's a regen rune, you may want to leave it there for your solo, ask them. If it's an invis, an illusion, or a double damage rune, wait until the 10s mark to grab it, then head to your lane and attempt a firstblood. If it's a haste rune, wait until the 15s mark to grab it, then head to mid or your lane and attempt a firstblood.

But what to do with your extra Ward? I'm split on this. Some games I save it 'til the 6 minute mark, then replace the first ward and use the other wards I've bought to get massive vision over the map. In other games, I'll drop the extra ward in the middle lane and let the solo place it at his leisure.

Primary Ward Locations:

Getting vision of the river is your primary concern. At your most minimal and lazy, you should have wards looking over the runespawns at all times. Here are some examples:

[image loading]

Top's primary ward location.


[image loading]

Bottom's primary ward location.


Secondary Ward Locations:

Later in the game, you'll find it useful to place wards in offensive or defensive locations. These are the locations you should place them for maximum vision:

For Top.
[image loading]


[image loading]


For Bottom.
[image loading]


[image loading]


[image loading]


Preventing Neutral Pulls:

Neutral Pulls can give a significant level advantage to the players doing it. If your opponent is doing it, or you think they might, you can prevent neutrals from spawning by placing wards, like so:

[image loading]

For Top.


[image loading]

For Bottom.


Counter Warding:

If your ganks are all failing, chances are high that your opponents have wards up, and you should take it upon yourself to counterward (assuming that you're ranged). Blinding your opponent is just as powerful as revealing him, so make use of this when necessary. Simply buy a Ward of Revelation and place it at the common locations for wards, then destroy the offending ward. Like warding, counterwarding requires little skill, just the discipline to do it.

[image loading]

An Example.


Avoiding Counter Warding:

Pubs don't typically counterward, but I have had it happen to me. Here are some less common locations to place wards that'll give you just about as much information as the standard ward locations, but won't be as easy for them to find.

For Top.
[image loading]


[image loading]


[image loading]


[image loading]


For Bottom.
[image loading]


[image loading]


[image loading]


[image loading]


[image loading]


FAQ:

Q: But I'm broke!
A: Np. Just don't die for a couple minutes and you'll have enough to buy wards.

Q: But if I don't buy wards, I can carry with XHero!
A: Stfu and buy wards, you donkey.

Q: I'm Voodoo Jester, Pollywog, Blacksmith, Thunderbringer, Pyromancer! Do I really have to buy wards?
A: If no one else is, yes. Shroud/Staff of the Master/whatever-the-hell-you're-saving-up-for isn't as important as wards.

Q: I'm Accursed. Do I really have to buy wards?
A: People very rarely expect Accursed to buy wards. But if you're building him with an Astroblade (mekansm) and no one else is getting wards, I'd say yes.

Q: Can I place wards in other spots?
A: Of Course! But be careful. Trees and other obsticles can block a ward's vision. The locations I screenshoted are ideal for most situations.


If you have any other questions, please ask. If I'm unable to answer them, I'm sure there's better players here that will. GLHF GG.
Dark.Carnival
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
United States5095 Posts
October 19 2009 19:54 GMT
#11592
oh man i'm glad i'm not playing hon, it took me awhile to finally notice there were cliffs on the grassy side, everything looked the same : (
@QxGDarkCell ._.
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
October 19 2009 19:56 GMT
#11593
Bra.

The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
Tadzio
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
3340 Posts
October 19 2009 20:00 GMT
#11594
On October 20 2009 04:54 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
oh man i'm glad i'm not playing hon, it took me awhile to finally notice there were cliffs on the grassy side, everything looked the same : (


poor darkcell and his vision problems T T
Nitrogen
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States5345 Posts
October 20 2009 01:10 GMT
#11595
On October 20 2009 05:00 Tadzio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2009 04:54 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
oh man i'm glad i'm not playing hon, it took me awhile to finally notice there were cliffs on the grassy side, everything looked the same : (


poor darkcell and his vision problems T T


no he's just dumb.

stupid darkcell.

stupid.
UNFUCK YOURSELF
Dark.Carnival
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
United States5095 Posts
October 20 2009 01:32 GMT
#11596
go burn your leg some more nitrolame.

+ Show Spoiler +
p.s. you has a tiny penis
@QxGDarkCell ._.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17648 Posts
October 20 2009 21:25 GMT
#11597
On October 19 2009 00:17 luckygreens wrote:
read this over on the hon forums, what do u guys think? most of his points makes sense to me but im not sure if what hes talking about breaks the game

--- I am a noob and have no idea about the game rant expunged ---

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=30675


This is wrong on so many levels...
Blink, wards and AoE stuff does add to the game difficulty and make it more dynamic, not dumbing it down like the original poster suggests. Where did he even get this kind of ideas?
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
DoYouHas
Profile Joined November 2008
United States1140 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-20 21:35:52
October 20 2009 21:35 GMT
#11598
The only places I would add to your guide Tadzio are placing wards behind the other teams tower. The most common and most effective way people use to dodge your rune wards when they are ganking is to tp to the lane they want to gank. Warding behind their tower protects you from that as well as gives you valuable info when you push the tower as to who, where, and how many enemies.
Guts? Determination? $5?
Butigroove
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Seychelles2061 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-21 00:54:04
October 21 2009 00:52 GMT
#11599
I wanted to throw out another update of things we're currently working on:

1.) Spectator / Replay Interface: This is an interface specific to spectating or watching a replay. It will have more information and options to expand & collapse lots of detailed information panels. This also includes full functionality of replays with planned full backwards compatability.

2.) Match & Player Web Stats: We will be releasing access to the online systems that gives all the data for every HoN played. This includes access to replays and player stats. Only accounts that have Pre Purchased the game will access.

3.) Automated Match Making: Now that a majority of our Chat Server scalability is handled we have begun work on the match making system. The initial iteration of this system will only allow for individual and entire team play (5 man teams).

4.) Automated Tournament System (Leagues to follow shortly): We are almost complete with our automated tournament system which seemlessly integrates the ability to create a tournament from web interface directly to the game server, chat server, and game client for creating scheduled games, notifying players of upcoming games, and automatically submitting results and updating brackets. We'll host a $10,000 initial beta tournament for this upon completion (more details will come down the road).

5.) Pathfinding Tweaks: While pathfinding works as intendedly most of the time there are situations we would like to improve.

6.) New Heroes: We will continue to push out new heroes. Here is a list of the next group of heroes we're working on.

(a) Sand Wraith: Mercurial (Spectre) port
(b) Silencer port
(c) Rhino Rider: port but who?


from: Here



I don't know if this has been posted yet. but god damn it addresses every issue I have with the game, even down to me complaining about no Cow raping noobs.
beach beers buds beezies b-b-b-baaanelings
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
October 21 2009 01:25 GMT
#11600
soooo
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
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