EPT[HoN/DotA] Let's Play~!! - Page 485
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Renderer
United States30 Posts
On August 14 2009 19:26 Corr wrote: Vanguard is only good for jungling axe & viper. Not jungling centaur, not jungling Ursa, not jungling N'aix, not jungling Lycan. Nothing else. It's good on laning Axe if you can get it at 7-8 min but the longer it takes you to get the less useful it is. The only reason to get it is tower diving. A tad later the opponent heroes will be strong enough to negate that ability. Ursa lvl 8/9 can solo Rosh with a single vanguard. | ||
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Nitrogen
United States5345 Posts
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
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Heen
Korea (South)2178 Posts
bristleback (low base hp/armor) antimage (hood overkill) viper (low base hp/has built-in MR) axe (low base hp + helix farm) darkseer (jungle + shell tank) seriously though, new VG is a good investment on the heroes I listed above o_od VG's cheaper than hood and there's no contest which one is more 'effective' as a first item. It's not always VG vs/or hood. Going to tank? get both VG -> hood I see vipers in competitive replays going hood first and end up with barely 1000 hp... why? dumb choice. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On August 16 2009 06:34 Heen wrote: VG owns! bristleback (low base hp/armor) antimage (hood overkill) viper (low base hp/has built-in MR) axe (low base hp + helix farm) darkseer (jungle + shell tank) seriously though, new VG is a good investment on the heroes I listed above o_od VG's cheaper than hood and there's no contest which one is more 'effective' as a first item. It's not always VG vs/or hood. Going to tank? get both VG -> hood I see vipers in competitive replays going hood first and end up with barely 1000 hp... why? dumb choice. Viper's going Hood for Pipe rush, again not a personal choice but a team one. People are skipping VG seeing how every fight is an AoE fuckfest and to pick up their next item quicker. Good investment or not, the game isn't letting them get it at the moment, getting it after Hood means not as effective, getting it before Hood doesn't help with the heroes at the moment. It just costs too much while every other item at that price range offers either better scaling or better results through out the game. Maybe the Asian scene/environment is different, but that's how it's playing out in euro cws. And Hood's cheaper than VG by about 200 gold  | ||
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Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
On August 16 2009 06:34 Heen wrote: VG owns! bristleback (low base hp/armor) antimage (hood overkill) viper (low base hp/has built-in MR) axe (low base hp + helix farm) darkseer (jungle + shell tank) seriously though, new VG is a good investment on the heroes I listed above o_od VG's cheaper than hood and there's no contest which one is more 'effective' as a first item. It's not always VG vs/or hood. Going to tank? get both VG -> hood I see vipers in competitive replays going hood first and end up with barely 1000 hp... why? dumb choice. as much as i hate to disagree, but darkseer doesnt need vanguard at all. a stout -> persev will let him kill creep waves much faster and no need to tank it. I find that a darkseer with guinsoo will kill the wave before it does any damage to him, so i find it not needed to get vanguard on him =P. Also, pipe to me is not that "amazing" to always have. It costs alot for the little it gives (it only gives 5 armor and 400 negation (before any reductions)). Sure its aoe but to me its only useful on some support heroes or as a late item just because you cant fill any other spots up. I saw it used today in a game with spec, he got pipe after his radi/diffusal and yet continually died in team fights to aoe combo of veno + direct dps of lion/doom. To me a heart is easily a better choice after the early game, while picking up a planewalker cloak possibly early for the cheap magic reduction. Hood to me is overrated. While its good, it can be overcome very easily in alot of line ups through crowd control and focus fire. I think vanguard is a better item to have early, while hood is a better late game item since it scales. The lower your hp is the less hood does for you, thats why people think rushing pipe is so good. They say, "Oh it adds 400 more effective hp to me". However its only vs spells before reduction (which means 1 - 1.5 spells tops). Vanguard early gives you 300 more hp, as well as reduction to phys attacks (something every hero does in any situation (i believe it also works vs physical damage spells)). Its just a better early item due to the higher hp it gives you to survive ganks, whereas hood is just better late game when you have alot of hp to get through. | ||
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TheMusiC
United States1054 Posts
so much | ||
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Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
will do it again sometime soz bout the afk | ||
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BottleAbuser
Korea (South)1888 Posts
If you can only have one, look at your own hero's HP as it is and the other team's lineup, and choose based on that. Maybe I'm harping too much on deciding on a case-by-case basis; I recently had an argument with Heen about whether or not straight to dagger is a given thing on sand king. But that's still my opinion. | ||
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paper
13196 Posts
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Heen
Korea (South)2178 Posts
dagger on SK = no brainer. I tried to somehow convince you of this but you are hard to convince for some reason -_-... If you want to continue the discussion, go ahead, maybe other people will join in and help. As I recall these were the points I made for dagger: - easier ganking/initiation - better impales - easier to get ult off - less dying (which can be said about most other items I know but for all the offensive bonuses it gives to SK it increases his survivability by a lot) - better mobility in general (chasing etc.) and the lineup we were playing against was Tide Enchant Lion Morphling Abaddon Ours was Kunkka (me) SK (you) potm wl + was it bane? Anyway you were saying we didn't have enough follow-up stun on your impale and the other team had too many ways to disrupt epicenter.. It's like this... you don't 'question' dagger on SK the same way you don't question going mech TvP. Judicator: WTF, since when was planewalker's 400 gold lol I always saved up enough gold for the 650 planewalker's when I bought shit at the side shop. Old habits... Like how I kept thinking mystic staff was 2900 gold for a while after the change. I watched maelk's viper vs ks.int recently and he went VG first and I was secretly thinking 'there's at least one sane viper in the euro scene' hehe. VG is more 'realistic' a choice to me. Pipe? yea 400 spell dmg before reduction negates a stun bolt for the whole team IF your team was in position to all get buffs, ok. It's a good item no doubt but you don't need it asap like the pipe rushers seem to get it. 61 viper is a monster and should be played that way: tank and destroy. | ||
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Heen
Korea (South)2178 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
Judicator: WTF, since when was planewalker's 400 gold lol I always saved up enough gold for the 650 planewalker's when I bought shit at the side shop. Old habits... Like how I kept thinking mystic staff was 2900 gold for a while after the change. I watched maelk's viper vs ks.int recently and he went VG first and I was secretly thinking 'there's at least one sane viper in the euro scene' hehe. VG is more 'realistic' a choice to me. Pipe? yea 400 spell dmg before reduction negates a stun bolt for the whole team IF your team was in position to all get buffs, ok. It's a good item no doubt but you don't need it asap like the pipe rushers seem to get it. 61 viper is a monster and should be played that way: tank and destroy. Yeah, same here. Pipe is broken if rushed is the general consensus right now in the competitive community, tower fights are common early and realistically you don't have that many heroes with level 11 ultimates yet. The AoE on it is pretty wide and not hard to get 4 people with it, early on and later on, that's a lot of AoE spells. Spectre getting focused by Doom/Veno/Lion is going to die....Hood or no Hood, the better question is what was his team doing and why was he at the point where he was getting focused that easily. Maelk's VG Viper was when he didn't need to cover his team; they made a smart decision in general to NOT get into a team fight at that point in the game so VG was the best choice at that point in time. You'll see the same thing when the Viper has map control and is dicking on your team anyways. | ||
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Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
On August 16 2009 22:23 Judicator wrote: Yeah, same here. Pipe is broken if rushed is the general consensus right now in the competitive community, tower fights are common early and realistically you don't have that many heroes with level 11 ultimates yet. The AoE on it is pretty wide and not hard to get 4 people with it, early on and later on, that's a lot of AoE spells. Spectre getting focused by Doom/Veno/Lion is going to die....Hood or no Hood, the better question is what was his team doing and why was he at the point where he was getting focused that easily. Maelk's VG Viper was when he didn't need to cover his team; they made a smart decision in general to NOT get into a team fight at that point in the game so VG was the best choice at that point in time. You'll see the same thing when the Viper has map control and is dicking on your team anyways. was i think spec zeus tide thd and huskar vs doom lion beastmaster veno and i for some reason cant remember the other guy =P. Pretty much when sent (spec team) ran up to fight tide would die in like 2 seconds to roar/finger of death or get doomed (he had bad kraken luck for doom). Right after he died they would kill spec and then sent lost team fight. Sent eventually won because scourge didnt have a carry. A heart was just to me a more logical choice for the fact that when he got his pipe, it was after treads wraiths radi diffusal, and he only had 1700 hp, when the heart gives him 1000ish hp + insane regen. I dont see getting pipe on a carry worth the gold when a support can get it just as effectively. | ||
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Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
On August 16 2009 18:43 Heen wrote: Oh and Alven: I usually get VG on darkseer for fights. It just so happens that darkseer is a jungler (needs a stoutshield) and his primary skill early game is close contact. I wasn't saying it was necessary for effective jungling o_o So I get VG on him early so I can outtank anyone and not have to worry about tanking for a while (guinsoo 2nd item). I can see that, I myself prefer a more passive darkseer until i have my guinsoo at least, then turn into a pushing machine when i hit refresher (if i dont get all golem camps i normally can have them both by 30-35). Once you get a double wall that early most teams just cant stop it. Ill have to get around to playing him more offensively because the way i play him now is much of a han bang around 30 minutes for two towers + raxes. At the sk dagger, Dagger to me is his core item. If you are farming amazingly, getting something else before dagger is fine. Normally you want dagger by level 11ish since before that you have a relatively low mana pool to support its constant use. Then the other part is that if you gank alot you won't have alot of farm for the other items that sk could use, thus needing to save all your money for dagger after boots/bracers/bottle. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On August 16 2009 22:44 Alventenie wrote: was i think spec zeus tide thd and huskar vs doom lion beastmaster veno and i for some reason cant remember the other guy =P. Pretty much when sent (spec team) ran up to fight tide would die in like 2 seconds to roar/finger of death or get doomed (he had bad kraken luck for doom). Right after he died they would kill spec and then sent lost team fight. Sent eventually won because scourge didnt have a carry. A heart was just to me a more logical choice for the fact that when he got his pipe, it was after treads wraiths radi diffusal, and he only had 1700 hp, when the heart gives him 1000ish hp + insane regen. I dont see getting pipe on a carry worth the gold when a support can get it just as effectively. Yeah that was my point, I fail to see why someone else couldn't get the Pipe, its like Vlad's in that situation too, yeah its a helpful item, but you as Spec wouldn't get it. | ||
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