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Okay, several points:
Some people contend that the majority rules, or that the host rules, so it's pointless to talk about the actual "final" or "ultimate" way to go, because that's not what matters. I think that the reasons that some people lean one way or another are stupid, and that by arguing these points, what the majority says can be changed. I'm not even sure that the majority sees backdooring as something to ban.
L, on the other hand, seems to be addressing the actual concept (not the "what is the majority saying?" argument).
You concede that it's possible for a community to stagnate in the form of banning types of play instead of learning to deal with it. I assert that this is true of TL dota and backdooring.
Be more careful with words like "ever" and "never." Item stacking was accepted in some games I've played. A single counterexample destroys statements like that.
And seriously, I'm not a noob who gets lucky one game and doesn't stop going on about how godly X hero is with Y item and Z skill. I understand the actual limitations of item stacking and backdooring, and now I realize I can't prove it to you unless you and I both have a team ready to play and see how our strategies actually fare against each other.
I guess we'll ultimately have to leave it at "go with what the host says."
P.S. You seem to be ignoring the fact that it takes A LOT of time to set up a backdoor and wait for the right time to go in. It can take upwards 3 to 5 minutes even. Considering that, a couple hundred gold and a minute or two spent moving around doesn't seem as costly.
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Item stacking being accepted in some games does not preclude it from being a generally unaccepted practice in the community at large. Quite honestly, the tournament organizer or host can outline whatever the fuck type of rules he wants, but when it comes to community consensus, backdooring has never had a 100% legitimate feel to it, and that has transferred to the competitive scene as well.
Regardless, if many competitive tournaments don't allow it, and most of our hosts don't allow it, why should we get into the habit of doing it? (except when defending vs. megacreeps after swapping people onto ledges all game :O)
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It takes time to set up a backdoor? o_O)
no.
Because it's usually done by one overpowered hero.
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Please don't quote this post given its length and that it will be obvious to whom you're responding.
L has such a narrow-minded view on every arguable topic that subjecting him to other possibilities proves nearly useless.
"Don't pretend it's difficult"? Honestly, try to BD a competent team, i.e. one that carries TPs. Also, tell the professional teams to stop using TPs on raxes when the other team is in their base. Think of all the attrition that is inevitable! It's futile!
Moreover, if one hero is overpowered and can take down a rax before anyone can stop him, the game should've been long over anyway. Some heroes are ridiculous at stopping pushes, e.g. ES/KotL/ashitloadofotherheroes, so maybe we should ban them so people won't need to turn to BD? Ridiculous.
Way to exaggerate user-defined limits. Whereas overpowered characters in fighting games are confined to one player, BD is available to everyone. (*I guess not all fighting games, but that doesn't detract from the point that given the same playing field, BDing doesn't give one team an edge over the other since both can utilize this tactic.) And how is backdooring a ridiculous way to play DotA? If I can kill X without any problems, what's stopping me from doing so? Validation from creeps that instantly die to AoE? What if someone kills all the creeps just before the ramp? Can I never push then? Here, let me quote myself:
On July 16 2008 16:17 paper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2008 15:29 L wrote:If the game mechanics allow it, it's fair game. If it wasn't intended, it should be fixed.... by the developers. So that players can't do it. So then bitch to icefrog. Pooling was allowed until... what, 2 months ago? Was it fair then, and completely unfair now? Developers don't determine what's acceptable in the community; Players do that. Backdooring makes the game ridiculously boring, period. ... You guys are seriously making out backdoor to be some unstoppable strategy...
Pooling is great because noobs only look at the end result, not the process. Complaining about pooling is like losing against a late-game-oriented team and complaining that they were too farmed by the end. Do you know how much HP naked heroes have? ~800. How much damage do the popular spells do? QoP(SoP)-300 dmg. SF(Raze)-3x300dmg. Lina(DS/LSA)-2x280dmg. PotM(SF/E'sA)-300/360dmg. Note that these are essentially AoE. Just using these four heroes and you rack up over 2000 damage without any of their respective ults. Because you obviously won't hit everyone with every spell, I'll use a generous multiplier of 0.4, which gives me about 800 damage with four heroes. And that's not even including ults, so don't bother bringing up hero reduction. Hi.
"400 or so gold worth of consumables" != 135 gold, which should be invested in a TP anyway. Unless you can immediately pull large amounts of gold out of your ass amounting to 2700 gold when the game starts, stopping you from buying a TP, please refrain from complaining. Carrying a TP even with BoT isn't unheard of, either. And since we're in the context of TL IH's, what are these pushes that BDing will stop?
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As if I'd let this thread fall halfway down the page.
ASDF LATER TODAY.
AKA NOW.
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Hey where do you guys play? And can others join in?
I would like to play either long or -em games. Sorry to ask if this has been answered, 150 plus pages is just too long to find a channel or time.
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We play on GGC:
Usually in the USA / Can rooms.
We inhouse 90%
pub stomp 10%
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United States7166 Posts
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pub leavers are such an irritation.. gahhh ASDF
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
hmmm.... no matter what server I'm on, what channel I try to join, it says "Server is offline, try again later".
Should I assume the server is offline and try again later despite the facts that the rooms seems to be almost full or assume there's something wrong with my Garena.
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ouch clan is full? is there a addition clan? - garena is pretty sick imo, never heard of this b4
edit: ok im pretty frickin lost, trying to join usa dota room ### always says server is offline? know idea how to add people, its not like aim is it?
edit: my id: mel_ee
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omg the 5 seconds thing is really annoying
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Gah. I can't let this die 
There are no "overpowered heroes." And by overpowered, I mean that there is no one hero that can single-handedly fuck over the other team. As far as I know. If you do, then pls tell me so we can get a pro team together. I mean it.
A single, stacked backdoorer met by a reasonably competent, coordinated team will lose. I don't care if it's omniknight with 6 divine rapiers. He won't accomplish jack shit (maybe a kill or two, but he's only gonna scratch the tower). Supported by a few casters (inevitably with few items) might be different, but it's still a toss-up, not a foregone win for the backdoorers.
There are situations where there are a few players who know how to farm, in a game dominated (in number) by weaker players. Then you get farmed and "overpowered." Use it. Everyone's always going to let you keep farming and do your own shit and bulldoze them until they (hopefully) realize that it's NOT ok after all to let a carry free farm. And then you'll get your practice predicting and dodging ganks, or setting up counterganks. Being king of the hill has no meaning when your hill is lower than others.
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I don't even know what you're talking about anymore.
Let it go i m o
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Fine, but then I have to now find something else to argue with people about because work lasts another 8 hours and I need to do something in between the boring stuff.
TL dota needs to get more games in, waste less time. It's stupid to take 20+ minutes to get a game going when we have 10 people in the game. It might be a waste of time to just start with "stacked" teams, but it's more definitely a waste of time to spend that much time arguing about it. We're here to play. Getting creamed by a superior team isn't a waste of time, either; you can learn strategies and try new ones with less bitching from your team in the form of "we lost because of you."
The individual wins and losses don't count (yet), so don't worry too much about it. Just play your best (fuck the "we already lost so it doesn't matter what I do" mentality!), try to get better. IMO, much more fun and rewarding than wasting everyone else's time "because I can."
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we need a ranking system with games where no one randoms : |
btw, NEW POLL
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Hey reyoo-kee, I was aiming that at you. Hurry up and argue with me.
Oh, and for a lot more people: Don't bitch about lag? Or about being tired. Or about your mouse, or keyboard, or monitor. This stuff is stuff YOU knew about, and NO ONE CAN FIX IT FOR YOU. If something's gonna affect your game, don't play until you fix it. Or if you decide to play anyways, there's no point in letting everyone know. We don't care. Do your shit and do it well, and if you can't do it well at least try. If you can't because of something or another, then don't play until you can fix it. Talking about why you're underperforming doesn't show anything other than how you don't have a firm grasp of the consequences of your own decisions.
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New thread topic:
Bdares dota pet peeves
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Come on, there's gotta be someone out there who'll play with me....
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EPT
