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Since we've already agreed that house rules are set by the house, I'm just theorycrafting here. Just clarifying in case anyone's getting annoyed that I haven't shut up yet.
Like I said earlier, the cases where backdoor is a good solution are rare, because it only works when you're fucking up or your opponent is fucking up. But yeah, TL dota is far from perfect, and backdooring allows for fewer people to abuse other players' weaknesses too easily perhaps. I'd still like more people to learn how to deal with it, but it's not that easy to learn a new concept like that and implement it.
As for the case where a farmed wind walker or blinker (even worse) is terrorizing your towers, my own response would be to give up the outer towers, plant wards on highest ground (unseeable unless they plant their own ward there, which is unlikely) to cover 2/3 of the lanes, and have 1 disabler (with a bot) waiting with 2 more ready to scroll (not bot) in.
Those two, together with the remaining 2 members, would be pushing a side pretty hard. This should be reasonably effective, because 4 guys can push a lane REAL fast (like 20 seconds), which may be the time the backdoorer needs to know that the base is almost empty and go in. After the creep waves reach their base, one or two can portal back to stop a backdoor attempt and the remaining can keep pushing if the remainder of the other team is weak. The base sentry can bot to help the push if the backdoorer goes to defend.
This is all assuming we have at least 2 disablers. If we don't, then everyone should hold portals and portal in one after another for backdoors. Clinkz is weak enough that 2 DPSers should kill him before towers, especially if they're made invulnerable by scrolls. Remember that backdooring does take setup time, too.
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The backdoorer can start backdooring the moment they realize that you are trying to push. Once you start TPing, they can blink, leave, or TP away. They'll always be able to chip away some life from your towers. As the game drags on, he can easily take down the towers by himself. A team with Furion and Pit Lord can Team backdoor any time they want; Furion TPs, makes Treants, and the rest of the team BoTs. Backdooring also invalidates the point of timing for your pushes so that each of your lane is pushing in, since they can just skip all your creeps and take down your rax.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
Defending backdooring is very situational, and usually differs on situation.
The clinkz example is highly situational. If Clinkz is the carry, and his team would get owned in a team battle without him, then obviously the other team is better off pushing together, then TP 2/3 people back to scare Clinkz off. It doesn't matter how fast clinkz is, he cannot push a lane faster than a 5 heros combined. Now the situation gets more difficult if Clinkz team has a lot of aoe disables useful for defending, even if their items suck (NA, naga, es, enigma et)... then the team could stall enough time for Clinkz to take down a tower or rax and come back in time for the big dance. Of course I could think up another example to counter this, but again it's all situational on heros, level and items. I've played a game where I was carrying as clinkz against mainly intel chars (a situation any clinkz player would savor) but soon found out that chain hex + shiva made the game a lot more difficult. I had to resort to BD in which I think the host ck'd me cuz I dropped right when I was hitting their tree (lol).
Anyways! All in all, I think BD is similar to a cheese strat in SC. Say you're playing a bo5 and are against the wall. You lose this game and it's over, but the next and last map is almost a sure win for you while this map is a lot harder. You decide to cheese for an easy win and then proceed to win on the next map thanks to the imbalance on it. Much like BD, it can be considered a "desparate strat" or a cheap strat to win, but it's still a good viable option, puts you at a risky situation AND, good players should be able to block it.
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think about it.
i was only able to BD because my team sucked ass: because they were senselessly throwing themselves away for no fucking reason, i was given enough time to BD and salvage some of our deaths by taking down a tower or rax. the net gain was shitty as hell, even negative, maybe.
there's no reason why BD should be illegal when it's so. fucking. cheap. to. counter. it. just use some of your "9000 cs" to buy some wards or TPs, geez.
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it's part of the game
if icefrog intended it to not legal, he updates dota often enough that he can easily make a simple trigger "if no creeps within X range of building, building is invulnerable"
host rules are different obviously. my problem isn't with host rules, it's with the fact that players as a whole think BD is something that should be looked down upon, similar to 4pool or whatever. it's just another strat, live with it (or ban it in private games..)
edit: those that play arcade fighting games surely can draw a parallel to scrubs banning certain techniques that aren't even good at higher levels just because they don't know how to counter them. in the grand scheme of things, it's in the game to be (ab)used and it can easily be taken out since the game is updated often enough.
edit2: and it's not like the 'ban' is enforced in TL games. often i see some heroes eagerly pushing a lane, and killing a tower when their creeps are 3 screens away yet nobody calls BD. often i see them running into an enemy base to kill a hero, and on the way out kill a few buildings or hit them a few times and nobody calls BD. etc..
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Northern Ireland1200 Posts
On July 15 2008 03:58 paper wrote:
think about it.
i was only able to BD because my team sucked ass: because they were senselessly throwing themselves away for no fucking reason, i was given enough time to BD and salvage some of our deaths by taking down a tower or rax. the net gain was shitty as hell, even negative, maybe.
there's no reason why BD should be illegal when it's so. fucking. cheap. to. counter. it. just use some of your "9000 cs" to buy some wards or TPs, geez.
Technically there is no counter. Only way is to prevent it, by placing the wards, which gota be done in advance. I just think its gay that people BD on lane towers.
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On July 15 2008 05:35 Chewits wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2008 03:58 paper wrote:
think about it.
i was only able to BD because my team sucked ass: because they were senselessly throwing themselves away for no fucking reason, i was given enough time to BD and salvage some of our deaths by taking down a tower or rax. the net gain was shitty as hell, even negative, maybe.
there's no reason why BD should be illegal when it's so. fucking. cheap. to. counter. it. just use some of your "9000 cs" to buy some wards or TPs, geez. Technically there is no counter. Only way is to prevent it, by placing the wards, which gota be done in advance. I just think its gay that people BD on lane towers.
holy shit, really? no counter? at all? i hate to be an ass but here are two clues:
1. 135 gold
2. building becomes invincible
and you should have one of these anyway
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one? more like 2, how else do you get back to town if you port to some random tower x.x
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TP Doesn't stop them from chipping away some life from your tower everytime. It might even slow down your push so that they can get back in time.
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if the hero can chip away a significant portion of the tower, game should be (nearly) over anyway.
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Northern Ireland1200 Posts
What I mean is, its a pre-empt to a BD.
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im fine with the standard, backdooring is allowed if tower is below 10% health, otherwise no go rule. And I mean although I'm a pretty ethical gamer, there have been times when I might've backdoored raxes with ursa when the other team was pushing and we were getting handled from three fronts. Only in pubs though ofc.
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Maybe I overestimated TL dota inhouses but I figured by now there would be some sort of house rules in place, I honestly didn't expect to be this many posts about backdooring. It's a very simple issue.
Deniable towers = Equal opportunity for either team; applies to every tower but base towers. [Arguable, here is where house rules or tournament rules usually take precedence. It's either all towers or all but base towers.]
Not a backdoor if enemy creeps were alive[in your team's base] in any lane at time of enemy hero's arrival. So this means if one hero were to push mid with his creeps, even after they died he could switch lanes and hit other lane's tower/rax.
As for the 1 hero going to the other team's base when the other team is pushing as a team. That point of the game it's obviously desperation mode and I don't see how anyone can blame that 1 person [ the carry ] for trying to win the game for his team. You have 5 people who should have tp whether it's travels or scroll at that point. [ If this were illegal we'd never have games were teams were down rax yet came back to win. ] Some of the most exciting replays came from 1-2 heroes being able to take down the other teams rax fast while having rax down themselves.
This means if all your base towers have 100% hp and rax are invulnerable, but 1 hero on the other team is able to take down all of them [ number of attempts is unimportant ] its not him being ' cheap ' it's your team not being able to coordinate. Also keep in mind towers are invulnerable until the towers before them in the lane are destroyed, hence why I believe backdooring is a issue that doesn't need much discussion. Rules similar to what I described are used in IHCS and mYm pride tournaments.
For reference:
There are Outer towers, Inner Towers, Base towers and Throne/Tree towers.
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I think it should be illegal in pub games, or our inhouses, etc.
Why? Well, sometimes there are games where a team loses one side (or even two) and then defend A LOT (30-40 minutes?) and start to crawl back in the game.
Say 2 sides are dead for team A, both of Team A's carries just finished killing 4/5 of team B, and are pushing mid. Team B's only left hero backdoors straight to throne, kills the weaker hero of team A left defending and FORCES one of the carries to come back (at least). This buys enough time for some of the heroes on team B to revive and save their buildings/tower/throne/tree.
This is acceptable in a tournament, but just downright gay in pub games where after 70-80-90 minutes of fighting fair you can't win because your carry(s) constantly have to tp back to save their throne from backdooring and thus are unable to push. Someone like furion could easily force a void to tp back home over and over again.
In tournaments and CWs, this should be an issue that players have to take into consideration when picking the heroes and such, but in pubs it should be illegal. That's my two cents.
Also this is extra-annoying when you're coming back in a 4v5 formation and they're using their superior numbers to backdoor. Just gay.
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yea but what im talking about is there are no creeps in enemy base, all the creeps are close to our base and the other team is pushing, however the enemy's inner tower is down so I went there and destroyed the raxes. That's backdoor right.
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Majority of tournaments actually don't allow backdooring bases.
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It doesn't matter.
House rules are already in place in my games. It is banned. If they wish to unban it, I will make them regret that choice and it will soon be banned again.
A new rule that should be in place: You are not allowed to blame your team when you are not performing your role as well as you should be either. The scores that game at 50 minutes were:
22-32 for scourge.
Sentinel:
Testie 12-3 (1)Storm Panda
Meepo 2-13 (6)
Void 1-4 (7) (though he was useful)
JianFei 3-2 (11) (ES, but he was shaping the battlefield and raping balls).
Medusa 2-13 (7)
Scourge team:
Zap 8-3 (8 assists)Necro
Uncle 10-2 (9 assists) Leshrac
Ryugie 2-6 (7 assists) Naga
Kelfion 6-6 (11 assists) Skeleton
Riki 5-4 (6 assists) Magnus
Your team was outplaying us and working as a team ganking in groups for the entire game, and they all had items. (Whereas only 3 of us had items). Storm/Void/ES Our team clearly had the worst 2 players. I say this for the simple reason that you should not blame your team members when from those scores it is obvious they were not at fault.
FFS 2 of their deaths were to neutrals, and meepo died to roshan and gave you guys a free aegis... --;
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Scores mean shit? I basically single-handedly pushed every lane that was pushed. While they were jacking each other off and throwing themselves to you one by one, I was doing all I could, i.e. backdooring while they were fucking up. Note that people with the highest scores are those with burst damage and that net or moving to where void/panda might jump to instead of attacking does no damage = no kills or assists (ROFLROFR!11SCORE=EVERYTHINGTHOUGHLOLZ).
Our only DPS was magnus who would use his ult to KS something that was already dead. Kelfion died too much to carry, and I recall necro using his ult to solely KS.
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backdooring is gay. thats why they dont allow it in tournaments. im so used to the way to push along with creeps even when my team is winning and backdooring is easy.
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- You are not allowed to attack any tower on the map without creep support.
- You have to enter the base with creeps. As soon as you enter the base with creeps, the complete base is allowed to be destroyed.
- As long as there were creeps in base on the lane you entered , you are allowed to keep attacking even if they die. If you leave the base at this moment you need to have new creeps in the next attack.
- If a tower is denyable (below 10% HP) and is not a base tower, backdooring rules do not apply.
DEFINITIONS : Creeps "Enter the base" when they are upslope on their way into the base.
Creepsupport : The creeps are within 600 Range
-If a players is found guilty of backdooring a lvl 1/2 tower, they will recieve a personal warning
-If a team is found guilty of backdooring a lvl 3 tower/rax, the result will be submitted in favor of the opposing team.
IHCS rules. If you're unfamiliar with IHCS it's where all the pros you see in replays play on a daily basis.
But it seems like Testie is your main host and he has house rules on lock which is fine. If you don't like it get another host or don't play with TL anymore?
I won't comment specifically on the score or game posted since I wasn't involved. However I agree with both, if you aren't fulfilling your role its best to stfu and play or if the game is over just go over the game and fix what you did wrong. Also kills:death usually means nothing unless it's a unusually high number. Assists give more info about how that person played, although even then it could just have been one attack. Assists are tricky as it is, even if there was a minimum damage requirement there would be situations where 1 hit would definitely be considered an assist.
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EPT
