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Ack has a lot to say for never playing with us :\
1. Testie isn't the only host, i.e. any one of us could have hosted that game, which means that there are no concrete rules in place. However, given the history of TL DotA, backdoor has been acceptable in most games. I don't know why everyone gives Testie so much credit for anything when IHs don't happen without 10 unique people.
2. Being able to attack the entire base once you get in the base and being unable backdoor secondary or tertiary towers without creeps once the first towers are down is so contradictory that I don't even want to bother arguing that point. If you don't see the contradiction, don't bother replying to this post.
3. TL != IHCS. no wai.
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Yeah...I guess I was posting because I was bored and felt like I could contribute to the discussion somewhat.
1. Sounds good. If you know ahead of time there's gonna be no backdoor rules in Testie's games then don't play on his host.
2. I'm guessing the contradiction is: In case 1 you're able to attack things with full hp legally whereas case 2 you're unable to attack things with full hp legally. I guess I won't argue this either, I'm not saying its right or wrong. It's the IHCS rules and generally what I have always played by through natural progression of inhouses with friends.
3. I know, I was posting it for johnmaster and ter13 who seem to think:
On July 16 2008 00:02 terr13 wrote:
Majority of tournaments actually don't allow backdooring bases.
On July 16 2008 05:38 johnmaster wrote:
backdooring is gay. thats why they dont allow it in tournaments. im so used to the way to push along with creeps even when my team is winning and backdooring is easy.
MYM PDL rules:
Creep skipping is not allowed, meaning you may not attack the enemies building without creep support. If you reached the building with creeps you are though allowed to continue attacking it even if the creeps are killed. If you reached the opponents base together with allied creeps, you may attack all buildings, and you do not have to cancel your attack if your creeps have been killed.
I guess I'll stop posting in this unless something more general comes up...sorry for the misunderstanding, paper.
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If you play in my game, it's banned. It's been generally accepted that it's been banned in my games for some time now.
Ask the host if it's banned and odds are it will be banned.
If you host, sure, allow it.
So, when JF / Devaz host, it may be banned as well.
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@Ack
I mean to say that just because he's host doesn't mean it's only his rules, given everyone's personal preference. The poll clearly advocates backdooring, and even if the entire pro-BDers were on one side, at least one person on the other side would also support BD.
You can even go as far as to say that because he's host, his vote is null and void because he has the far superior advantage of zero delay, which I'd rather have over the minuscule likelihood that I'll be BDing in the game. -_-
@Testie
You're the only host who seems to have a problem with it -_-
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And you were in my host... disobeyin' mah long ago set rulez.
Most people we play with think it's gay to my knowledge.
I don't have a problem with it, as I said. It's a general rule applied to our games with very sound reasoning as we talked about it before.
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... iirc you called me a cuntfagbitch or something of the like when i took down a rax :'(
i cried that night
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I only hurt you because I love you =(
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On July 16 2008 09:39 MYM.Testie wrote:
I only hurt you because I love you =(
Love hurts right?.
I wish I could play with you guys, but since my internet isn't the best, I think I would just only lag the game for almost all the people on it  .
What a shame, well, share the reps ^^;
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u can always try it funkie (what happened to the capital K?)
if it's not too bad, you can still play! i mean, darkcell still plays, right >_>
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Playing "fair"?
This isn't just about backdoor any more 
If the game mechanics allow it, it's fair game. If it wasn't intended, it should be fixed.... by the developers. So that players can't do it.
I'm not including memory modifying processes like maphack in the "allowed by game mechanics" group. It's possible to obsfucate it, but impossible to block maphack if the user with physical access to the machine wants to.
Anyways, complaining that some strategy isn't "fair" because it beat you is... well, that's the noob mindset. Ever play Risk? Are you the type of player that quits the game and is never ever bestest friends ever again with the guy that backstabbed you in the game despite his promises?
It's not fair to yourself to not do everything possible to try and win. The limits are imposed by the game; the gamer tries to break them, and to crush his opponent any way possible. Why do people cheer when pros use "gay" and "unfair" tactics like dropping behind mineral lines?
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ares where have you been!!
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If the game mechanics allow it, it's fair game. If it wasn't intended, it should be fixed.... by the developers. So that players can't do it. So then bitch to icefrog. Pooling was allowed until... what, 2 months ago?
Was it fair then, and completely unfair now? Developers don't determine what's acceptable in the community; Players do that. Backdooring makes the game ridiculously boring, period.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
On July 16 2008 15:29 L wrote:Show nested quote +If the game mechanics allow it, it's fair game. If it wasn't intended, it should be fixed.... by the developers. So that players can't do it. So then bitch to icefrog. Pooling was allowed until... what, 2 months ago? Was it fair then, and completely unfair now? Developers don't determine what's acceptable in the community; Players do that. Backdooring makes the game ridiculously boring, period.
That's an opinion, there for, not "period". Even when I get backdoor'd, after the inital frustration I still think "wow, that was a fun game". Backdooring isn't as easy as some people are making it sound. It requires certain situations that are hard to come by.
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Korean pubs are ridiculously boring then, right?
This reminds me of old counter-strike: "Campers are lame. Let's ban camping." "Automatic shotgun is overpowered. Let's ban it." "Camping the planted C4 is super-lame! Let's ban those fuckers." "You heard me and shot me through the wall. I think that's cheating. No shooting through walls!" Silly, isn't it? The gameflow is built on these basic, primitive strategies and their counters and the counters to those counters ad nauseum. Once TL dota matures (I'm hoping it will), such strategies will disappear on their own as the players learn how weak they are.
Being what I am, I have explored item pooling. It's not imbalanced, it's not even good. I'd call it unfair in the sense that the people pooling their money are cheating themselves of a stronger team; surely not what you had in mind. Some people perceive it to be, so Icefrog went ahead and made it harder to so something that doesn't work well anyways.
Games like dota are built so that the players have a certain, definite, and attainable goal. The rules restrict what they can do. It's up to them to find the limits and optimal strategies. Dota is fun because there are so many ways to go about breaking the other ancient. Backdooring isn't superior, it's not necessarily boring. It adds more complexity to the gameplay and planning. Being able to tell what's going on by seeing how many greed blobs compared to red blobs there are is what I'd call boring.
In comparison, open-ended "games" like some MMOs (I'm thinking specifically of Second Life and the Sims) don't have such definite goals and restrictions, and since social interaction is their main function, the players determine what is acceptable.
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On July 16 2008 15:29 L wrote:Show nested quote +If the game mechanics allow it, it's fair game. If it wasn't intended, it should be fixed.... by the developers. So that players can't do it. So then bitch to icefrog. Pooling was allowed until... what, 2 months ago? Was it fair then, and completely unfair now? Developers don't determine what's acceptable in the community; Players do that. Backdooring makes the game ridiculously boring, period.
Games that take over 50 minutes are ridiculously boring. Backdoor solves that by making the game more dynamic. You guys are seriously making out backdoor to be some unstoppable strategy that only the desperate scum would ever use. Honestly, just try it and see how difficult it is against a competent team.
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Reminds me of the teleporting Tanya trick in vanilla Red Alert: Train a Tanya, pause it at near full, build a rax, pause it a near full, get Cronosphere (the teleporting shit) and the vehicle that turns into a structure, TP the vehicle into the opponent's base with Chronosphere, deploy it into a building, deploy the rax, select it as your primary, and resume Tanya. Tanya jumps out, proceeds to C4 the enemy base (which takes about 1 second to destroy a building with no cooltime).
IMBA!
Except that for 1/4 the cost of all that shit, and in 1/10 of the time, you could build a couple of turrets in your base that would rape her as soon as she came out.
People would complain and "ban" this strategy instead of using common sense, scouting every so often, and building the (ridiculously cheap) counter. I don't think they ever got better.
Which is the point, I guess. There shouldn't be anything the opponent does or can do that makes it so that you can't do something about it. I'd say there's a problem with the game design if there was such a thing, but as far as I know, there isn't in dota. Backdooring isn't unstoppable, stopping it doesn't make the game boring (seriously, take a minute or two out of a 30-90 minute long game), trying to backdoor and stopping a backdoor don't take ridiculous amounts of skill, nor are they blindly mechanical actions.
Not knowing how to counter it isn't a good reason to change the game, when it is known that a counter exists. Get better at the game.
Let's ban denying. It's bad manners, and clearly slows down the game. (Seriously, I heard this too before.)
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Too many wordy posts. I just wrote a 3 page essay and deleted it all deciding I would condense it:
-Games that go over 50 minutes are not boring. (The most epic games are back and forth games where the pressure is on everyone to not fuck up as the game hangs in the balance).
-Backdooring is banned in my games, why are we still talking about this? I stated my reasons.
-Circular conversations suck.
-If majority rule wants it, ->in the current game at hand<-, of course it can be allowed. But if majority rule is against it, accept the rule.
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Backdoor solves that by making the game more dynamic. You guys are seriously making out backdoor to be some unstoppable strategy that only the desperate scum would ever use. Honestly, just try it and see how difficult it is against a competent team. Its not unstoppable, but don't pretend its difficult.
Reminds me of the teleporting Tanya trick in vanilla Red Alert So you've shown that there are times when its just the community whining and not upping their game, but backdooring isn't new, it isn't unfleshed out. Its just a ridiculous way to play dota. Nearly every league, from the most casual to the most competitive have rules limiting or eliminating backdooring. I can name plenty of games wherein user defined limits are respected; most fighting games which contain a ridiculous boss character, for instance, aren't allowed. In dota, the previous example i gave is pretty clearcut too:
Pooling was never allowed. Ever. For you to argue that it was stoppable because you now had an easy, itemless target was ludicrist, because you'd have an AM, lycan, void, whatever, with 4 level 4 items, a bkb and boots raping your entire team.
So the question isn't whether or not community consensus is valid or sufficient to change gameplay (it is.). Its whether or not backdooring itself merits such censure. Many people here believe it does, and many large events do as well. Whether or not a counter exists is irrelevant; its whether or not the counter is effective and without a massive cost of opportunity. All your examples basically admit that the moment shit gets backdoored, you need to have 400 or so gold worth of consumables on you + you need to stop whatever push you're doing if you head back, for what's likely to be a lack of a kill, a damaged tower/rax and a hero waiting in your forest waiting to finish the job the moment the push starts up again.
People know you put up wards vs. invis and get tp scrolls. That's not difficult to do. The issue is more that without some form of ridiculously long ranged disable, you'll likely end up tping back, stopping your push and getting worn down slowly by virtue of attrition against your tower because its ridiculously hard to kill some heroes. This doesn't speed up games. In any game that you'd win 'faster' via backdooring, a 5 man push or 2 concurrent lane pushes would end the game faster, except if you were up against a massive aoe combo.
Let's ban denying. It's bad manners, and clearly slows down the game. (Seriously, I heard this too before.) Denying used to prevent 100% of the xp from reaching opponents. It was changed into an acceptable form by removing a static amount of xp per kill, and graded so that typically weaker last hitting characters (ie, the entire group of melee heroes) would be less affected by the removed xp. Clearly you know this, but that's a pretty concrete example of something being too effective with too low an opportunity cost.
Edit: Tastie beat me by a minutes Q_Q
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EPT
