EPTEdit:
Play whatever suits you when you start out, there's really no "easier" or "harder" hero.
[HoN/DotA] Let's Play~!! - Page 1464
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
Edit: Play whatever suits you when you start out, there's really no "easier" or "harder" hero. | ||
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NotJack
United States737 Posts
On August 07 2011 10:25 Judicator wrote: Really, there aren't any easier or harder heroes to play. That's a giant misnomer, it's a matter of how much responsibility is placed on you. Mechanical execution can be overcome through practice, but there's no way of alleviating what you need to do. I'm only saying it to help new players, that kind of statement doesn't do any good, and it's definitely untrue. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On August 07 2011 10:28 NotJack wrote: I'm only saying it to help new players, that kind of statement doesn't do any good, and it's definitely untrue. You are making the assumption that you know what the new player is familiar/comfortable with. That statement I made applies to all levels, and how the hell do you compare "difficulty"? Like I find Chen easy to play, I find Shadow Fiend hard to play, I am sure other people have different opinions on that. Like this kind of naming is akin to calling a hero bad or good. | ||
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NotJack
United States737 Posts
The easiest way to tell how hard a hero is is by seeing what percentage of people are good at that hero, which is why heroes like sf and sk are hard to play and heroes like chen and lich are easy. Your viewpoint is slightly understandable from a strictly HoN player, but how can you play dota and think that meepo, invoker, aa, tc, harbinger, ymir, kotl, sd, and countless other heroes are comparable in difficulty to some of the easier heroes? I don't care how comfortable you are at meepo, leoric's easier to play. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On August 07 2011 10:41 NotJack wrote: When someone's new they don't know what they're comfortable with, I guess you just go with the hero you think is prettiest? The easiest way to tell how hard a hero is is by seeing what percentage of people are good at that hero, which is with heroes like sf and sk are hard to play and heroes like chen and lich are easy. Your viewpoint is slightly understandable from a strictly HoN player, but how can you play dota and think that meepo, invoker, aa, tc, harbinger, ymir, kotl, sd, and countless other heroes are comparable in difficulty to some of the easier heroes? I don't care how comfortable you are at meepo, leoric's easier to play. The player themselves know, you as not-the-player do not. Difference between telling someone what is good/hard/bad/easy/simple/complicated/etc. and having them come to the conclusion which may or may not be the same as yours is an important distinction  Hard/easy/bad/good isn't up to others to decide, it's up to the player. It's incredibly arrogant to say that you know what's best for a player. The general consensus doesn't mean diddly squat, because said player isn't a fucking survey/poll/opinion. Edit: If you think I am HoN player, that's hilarious. I actually have exactly 3 games to my name on HoN...back in Beta and one of them was a leave. ROFL. The only times I jump across the titles is when the topic in question is game independent, which is the case here. | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On August 07 2011 10:41 NotJack wrote: When someone's new they don't know what they're comfortable with, I guess you just go with the hero you think is prettiest? The easiest way to tell how hard a hero is is by seeing what percentage of people are good at that hero, which is with heroes like sf and sk are hard to play and heroes like chen and lich are easy. Your viewpoint is slightly understandable from a strictly HoN player, but how can you play dota and think that meepo, invoker, aa, tc, harbinger, ymir, kotl, sd, and countless other heroes are comparable in difficulty to some of the easier heroes? I don't care how comfortable you are at meepo, leoric's easier to play. it doesnt matter. people shouldnt be thinking about the difficulty of dota from a mechanical sense. if you do you're probably bad, no joke. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
Edit: For the record, I picked Visage as my first hero to learn because I thought he looked interesting and literally because he was flying rofl. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On August 07 2011 09:12 Judicator wrote: You're giving too much credit to newbies. Anyways, when I started playing I played Visage (old), Bane Elemental and Venomancer. Silencer and Sand King were my first competitive level heroes. I am obviously talking about DotA, but again you're giving newbies too much credit, the only way said newbie will learn all of the things you referred to is by being taught, not through trial and error. I do think its possible to learn from trial and error as long as you think about why some situation went ass up... You are right though that this takes a thought process most people dont use when they play games. | ||
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NotJack
United States737 Posts
On August 07 2011 10:49 Judicator wrote: The player themselves know, you as not-the-player do not. Difference between telling someone what is good/hard/bad/easy/simple/complicated/etc. and having them come to the conclusion which may or may not be the same as yours is an important distinction Hard/easy/bad/good isn't up to others to decide, it's up to the player. It's incredibly arrogant to say that you know what's best for a player. The general consensus doesn't mean diddly squat, because said player isn't a fucking survey/poll/opinion. Edit: If you think I am HoN player, that's hilarious. I actually have exactly 3 games to my name on HoN...back in Beta and one of them was a leave. ROFL. The only times I jump across the titles is when the topic in question is game independent, which is the case here. Me saying your viewpoint makes sense from a HoN player isn't me saying I think you're a HoN player. Reading comprehension. Also you ignored my point that new players don't know what the heroes do, so they ask people who do what the easiest heroes are. This really is ridiculous, I'm trying to make sure new players aren't being misguided and I get people who act like every hero takes the same mechanics to play. At least you pointed out that it's your opinion so it's okay to be wrong. And as bad ass as I'm sure you both are, if you've mastered the mechanics in DoTa, you should be in MyM. Oh wait they aren't good enough, as I remember Maelk saying in an interview that Chinese players know many more tricks in laning that he has to learn. What are the chances I'm talking with two of the best DoTa players in the world!!! On August 07 2011 10:52 Judicator wrote: For the record, I picked Visage as my first hero to learn because I thought he looked interesting and literally because he was flying rofl. Yeah lol that's pretty much all the thought process I gave, and then I went to Tinker because lasers are cool. That said when someone is directly asking for experienced opinion, it's a douchey thing to say that all heroes are equal and not offer any more help than that. | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
On August 07 2011 09:12 BurningSera wrote: nah i dont think mq is a very easy hero either, but out of all the agi heroes in hon, she is imo the most nooby friendly agi. why? simple, all you need to worry is 2 buttons QR (and make suitable items for her). also she is not that kind of (very hard) carry so a dual lane is not a huge problem (remember these are >=1500 games). is actually one button Q, even complete newbie know you dont simply use ulti i guess. i still maintain the most noob friendly agi is andro | ||
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Alaron
United States225 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
My point is that simply, whether a hero is hard or easy isn't up to the person telling you that a hero is hard or easy. Because by your argument, then there shouldn't be any hero specialists. Also if you would think about my post for a second, I am also making the point that the question new players should be asking isn't whether something is easy or hard and we as more experienced players are not in the position to answer that question. Therefore, making that question a completely worthless one. Rofl at your last paragraph, mastering mechanics is basic stuff like low level stuff, but glad your mind is blown by that. Edit: I am not saying not giving them a straight answer, in fact the answer I gave when people take up DotA is simply: "Pick whatever you think looks good". Then I give them the run through on what to expect if I am in the game with them. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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NotJack
United States737 Posts
On August 07 2011 11:09 Judicator wrote: You're right I misread your HoN point. Point taken. My point is that simply, whether a hero is hard or easy isn't up to the person telling you that a hero is hard or easy. Because by your argument, then there shouldn't be any hero specialists. Also if you would think about my post for a second, I am also making the point that the question new players should be asking isn't whether something is easy or hard and we as more experienced players are not in the position to answer that question. Therefore, making that question a completely worthless one. Rofl at your last paragraph, mastering mechanics is basic stuff like low level stuff, but glad your mind is blown by that. I guess I see mechanics as a lot more than being bad at last hitting. The point of picking an easy hero is to learn the game while not being useless on void or something. You aren't going to devote your first games to clockwerk and learn how to play him just because you learn his abilities, you need to learn everything about the game, and playing an easy character makes it easier to focus on those things. Also I don't see why you're talking about specializing with a hero, when we're talking about new heroes. Once again, through my extraordinary level of experience and extensive research to develop detailed algorithms, have found that Leoric is easier than Meepo. This whole argument stems from someone directly asking what the best entry HoN hero is, and me saying Magmus isn't it, so what you're saying now isn't even relevant. | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On August 07 2011 11:12 Torte de Lini wrote: The old razer was the best starter hero imo ): old shadow assassin was death ward and sit back relax | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On August 07 2011 11:15 NotJack wrote: I guess I see mechanics as a lot more than being bad at last hitting. The point of picking an easy hero is to learn the game while not being useless on void or something. You aren't going to devote your first games to clockwerk and learn how to play him just because you learn his abilities, you need to learn everything about the game, and playing an easy character makes it easier to focus on those things. Also I don't see why you're talking about specializing with a hero, when we're talking about new heroes. Once again, through my extraordinary level of experience and extensive research to develop detailed algorithms, have found that Leoric is easier than Meepo. Lessons learned are more useful than being effective the first few games. The problem isn't being useless on Void, the problem is not realizing why you were bad on Void. I am talking about specializations because by your train of thought, there wouldn't be any hero specialists. Again, how is Skeleton King easier than Meepo for a new player? Better yet, how do you know how a player will react to the capabilities/limitations of the hero? Also you do realize the other mechanics you are referring to are hero independent right? Like if your situational awareness disappears because you're playing another hero, then you are some kind of special/bad. Edit: There aren't entry heroes, because you aren't playing high level games in the first place. You are playing for the sake of learning and to say that one hero is easier to learn is to say you know how a new player will react to it when said player has nothing to compare the hero to. | ||
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NotJack
United States737 Posts
On August 07 2011 11:29 Judicator wrote: Lessons learned are more useful than being effective the first few games. The problem isn't being useless on Void, the problem is not realizing why you were bad on Void. I am talking about specializations because by your train of thought, there wouldn't be any hero specialists. Again, how is Skeleton King easier than Meepo for a new player? Better yet, how do you know how a player will react to the capabilities/limitations of the hero? Also you do realize the other mechanics you are referring to are hero independent right? Like if your situational awareness disappears because you're playing another hero, then you are some kind of special/bad. Edit: There aren't entry heroes, because you aren't playing high level games in the first place. You are playing for the sake of learning and to say that one hero is easier to learn is to say you know how a new player will react to it when said player has nothing to compare the hero to. I mean there's not much to say. I'm assuming you're above average at Dota, and you're legitimately saying you can learn just as fast playing a hard carry every game, and you are actually saying a new player could play meepo as well as leoric (here's an hint, a new player that presses T on Leroic is doing his job, a new player that isn't controlling four squishy heroes on meepo isn't doing his job; a new player wouldn't even know tp's are good, automatically making meepo harder). Tough to respond to this man. "I am talking about specializations because by your train of thought, there wouldn't be any hero specialists." I mean that's exactly what you said before lol, even if I didn't understand what you were saying, how would that help? Such a weird discussion. I don't know where you got that awareness would disappear depending on what hero you're playing, but then again most of what you're saying now is pretty messed up. Every time you post you edit some random idea you just thought of trying to excuse your last few posts. The fact that you aren't playing pros has nothing to do with learning the basics of the game, and once again, I'm good and smart enough to know which heroes are easier and better for beginners, you might not be. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
Every time you post, you reiterate the same argument I refuted the first time. At this point, we're simply not going come to an agreement at any point. I just going to say this, how you approach the game will determine how well you play later on. Going into the game with the mindset of easy and hard heroes, by someone else's definitions, is only going to stunt your growth. You have to figure out what kind of player you are and what heroes work for you. Try things and then ask yourself why things work and don't work at particular times. Guides and advice are only guidelines regardless of who gives them. Mechanics will come with game time, mindsets will set your ultimate skill level. And NotJack, the problem is that you aren't playing with pros or high skills right away when you first start. If you can't grasp that problem of low level games teaching you the wrong things, then there's nothing left to say. | ||
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NotJack
United States737 Posts
On August 07 2011 11:58 Judicator wrote: If you say so. If you think hitting T on SK is all it takes to play effectively, then there's nothing more to say. Every time you post, you reiterate the same argument I refuted the first time. At this point, we're simply not going come to an agreement at any point. I just going to say this, how you approach the game will determine how well you play later on. Going into the game with the mindset of easy and hard heroes, by someone else's definitions, is only going to stunt your growth. You have to figure out what kind of player you are and what heroes work for you. Try things and then ask yourself why things work and don't work at particular times. Guides and advice are only guidelines regardless of who gives them. Mechanics will come with game time, mindsets will set your ultimate skill level. And NotJack, the problem is that you aren't playing with pros or high skills right away when you first start. If you can't grasp that problem of low level games teaching you the wrong things, then there's nothing left to say. You seriously can't read, all of your posts are based upon comprehension mistakes. Hitting T on sk is doing a better job then someone who can't play 4 heroes on meepo. I play with pros in HoN and have in Dota, which is where I forge my opinions. I don't consider it hard to play with pros as many people who do aren't very good and don't have good understandings of the game, funny you assumed I didn't, says a lot about who you play with. I just wanted to help new players, not get in an argument with someone who can't read and is probably not very good at the topic. Don't take my word for it, take every pro in HoN's word for it: PR and Witch are the best starting heroes. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
Or did you misinterpret this: And NotJack, the problem is that you aren't playing with pros or high skills right away when you first start. If you can't grasp that problem of low level games teaching you the wrong things, then there's nothing left to say. It's funny how you keep saying I can't read, when I already said explicitly that effectiveness isn't what is important when you are learning the game. | ||
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