EPTedit: you can think of lion's stun as an oval if it'll help to see the fact that it affects an area
[HoN/DotA] Let's Play~!! - Page 1163
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
edit: you can think of lion's stun as an oval if it'll help to see the fact that it affects an area | ||
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JohnQPublic
United States123 Posts
S2 has actually said that the make heroes/items too good so that they actually get used. It is very hard to balance things when no one touches them, and if anything can be said about hon/dota players you are more likely to get flamed trying something out of the box unless its overly good and everyone knows it. Every single item and hero has been slightly too good when they came out and nerfed after. Icefrog actually does this as well but usually he needs less tweaking after the fact. Then again, he has been at it for years now so I would hope he would have a better grasp on dotas balance. Look at the dota of 4 years ago and how it was patched and how long things stayed broken and say that S2 is really doing that bad of a job. I can honestly say that with every patch HoN actually gets closer to balanced with very little backtrack, how many games can you actually say that for? | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On February 05 2011 05:18 JohnQPublic wrote: As someone who plays both games at a decently highly level fairly often I can say that most of the people arguing against HoN as a game in this thread are speaking from ignorance. S2 has actually said that the make heroes/items too good so that they actually get used. It is very hard to balance things when no one touches them, and if anything can be said about hon/dota players you are more likely to get flamed trying something out of the box unless its overly good and everyone knows it. Every single item and hero has been slightly too good when they came out and nerfed after. Icefrog actually does this as well but usually he needs less tweaking after the fact. Then again, he has been at it for years now so I would hope he would have a better grasp on dotas balance. Look at the dota of 4 years ago and how it was patched and how long things stayed broken and say that S2 is really doing that bad of a job. I can honestly say that with every patch HoN actually gets closer to balanced with very little backtrack, how many games can you actually say that for? Missing the point. S2 shouldn't be using Icefrog's model and actually improve on it. A more accurate comparison would be is S2 doing as good of a job as Icefrog was at a similar point in time since taking over the DotA project? The answer is no, because S2 still hasn't been able to comprehend the subtleties of what makes a hero "good" versus "broken" and that shouldn't be the case. Icefrog isn't making money like S2 is making money off of HoN. There's a difference between slightly too good and making everything else look bad, when the heroes being released falls under both, then you failed. Stop arguing about Lina/Lion/Tiny, you guys clearly never played competitive when those heroes were at their peaks in terms of absolute autopicks except Lion. Lina's AoE stun was fucking impossible to miss and Tiny was fucking stupid with old school KotL and ES because it guaranteed a fucking kill every time Tiny/ES's skills were off of CD, now imagine that for 30 mins of a game (at the time obviously). And Lion and Lina are used now in different roles and each have different strengths, Lina is stronger than Lion mid game 9 out of 10 times with that one time being Lion hitting 11 very quickly. Also if you think that HoN is getting closer to balanced with every patch, then that does not bode well for HoN or it's community. Edit: If you guys don't care for the head of a project's behavior, I really don't know what to say. To me, DotA thrives like it does namely from community feedback and the ability of Icefrog to listen to it AS WELL AS processing it. You think Maliken if pushed would do the same? Like even in arguably the most polarized time of DotA's development (the Blink Dagger era - hate it or love it), Icefrog managed to get out of it fairly smoothly all things considered. I can't say the same for Maliken based on his attitude. On February 05 2011 05:09 JeeJee wrote: they're both aoe stuns, come again? edit: you can think of lion's stun as an oval if it'll help to see the fact that it affects an area ...Blink Dagger/somekindofintiating popular on both heroes, which hero do think will catch more heroes with their stun on initiate? It's like saying VS/SkelKing both use targeted stuns so they must be the same. Subtle differences matter. | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
jumping in the middle of an argument with unrelated stuff sure is useful | ||
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JohnQPublic
United States123 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On February 05 2011 06:13 JohnQPublic wrote: How is it possible to both think a game is awfully balanced and getting worse with each patch and yet still play it enough to have a grasp of the balance? It doesn't work that way, and that's why I always hate these arguments. Without the knowledge from actually playing the game (a lot, and at a high level) any comment on balance is nothing but baseless slander. Again missing the point, the argument was about releasing unbalanced heroes which makes the game worse (unless you really think those heroes in their original states were doing wonders for the game) and not on the state of balance for the game. There's a difference and I don't think you are distinguishing it nor do I think the whiners are either but there is one. I don't think any major titles save a few have ever regressed continually from patch to patch, otherwise nobody would play them. And you can also pose the same question to all the MMO players out there and you wouldn't get a straight and/or unified answer. Edit: I will say this though, HoN is most likely in that stage where new heroes are being pushed out while existing problems/issues (Striders for example) are more/less being ignored. That's not a bad or good thing, but the consequences of doing so depends a lot on their ability to address those same things after the fact. Although again, the question arises of why they aren't taking care of existing concerns before putting out new ones. | ||
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Dacendoran
United States825 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On February 05 2011 06:42 Dacendoran wrote: So whats the argument now against chalice, it doesn't regenerate hp anymore and only gives +3 int +3 str and returns a much smaller amount than the original item. I cant see how its overpowered maybe I'm missing something. Oops didn't mean to include Chalice as a current example. | ||
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[TYG]Transcend
679 Posts
On February 05 2011 06:12 JeeJee wrote: ah yes subtle differences like oval vs circle stuns make the skill different, but stuff like passive vs channelled ults with different effects are interchangeable jumping in the middle of an argument with unrelated stuff sure is useful Yo, not to just JUMP INTO AN ARGUMENT, but since this is more DotA than HoN related, 2 CENTS. Shinbz, oval covers like 100(?) AoE in a thin oval line, inclusive. Circle covers something like 350(425?) circle AoE inclusive. It's like dropping a ruler with paint onto a canvas versus dropping a pan with paint onto a canvas, the pan will paint a much larger area. Another thing about impale vs LSA, impale starts in front of Lion and moves forward, while LSA drops all at once. Not including the cast time/delay, minute differences. But differences nonetheless, the gradual moving forward of impale means that if you're further away, and if you have the reflexes, you can phase/blink/leap/etc away as you can see it coming toward you. LSA, like I said not including cast time/delay, once it drops, it drops everywhere in the target all at once. If you're in the area when it hits, you're hit. Impale, if you're in the area of when it drops, you can still say "lulbye". MY2CENTSBRO Also Doter tonight? | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
thanks, both you and judi just proving my point more and more ack is equating skills that are NOTHING alike in theory (tiny ult vs panda ult , dw's grasp vs pitlord's grasp, panda's cannonball vs tiny's avalanche, etc) but when i equate 2 aoe stuns, which are very similar in theory, you all point out the nuances that nevertheless make them VERY VERY different in practice logic follows that skills which are, even in theory, not very similar, are definitely going to be even MORE different in practice than lion/lina stun comparison. | ||
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
On February 04 2011 18:32 Ethenielle wrote: Okay so Maliken is a douche, no argument. Ack1027: thanks for describing HoNs method of balance and telling us IceFrog's is exactly the same, but his is vastly superior. Also thanks for telling us about balance issues IN THE FUCKING BETA, which is a while ago now(2 years, actually. But yes, HoN obviously still suffers from balance issues in the beta). Thanks, too, for making yourself look like a retard. What you're describing Blyadischa is exactly the same as you get when lagging out/losing connection to server. Playing on wireless? Either way I've never encountered getting stuck with a stable connection.. and I've played too many games. Love your argument of being good at mid and 1shot capabilities = imbalanced. The hero you're looking for is Pebbles, who existed in dota. But I guess he's fucking imbalanced too. Oh and witch slayer(Lion), Pyromancer(Lina).. they're imbalanced too. But they existed in dota! Hmm..... Pebbles needs a portal key, or at least he did, to be effective. In HoN he can get striders, making him pretty stupid. S2 heroes can do the same thing as pebbles, except they don't even need striders. e.g Fayde, Gauntlet, Myrm if played right, Damp, Bombardier can take out 70% of a person's life for 200 mana w/ boom dust + bomb, Moraxus can't combo and insta kill people, but you can easily 2v1 w/ axes and your null ability. The only other hero outside of the ones I've listed close to being able to combo people without them being able to do anything is Doctor Repulsor, but if you don't get items on him you don't really have the mana pool to use your positioning skill. Also here are the pathing issues I've described : | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
that new s2 hero | ||
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
All the other heroes need 500 gold for boots and can start ganking like machines. They are S2 heroes | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
might wanna re-think that | ||
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Dacendoran
United States825 Posts
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
On February 05 2011 07:50 JeeJee wrote: oh so you're saying doctor repulsor is the only hero that can combo people without them being able to do anything in all of dota? might wanna re-think that That's not what I said. I am saying that, in HoN, DR is pretty stupid if you let him get items because he can solo combo people. HoN heroes do not even need farm to combo people and get easy kills. The only reason I brought dota up was because he is from dota. | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
that pathing glitch still exists, it's the one i mentioned earlier (casting across impassable terrain) basically what happens is, game checks if you're in range to cast spell if not, it devises a path for u to walk there, then cast it aka u start walking around til u get in range of course the smart way would be not to walk to where you click but walk to where the castrange allows you to cast from (aka a few steps closer to the cliff, for example) workaround is knowing your cast ranges edit On February 05 2011 07:55 Blyadischa wrote: That's not what I said. I am saying that, in HoN, DR is pretty stupid if you let him get items because he can solo combo people. HoN heroes do not even need farm to combo people and get easy kills. The only reason I brought dota up was because he is from dota. ah yes, and of course he can't do that in dota makes sense | ||
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
On February 05 2011 07:56 JeeJee wrote: nah that pathing glitch still exists, it's the one i mentioned earlier (casting across impassable terrain) basically what happens is, game checks if you're in range to cast spell if not, it devises a path for u to walk there, then cast it aka u start walking around til u get in range of course the smart way would be not to walk to where you click but walk to where the castrange allows you to cast from (aka a few steps closer to the cliff, for example) workaround is knowing your cast ranges edit ah yes, and of course he can't do that in dota makes sense You're either trolling, or you severely lack skills in reading comprehension. If you want to make a point, please do so by explicitly stating it through statements, rather than implicitly with questions. I mentioned dota because DR is a hero that in both games needs farm to be able to gank effectively. I never said he could or could not gank effectively with farm in dota. He is in contrast with S2 made heroes, who do not need any farm at all to gank effectively. | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
On February 05 2011 08:01 Blyadischa wrote: You're either trolling, or you severely lack skills in reading comprehension. If you want to make a point, please do so by explicitly stating it through statements, rather than implicitly with questions. I mentioned dota because DR is a hero that in both games needs farm to be able to gank effectively. I never said he could or could not gank effectively with farm in dota. He is in contrast with S2 made heroes, who do not need any farm at all to gank effectively. i'm not trolling, you just make no sense you bring up a list of s2 heroes that can kill opponents without them being able to do anything then you say, the only hero that can do that is DR, but he needs items you're either implying DR is a hon hero (we've established you're not) or he's the only one that can gank without the other person being able to do anything, neither of which are true i mean, it's not like there's a dota hero that has a long-range target displacement skill, a dot-stun to lock the target in place and a damaging pbaoe slow to make sure they don't run away after, even if they don't die from the dot-stun lock and if there is, surely s/he needs something more than boots, right oh yeah, and u also mentioned that in hon dr can solo-combo people with items. see, the purpose of qualifiers such as 'in hon' is to specify that you're only referring to hon, and not anything else the reader might confuse it with, like dota. so last i checked, storm is pretty retarded with items in dota too, but clearly you are saying otherwise. just so you know where i'm coming from, since it's your imprecise statements and implications that caused all of this to begin with. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
thoughts on the team? idk who they are really, mixed opinions from my team who used to be dota players | ||
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