EPTI think creeping is an accepted method already in the games world so why not include it in RTS. Creep camps with big benefits in the middle of the map will encourage players of all levels to be active and will force natural interaction with the enemy.
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread - Page 38
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Harris1st
Germany7030 Posts
I think creeping is an accepted method already in the games world so why not include it in RTS. Creep camps with big benefits in the middle of the map will encourage players of all levels to be active and will force natural interaction with the enemy. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17185 Posts
he got his start at Activision just after Kotick resurrected the company. I thought the changes made from HotS to LotV were absolutely brilliant. The game kinda moved more towards a C&C//Fast&Fluid RTS. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1601 Posts
On July 04 2023 16:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote: pretty cool interview of Tim Morten. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v0yo5AuB50 he got his start at Activision just after Kotick resurrected the company. I thought the changes made from HotS to LotV were absolutely brilliant. The game kinda moved more towards a C&C//Fast&Fluid RTS. Those changes were pre-planned implementation to sell everyone SC2 for 180 dollars. I'm unsure of what changes you thought were great perhaps they did a couple decent things, but honestly most of Activisoin-Blizzards involvement in the starcraft series has been a floundering mess IMO. New games doesn't currently look good either, but we will see. Unit use looks slow and clunky, but we will see if they change it up. | ||
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kikghjktzugh
2 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17185 Posts
On July 07 2023 05:54 NoobSkills wrote: Those changes were pre-planned implementation to sell everyone SC2 for 180 dollars. I'm unsure of what changes you thought were great perhaps they did a couple decent things, but honestly most of Activisoin-Blizzards involvement in the starcraft series has been a floundering mess IMO. New games doesn't currently look good either, but we will see. Unit use looks slow and clunky, but we will see if they change it up. Morten joined Blizzard long after SC2 was released. He was around when the # of workers were increased.. the main base resources levels were dropped and the game got started way faster than Brood War, WoL, and HotS. Because of the changes made in 2015 ... I much prefer SC2 over SC1. The Starcraft series has been great. It is really cool seeing all these amazing events this year. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1601 Posts
On July 07 2023 12:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Morten joined Blizzard long after SC2 was released. He was around when the # of workers were increased.. the main base resources levels were dropped and the game got started way faster than Brood War, WoL, and HotS. Because of the changes made in 2015 ... I much prefer SC2 over SC1. The Starcraft series has been great. It is really cool seeing all these amazing events this year. Got rid of the early game which allowed for a larger variety of play. Even though neither of us is sure he was responsible for it I am sure it was bad for pro play. Reflected clearly in the viewership where any one of the 4 broadcasts for ASL does better than the top SC2 events. | ||
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hgzerthhgf
3 Posts
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Hildegard
Germany348 Posts
On July 08 2023 05:23 NoobSkills wrote: Got rid of the early game which allowed for a larger variety of play. Even though neither of us is sure he was responsible for it I am sure it was bad for pro play. Reflected clearly in the viewership where any one of the 4 broadcasts for ASL does better than the top SC2 events. Do you really think the increased number of workers in LotV is bad for pro players? It makes build-order wins less likely because it gives the better player the opportunity to defend nearly all cheeses. I've been watching Starcraft for nearly two decades, and as much as I enjoy watching Broodwar, the start with more workers is one of the things SC:2 does better, in my humble opinion. Still, there are many ways to open the game in each of the six matchups. By the way, am I the only one that enjoys the Reaper vs. Zerglings dance? This is one of the things that I hope Stormgate will do. Create a huge number of options to open, scout and cheese. Their commitment to a huge defender's advantage worries me a bit. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17185 Posts
On July 08 2023 05:23 NoobSkills wrote: Got rid of the early game which allowed for a larger variety of play. Even though neither of us is sure he was responsible for it I am sure it was bad for pro play. Reflected clearly in the viewership where any one of the 4 broadcasts for ASL does better than the top SC2 events. and ASL is part of the Starcraft franchise which has been doing just fine since 2008 when ATVI was formed. regarding SC2... it is hard to top the "just be first" ever RTS featuring 3 diverse races and somewhat balanced game play. also SC1 is now 25 years old and SC2 is 13 old and you're still complaining about the SC franchise. I'm sure that is long term engagement for which the ex EALAers would die. How many people are sitting around in 2023 complaining about Red Alert 3 and Halo Wars? I'd say approximately zero. On July 08 2023 22:25 Hildegard wrote: Still, there are many ways to open the game in each of the six matchups. By the way, am I the only one that enjoys the Reaper vs. Zerglings dance? it is similar to the Attack Dogs// War Bear dance of Red Alert 3. It is what is possible during extreme early game fighting, scouting and counter scouting. Both are quite good within the context of what one must expect in the very early game of an RTS. It appears StormGate might have scouting units like Red Alert had. It is no surprise that a few people on the team worked on C&C games. I'm rooting hard for Stormgate. I hope its great. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On July 08 2023 22:25 Hildegard wrote: Do you really think the increased number of workers in LotV is bad for pro players? It makes build-order wins less likely because it gives the better player the opportunity to defend nearly all cheeses. I've been watching Starcraft for nearly two decades, and as much as I enjoy watching Broodwar, the start with more workers is one of the things SC:2 does better, in my humble opinion. Still, there are many ways to open the game in each of the six matchups. By the way, am I the only one that enjoys the Reaper vs. Zerglings dance? This is one of the things that I hope Stormgate will do. Create a huge number of options to open, scout and cheese. Their commitment to a huge defender's advantage worries me a bit. I think good scouting tools and being able to greed check keep a nice balance in openers. Being able to blindly defend too much goes too far in one direction. I can understand why they’d want to make too much cheesiness difficult, nothing more frustrating on ladder than getting blind cheesed and missing a scout, but making things too safe by default will make the early frame pretty monotonous | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9419 Posts
But ofc if you take the above logic to the extreme, the question then remains, why even have the classical RTS buildoff where you start with little econ and it takes a while to acquire more bases? That's a great question and it's why I will continue being sceptical of RTS-game-devs that keep looking for compromises instead of going all-in on what they actually believe creates awesome games. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On July 09 2023 04:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote: I think cheese is problematic when the luck factor is too high or it effectively negates other ways to play longer term game plans. Otherwise any potential to make attacks early on including in ways that could end the game early is great. The absence of that potential isn't great. So I'd say even all-ins are interesting if they're well balanced, not mostly luck based, not necessarily default (maybe you'd all-in after getting a few early plays) etc. Yeah if I sniff that you’re cutting corners, or I’ve played against you enough to know your tendencies, I should have ways to pull the trigger to punish that. It’s a difficult process to keep a varied and vibrant competitive RTS of limited information where luck isn’t a factor. Such a game would probably be pretty damn boring. At the other end of the scale you don’t want openers to be blind rock/paper/scissors before you can actually gain any info. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Having multiple opportunities to do things early on to gain some advantages which can pile up? Sure, that seems like a healthy choice, but it being able to outright win there and then? I see no real upside to that outside of having a huge variety in gametimes. This ofc goes back to the 'sandbox' idea i've talked about before, it's difficult to imagine how you'd make sure it cannot end the game while having still opportunity to gain small advantages if you go for something more 'cheesy', but that really depends on the overall game design. (how fast things can snowball, etc). | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1849 Posts
On July 09 2023 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't think early game cheeses which can outright end the game are necessary at all tbh, all that does is make the game more random on most levels of play, and even a little on higher level. Why is that something we want? Having multiple opportunities to do things early on to gain some advantages which can pile up? Sure, that seems like a healthy choice, but it being able to outright win there and then? I see no real upside to that outside of having a huge variety in gametimes. This ofc goes back to the 'sandbox' idea i've talked about before, it's difficult to imagine how you'd make sure it cannot end the game while having still opportunity to gain small advantages if you go for something more 'cheesy', but that really depends on the overall game design. (how fast things can snowball, etc). THANK YOU. imagine if a league game could just end in 5 minutes to some bs cheese, how tilted and upset the community would get, how many people that would cause to quit the game. The SC2 community has some weird fascination with cheese like cannon rush because its been the game for so long but its downright frustrating and straight up unfun to lose against. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On July 09 2023 23:22 CicadaSC wrote: THANK YOU. imagine if a league game could just end in 5 minutes to some bs cheese, how tilted and upset the community would get, how many people that would cause to quit the game. The SC2 community has some weird fascination with cheese like cannon rush because its been the game for so long but its downright frustrating and straight up unfun to lose against. PvR in WoL was incredibly terrible for this reason. If you roll vP, even attempting to expand was doom, and you basically needed a defensive 3 gate or a counter 4 gate build in the 4 gate wars era vZ in a standard game their eco will just murder you if you don’t set up for a fast expo, which required your first pylon to be at the natural entrance vT you had a bit more wriggle room but a bio poke is going to have a fun time if your gate and core are at the front of your natural. Good luck finding a reliable build, from your 9 pylon that can handle these 3 forks. You have to make the call before you can scout, which is the frustrating thing. This super improved latterly when Protoss could more reliably open with gate expands but just an example of frustrating interactions | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
1) It should be possible to play reasonably safe, at the expense of falling behind against greed. Playing `safe', you should come out reasonably ahead against blind cheese with similar levels of execution as your opponent. 2) It should be possible to kill / gain a substantial advantage against someone playing `greedy' with blind aggression. Playing blind aggression, you should have a reasonable window to do damage to someone who has played greedy, again assuming similar levels of execution. I think it's a bit too easy to die early in SC2. Further, I think there are some kinds of cheese that are too hard to execute against, even if you play standard / safe. However, in a reasonably dynamic game that has across-series strategy and good build variety, I think it still makes sense to have lethal cheese plays. They should just only be lethal when the opponent is either greedy, or has substantially worse execution. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
On July 09 2023 23:38 WombaT wrote: PvR in WoL was incredibly terrible for this reason. If you roll vP, even attempting to expand was doom, and you basically needed a defensive 3 gate or a counter 4 gate build in the 4 gate wars era vZ in a standard game their eco will just murder you if you don’t set up for a fast expo, which required your first pylon to be at the natural entrance vT you had a bit more wriggle room but a bio poke is going to have a fun time if your gate and core are at the front of your natural. Good luck finding a reliable build, from your 9 pylon that can handle these 3 forks. You have to make the call before you can scout, which is the frustrating thing. This super improved latterly when Protoss could more reliably open with gate expands but just an example of frustrating interactions Well this is still true though. I insta quit games vs zerg if I opened with pylon in the high ground. Sure you can technically play but you're so far behind and the zerg has so many options it's not worth it for me. Now fortunately fast expands are more viable now so vs Random I always open with pylon in the low ground, but if I forget, then it's insta lose. ___ I would love a game without shitty cheeses like cannon rush. But I don't think there can be a game without cheese. For example removing cannon rush could be made today if you make forges require cyber core, or at least cannons require it (which makes more sense thematically). But removing cheese completely is impossible Id say. How do you remove cheeses that use proxies for example? You would need to limit where you can place buildings. But even then we see proxy hatches from time to time. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17185 Posts
On July 10 2023 04:14 [Phantom] wrote: I would love a game without shitty cheeses like cannon rush. i like RTS games where, on occasion, you are fighting for your life one minute into the game. The key is to design the game so that the person on the offense has to do some awesome creative moves and tactics to put the defender in danger very early. i hate the cannon rush... but SC1 and SC2 are such great games that i just put up with it and chalk it up to being part of the game. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On July 10 2023 04:14 [Phantom] wrote: How do you remove cheeses that use proxies for example? You would need to limit where you can place buildings. But even then we see proxy hatches from time to time. These kind of things is why I think it'd be good to have larger fields of visions for most units in these games, kind of like war3 daytime vision. Alternatively other scouting, low damage options at the start that don't put you behind and let you get info on opponent build, it really depends on all the details of the early game possibilities. | ||
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