EPTDiablo IV - Page 49
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45209 Posts
On March 21 2023 04:03 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Aaaand early access is over. Will be interesting to see what changes occur in the next 4 days before the Open Beta. I wish I had time to play this coming weekend; it'll be cool to watch VODs of players trying out the Necro and Druid. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On March 20 2023 21:51 Manit0u wrote: I wonder if you can win the game with necro again. By winning the game I mean getting summons to the point where you no longer really need to click much or pay attention, you've won the game  having played the endgame beta, you will still have to click a bunch even with minions. i am not a huge fan of a necro playstyle however i enjoyed the limited time that i had with the class On March 21 2023 00:14 Excalibur_Z wrote: Yeah, health potions operate similarly to D3. Also like D3, they have separated skills into two categories: a resource generator (spammable) and a resource spender (not spammable, but more impactful). It's a little jarring if you're coming from the mana-based world of D1/D2, but it's a net positive adjustment. currently resource generators are far more important than they are in d3, but we'll see how that looks as characters get stronger. I don't hate them being incorporated into your "rotation" but i do think they slow gameplay down. obviously that is the goal with this version of the game, but having to stop and press a button you don't reeeeeeally want to press is annoying. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On March 21 2023 04:19 BluemoonSC wrote: currently resource generators are far more important than they are in d3, but we'll see how that looks as characters get stronger. I don't hate them being incorporated into your "rotation" but i do think they slow gameplay down. obviously that is the goal with this version of the game, but having to stop and press a button you don't reeeeeeally want to press is annoying. That system is the best change they made in D3 IMO. Mana pots as gameplay is obsolete now. I'm sure they'll tweak it but I didn't like how endgame made the resource generators mostly worthless. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On March 21 2023 04:37 andrewlt wrote: That system is the best change they made in D3 IMO. Mana pots as gameplay is obsolete now. I'm sure they'll tweak it but I didn't like how endgame made the resource generators mostly worthless. at least the majority of them have some ACTUALLY useful effects whereas they were early game placeholders in d3 until you sorted your resource generation | ||
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Miragee
8620 Posts
On March 21 2023 00:14 Excalibur_Z wrote: Yeah, health potions operate similarly to D3. Also like D3, they have separated skills into two categories: a resource generator (spammable) and a resource spender (not spammable, but more impactful). It's a little jarring if you're coming from the mana-based world of D1/D2, but it's a net positive adjustment. Debatable. Systems like this have a place in games, for example combo build-up in action games. However, I think in ARPGs/Hack'n'Slash they are a detriment. Same as long cool downs on attack skills, ultimate skills etc. They just break up the combat without any particular benefit such as increased enjoyment. The opposite in fact: The game forces you to press buttons you don't want to press. It actively feels bad. Contrary to that, combo build up can feel quite rewarding in itself, which makes it an intrinsicly motivating and this worthwhile "resource" management system as opposed to what we have in D3/D4, which is more of an abitrary system to slow down the game. Mana is similar in that regard btw. before anyone is going to mention this. However, the benefit of systems like that can be build planning to find work arounds. The implementation matters and D2 did a pretty poor job at this imho. Games which solved this very well imho are Path of Exile and Guild Wars among others. Lets see if D4 will offer interesting work arounds in the late game. Offering no work arounds would be a bad idea imo and also a statement for a lacking skill/item system. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On March 21 2023 05:05 Miragee wrote: Debatable. Systems like this have a place in games, for example combo build-up in action games. However, I think in ARPGs/Hack'n'Slash they are a detriment. Same as long cool downs on attack skills, ultimate skills etc. They just break up the combat without any particular benefit such as increased enjoyment. The opposite in fact: The game forces you to press buttons you don't want to press. It actively feels bad. Contrary to that, combo build up can feel quite rewarding in itself, which makes it an intrinsicly motivating and this worthwhile "resource" management system as opposed to what we have in D3/D4, which is more of an abitrary system to slow down the game. Mana is similar in that regard btw. before anyone is going to mention this. However, the benefit of systems like that can be build planning to find work arounds. The implementation matters and D2 did a pretty poor job at this imho. Games which solved this very well imho are Path of Exile and Guild Wars among others. Lets see if D4 will offer interesting work arounds in the late game. Offering no work arounds would be a bad idea imo and also a statement for a lacking skill/item system. D2's potion system as resource management is incomparable because it is simply outdated like a lot of the systems in that game. POE's resource management is incomparable because unless you're playing a mana build, you are meant to reserve basically all of your mana and it is a mini-game in of itself to balance aura reservation with ability cost. it's like comparing chess to checkers. I agree that it slows the pace of gameplay down and forces you to press buttons you don't want to press but saying it's "arbitrary" is a little disingenous when you consider most of the abilities actually add something to your build when compared to d3. I suspect we'll get used to it over time and the buttons will feel better as we gain more legendary powers and resource generation on hit/kill (can't remember if on-hit is in this game, but some affixes are unlocked at higher ilvls). at least for me, they began to influence my build, which influenced my basic and associated subskills. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On March 21 2023 04:41 BluemoonSC wrote: at least the majority of them have some ACTUALLY useful effects whereas they were early game placeholders in d3 until you sorted your resource generation That's a balancing thing. If generators can get you a spender after 2-4 uses and spenders do 2-4x the damage, then you can weave a rotation of them. If you need 5+ generators to get a spender and spenders do 10x the damage, then generators just feel awful to use. In D3, endgame legendaries and sets mostly buffed the damage of spenders while giving you more resource generation tools, thus making generators obsolete. Then enemies' hp were balanced around chars being able to use their spenders 100% of the time. For characters like a sorc, it also lowers the onscreen spam. Spenders can be flashy things like chain lightning and meteor while basic firebolt and frostbolt can be generators. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17588 Posts
On March 21 2023 08:57 andrewlt wrote: That's a balancing thing. If generators can get you a spender after 2-4 uses and spenders do 2-4x the damage, then you can weave a rotation of them. If you need 5+ generators to get a spender and spenders do 10x the damage, then generators just feel awful to use. In D3, endgame legendaries and sets mostly buffed the damage of spenders while giving you more resource generation tools, thus making generators obsolete. Then enemies' hp were balanced around chars being able to use their spenders 100% of the time. For characters like a sorc, it also lowers the onscreen spam. Spenders can be flashy things like chain lightning and meteor while basic firebolt and frostbolt can be generators. D3 isn't really a great example for good design. I've had sorc there and with Tal Rasha set meteors were falling down everywhere around me all the time doing 40+ billion damage (I wasn't even maxed) and all the spells I used I think were teleport to move faster around the map and beam for those rare cases when bosses survive one of the auto meteors. | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
One big gripe I have with D3/Immortal/D4 though is the item structure. In D2, if you got a Windforce, it was a big deal: huge damage, high-impact endgame weapon, which made it feel like a big achievement to earn. In the newer Diablo games, you could get a Windforce at level 10, then replace it with any other random item by level 15 - perhaps even a level 15 version of the same item. This strips the identity of the item name away because its sole retaining value lies in its unique affix, which you then strip out and apply to another item later on. At that point, you're no longer talking about Legendary Items, you're talking about Collected Affixes, which is so much lamer. I know why they did it this way - to preserve the eternal treadmill - but the prestige of finding a Legendary becomes so fleeting that the developers' only recourse is to make them drop more often (which they do as difficulty rises in D3/DI), which not only makes them feel less meaningful but actively annoys the player as the thrill of "Legendary drop!!!" now only occurs when it's the exact individual Legendary item that you want for your build. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2394 Posts
On March 21 2023 13:59 Excalibur_Z wrote: One big gripe I have with D3/Immortal/D4 though is the item structure. In D2, if you got a Windforce, it was a big deal: huge damage, high-impact endgame weapon, which made it feel like a big achievement to earn. In the newer Diablo games, you could get a Windforce at level 10, then replace it with any other random item by level 15 - perhaps even a level 15 version of the same item. This strips the identity of the item name away because its sole retaining value lies in its unique affix, which you then strip out and apply to another item later on. At that point, you're no longer talking about Legendary Items, you're talking about Collected Affixes, which is so much lamer. I know why they did it this way - to preserve the eternal treadmill - but the prestige of finding a Legendary becomes so fleeting that the developers' only recourse is to make them drop more often (which they do as difficulty rises in D3/DI), which not only makes them feel less meaningful but actively annoys the player as the thrill of "Legendary drop!!!" now only occurs when it's the exact individual Legendary item that you want for your build. Yes, absolutely. I think this is the kind of thing that a lot of people are less conscious of while playing but still affected by, and you've put it into words beautifully. WoW expansions have the exact same problem, and the lazy "treadmill" design was also exposed by their "numbers refactor" where they had to stop everything doing millions or billions of damage as a result of this type of design. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7023 Posts
On March 21 2023 13:59 Excalibur_Z wrote: D3 had several core design tenets that were very fun, such as the skill system. Free respecs gave you true liberty to experiment with different skill combos, and more importantly, have your skills be an extension of your gear (which you get less control over) rather than the other way around. If you picked up an item that gave +300% Fire damage, then instead of immediately throwing it away and saying "sucks that my build is Cold-based", you could simply apply different Runes to your skills so that now your Cold damage abilities dealt Fire damage; not only does your new item become a big upgrade, but you get to try out a new playstyle to support it. If your new skill set doesn't gel, you can always go back to your old item and old skills. One big gripe I have with D3/Immortal/D4 though is the item structure. In D2, if you got a Windforce, it was a big deal: huge damage, high-impact endgame weapon, which made it feel like a big achievement to earn. In the newer Diablo games, you could get a Windforce at level 10, then replace it with any other random item by level 15 - perhaps even a level 15 version of the same item. This strips the identity of the item name away because its sole retaining value lies in its unique affix, which you then strip out and apply to another item later on. At that point, you're no longer talking about Legendary Items, you're talking about Collected Affixes, which is so much lamer. I know why they did it this way - to preserve the eternal treadmill - but the prestige of finding a Legendary becomes so fleeting that the developers' only recourse is to make them drop more often (which they do as difficulty rises in D3/DI), which not only makes them feel less meaningful but actively annoys the player as the thrill of "Legendary drop!!!" now only occurs when it's the exact individual Legendary item that you want for your build. Very true. But this also meant if you wanted to do a certain build you NEEDED some very specific items. If they didn't drop for you, tough luck. Obviously these days you can trade and stuff. But I know a lot of people who play exclusively SSF | ||
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Latham
9568 Posts
On March 21 2023 13:59 Excalibur_Z wrote: D3 had several core design tenets that were very fun, such as the skill system. Free respecs gave you true liberty to experiment with different skill combos, and more importantly, have your skills be an extension of your gear (which you get less control over) rather than the other way around. If you picked up an item that gave +300% Fire damage, then instead of immediately throwing it away and saying "sucks that my build is Cold-based", you could simply apply different Runes to your skills so that now your Cold damage abilities dealt Fire damage; not only does your new item become a big upgrade, but you get to try out a new playstyle to support it. If your new skill set doesn't gel, you can always go back to your old item and old skills. One big gripe I have with D3/Immortal/D4 though is the item structure. In D2, if you got a Windforce, it was a big deal: huge damage, high-impact endgame weapon, which made it feel like a big achievement to earn. In the newer Diablo games, you could get a Windforce at level 10, then replace it with any other random item by level 15 - perhaps even a level 15 version of the same item. This strips the identity of the item name away because its sole retaining value lies in its unique affix, which you then strip out and apply to another item later on. At that point, you're no longer talking about Legendary Items, you're talking about Collected Affixes, which is so much lamer. I know why they did it this way - to preserve the eternal treadmill - but the prestige of finding a Legendary becomes so fleeting that the developers' only recourse is to make them drop more often (which they do as difficulty rises in D3/DI), which not only makes them feel less meaningful but actively annoys the player as the thrill of "Legendary drop!!!" now only occurs when it's the exact individual Legendary item that you want for your build. Pretty much, I've seen a suggestion that said that these "legendaries" should have their color changed and be renamed to Epics (so like in other games it would go common---> uncommon (magic) ----> rares ---> epics ---> legendary/unique/set (future) /runeword (future). | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5256 Posts
starts off talking a bit about his history with Diablo, shows his sorc build (hydras). then articulated some thoughts on skill / item design complexity, melee vs ranged, open world ramifications. he's pretty critical on many of the systems, but thinks it could get better down the line | ||
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Miragee
8620 Posts
On March 21 2023 05:27 BluemoonSC wrote: D2's potion system as resource management is incomparable because it is simply outdated like a lot of the systems in that game. POE's resource management is incomparable because unless you're playing a mana build, you are meant to reserve basically all of your mana and it is a mini-game in of itself to balance aura reservation with ability cost. it's like comparing chess to checkers. I agree that it slows the pace of gameplay down and forces you to press buttons you don't want to press but saying it's "arbitrary" is a little disingenous when you consider most of the abilities actually add something to your build when compared to d3. I suspect we'll get used to it over time and the buttons will feel better as we gain more legendary powers and resource generation on hit/kill (can't remember if on-hit is in this game, but some affixes are unlocked at higher ilvls). at least for me, they began to influence my build, which influenced my basic and associated subskills. Although I don't really understand why you shouldn't be able to compare those systems, I wasn't even comparing D4's system with PoE's or D2's. Maybe I should have made that clearer but I added the second paragraph to preempt critics a la "but D2 had an arbitrary resource system, too". All I was saying is that mana is a somewhat arbitrary and is in itself just a limit without much of an intrinsic value. The only comparison I drew between games with mana systems and D4 is that, imho, the success of a ressource limitation system depends on whether they can implement workarounds well or not. PoE is actually giving the player a lot of options with conversion, regen, leech, gain, cost reduction etc. Even if you conserve all or almost all of your mana for auras, you still have to solve the issue. I acknowledge that a significant portion of the player base doesn't find this enjoyable. One idea I would like for D4 if they keep the generator/spender system, is a more open approach. Don't categorise the skills beforehand but let the players modify them so they can pick the generators they want. You could add some sort of "runes" to modify them for reduced damage/aoe/etc. to turn them into generators. That way players could pick skills they like for their effects other than damage (CC, support etc.). I additions options to circumvent the whole system entirely. I just don't like the idea of being forced into a particular playstyle with each class (all of them look very similar anyways). I like giving the players heaps of options to solve a problem in a way they find in enjoyable. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On March 21 2023 12:44 Manit0u wrote: D3 isn't really a great example for good design. I've had sorc there and with Tal Rasha set meteors were falling down everywhere around me all the time doing 40+ billion damage (I wasn't even maxed) and all the spells I used I think were teleport to move faster around the map and beam for those rare cases when bosses survive one of the auto meteors. That's the point I was making. D3 had a great design but then endgame happened. No use for the generator and spender system when endgame legendaries and sets provide you free, spammable spenders and you can ignore generators entirely. On March 21 2023 18:24 Miragee wrote: Although I don't really understand why you shouldn't be able to compare those systems, I wasn't even comparing D4's system with PoE's or D2's. Maybe I should have made that clearer but I added the second paragraph to preempt critics a la "but D2 had an arbitrary resource system, too". All I was saying is that mana is a somewhat arbitrary and is in itself just a limit without much of an intrinsic value. The only comparison I drew between games with mana systems and D4 is that, imho, the success of a ressource limitation system depends on whether they can implement workarounds well or not. PoE is actually giving the player a lot of options with conversion, regen, leech, gain, cost reduction etc. Even if you conserve all or almost all of your mana for auras, you still have to solve the issue. I acknowledge that a significant portion of the player base doesn't find this enjoyable. One idea I would like for D4 if they keep the generator/spender system, is a more open approach. Don't categorise the skills beforehand but let the players modify them so they can pick the generators they want. You could add some sort of "runes" to modify them for reduced damage/aoe/etc. to turn them into spenders. That way players could pick skills they like for their effects other than damage (CC, support etc.). I additions options to circumvent the whole system entirely. I just don't like the idea of being forced into a particular playstyle with each class (all of them look very similar anyways). I like giving the players heaps of options to solve a problem in a way they find in enjoyable. Personally, I think the system works best when the generators are the more straightforward skills and the spenders are the more flashy skills. If you have skills like firebolt and meteor, frostbolt and frozen orb, charged bolt and chain lightning, it's obvious to newbies which are the generators and which are the spenders. Of course, there are spells like fireball, glacial spike and lightning as well, where you could make a case for them as both generator and spender, and I suppose these are where your suggestion has benefit. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On March 21 2023 13:59 Excalibur_Z wrote: D3 had several core design tenets that were very fun, such as the skill system. Free respecs gave you true liberty to experiment with different skill combos, and more importantly, have your skills be an extension of your gear (which you get less control over) rather than the other way around. If you picked up an item that gave +300% Fire damage, then instead of immediately throwing it away and saying "sucks that my build is Cold-based", you could simply apply different Runes to your skills so that now your Cold damage abilities dealt Fire damage; not only does your new item become a big upgrade, but you get to try out a new playstyle to support it. If your new skill set doesn't gel, you can always go back to your old item and old skills. One big gripe I have with D3/Immortal/D4 though is the item structure. In D2, if you got a Windforce, it was a big deal: huge damage, high-impact endgame weapon, which made it feel like a big achievement to earn. In the newer Diablo games, you could get a Windforce at level 10, then replace it with any other random item by level 15 - perhaps even a level 15 version of the same item. This strips the identity of the item name away because its sole retaining value lies in its unique affix, which you then strip out and apply to another item later on. At that point, you're no longer talking about Legendary Items, you're talking about Collected Affixes, which is so much lamer. I know why they did it this way - to preserve the eternal treadmill - but the prestige of finding a Legendary becomes so fleeting that the developers' only recourse is to make them drop more often (which they do as difficulty rises in D3/DI), which not only makes them feel less meaningful but actively annoys the player as the thrill of "Legendary drop!!!" now only occurs when it's the exact individual Legendary item that you want for your build. legendaries in d3/4 are straight up homogenous and not being able to properly craft gear really makes the "collection" process feel even lamer. POE legendaries are so much cooler and some are actual chase items because they offer unique properties that are so strong, sometimes it's worth taking a hit on the other affixes (IE: melding of the flesh negative resistances) or because they completely alter your gameplay (IE: not just adding an extra set of Hydras). i hope there are some really cool chase legendaries that either can't be extracted or are so good with the extra stat line(s) that they're difficult to pass up. just pray that we don't get "mandatory" sets/set bonuses. it makes knowing what you're striving for that much better but man is it boring. On March 21 2023 17:52 EchelonTee wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-l91GoAjkM starts off talking a bit about his history with Diablo, shows his sorc build (hydras). then articulated some thoughts on skill / item design complexity, melee vs ranged, open world ramifications. he's pretty critical on many of the systems, but thinks it could get better down the line just wanna preface anyone watching this video with saying that watching his stream over the weekend was very painful. he built his barb pretty incorrectly and then complained about damage - i had no problem with barb versus the dreaded spider boss folks were stuck on about. mathil didn't, either. many barbs did just fine, but suffered from traditional melee problems you'd find in any game. they could make the mobs need to be chased a little less, though. i also don't really understand his gripe with not being able to quickly assess which rares are good vs bad - you should know what affixes you want for your build, it's not rocket science to identify an item being instantly garbage. this is basically advocating for a green arrow for total power and i don't think that's a good idea. | ||
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